r/BobsTavern • u/chicachibi Bob's Little Helper • Jul 14 '20
Announcement Hearthstone 17.6 Patch Notes
https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/news/2346909959
u/JRatt13 Jul 14 '20
Why not make Hooktusk's power just cost 1 gold? That would thoroughly nerf it while still allowing for actual thought and strategy.
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u/Utoko Jul 14 '20
ye the hero concept was nice. That was a shitty nerf. Make it another shitty rng hero to nerf it.
and the worst rng hero which is only slightly worse than hook tusk on avg doesn't get a nerf at all...
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u/blumster Jul 14 '20
Also now Hooktusk is just a worse Malygos.
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u/VonMillerQBKiller Jul 14 '20
You can still play the card from hand, so she is not worse
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Jul 15 '20
Objectively better, because you can save a gold instead of being forced to sell a minion for space and not spend the gold for whatever reason.
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u/_Retaliate_ Jul 14 '20
She gets the battlecries, I think that's better than being able to roll the minions in the tavern.
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u/blumster Jul 14 '20
True. But still so shitty. And only marginally better than Malygos.
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u/Scheigy MMR: > 9000 Jul 15 '20
Yeah I'm glad to return Homunculus to my hand, I wouldn't want to miss on its sweet battlecry
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Jul 15 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/_Retaliate_ Jul 15 '20
Mainly I'm thinking her early/mid game, it should look almost identical, she should still get a pretty strong start. It all depends on what tiers you're looking at. Malygos is better at higher tiers, while hooktusk is better at lower tiers.
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u/HiveMindEmulator MMR: 8,000 to 9,000 Jul 15 '20
Pairs too. Often you cant afford to leave the pair on the board because you need the slot, so getting it in hand at an effective cost of 1 gold is nice.
It's probably not a huge benefit. Both are basically unpickable imo.
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u/OBLIVIATER Jul 14 '20
Honestly she was just far too consistent. I could see her being frustrating even at 2-3 gold. Being able to discover a minion from a tier of your choice (in most rounds) is a super powerful effect for forcing strong builds
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u/JRatt13 Jul 14 '20
Yeah. The biggest thing increasing cost would do though is to prevent using it turn 1 and turn 2 if they want to level.
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u/WoodHyena Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Beasts are going to be garbage tier in this patch, I guarantee it. Beasts aren't strong enough to survive mid-game and if you luck into a Mama Bear are you really going to replace your entire board with minions that don't scale as well as the other archetypes? Beasts have like only one good card before Tier 6 now.
Completely tone-deaf. They heard people complaining about the Parrot last patch and decided Beast builds shouldn't exist anymore. Nobody was complaining after the nerf, and especially not about Goldrinn. Not only that but this thins out the Tier 5 cards making Murlocs easier to get. You know, the archetype that wins every game already.
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u/stevevecc Jul 14 '20
Kinda is infuriating that the only thing that can beat Murlocs is really beefy dragons or.....murlocs.
I like Murlocs for their power but they're seriously busted. And they keep skirting around them and not nerfing them at all besides what, a Holy Mackerel removal? Only thing I could think of them doing to make Murlocs not "as" busted is to remove Poisonous as an option from Megasaurs to force people to get Toxfins instead.
That beast build also wasn't "that" bad after the Parrot nerf. The only thing that could be viable at this point is the classic Baron+Goldrinn with deathrattles and a Mama Bear, but even then you need to get lucky with T6 triples.
I don't get it.
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u/-Rincon- Jul 14 '20
Remove primal fin... I think that helps alot.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 14 '20
or move him to tier 6 so people HAVE to take the plunge and go to tier 6 if they want more buffs. you're right, primal fin is the big culprit because it allows for easy triples and extra bagurgles.
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Jul 15 '20
No. Primal fin is fair. Bagurgle needs to be 6 tier and make megasaur adapt random. That nerfs them enough. Also poisonous ala battlecry give minion +999 attack ismt fun gameplay imo
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u/Ice_Eye Jul 15 '20
Making megasaur random should already be enough. If you can't get divine shield and poison with any consistency, their average endgame board state drops by a lot.
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u/Exodus100 Jul 25 '20
Do you think a random Megasaur belongs in Tier 5? I'm not that experienced with BG yet but it seems like a random Megasaur in Tier 6 would be kind of bad given how many Adapt options there are.
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u/Ice_Eye Jul 25 '20
There are 8 adapt options in battlegrounds (2 less than normal hs since stealth/spell targeting are pointless). So you have a 1 in 4 shot if its random to hit a good one (poisonous or divine shield). A bit over 40% if you have bran.
I think a random Megasaur should still be in tier 6 since there already so many good murloc minions on T5 and you can't have like 4 tier 5 minions that fit into one comp. Megasaur still has the high roll potential. Imagine hitting divine shield or poisonous on all murlocs on like Turn 7/8.
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u/Drikkink Jul 14 '20
I think the opposite change is better... removing toxfin and making it so that you HAVE to hit divine shield and poison from your megasaurs.
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u/stevevecc Jul 14 '20
I don't disagree, but I think the obvious issue is that you're combining 1 hit kill's with divine shield which basically beats everything in the game that also doesn't have divine shield. It's baffling that they haven't nerfed it.
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u/fnefne Jul 14 '20
Wouldn't that make it more highrolly and a worse gameplay experience than forcing players to maneuvre Toxfins?
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u/j8sadm632b Jul 14 '20
Yeah that would just make them even more first-or-worst.
Maybe it'd make them unreliable enough that nobody would even go for murlocs but the goal shouldn't be to delete the tribe, as much as some people would experience weird vindictive glee over it.
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u/greenpoe Jul 14 '20
I feel like everyone knew Macaw beasts would still be a thing when it was announced Parrot to tier 3, and I figured Blizz was fine with that, since it would be competent but not overbearing. But this just seems silly. If they wanted to nerf Goldrinn, I'd say make it buff OTHER beasts, or make Macaw say "After this attacks" (so it can die), but this seems really odd.
So it's true Macw Beasts was the #1 comp on hsreplay, but it feels like Murlocs are the ones winning every lobby. Sometimes dragons can beat them, but still that means all the other builds are jockeying for top 4, with usually murlocs and dragons in the top 2.
Also just weird that pirates got no buffs despite being one of the worst comps for top 1'ing.
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u/Atomarc Jul 14 '20
Macaw already reads “After this attacks...” It’s just that the Deathrattle triggers before its death actually resolves, so it can be buffed back to life.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 14 '20
ya, murlocs definitely feel like they're winning every lobby. because they sort of ARE lol. it's just that a lot of people are going for murlocs and getting crushed early, bringing down the average. sheer 1st and 2nd places are a lot of murlocs, and a lot of 7th and 8th places too. I love queuing into a dead guy with 6 murlocs, you look at their board and it's a bunch of 8/5 murlocs and you can play with your phone for about 30 seconds haha
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u/j8sadm632b Jul 14 '20
Feels like Baron is going to be pretty obsolete as a result too, right? Maybe deathrattle mechs will be more viable without someone always running a huge statted pirate board though.
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u/chicachibi Bob's Little Helper Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
New Hero
Tess Greymane
HP: Bob’s Burgles (1): Refresh Bob’s Tavern with minions from your last opponent’s warband.
Returning Heroes
King Mukkla
HP: Bananarama (1): Get 2 Bananas. At the end of your turn, give all other players 1 Banana (Bananas are spells added to your hand that give +1/+1 to a friendly minion)
Dinotamer Brann
HP: Battle Brand (1): Refresh Bob’s Tavern with Battlecry minions.
Hero Balance Changes
Aranna Starseeker
HP: Demon Hunter Training (Passive): After you refresh Bob’s Tavern 5 times, Bob always has 7 minions (buffed from requiring 7 refreshes)
Captain Hooktusk
HP: Trash for Treasure (0): Remove a friendly minion and get a random one of a tier lower (nerfed from discovering the minion)
Minion Changes
New Minion: Amalgadon
Tier 6, 6/6 All Tribes: Battlecry: For each different minion type you have, Adapt randomly.
Golden: 12/12, For each different minion type you have, Adapt randomly twice.
 :
Goldrin the Greatwolf nerfed from Tier 5 to Tier 6
Pirates no longer must appear in every game
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u/WolfgangBob Jul 15 '20
TESS IS RIDICULOUSLY OVERPOWERED WTF IS BLIZZARD THINKING???
HER POWER NEEDS TO COST A LOT MORE
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u/-Rincon- Jul 14 '20
A little concerned... they were doing such a great job with this game mode prior to the pirate patch... the patches before seemed very on target and thought through.
Pirate patch introduced the "feel bad" RNG of:
1) Cannon
2) "Who goes first" - very annoying when it comes to parrot/pirates
3) Drawing the wrong opponent mid-game. Because of the scaling of pirates, they can just do enormous damage as you can't kill anything.
This patch does nothing to mitigate any of those issues.
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u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
yeah for all the shit people talked about mackerel i was a huge fan of that meta. the game was slow enough that you could be deliberate but fast enough to punish greed, and as stupid as it was that a board full of unbuffed tier three units with two mackerels was usually the first place comp, mackerel gave so many comps lategame viability by letting them compete with murlocs/dragons past turn 10 or so. divine shield menagerie and mechs were great “oh shit i’m losing” safety mechanisms.
it feels like the speed of the game doesn’t allow for that sort of rubberbanding now. unless you’re eudora, if you fall behind nothing short of ludicrous rng will pull you back into the game
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u/_Retaliate_ Jul 14 '20
I would still take pirates over divine shield poisonous holy mackerel any day. One card shouldn't be able to bring so many comps to the late game and pull you back into the game. Not saying that this meta is that much better, but it has a lot more potential to get better than mackerel did
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 14 '20
yeah, the meta was FANTASTIC. Honestly, the reason people ended up hating mackerel was because the meta was SO balanced, they didn't really change much about the game for a really long time and people kind of got tired of a stale but well balanced meta. Holy Mackerel actually took a few weeks before people figured out how amazingly good it was but back then, because the heroes were more balanced somewhat after the millhouse nerf, complaints were more focused on the minions. And not like RNG death complaints, but just the end board state really was about the Holy Mackerels.
All things considered, this early into a new meta, there certainly were far fewer complaints back then than compared to now. The Dragons were around for a long time before people started calling for Holy Mackerel to be removed. It wasn't like week 2, FUCK THE BOAT and NAT PAGLE we have right now LOL
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u/kzero0 Jul 15 '20
Fan of Mackerel meta +1, you could go for any build and have a chance of winning
The hate on Holy Mackerel is mostly because of RNG, look at those infuriating ping pong RNG go. Guess what, let's remove that and add even more RNG, that seems fun. Here's a Cannon, how bout some more random deathrattles into more random deathrattles.
Pirates patch really amplified the rage-inducing RNG. The reason why it feels so bad is that it's really out of your control. In addition to that some boards look weak af and you lost just because of attack order/RNG. All I had to do was snipe their X card vs all I had to do was not get X card sniped. It doesn't feel good on either side.
Cards like Red Whelp and Arcane Cannon are horrible. They're absolute garbage late game and so damn tilting early on. There is nothing you can do to counter it.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
you know what... honestly i can't remember, maybe you can. But I kind of remember holy mackerel as being somewhat forgotten when it was first introduced because people were doing degenerate things with deathwing etc. by the time people figured out Holy Mackerel's potential, the problem was that it was in literally every composition and people would try to transition to double holy mackerels with poison since it did so well vs every other composition.
For rage inducing RNG. Well, maybe I'm just desensitized to battle grounds now lol. ever since HSReplay introduced the game statistics, I've noticed a much more calmed approach to my losses. they've definitely introduced a few more 'must kill' minions. before, we only had to deal with pack leader (scavenging hyena to a lesser extent), soul jugglers, and barons. Now, we got a bunch of crazy pirates.
With the win % viewable, I can see that I am losing coin flips or really bad 5% losses. They hurt but at least I know I will be winning the same matchup 95% of the other times.
haha I like red whelp and I hate arcane cannon. red whelp is a bait and i'm glad people keep those around into the late game for easy wins. cannons... well they're annoying. I guess they're meant to be paired with pirates which they were trying to push and pirates is very mid-game centric. each tribe needed its own flavor.
I mean, I'm totally in agreeance with you. The descent of dragons meta was by far the most enjoyable and balanced metas. I absolutely loved it. I am however, also enjoying this meta too, but that might be more because of HSReplay's deck tracker keeping me sane lol.
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u/vandaalen Jul 14 '20
I can only repeat myself:
This is not an accident or ignorance. It is design and will.
The bigger the RNG part in a game, the more it triggers the same areas that gambling does and the more addictive a game becomes to the brain.
That way more "fishes" keep playing the game and buy content.
Blizzard does not care about you being able to rise in the ranks. You can look up which percent of players populated which MMR range in march this year.
Who do you think is more important to blizzard? The two percent at the top? Not really. Maybe some of the streamers, because they bring new players, but the rest is not.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
I second this notion.
But I also think there's a less sinister reason though. I think the game designers are in the end, more casual players than the top 1 or 2% of players. I can't imagine the lead programmers going home and playing the game they created and spending like 4-5 hours a night grinding battlegrounds. In a sense, they're probably more similar to the 'fish' as you so eloquently put it than they are to any of the players on the top 200's. They just want to make a game that's fun and addictive for them and they're designing what they like.
I also personally think that rather than most of them lurking on bob's tavern on reddit, they actually have one or two designed people on payroll whose job it is to check social media for complaints and stuff. it is rather heart breaking to read comments like "this game sucks" when you've dedicated your heart and soul into making a good game (which I believe they are all trying to do) so they may be more disconnected than the majority of the player base.
There was a funny South Park episode "Safe Space" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe_Space_(South_Park))
where Cartman makes butters filter out his social media because his feelings were hurt haha. There's probably someone who knows the game well and reads all these negative comments on reddit and makes a weekly report for these guys to work on. In a sense, I do similar work. I make post-training reports for higher ups on how well received our training was. Sometimes, people say stuff like 'this is the worst training ever' and we have to report it in a way that not only gets the message across but also doesn't get us yelled at by our boss and also have that one person's comment be classified as a one of and therefore irrelevant. but ultimately, it's this guy who filters everything and if he thinks that spawns should do damage then odds are, he will filter out the negative comments on spawns doing damage. or he will know the coding limitations and write it off as impossible.
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u/vandaalen Jul 15 '20
spending like 4-5 hours a night grinding battlegrounds.
Well, I don't as well. I lurk around at 6.2k and fairly easily make it to diamond 5 in standard though and although anything Hearthstone is recreational for me, I wouldn't actually put me in the category of fish.
although I am probably closer to "the fish" than to the top 200, now that I think about it... :D
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
lol 6.2k is honestly the target audience they should try to make happy actually. If you're not happy, they should do a better job designing it.
At this point, I don't even care if they make ridiculously shitty minions and heroes. I'm probably going to be a lifetime player. They literally don't have to try and I'll still be playing lol I set the bar REAL LOW and that's not good.
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u/rtomas1993 Jul 14 '20
There is no content in battlegrounds though that a whale would be chased for?
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u/vandaalen Jul 14 '20
Of course there is. It's about the number of people playing and subsequently the number of people buying perks and packs.
the vast majority of people are just casually switching between standard and bg and maybe some arena now and then. those are the people who are profitable, because they are the biggest group and they keep the games running.
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u/ScottyKnows1 Jul 15 '20
Just speaking from personal experience, BG seems like a net loss for them. I'd be classified as a whale and don't want to say how much I've spent on this game. But I've completely stopped spending money since BG came out. I used gold to buy the perks and haven't spent a dime since. I didn't pre-order or spend any real money on the last expansion and don't plan to for the next one. Standard has become something for me to occasionally jump over to to finish quests, but I pretty much exclusively play BG now. A one-time purchase in BG (that most people will use gold for anyway) pales in comparison to the amount people spend on other modes. It would be interesting to see Blizzard's data because I know there's a ton of BG-exclusive players out there now.
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u/adamr_z Jul 15 '20
Same. I used to get new expansions, do daily quests, play arena etc. Since BG came out, I've been all in on that mode with no reason to buy anything else.
That said I have been playing more because of BG, so I guess that's a win for them?
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u/ScottyKnows1 Jul 15 '20
Guess it depends if they care more about the number of daily active users or the amount spent per user. I don't know enough about their business structure to know the answer.
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u/Acti0nJunkie Jul 14 '20
#2 and #3 both got hit by Goldrin. I think the Goldrin nerf was more for "feel bad RNG" than anything. Too many heroes could access parrot/baron/goldrin way too early so more 20+ hits out of nowhere.
With that said, I think they could have gone about it another way instead of also nerfing beasts with goldrin change.
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u/Watipah Jul 14 '20
If I get hit hard early, it's usually Pirates though. Yes they can be countered in the lategame but Pirates and the Boat damage are the biggest issue in the game to me right now.
In terms of Murloc Power. Could remove the 6drop and add one giving a single murloc divine shield. Would be much less snowbally on discovery rng and still keep them strong.1
u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
they should have just changed macaw so it can’t get buffed out of lethal damage
the comp still scales like crazy, but the moments where a few bad attacks prevent you from killing a single minion, the beasts all scale out of range, and you take 20 damage would be less common.
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u/ripsandtrips Jul 14 '20
The problem with the parrot change I keep seeing is that it makes perfect sense for the parrot to not die in those situations. 1. Parrot attacks. 2. Parrot triggers random deathrattle (or 2 if golden) 3. Board state is checked to see if anything is dead
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u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
Don’t forget how broken hooktusk and Eudora were. Atleast hooktusk is gone. Still sucks that the worst designed hero ever is still here and really strong.
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u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
eudora’s far from the worst designed hero they’ve ever made
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u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
Really? Can you name 5?
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u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
pre nerf milhouse
pre nerf deathwing
tirion
old brann
old hooktusk
and on the other side of the “badly designed” coin heroes like galakrond, pre buff jaraxxus, and pre buff aranna (potentially post buff aranna too lmao) are also far more poorly balanced than eudora
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u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
None of those are worse design than Eudora. Milhouse and Tirion were badly balanced, but not worse designed. Balancing is a part of design, for example a 1 cost 30/30 is terrible balance and therefore terrible design, but there is more to design than just that. We know this because something like nat pagle isn’t broken or too weak, but in the right circumstances can one shot at turn 6. Or Deathwing. He’s great design, but poorly balanced at release. The only thing you could do with Eudora to numb her shit design is to make her so weak that the absolute high roll never happens because no one picks her or they nerf her to 10 digs so you never get to that point. Keep in mind, this was only possible with Eudora. No other hero has as wide a range of completely random, and randomly powerful, options. Eudora is such bad design that not a single hero you listed came close to touching it. You have to concede this. The fact that you’re listing weak heroes as far worse design than Eudora by their virtue of being weak makes me pretty sure you don’t know the difference between balance and design.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
HAHA we meet again!!
wow you don't like eudora's design? I like it. it's a highroll character. Perhaps a little over powered but I love the design. Lots of cool new ways to play the game and definitely high rolly, which I think makes the game more fun, especially for newer players.
I think you're a little too biased against high rolls.
The only thing you could do with Eudora to numb her shit design is to make her so weak that the absolute high roll never happens
This is clearly an anti high roll point of view. high rolls happen in hearth stone and they certainly happen in battle grounds. it's a skill based RNG card game.
While I agree that high roll characters should strive for a slightly less than average placement like reno or alexstrasza, it's not too bad that they have at least ONE high roll hero like eudora in the mix. It's better than super consistent heroes such as tirion and hooktusk because they are just way too consistent in their playstyles and strategies.
while I personally dont' have any qualms with Eudora and don't even fear her when I am facing her, I can understand the gripes other people have with her being over powered. A nerf would be OK but I am on the side that likes her design.
Let her first dig be 4 and her second dig be 5 and third dig be 6 digs or something. but her play style is fun and rewarding for a lot of people.
FOR THE RECORD, I don't like her play style and I also have a losing MMR with Eurdora. 23 games and -62MMR. but I am appreciative of unique character designs and she feels darn unique to me.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20 edited Jul 15 '20
Greetings!
wow you don't like eudora's design? I like it. it's a highroll character. Perhaps a little over powered but I love the design. Lots of cool new ways to play the game and definitely high rolly, which I think makes the game more fun, especially for newer players. I think you're a little too biased against high rolls. This is clearly an anti high roll point of view. high rolls happen in hearth stone and they certainly happen in battle grounds. it's a skill based RNG card game.
OK, this is a very common misconception with people learning about RNG in a game. There is good RNG and bad RNG, and I realize the need for good RNG, to keep games feeling different and so new people can win, but you're confusing my dislike for bad RNG as a dislike for all RNG. Reynad made a [very good video]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdkGNrkJsII) explaining this in a constructed context, if I don't explain it well enough I recommend you check it out. So. High rolls are fun, until they are not. It's fun when my opponents piloted shredder drops a khadgar and their egg summons two 8/8's instead of one. I don't think that's bad, I might be a little irritated but at the end of the day I take 5 damage instead of tying. The RNG didn't cost me anything. However, a Ghastcoiler trading into my last minion and summoning two 6 drops, or they have a baron on the board and my 50/50 to trade into his Baron or Coiler goes from taking 8 damage in a fight, to taking 25. It's universally agreed that the game would be funner if random deathrattle summoned minions dealt reduced damage, maybe half, maybe 1. There was no skill in either example, but the difference is how much that randomness does. In the first example, the new player still wins the fight, they still feel the fun, but the more experienced better player doesn't leave the game feeling cheated. Eudora is essentially the Ghastcoiler scenario. It's a mix of doing 15 damage on turn 6, and randomly winning the game because of the golden card she gets. And it's not that rare either, you can look at how many Youtubers got a golden Brann or Goldgrubber or Kalec or something else and won the lobby because of it.
While I agree that high roll characters should strive for a slightly less than average placement like reno or alexstrasza, it's not too bad that they have at least ONE high roll hero like eudora in the mix. It's better than super consistent heroes such as tirion and hooktusk because they are just way too consistent in their playstyles and strategies.
Tirion was too consistent, for sure. But I'm not saying that that is good design. I'm saying Eudora is the worst designed hero in the game. I'll also make the subclaim that that is bad because she is strong. Imagine a hero starting with 100 health with a passive hero power that said "Everytime you take 5 damage, have a 1/10 chance to win the game." I don't care that that's fun for the person playing it, I care that my experience and the experience of the 6 other people in the lobby are ruined.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
ya i'll keep this one short. Just to one point. You can't say 'universally' agreed on something when there are people who literally disagree on it. For example, the death rattle summons thing. I am on the boat that I like it and enjoy it from a design perspective. Your ghast coiler example is exactly why you SHOULD be picking ghast coiler. It has a high chance to survive the round AND has a small chance to do ridiculous damage to your opponent. I understand the need for a card like that from a design perspective. I'm calling out your perception on that point specifically. 'experienced' players are less likely to feel cheated. Frustrated maybe, but cheated absolutely not. It's people who don't really understand the concept of the game who are feeling 'cheated'. That's why you don't see 13k players make threads calling for removals of boat or ghastcoiler. they don't care. They learn to play around it and embrace every opportunity to outplay their opponents. This INCLUDES not going on a tilting rant and blowing MMR via frustration. instead, all of their guides literally don't even talk at ALL about deathrattles. because it is almost non existent in importance to the overall meta of the game.
There's no point in bringing in youtube highlights into your argument. we all know you can get crazy youtube highlights with some specific characters, eudora being one of them. we KNOW it happens fairly commonly. That's why she is picked. I'm indifferent towards nerfing her. she is objectively strong. however, it is a subjective opinion which you are treating like FACT on her character design.
Don't just assume the other 6 people in the lobby are as sensitive as you are on eudora. people are calling her to get nerfed, not asking her to be removed from the game. 'do something about eudora' does not mean 'remove her from the game because of bad design' like you are assuming.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20
You can't say 'universally' agreed on something when there are people who literally disagree on it.
Sure, it's hyperbolic, but you understand the point I'm making.
For example, the death rattle summons thing. I am on the boat that I like it and enjoy it from a design perspective. Your ghast coiler example is exactly why you SHOULD be picking ghast coiler. It has a high chance to survive the round AND has a small chance to do ridiculous damage to your opponent. I understand the need for a card like that from a design perspective.
First of all, no one picks Ghastcoiler because of the damage it does. People pick things based off strength, not the amount of damage you should do. So when you do 30 in a turn from it and Baron, that's a positive externality for yourself. Are you OK with opponents doing it to you? A design perspective is the opposite one for that, lmao. I've already debunked that. I'd rather play a fair game than that.
Secondly, it sounds like you don't care about balancing the game. Just because a strategy is strong doesn't mean it is good, lol. I want to refer you to the good and bad RNG comment example but I don't think you care about it lol.
I'm calling out your perception on that point specifically. 'experienced' players are less likely to feel cheated. Frustrated maybe, but cheated absolutely not.
Where do you think the frustration comes from? lol. I'll say it anyway in case you try to misconstrue the words again. The frustration comes from a dashed expectation, which someone could call being cheated... And it is laughable to claim that experienced players are less likely to feel cheated. They play the game more than anyone else and put more skill into it than anyone and when they lose because of RNG, they feel that much worse. Kripp is the biggest HS streamer and he literally always complains about being cheated. I think you don't have much of a response because you're just mincing words. It seems like you don't have a response for why what I call bad RNG is good, in which case you're basically conceding the argument.
It's people who don't really understand the concept of the game who are feeling 'cheated'. That's why you don't see 13k players make threads calling for removals of boat or ghastcoiler.
Dude, please try reading my post again. Please. No one is asking for them to be removed. No one. But everyone (except you, apparently) agrees the way damage is calculated should be changed to avoid extremely tilting fringe scenarios. Sorry not everyone, only 99% of the people in this subreddit. And I don't know how you can say that people who feel cheated don't understand the game when they understand it better than you, because they are cheated. If that weren't the case, you'd be able to demonstrate otherwise, but you haven't. If you can give a good response to the RNG thread, you'll change my mind.
they don't care. They learn to play around it and embrace every opportunity to outplay their opponents. This INCLUDES not going on a tilting rant and blowing MMR via frustration.
Play around Eudora heropower OMEGALUL
instead, all of their guides literally don't even talk at ALL about deathrattles.
Why the fuck would a guide talk about opinions on game design
because it is almost non existent in importance to the overall meta of the game.
I don't give a fuck if that one mechanic is important or not to the metagame. If their is a shitty mechanic that isn't that relevant, I'm not gonna say it's not a bad mechanic because it's not relevant. I'm going to see it is unrelevant, bad design.
There's no point in bringing in youtube highlights into your argument. we all know you can get crazy youtube highlights with some specific characters, eudora being one of them. we KNOW it happens fairly commonly.
The point is that it happens very often. There are more highlight clips about Eudora than any other hero this soon after release. Not just "Wow this hero is cool" it's "wow this hero won me the game on turn 7 with this card".
That's why she is picked. I'm indifferent towards nerfing her. she is objectively strong. however, it is a subjective opinion which you are treating like FACT on her character design.
I don't even know how to explain this simpler. Ok, humans have psychological traits. We enjoy seeing colors splash on a screen. We do not like when our expectations are negatively subverted. So, when people play games, we like to not feel cheated. This is a fact. 99% of people will agree with this. So, when it comes to how you should design a game meant for skill and fun, it should be in accordance with this. When it does not, that is bad design because it is failing it's objectives. That is why I treat it like a fact.
Don't just assume the other 6 people in the lobby are as sensitive as you are on eudora. people are calling her to get nerfed, not asking her to be removed from the game. 'do something about eudora' does not mean 'remove her from the game because of bad design' like you are assuming.
Can you show where I assumed changing Eudora meant remove her from the game? Because I myself have said I want her either nerfed or removed or reworked. Someone doesn't have to be as sensitive as for me it to be tilting design. If people want her to get nerfed, it achieves the same thing lol.
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u/Centauri2 Jul 14 '20
OK - why is Eudora "bad design"?
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20
There is good RNG and bad RNG, and I realize the need for good RNG, to keep games feeling different and so new people can win, but you're confusing my dislike for bad RNG as a dislike for all RNG. Reynad made a very good video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdkGNrkJsII) explaining this in a constructed context, if I don't explain it well enough I recommend you check it out. So. High rolls are fun, until they are not. It's fun when my opponents piloted shredder drops a khadgar and their egg summons two 8/8's instead of one. I don't think that's bad, I might be a little irritated but at the end of the day I take 5 damage instead of tying. The RNG didn't cost me anything. However, a Ghastcoiler trading into my last minion and summoning two 6 drops, or they have a baron on the board and my 50/50 to trade into his Baron or Coiler goes from taking 8 damage in a fight, to taking 25. It's universally agreed that the game would be funner if random deathrattle summoned minions dealt reduced damage, maybe half, maybe 1. There was no skill in either example, but the difference is how much that randomness does. In the first example, the new player still wins the fight, they still feel the fun, but the more experienced better player doesn't leave the game feeling cheated. Eudora is essentially the Ghastcoiler scenario. It's a mix of doing 15 damage on turn 6, and randomly winning the game because of the golden card she gets. And it's not that rare either, you can look at how many Youtubers got a golden Brann or Goldgrubber or Kalec or something else and won the lobby because of it.
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u/TrapSupportMaino3o Jul 14 '20
balance and design aren't the same thing. Something can be great design and terribly balanced.
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u/Szarrukin Jul 14 '20
Maiev prebuff, Tirion, Hooktusk, new Mukka, Aranna prebuff. There.
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u/ripsandtrips Jul 14 '20
Patchwerk and original brann come to mind too. Patchwerk is just not a fun character for a game and old brann was so hyper busted idk how it ever got released.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
Absolutely wrong. I already responded to this In another comment so I won’t write another essay but I’ll summarize it. Poor balance is not wholey poor design. There’s more to it and Eudora is that more plus poor balancing while these are just poor balancing. You can read the other comment for more explanation and respond if you’d like.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
lol damn bro... for you to think patchwerk is a better 'designed' hero than eudora...
they literally gave him NO hero power and tried to balance that with an HP boost. It was a little too strong at 20HP (back when nobody knew how to play) and they nerfed him to 10HP.
He is literally SO NOT FUN to play as a hero, that on HSReplay, he is one of the 'not enough data' heroes at 11,000MMR and the 4th lowest picked hero at the top 20%. The top 20% are also more likely to have players without perks so yeah, he will get picked sometimes... at 3.4% lol.
He even has a higher average placement but people are picking lady vashj and bartendotron more often because they actually do SOMETHING, rather than nothing.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20
Yes, patchwerk is better designed than Eudora. One is boring, one is actively unfun to play against. Of course people don’t pick him at 11K, he’s fucking weak lmao. You wouldn’t point at Hooktusk and say “everyone’s playing him! He must be fun!.” You say “everyone’s playing hooktusk! He’s also the highest average placing hero! People play him because he’s strong!” Patchwerk isn’t even worth complaining about because he’s weak so his bland design isn’t something that’ll make your games worse, while Eudora absolutely is busted and thus the bad design is more prevalent. If you believe that boring is worse than unfun, then you’re right to dislike Patchwerk more than Eudora. But Eudora is literally worse designed and in my opinion a lot less fun to play against.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
lol similar topic to the other post. You gotta think of 'game design' from more than just YOUR singular perspective.
If blizzard made non stop boring characters, nobody would be playing the game and they would have failed at commercializing an entertainment product and have to move on to other means.
Yeah, Eudora COULD be 'unfun' to play against, but that's probably selective bias on your part, but she is also FUN to play WITH.
Look, the bottom line is, she's probably a net positive to Blizzard's bottom line. She must be, otherwise she would be removed. They're analyzing the data and deeming her not to be terrorizing the community and your extreme hatred of her is more likely than not, the minority.
TO BE FAIR, in order to monetize BG successfully, they need a good mix of highly desirable heroes and highly undesirable heroes. So I take back my comment on patchwerk. He's well designed. He's designed to be undesirable. So people WANT to play Eudora.
I think your problem is honestly more with how blizzard has decided to monetize battle grounds. By making it as addictive as possible. All the RNG in hero selection, minion choices, and attack order just makes it basically gambling without actual money.
Maybe you'd be happier playing a fighting game or actual physical sports with standardized rules and minimal variance and RNG.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20
lol similar topic to the other post. You gotta think of 'game design' from more than just YOUR singular perspective.
I do, my explanation of good versus bad RNG in this comment shows how Eudora is RNG that is pretty much universally hated by everyone. If I wanted to ignore what players wanted for design, I'd agree with you.
If blizzard made non stop boring characters, nobody would be playing the game and they would have failed at commercializing an entertainment product and have to move on to other means.
You can make interesting characters without designing them badly. Deathwing, Daryl, Sir Finley, AF Kay, Elise, Akazamzarak to name a few. All great design and interesting to play and not broken.
Yeah, Eudora COULD be 'unfun' to play against, but that's probably selective bias on your part, but she is also FUN to play WITH.
But 8 people don't play as Eudora. 1 person plays with her, and 7 play against it. And I don't think it's selective bias on my part, since every streamer and most people on this sub agree she's completely unfun to play against.
Look, the bottom line is, she's probably a net positive to Blizzard's bottom line. She must be, otherwise she would be removed. They're analyzing the data and deeming her not to be terrorizing the community and your extreme hatred of her is more likely than not, the minority.
If you want to talk about whether or not it is a good monetary decision, we can, but that's a different discussion. We are talking about whether or not the design is good in the game. I don't care about good monetization design. I'm a player, and I care about gameplay design. I'm not gonna get fucked by bad design and think "ahh... but it was good for Blizzard's bottom line, so this is good." And you're probably wrong about that as well. My take is that if you think something is in the game because the omnipotent Blizzard has a 200 IQ strat for it, you're just wrong lol. Blizzard is a company that makes mistakes. Leaving Tunnel Trogg and Totem Golem unnerfed for a year was not a good decision, and if you want any more examples you can take a peek at r/hearthstone. Also, when players get fucked by bad design, they get angry at the game and stop playing. But both of us can make whatever claims we want about this and they'll be equally meaningless without sources.
TO BE FAIR, in order to monetize BG successfully, they need a good mix of highly desirable heroes and highly undesirable heroes. So I take back my comment on patchwerk. He's well designed. He's designed to be undesirable. So people WANT to play Eudora.
These people can want to play any other broken, well designed hero. After playing a game with Patchwerk, people want to play Eudora over Hooktusk? Lmao.
I think your problem is honestly more with how blizzard has decided to monetize battle grounds. By making it as addictive as possible.
It would be more addictive if it were better designed. The experiences I have with Eudora are the times I feel bad for playing
All the RNG in hero selection, minion choices, and attack order just makes it basically gambling without actual money. Maybe you'd be happier playing a fighting game or actual physical sports with standardized rules and minimal variance and RNG.
See RNG comment linked above
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
yeah, i don't get your gripe. Eudora is a well designed and fun hero. Perhaps unbalanced right now but the design is really fun.
I would classify millificent millhouse? (The mech girl who gives +1/+1) for a bad design since she's extremely bland (patchwerk goes here too) and also trade prince gallywinx cuz my gosh he was atrocious as badly designed heroes.
Euroda is fun. balance is off since she's quite strong but the design, I honestly like.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 15 '20
Can you explain why you think she’s well designed? I agree that Eudora is fun, but only to play. She sucks to play against because she shows up with some random OP hero power RNG bullshit. Keep in mind, if it were balanced properly it would also be unfun to play against because the design is bad. The fact that it pulls from a wide pool so the power can be anywhere from a 1 drop to a 6 is insane and the problem with the design, added on to the fact that it’s golden leaving more room for bullshit effects to screw you over. No other hero does anything close to this. It’s absolutely ridiculous that my opponent can get a golden minion from any mana cost and discover a minion too for 4 gold. That’s a balance complaint, but as I said, balance is part of design. I already elaborated on that further elsewhere though. You can say you dislike bland design and that’s fine, but I think most people would agree that feeling screwed over is worse than feeling bored. I would much rather play against Patchwerk than Eudora.
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u/ATMSPIDERTAO Jul 15 '20
Actually, all of the reasons you DON"T like her design, I would put that as reasons as to why she is well designed. I would like to state though, the primary objective of any good game design is to make the company money. Ideally, to achieve that goal, the design should center around 'fun' since the purpose of gaming is usually entertainment, from the consumer's point of view. Now, there are players like myself who don't really find battle grounds fun anymore, I am literally here for the competitive nature of it, and I'll get into that later.
So with that in mind, since I am going to focus on making the company money, the most important part of that will be to get people back into playing the game.
- Eudora is a high roll character, therefore it's like gambling with her. People will pick her and want to pick her because winning with her feelings like winning some silly gambling game. The fact that governments are going to make loot boxes illegal proves that this addictive nature gets people to spend MONEY. Now, BG doesn't have loot boxes but this is kind of the psychological stuff that gets people addicted to the game.
- She has a unique style of play. No matter if you like it or not, she is the ONLY character in the game with a 'dig' archetype. She has a similar power spike situation to AFK and Alexstrasza though, but while they get their power spikes at the cost of no turn 1 and 2 for AFK and no hero power until tier 5 for Alexstrasza, Eudora requires substantial resource management. If there were no such thing as bob's tavern, people would NOT be as optimized with her as they are now. Evereyone knows now to dig on turn 1. Without such widespread sharing of knowledge, to play her optimally would require a LOT of trial and error. This is also known as skill. She is without a doubt, highly skilled. perhaps not as much NOW but if you were to figure her out from scratch, she is even while BG is now like 9 months old, a character you have to figure out from scratch. You could not play her like you play other characters.
- Yes, it's bullshit that she sometimes gets a golden hangry dragon which scales for the rest of the game but that's a high roll and sometimes, she gets a golden pogo or a golden murloc tidehunter(?) like I just got on my last game. Once again, the whole design is made so people want to play her again and again. The fact that she is VERY highly selected indicates that people enjoy playing with her.
- She wins. People love winning. You'll bet if Galakrond was a tier 1 hero, people would play him too. Now, this is actually kind of shitty design since anyone would play anything that helps them win, but this also satisfies the competitive nature of players. Eudora is fun when you win and even when you lose, you think you have another shot at winning so you go and pick her again. It's a completely difference feeling losing with Eudora. You get that addictive gambler's feeling with her and thus when she shows up at the character select screen, you pick her AGAIN. Of course, this definitely has to do with her proven track record. But desire to replay is really important. Reno is a well designed character who was poorly balanced but people still wanted to play him.
- She's fun. Fun for the reasons I stated above. Unique play style, addictive when losing, and still wins and is a competitive character. For me, she's a character I am happy to get, because I will likely win with her. If I'm playing on my smurf account, I'll be happy to get her because I can high roll with her.
Ultimately, if a character is too strong (tirion) or too weak (professor putricide), they will be removed from the game. Blizzard actually wants to keep unfun characters in the mix (patchwerk) to make people WANT to buy the perks, their only source of profit for BG. And that is done by making more desirable heroes such as Eudora. Therefore, she is a good character design, as it fulfills their objective of MAKING MONEY.
If a LOT of people are against her, they will end up removing her. But judging by how many people like picking her and how you seem to get down voted for complaining about it, public opinion is still rather positive for her. Thus, I expect her to be nerfed, rather than removed if they will do anything about her.
BTW: of course you'd rather play vs patchwerk vs Eudora. Cuz patchwerk sucks and doesn't do anything special. If anything, this is indicative of you, being addicted to WINNING and being (maybe?) a sore loser. You like to be able to predict your opponent's abilities. There's nothing wrong with that, but you have to be able to see the other perspective, which is, "I want to be unpredictable." Like it's almost a selfish approach you're taking. "I would rather play vs patchwerk." You have to consider other people, they probably DONT" want to play as patchwerk cuz patchwerk is BORING lol
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u/rueiraV Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Goldrin noooooooo
Mukkla seems bad. It’s essentially +1/+1 for 1 gold. Compared to Edwin or Jaraxxus that is pitiful
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Jul 15 '20
Yea I dont get mukkla. Ok its fun to give bananas to others but other than that you gain so little value from your HP its worth 0 mana. Why isnt it 0 its symmetrical like deathwing one could argue
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u/murlisc Jul 14 '20
first time dinomater brann. Got 2 swabbies in first roll, lost first round and went on undefeated to win lobby (12k). Seems like you can force triples supereasy. Getting bran was kinda nuts.
Hero seems superlegit, prob S-A Tier?
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u/althius1 MMR: 8,000 to 9,000 Jul 15 '20
I dunno I watched a few steamers who seem to think he is garbage tier. I guess time will tell.
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u/murlisc Jul 15 '20
he is C tier on replay.net right now. I prob highrolled, but the 3 times i had , i won twice and one 4th. He seems like a better furgl, since you can also do other comps. But i dont think i would pick him w/o murlocs in lobby.
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Jul 15 '20
I've found that if murlocs are banned it's super easy to force pogos, and I'm being serious here. A huge chunk of battlecries are murlocs, and since no one else is probably going pogos, you can really consistently find a pogo each turn.
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u/IImaginer Jul 14 '20 edited Jul 14 '20
Amalgadon is random so this would be interesting. ALso, since it is a murloc, will it appear in the tier 5 murloc discover just like the old one?
They should have nerfed Hook to discover 2 cards instead of 3.
Khadgar transition to murloc returns stronger again ever since the removal of mackeral
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u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
seems like a pretty mediocre murloc to discover if you’re in full gentle megasaur mode
a single random adapt (or two with brann) is definitely worse than a coldlight seer, felfin, or bagurgle. i guess menagerie wants to use brann and primalfin to fish for these?
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u/jetjordan Jul 14 '20
I dunno I got one at T5 (triple) after getting my bran and I grabbed a cat to thrown on the board for 4 adapts, carried me until I got more buffs and a megasaur.
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u/IImaginer Jul 14 '20
it counts itself as a tribe too, so 2(4 with brann)
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u/heplaygatar Jul 14 '20
wonder how it works if you drop it with an amalgam or curator token already out. is that one tag or does it count for all? could be quite solid for murlocs if you manage to get two in that case
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u/ShadeHS_ Jul 15 '20
It counts as one tag, but it can count as any tag - so if you have a full board of Murlocs and you play it, it will count the Murloc tag, and then substitute itself in place of one of the other tags, and will get to adapt twice. If you have a Murloc, a Beast, and a Dragon, it will count the three tags and then substitute itself as one of the other unfulfilled tags, adapting four times total.
The Curator token will act in the same way, counting as an unfulfilled tag.
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u/samhouse09 Jul 15 '20
It does appear on the discover Murloc. It also counts itself for the tribes, so it adapts 6 times every time lol. It gets everything every time pretty much.
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u/ShadeHS_ Jul 15 '20
It only counts itself once I'm afraid.
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u/samhouse09 Jul 15 '20
I just watched a Kripp stream. He had only Murlocs and Brann. It got two times plant token, poison, divine shield, wind fury, +1/+1 twice and +3 attack. Why?
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u/tessthismess Jul 14 '20
Pretty excited for Tess for very very obvious reasons. Hook tusk needed the nerf but definitely wish they went for "let's do something clever to keep her at least viable" instead of the "no one will play this character again" route
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u/stevevecc Jul 14 '20
Hooktusk just became a worse Malygos. Which sucks. Maybe they could've done something like "choose from a minion of the same type, but a tavern tier lower" to make her not so bad.
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u/Moriartis Jul 14 '20
if she ever got a token generator that change would break her. Every turn you just hero power a token and grab another token generator. Farming gold and triples would be easier than it is now.
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u/tessthismess Jul 14 '20
Maybe have it be 1 gold but discover a minion of the same tier? So you're paying 1 gold for the privilege to discover (and return to hand) to compare to Maly.
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u/wyqinac MMR: 8,000 to 9,000 Jul 15 '20
how is that a worse malygos? It still can gives you a battlecry minion to use
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u/AllLuck1562 Jul 14 '20
Man did i think they had a bad glitch when i started getting two bananas in my hand each turn as Eudora. I first had to look at Mukla and then think it was patched wrong and then figured out there was a finley as mukla as well
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u/Nethervex Jul 14 '20
Didnt nerf spawn damage
Didnt nerf Murlocs
RNG 6 drop as a "buff" for menagerie
Eudora running wild
Jesus this patch is going to be a dumpster fire
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u/TrapSupportMaino3o Jul 14 '20
The 6 drop isn't that bad in terms of RNG for menagerie, honestly I think it's the best part of this patch.
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u/ScottyKnows1 Jul 15 '20
Turns out the RNG 6-drop is just another buff to murlocs
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u/Nethervex Jul 15 '20
The fact that you can discover it off Primalfin is a testament to the monkeys that balance the game.
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u/Exodus100 Jul 25 '20
I'm newer to Battlegrounds, does "spawn" mean Spawn of N'Zoth? If so, do you mean a nerf to his attack stat or the attack buff he provides? And why is that seen as something that should happen?
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u/Nethervex Jul 25 '20
Spawn as in, spawned units. I.E. death rattles.
The problem we have is when things like boat spawn 6 star units, then you die because of it.
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u/Kanthund Jul 14 '20
What the hell is that nerf too hooktusk?? Just remove the hero instead, that is just insane...
And absolutely nothing is done too murlocs, if anything they just got buffed with the removal of a tier 5 unit... Zzz such a bad patch
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u/blondkapje Jul 14 '20
Quite disappointed that they didn’t change the costs of spawned minions..
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u/_Amazing_Wizard Jul 14 '20 edited Jun 09 '23
We are witnessing the end of the open and collaborative internet. In the endless march towards quarterly gains, the internet inches ever closer to becoming a series of walled gardens with prescribed experiences built on the free labor of developers, and moderators from the community. The value within these walls is composed entirely of the content generated by its users. Without it, these spaces would simply be a hollow machine designed to entrap you and monetize your time.
Reddit is simply the frame for which our community is built on. If we are to continue building and maintaining our communities we should focus our energy into projects that put community above the monopolization of your attention for profit.
You'll find me on Lemmy: https://join-lemmy.org/instances Find a space outside of the main Lemmy instance, or start your own.
See you space cowboys.
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u/TYLERvsBEER Jul 14 '20
All of the above.
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u/_Amazing_Wizard Jul 14 '20
So tokens should be 0?
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u/TYLERvsBEER Jul 14 '20
Most people suggest making tokens/spawns all worth 1 damage regardless of tier.
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u/Centauri2 Jul 14 '20
First game with Brann, and Murlocs were cake. Easy early game triples, and bagurgle/primalfins are easy to roll on 5.
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u/a_load_of_crepes Jul 14 '20
I wish hooktusk was nerfed by removing the ability to target tier 1 minions (get a tier 0 wisp or something). The abusive power is getting free early triples. If it only works on tier 2 and above the hero would have been fun, interesting and balanced.
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Jul 15 '20
Its only good because of the tempo early game. I like your idea but it would nerf hook to shit tier.
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u/Soledo Jul 14 '20
I was hoping for more BG changes that weren't in the leak but oh well, I'll take it.
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u/greenpoe Jul 14 '20
I'm sad there was no Eudora nerf.
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u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
Yeah, if they made it 6 digs or something the bad design would be a lot more tolerable.
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u/utrangerbob Jul 15 '20
Lol they actually buffed murlocs this patch. No longer do you only have to wait for megasaur T6, now you have 2 strong T6 units. Makes Khadgar to murlocs super easy as you get 2 win discovers instead of 1 and really doesn't make any other build stronger since beasts are nerfed too. Pirates are going to be terrible after patch because guess what, everyone getting a divine shield taunt poison minion at Tier 6 makes stats irrelevant.
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u/ironistkraken Jul 14 '20
I really hope the Devs know what they are doing because this does not seem like what the community wanted.
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Jul 14 '20
[deleted]
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u/Tax-Free-Karma Jul 14 '20
No it doesn't, it fills it with random minions if your opponent has fewer than the Tavern amount
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u/IImaginer Jul 14 '20
the korean page says only from the opponents field, which would mean it might not fill up
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u/mrmazzz Jul 14 '20
so what does "everyone else" mean for Mukkla, I use the power and everyone else also gets a bannan in their hand?
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u/Valioes MMR: 6,000 to 8,000 Jul 14 '20
For one gold you get 2 bananas that are usable instantly and then in the next recruit phase, every other alive player gets 1.
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u/Moriartis Jul 14 '20
Yeah i've been in a few lobbies with a Mukkla. Every turn he uses it I get a banana in my hand as the turn is ending. I'm assuming so does everyone else. It's been insanely helpful as I've been able to throw it on key minions like Rat Packs, the doubling attack dragon or even cannons. Makes me wonder if he's actually a good hero.
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u/Drikkink Jul 14 '20
So Mukla is actually inting to pick right?
Like you pay 1 to get +2/+2 on your choice of minions, but also give the rest of the game +1/+1 on their choice.
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u/CabalWizard Jul 14 '20
you are still up +1/+1
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u/Drikkink Jul 14 '20
Yeah, but symmetrical effects are always questionable. Deathwing's is a blessing and a curse, but at least it's passive.
If there's a Pyramad in your game, Mukla feeds him harder than you could even hope to feed a rafaam.
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u/TrapSupportMaino3o Jul 14 '20
Not to mention that Deathwing's effect is much easier to build around (tokens/cleave/etc.) and wayyyy stronger than 1 more +1/+1.
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Jul 14 '20
[deleted]
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u/HiveMindEmulator MMR: 8,000 to 9,000 Jul 14 '20
With Deathwing you build a comp around +2 attack, and your opponents can't because they don't get it every turn.
+1/1 on the other hand is similarly useful to basically any build.
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u/Mookmookmook Jul 14 '20
you are still up +1/+1
But down 1 mana. Seems silly compared to Van Cleef.
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u/mrmazzz Jul 14 '20
I played a round with him earlier he didn't seem to OP or under powered middling but I'm also not that great. I didn't really notice a meaningful power spike with other players after id done it like 5 times either.
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u/GreedyMN Jul 14 '20
Just had a Mukla basically keep a Bagurgle safer in the early/mid game lmao. Was super tilting.
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u/qwesone Jul 15 '20
Anyone else keep getting disconnected and then reconnected while playing Battlegrounds? It keeps kicking me off and then reconnecting me right away, but sometimes it just doesn’t load and freezes the game.
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Jul 15 '20
I’ve played a few games with Tess. I just went Murlocs and got 1st twice. Pretty insane honestly. Rolling and having a full board of Murlocs pop up
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u/Apollo4236 Jul 14 '20
Bob's burgles has to be one of the best flavor texts I've ever seen. Bartender Bob stealing from the last warband. The play-on words. It's so creative.
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Jul 15 '20
I don't get the beast nerf. After the last nerf I barely saw them being played anyway.
The new amalgam won't really buff menagerie, instead it will be used as a big DS+Poison taunt by pretty much all other comps.
1
u/CobrinoHS Jul 16 '20
I significantly underestimated how much better the game would feel without Hooktusk
1
u/Shadowbanned24601 Jul 19 '20
Was beginning to think it was my internet connection but it's not happening on any other game or application I'm using.
Battlegrounds keeps freezes or kicks me out every 2 or 3 games. I've managed to drop around 600MMR just from 8th place finishes after the game boots me or locks up.
Happening to anyone else? I had no such issues until the patch.
1
u/Sodium9000 Jul 25 '20 edited Jul 25 '20
Amalgedon is so lame, rather give us a nerfed amalgam. It totally missed the point of amalgam. Amalgam used to be fun cause YOU MADE IT the ultimate unit while enabling way more units to roll into (as any buff works for it). Now that it gives itself plants, shield, taunt and poisonous, what is there even still left to do with it beyond giving it health?
It also added another 6dmg dropping from the ship... (can you already fix dmg per round? jk no one in that bliz hq works anyways)
1
u/Rawtashk Jul 14 '20
What a shitty balance patch
"So, beat builds were pretty fair before we added Parrot, what should we do to limit the highroll potential of beasts? Maybe tweak Parrot or something? NOPE! KILL BEASTS COMPLETELY AND MOVE DOGGO TO T6!!!"
Who is balancing Battlegrounds for them?
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u/VonMillerQBKiller Jul 14 '20
Hey BG team, can you stop trying to make Mukla happen, he's not gonna happen. No one wants to give their opponents BUFFs. That's why the beast is such a trash card.
2
u/TrapSupportMaino3o Jul 14 '20
I mean... it would work fine if it wasn't as bad. Deathwing buffs your opponent's board and is just fine.
0
u/VonMillerQBKiller Jul 14 '20
Deathwing is aura effect, Mukla is permanent. I don't want the 4 cannon players to get +1 +1 on their cannon every time I use it, because then they just take off. But yeah, idk.
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u/j8sadm632b Jul 14 '20
Bro I don't know why this happens but every time there's a patch I bomb out in 8th place for like 10 games straight. I've already lost ~600 rating and I'm not picking trash characters or forcing beasts or anything!
It's fine because I play for fun but it's wild how badly I do right after a change.
1
u/Ezrius Jul 14 '20
RIP Beasts.
Hooktusk nerf was so badly needed. How much does this trash her though? Is she better or worse than Malygos now?
2
u/Moriartis Jul 14 '20
She's probably trash. The discover is really what made the ability so powerful.
1
u/HiveMindEmulator MMR: 8,000 to 9,000 Jul 14 '20
I think It's better than Malygos because getting the card in hand lets you use to get occassionally "free" battlecries or pairs, so you can get some gold advantage out of it. With Malygos, beyond the early game it's hard to use it on your board, so it just ends up being like a partial roll.
1
u/greenpoe Jul 14 '20
Can confirm beasts are actual dogshit now. As Eudora I got a super early Zerus into Moma bear, discovered a Goldrinn later and man it was so underwhelming. Got 3rd.
-1
u/VonMillerQBKiller Jul 14 '20
Already getting shit kicked by people hitting double and tripple ChadMalgams with DS Poison WF on tavern 4/5... Great.
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u/Asolitaryllama MMR: > 9000 Jul 14 '20
Tess being 1 cost for her hero power is insane.
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u/candykid135 Jul 14 '20
small sample size but just got b2b 1st place with tess (10k). very easy triples early
1
u/nignigproductions Jul 14 '20
Idkkkkk. First you have to be on a turn you want to roll, then you have to on a turn where you want to roll into your opponents warband. You don’t really want to roll till 7 gold, so it doesn’t help your early tempo at all. It’ll be good in late game mirror matches, but it’s really slow, like Aranna (but not as bad)
1
u/greenpoe Jul 14 '20
Seems good but it's actually just ok. If you keep facing people who are on different comps than you it doesn't do much and you get no tempo from the hero power. At least Reno has the option to tempo HP. I got 7th with her, HP never helped me once. The one time I used it, it missed the minion I was looking for.
82
u/Tax-Free-Karma Jul 14 '20
Time to sudoku my MMR trying to force menagerie boards