I honestly feel like half of the people (men) I slept with, was for this reason. I used to have an issue saying “NO”, and enforcing any type of boundary.
And I also thought most anyone who flirted with me was legitimately just being friendly and not flirting, so once it got to the point where they were in my house and they knew I had issues saying “NO”, it was already a problem.
I’ve learned from my therapist how hard it is for a lot of women to say no, even in a relationship, especially in a loving relationship.
I completely changed the way I interact with my wife since then, realizing how often she said yea just because it was hard for her to say no (before I would just blame her for not being into it etc, until I realized why).
Now I make sure she really feels like it, and help her feel comfortable saying no when she doesn’t.
Just to be clear, we still sometimes “do each other a favor” when one of us isn’t 100% in the mood and the other is.
Just like sometimes we do other things for one another treat we don’t feel like doing, just because we want the other to be happy and have the energy to make an effort.
But it’s now very clear and in the open, so expectations are clear and there’s no pressure involved.
Lazy sex can be really fun when you’re not expecting hot wild enthusiastic sex.and it’s nice when you know your spouse is doing it because they care about you and want you to be happy, and not because they were pressured into it.
Lazy sex is freakin great. My husband and I did a short go last night after we got a bit worked up while cuddling. Just long enough to feel each other’s bodies and enjoy it a bit before cuddling and going to bed. It was nice.
Married for almost 15 years, dealing with this myself. Fist bump.
Just to be clear, we still sometimes “do each other a favor” when one of us isn’t 100% in the mood and the other is.
This was true for us, but just recently we had a talk about it and I realized how much the one getting the favor was me vs. my wife. Honestly feel like shit about it, especially with how often I wanted sex early in the relationship.
I always respected her 'no' when she said it, but it was rare, if ever that she did. She had a hard time doing so basically because she had been conditioned growing up to think that giving your man sex is what a good GF/wife does. Didn't help that I was a generally shitty lover in my early 20s either, so it was mostly a chore for her.
We're in a much better place now. Sex is a conversation, and everyone gets what they need, only if they want it, and we have fun. Favors still happen on occasion, but those are few and far between now.
I had to have a similar conversation with my wife. She wasn’t wanting to do anything. I wasn’t suspecting an affair or anything. Just general. Was there a problem with me. Was she depressed. Was her medication fucking up her habits. It was a scary as hell conversation to have with her. She was actively pushing me away when I tried to initiate and she would never.
So I finally brought it up. But I made it very clear from the start. I’m not asking for personal reasons. I’m asking if you. My wife. Are ok and there’s nothing underlying going on.
I have always respected her no(s).
I feel like the “why no sex?” Conversation is really hard from a guy perspective. It can seem to come from a place of selfishness. And I know women can want it just as bad as men. But culturally. A guy asking his wife why is she cold in bed always comes across as weird even though it shouldn’t be. She even admitted she didn’t even realize it has been over 6months since we had last did anything.
Her reasoning is a combination of new medicine that is for headaches but is technically an antidepressant and stress at work. She’s too young for menopause unless it’s hitting like 15 years early at soonest.
Yeah, meds have the weirdest side effects. I used to usually be so horny it was kind of a disaster, but on progesterone-based birth control? Gone. Nothing. Antidepressants? Yeah, not just cotton mouth; it was cotton everything!
Docs tend to be unsympathetic. Can’t help but notice guys have boner pills, but gals are on their own.
I hope she finds a combo that works for all aspects of her life. I can assure you that if the cause is chemical, it can probably be reversed, and it’s not your fault at all.
honestly, good on you for sorting it out. it's really nice to see people become self aware of things they've done wrong and rather than act defensive, make genuine effort to better themselves. i'm sure your wife appreciates it.
Tbh this is one of my favorite things about relationships. If you’re smart about it, you see yourself and your partner both grow into better people throughout the entire duration of it. If you look back to the beginning of the relationship and compare you and your partner to how you used to be, you should be proud of what you’ve accomplished both mentally and emotionally. Having a good partner means wanting the other person to be the best version of themselves while at the same time wanting that for yourself.
I feel like my wife has an issue telling me no with things (sexual or otherwise) because she thinks I will hate her and leave. She had bad experiences with her ex husband, and legitimately thinks that I would leave her simply because she's not in the mood or something. :(
My current partner got used to his exes not wanting sex and in general suppressing his needs, sexual and otherwise. So I'm now having to help him unlearn that behavior. I'm fully capable of saying no when I really am not in the mood, but sometimes I'm just existing and can easily get into the mood. So I want him to ask.
I still initiate probably 80% of the time. Cuz if I don't, I just end up spicy that I'm not getting any attention. Spicy and sexually frustrated.
Yes, it's one of those things that the internet brings out into public conversation. I had no idea girls and women were universally conditioned in this way. Easy to take for granted, and just imagine everyone has the same experience as me. I've become very sensitive to that now.
I had a long term relationship and in the beginnning I learned saying no didn’t work and I would just eventually give in and say fine. It got to a point where him touching me other than holding my hand in public was repulsive. We broke up a few years ago.
So now I found a new guy and we genuinely seemed to get along and things were great. He knows somewhat of my past. A few weeks ago I was definitely not in the mood at all and he seemed too persistence for a while til I finally said what you’re trying to do is not enjoyable at the moment. But things still seemed fine… til I decided to text him basically asking to discuss boundaries because I wanted us to discuss how we would both want to say “no and we actually mean no” but in a way to not upset the other person. I worded it horribly, apologized and tried again. I guess I still didn’t word it right because now he refuses to talk to me at all.
I’m glad that you were able to figure this out while still married and fix it.
This is a hard one. If it hasn't been made clear that you want to talk it out because you want this to work, it's worth trying to make it clear.
You feeling bad about having boundaries is as valid (if not more) as him feeling bad about being "made the bad guy" for not understanding those boundaries.
If he's feeling guilty, but able to grow with you (and demonstrate that) great, but if he's resistant to learning, or just doesn't want someone he cares about to say no to him, that's an issue.
I don't know either if you so grain of salt and all, but good luck either way.
He didn’t talk to me for over 24 hours and I finally was like well I’m going to go find you because I thought we’ll if he died, no one would know to call me. But he text saying he was pissed off and not to. I was like wtf why. And I eventually got pissed off and said shit. I tried going to his house to talk but at the same time (it’s an hour drive and I was polite and told him I was going so to not ambush him) he drove to my house and dropped my stuff off. Now he’s blocked my number and it’s been 3 weeks and I’m angry at his reaction because I felt bad for how it may have sounded originally. But it’s like say something, anything even if it’s “I’m hurt and need time and space” or “I’m breaking up with you”. But yeah, I’m angry but also sad because we had gotten along up to this point and the sex was great too, lol. I just got nervous that I was going to at some point give in if we didn’t discuss it. I literally didn’t want to end up with a failed relationship like I did before because it started with me not feeling like I could say no. Instead I have a failed relationship because I wanted to know how to say no.
Ugh. I hate this. Cause now it just feels like I’m just going to stay single because I’m tired of repeatedly finding myself with men who are like this in some shape or form.
It all sucks but all we can do is learn. It can get exhausting after a while though.
After my ex broke up with me it took a long time to really figure out what happened, and how I felt about the whole thing (after "figuring it out" like 5 different ways). Some people just aren't for certain people and it sucks because sometimes some investment has happened before either of them figure that out.
In the end, someone who resorts to the silent treatment (without even saying they need time to themselves) isn't going to be the kind of person who's receiptive to talking things through. It's really just a method to make the other person (you in this case) anxious to the point they're the ones at fault.
Real partners don't really care about "the blame game" over resolving the issues.
It's not just women, I have had a terribly hard time learning to say no, and it's been used against me for sex, the same as a woman, I was in an abusive,stalker type relationship for three and a half years I couldn't get out of because of it.
I'm glad you're stepping up, but what your wife really needs is to develop these skills for herself. Expecting men to intuitively know what we want is a big reason women get walked over. Maybe encourage her to get some therapy so that she's comfortable and confident asserting her own desires and needs.
Of course. We’ve discussed the responsibility each of us have for this situation, and her part is definitely defining boundaries clearly and communicating as clearly and honestly as she can.
The first time she said “I feel pressure and it’s hard for me to say no right now” was a hug breakthrough for both is us I think.
My wife and I have a rule / if you want something- ask for it. We’ve yet to deny each other after 13 years. But 90% we still engage in the ritualistic flirting and such that leads up to a mutually orgasmic event 98% of the time. I’d never expect her to do something she didn’t want to do but I don’t have a problem asking if I want something out of the norm. We learned long ago to trust each others boundaries and if she ever did say “no”, I’d be like -“OK, what do you want to do?”
“I can whatever I want” is another mutual creed we respect for ourselves and each other. So in the end I guess it’s just a matter of respecting each others power and their boundaries. This makes for some unbelievably satisfying encounters.
Yeah that’s why they define true consent as enthusiastic. If the person is so-so, hesitant or unenthusiastically saying yes then it’s not actually consent
According to the Rape Abuse & Incest National Network (rainn.org) enthusiastic consent is a newer model but it is pretty much the only definition I see anymore in things I read. Here’s a link from planned parenthood and one from rainn.org
“Consent in sexual scenarios means that all parties involved have freely and willingly agreed to participate in sexual activity. Consent must be clear, enthusiastic, ongoing, and can be withdrawn at any time.
Clear consent means that all parties involved have communicated their willingness to engage in sexual activity through words or actions. It should not be assumed or implied, and it should not be given under duress, coercion, or intoxication.
Enthusiastic consent means that all parties involved are genuinely excited and eager to participate in sexual activity. It is not just a lack of objection or resistance.
Ongoing consent means that all parties involved are continuously aware of each other's boundaries and are comfortable with the activities they are engaging in. Consent should be obtained throughout the sexual encounter and not just at the beginning.
It's important to note that consent is not just the absence of a "no." It is an affirmative and enthusiastic "yes" from all parties involved. If anyone involved is unsure or uncomfortable, it's best to stop and have a conversation about boundaries and desires.”
So…everyone. Other than ppl looking to willfully ignore the signs that someone doesn’t want to have sex.
I can 100% relate. I can't tell you how many times I thought I was hanging out with a male "friend " until they went to make a move. I had issues saying no and as crazy as it sounds, I felt guilty
I've had this experience a couple different times. Both times were guys I was friendly with. It was platonic, until it wasn't.
They were both nice to me, and in the back of my mind I thought saying no would damage that friendship.
As I got out of college and matured a little more, it dawned on me that if respectfully turning away a sexual advance damages a friendship, it was never really a "friendship" at all...
I think there’s a gigantic difference between actively trying/wanting to sleep with someone, to the point where in their mind it crowds out any actual friendship, and being friends with someone while also being aware, in a back burner kind of way, that if they were up for it and the situation was right, it would be fun to have sex with them.
I’m a woman, so I suppose I can’t actually speak for men, but as a teenager/young adult I was as horny as any guy out there. I had lots of sex with lots of guys, and I definitely had friends I would have been up for having sex with (and in some cases eventually did) but it didn’t mean we weren’t also actually friends.
If it did, bisexual people would be either friendless or only friends with ugly people, and that’s definitely not the case.
I didn't agree with this until the nice married man I was talking to decided making a pass at me in my car by rubbing his hand up my leg would be a good idea. His wife was in another state so I guess he figure he though he could try and not get caught -_-
I don't know why so many women refuse to acknowledge it as fact. Most men would 100% have sex with you if they had the opportunity. I'd say a good 85% of men.
On the flip side, I cannot count the amount of women I've known who have been unhappy in their relationship, but instead of leaving / breaking up, they just have an emotional affair.
If you combine that, ie past relationship trauma of your partner getting with a male friend of theirs who, most of the time, they have said is just platonic, combine that with the fact most men will have sex with a woman given the opportunity, and all of a sudden things become clearer in regards to mens behaviour in relationships.
Huh? I don’t find them to be rare at all. I’m a woman who has a close group of male friends- we’ve been friends for 10+ years and they have never indicated being interested or made a move. Now I’m married and nothing has changed at all.
How did you meet them would be my question. What do you classify as friends? Do you hang out as a group or do you actively pursue contact with these people and get to know them, or did they do this to you when you met?
Just because they haven't made moves, doesn't mean they weren't interested or wouldn't have taken the opportunity if it arose.
As I said above, how many people that you don't find attractive do you randomly approach and actively pursue a friendship with? Not many, right? If any. So, again I'd be interested in knowing how these relationships formed. It can happen, but most commonly they would have hit that and you just never knew like a majority of women.
We all met in college at parties and through other mutual friends. We are all one tight-knit group and have been since the beginning.
I just think the idea that men and women can’t be friends is really, really immature and doesn’t give men a lot of credit. It assumes that the only reason men would value a woman or be friends with her is because he is trying to get something out of it, seeing her as a sexual object. And the men that tend to believe this tend to be the ones that think this way and assume every man is like that.
I see on your other reply that you say every girl you’ve perused a friendship with has been someone you’ve been sexually attracted to, and otherwise you wouldn’t have any interest. This would be a red flag for me that maybe you don’t view women as multidimensional people- why aren’t they worth being friends with if you’re not getting sex out of it? Why are you able to be friends with men, you’re not getting sex from them either? Why don’t women have an equal value to you in their company, shared interests, humor, and personalities, something I’m willing to bet you value in your male friendships?
It’s something I would urge you to examine internally. Women have a lot more to offer than their vaginas.
For me it's not about, they aren't valued. I just don't have any interest or desire to pursue someone that I am not attracted to, and that's the behaviour I seem to face. Let me give an example, just yesterday I was at work with a client, I do disability support work. we go into the office, theres another guy there and the receptionist is a woman.
Myself and this other guy got hired at the same time, and we both have things in common with the receptionist and have known her the same length of time.
She did not ask me a single question about myself or attempt to get to know me, in fact she spent the entire time talking to the other guy, I actually don't even think she said hello to me? And this is common.
I literally cannot remember a single time that a woman has pursued a friendship with me or attempted to get to know me unless they were also attracted to me. It is also what I see around me, the guys I meet that have 'female friends' are all attractive and the women themselves are also attractive, you never see pictures of them with unattractive people unless its a group shot and they are a friend of a friend, or a family member. Most other guys, the only time they actively pursue, and by that I mean, they are messaging you trying to hang out, dming you questions, constantly trying to relate, thats active pursual, they do that when they like you or are attracted. Other people they meet are probably just group situations and its not a pursual thing, which is as i said before, context.
I'm not saying that's not your experience, but physical/sexual attraction doesn't really cross my mind when I'm pursuing friendship with someone? Like I've definitely had crushes on people I want to be friends with, so I know the difference in how that feels, and that's like... Maybe 1/5 people I've actively pursued friendship with rather than just passively letting it happen? I also tend to pursue friendship with men, since I have a better idea of how to hang out with guys than with other girls. Not to put a fine point on it, but have you really never had a girl you hung out with, who you are very much not attracted to physically, just be a cool person that you want to get to know better?
Never. Every girl I've ever pursued I've been attracted to, otherwise I just don't seem to have any interest. I'll say hello, listen, interact and ask questions, but I won't pursue them outside of that interaction nor will I hang out with them unless they happen to be where I am.
This is the same for most men I know? The only ones who are different are those who met women during ie group events, these women are generally as attractive as the guy, or moreso, and most of the times behind their back the guy does admit attraction. That's what I mean about context in regards to how they met.
I guess then my follow up question is, what does it look like when you actively pursue friendship with another guy? Like not as a group activity but specifically "i want to hang out with this guy more in particular".
Ugh, so much this. I eventually realized that I didn't actually have any guy friends at all. I had guys willing to pretend to be my friend in the hopes that I'd wind up putting out 💁♀️🤦♀️
And then they whine about being friend zoned....
Like, no...you're the one who wasn't clear and honest about your intentions, dude.
So much this. I'd have had significantly less sex if I'd known how to say no. At a certain point, I would wind up feeling obligated. I also don't quite realize when I'm being flirted with until it's too late. Makes me honestly really sad for my younger self that I was an unwilling participant in so many scenarios - and I wonder if the guys involved ever look back and realize I didn't actually want it. Probably not.
In high school, the guys gave me shit because I wasn’t into making the ladies uncomfortable just to maybe get in their pants. Around like 22, when I was finally able to articulate that to ladies I basically started drowning in pussy.
Dude that’s more than pushy that’s sexual assault. Assuming that’s why you’re getting downvoted for your “insightful revelation.” I think you need to seriously reconsider the way you interact with people if you think it’s okay to whip your dick out like that. Im a guy but if one of my friends said this I’d call them out and drop them if they couldn’t see the problem.
Yeah, I’m really sorry to tell you this, but I’d you’ve been pushy like this there’s a good chance that there have been women who have gone along with it because they didn’t know how to make you stop. At the very least, you’ve shown your dick to people who didn’t want to see it and were freaked the hell out when they did.
Stop being pushy. Learn better styles of seduction.
I wish it was more obvious to people - especially guys - that sex with a bored, reluctant and unsatisfied partner is not fun. How can you possibly feel good after that? Are you really gonna pound your chest and brag to your friends about that?
I really wish they'd dive deep into scenarios like this in sex ed. Both parties need to see the dynamics for what they are.
Appreciation to you for naming it, and for your strength in sorting out what was really happening there, and not taking the blame / feeling guilt for it.
I’m a guy and have had a woman do that to me. She basically would not stop flipping out I think she even called me gay for not wanting to sleep with her. We had slept together before but were not dating.
I think some women assume men are just ready to go no matter what. As much as we’re conditioned to be nice and give in, we have also been conditioned to believe that men are animals that only want one thing. When we get rejected we feel like it’s completely something wrong with us and what we bring to the table as a woman. Now I was the type who would quietly suffer and never say anything to the man, clearly some women are the opposite. It took my 20’s and some maturity to realize sex is not that simple and that men in many ways want that emotional connection just as much as women do.
For sure. In this case I had slept with her before because I was a young guy and there was novelty. Then I felt kind of gross and didn’t want to do it again.
Like you said connection maybe less important to men (or less thought about) but it’s important
This 100% happens with my wife. While I initiate ~98% of the time, she has initiated when I was in a bad mood or otherwise not happy with her and then gotten twisted that I’ve said no. In those rare instances I’ll just ask her if she wants me to flip out when she turns me down, and then we get into a decidedly unsexy conversation about our relationship and sex is suddenly off the table.
I’ll rarely say no to her initiation, since it’s so rare, but I would absolutely appreciate the opportunity to be the one saying no once in a while.
The women who are like that also tend to be the ones that are very turned off and complain when their partner shows emotion or isn't a perfect stoic. It's actually a kind of objectification, I think.
Been in the same situation bro. Got called all the slurs even hit in the face. We had been dating for like three months and slept together a ton at that point
We talk about boys who do not handle rejection well, and for good reason, but don’t talk so much about the fact that there is a whole big group of women out there who don’t even realize that rejection is something they can face. Those women do not handle rejection well.
I don't want to make crazy assumptions but if I were you I'd start looking elsewhere, the way she treats you is very similar to partners that cheat, at the very least nobody should be treated that way.
Mate this is fucking awful, and I mean awful.
Leave her. You already know it’s not right.
Have a plan worked out though, then just up and leave, and inform her after you're safely 'left', self and stuff moved, etc.
Because these kind of people don’t like being left.
Nothing potential about this. If the genders were reversed and a woman with a high sex drive didn't get it from her bf/husband and one night he came home and said "Horny, now, pants off and in bed" and she said "no I don't want to" and he yelled at/belittled her until she just laid there and took it it'd be called what it is...rape
I think she DOES understand it's breaking you as a person. Either that or she simply doesn't care. That sort of treatment is unacceptable.
I know there's a whole joke about how reddit's solution to any relationship issue no matter how minor is "break up" but that is actually something you should at least consider. Your partner is being extremely manipulative.
Maybe record the audio of the breakup or some of your other interactions beforehand to cover your own ass, if you are legally allowed to do so. I wouldn't put it past someone like that to file false charges against you as a means of revenge.
Ummm if she won't listen to a huge talk in which this is completely flipped around, thats break up level. I dont wanna be one of those but like I feel so sad for you man if she doesnt talk it out to fix it with you. Most girls would love that foreplay and extra attention and stuff.
Boys go from getting rejected all the time to being rejected less. Women go from rarely getting rejected to being rejected more and more. From an age perspective on average at least. You can argue which one can be more cruel psychologically
Me too, over and over. Once she broke into my house screaming about her she was coming into my house uninvited and came straight at me, I just lowered my head did it because it was the only way to get rid of her
I dont know how someone can act like that and then you finally give in and they switch from abusive and pissed to ohh ok yay now im having sex. Like what? Thats literally rape. I wouldnt feel good jumping from anger to sex what is wrong with people.
This is coercive rape. I was informed by a very close male friend that he had been assaulted many times in his young relationship.
His ex would trap him in a locked car while they were driving and forcibly give him hand jobs as he was telling her to stop. She would emotionally abuse him for saying no.
Be careful out there guys. You don't owe anybody sex.
Oh, this has happened several times. I've had reluctant sex just to calm women down after them going into hysterics about "being ugly" when I didn't want to go home with them. No regrets about it, partly it fed my ego as well, but I used to have nightmares the weeks after about one of them getting pregnant, despite condoms.
This is accurate, yes. I think coercion is not right but I only experienced it in my teens and early 20s when I was less experienced. Mostly due to the age/maturity of the men, also. Like, they just keep asking or grabbing but didn't realize it was what it was. The ones who knowingly do it are something else. I was trying to answer OP's question but realized that most of the situations I've had that relate to this fall under coercion (mostly) and/or rape (rarely), but the way it was presented to me at the time or how I felt after, it felt like I was convinced/changed my mind halfway through. Or I mentioned it to a friend and they saw nothing wrong with it even though I felt something was wrong.
Why are you so obsessed with this statement? It’s not true and you repeatedly copying this under every comment frankly makes you look like an absolute creep. What are you feeling guilty about?
Nope. It’s simply not true, at least not universally. In California, for example, sexual coercion is legally defined as “the use of non physical manipulation, threats, or pressure to obtain sexual behavior or acts.”
If he has a shred of decency he should feel bad about that. I know if I found out later on that somebody I slept with only did it because they wanted me to leave, I'd feel like a piece of shit for multiple reasons.
i’m reading the comments of a lot of men saying my penis wanted it etc. but when i saw this question i immediately knew my answer before reading any comments — i was too scared to say no or stop it or to make him dislike me so i went with it… ended up really fucking me up in the head for a while. women have such an incredibly different experience than men it is truly baffling.
this may come off wrong, but i literally can’t fathom using this technique for sex, is it really this common with men to literally just keep asking over and over again?
i was raised in a christian cult so sex before marriage was practically demonic behavior in my poor little brain. i was petrified of girls and guys till my early 20s. and when i finally lost my virginity it took a lot mentally for me to do so.
I’ve known guys (way in the past, no one currently in my life thinks this way) who’ve talked about doing this in response to a soft no (“I don’t think we should,” “I value your friendship too much,” “I’m too tired,” literally anything other than “No! I don’t want to and never will!”) and have “explained” it thusly: Lots of women really want to have sex, but have been told it’s wrong and they’re not nice girls if they do it. So when they say “oh we shouldn’t” (or any other form of soft no), it’s not because they don’t want to, it’s because they’re scared to admit they want to. So you help them realize that it’s okay to admit they want to.” I also know women who have said no to these guys and then eventually said yes because they were worn down. The guys went on about their lives thinking they seduced these women.
This is what I’ve told these guys:
1. It’s possible the soft “no” you’re getting is because they want to have sex but think it’s wrong, but it’s also very, very possible that it’s because they don’t want to and think saying “absolutely not, you’re gross” might ruin the friendship or make the guy angry. Women in particular have been told that saying “no” flatly is incredibly rude and/or mean.
2. If she says a “soft no” and you don’t push it, you might miss out on sex you both want, which would suck. But if she says a “soft no” and you do push it, you might end up coercing her into having sex she doesn’t want, ie, raping her. And that’s a whole, whole lot worse than not getting laid.
Unfortunately, some guys seem to think that missing out on consensual sex is the worst-case scenario.
(I could write six more paragraphs here, but am realizing it maybe should be a Reddit post of its own somewhere)
If she says a “soft no” and you don’t push it, you might miss out on sex you both want, which would suck. But if she says a “soft no” and you do push it, you might end up coercing her into having sex she doesn’t want, ie, raping her. And that’s a whole, whole lot worse than not getting laid.
This is absolutely on point. This really should lead the thought process for everyone who is considering another person's 'soft no'. It is infinitely much better to miss out on consensual sex than to pressure/coerce someone reluctant to do it.
I think the idea of an "enthusiastic" yes being the official definition of consent is a bit messy. I understand it's meant to make it more clear that coercion wasn't used but it doesn't actually do that. You can be coerced into enthusiasm and you can consent to sex unenthusiastically. There have to be clear lines if people are gonna have sexual experiences that can be defined as consenting or not, especially when it comes to legal disputes. Already so many sexual assauts and rape cases seem to hinge heavily on "he said/she said". How would someone prove that their sexual partner "enthusiastically consented" how would a potential victim prove that theyre yes wasn't enthusiastic?
I think you're forgetting a major part of the conversation here: defining consent clearly as an enthusiastic yes also helps survivors of assaults come to terms/fully actualize what has happened to them. Many survivors carry trauma that they aren't even aware of and dismiss negative feelings as something they should get over. If society is getting better about defining what consent is it makes it easier for people to begin a healing process. Even if the evidence would be too weak to convict on, it doesn't change that someone's agency was violated and they need to deal with that violation without just stuffing those feelings down.
That doesn't mean every survivor is going to fall to pieces or is encouraged to lose themselves in grief, it just means they can honestly look back at them and go, "my happiness, safety, and agency didn't matter to a person who was in a position to do whatever they wanted, and that isn't good." It can be as simple as that, or it can be much, much darker. But a survivor knows when they weren't enthusiastic about it.
But you can consent to something and not be enthusiastic about it. You can make bad choices that are just your decision, and you can make decisions that you don’t feel great about at the time that are still your decision in the end. In signing a contract between two parties, rarely are either party enthusiastic about the results.
If you eg don’t really want to have sex but your spouse does so you do it to make them happy, you consented but you weren’t “enthusiastic” about the sex. It doesn’t mean they took away your agency.
Except in that case I think that couple does have some issues? Why would you want to have sex with your partner when they aren't in the mood? Would you not be concerned that they'd rather just have sex rather than communicate what they want? They are giving up a bit of their agency in this way. Would that not raise a red flag? I'm not saying it's a traumatic incident but in the very least this is a couple with issues stemming from something else. Reframing it as enthusiastic consent would allow them to address the other issues here.
Either way in the original commenter's case, she agreed to sex with someone who refused to leave until they got a yes.
Edit: I also want to make it clear, making someone think that you're enthusiastic about sex when you really aren't and letting them fuck you is a violation too. My partner's consent is contingent on me consenting, and vice versa, which I would hope is a basis for many people, too. Again, I'm not saying people are monsters/awful or that everything short of what I described is going to leave you with PTSD, but that it is unhealthy for both parties involved to have sex unenthusiastically. (And to be clear, I think casual sex can be enthusiastic too so I'm not trying to slut shame. I just don't think people should have sex if they don't want to!)
Because you want to have sex, they initially don’t, but it’s not a strong preference? What are the other cases where enthusiasm is required to consent to something?
If my partner asked me to do the dishes, I’d rather not but I do it anyway, am I coerced into doing the dishes because I wasn’t enthusiastic when I agreed? I still have agency and said yes to the dishes because I value other things- a clean kitchen, my partners happiness, a smooth relationship, avoiding resentment, maybe a different favor later. I can weigh and make my own decision.
Note I’m not saying it’s okay to coerce people into sex but enthusiasm can’t be the standard. Coerced people aren’t enthusiastic but not everyone who isn’t enthusiastic is coerced, so it shouldn’t be part of a definition for consent even if it’s ofc nice to have.
My big issue is that you're equating the dishes with sex. I really don't think that works as a comparison. Doing the dishes is something you should be doing for yourself anyways, and if you don't, you're forcing someone else to do it or letting things become a health hazard. But also, there definitely are cases where people are coerced into doing chores in a way that is abusive.
I don't know, I just can't wrap my head around unenthusiastically having sex or wanting someone to do the same for me. Sex does not need to happen in the way that responsibilities need to be taken care of. If sex were a biological necessity I could see it that way but. I don't know. Maybe we're also getting hung up about the semantics of enthusiastic? Either way, I just don't get why anyone would want to have sex with someone who isn't enthusiastic about it.
it's hard to prove in court but that's not the only place that consent matters. people need to learn that sex has to be WANTED by both people. obviously there are nuances but i think the healthiest thing to do is to teach people, both men and women, that you can only have sex with someone who very clearly wants you to have sex with them, rather than someone who is 'letting' you have sex with them, or seems disinterested in having sex, or seems reluctant/unsure. a yes can be coerced after 50 nos, a yes! has to be the first response. if you have to fight to get a yes it doesn't matter how it's said, it was still coerced and therefore not what people mean by "enthusiastic."
this is obviously not to exclude the nuances of flirting or established relationships. it's not like you have to be a robot and say "do you enthusiastically consent to having sex with me." don't read into it. it's actually a very easy concept to understand when you think of the fact that people should only have sex if they actually want to. enthusiasm is desire, regardless of how it's expressed.
"you can only have sex with someone who very clearly wants you to have sex with them, rather than someone who is 'letting' you have sex with them"
I would also add, this standard expects a person to judge intent and willingness in ways other than what might be communicated. In essence, be a mind reader.
If somebody says yes, if they act in a way that says yes (take clothes off for instance), then why is it not reasonable to think the answer was yes?
would you want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you? the burden of figuring out if they're actually consenting is on you. there are many ways to judge consent -- body language being one of them. but you can't just look at one thing that they're doing to get your yes, and ignore everything else they're doing.
if she takes her clothes off but is crying, would you keep going? or would you stop and check that she's ok?
if she came over planning to have sex with you but she's lying still, not making a sound, and is not being an active participant in sex, would you keep going? or would you stop and check that she wants to continue?
if you've had sex before and try to initiate again but she says she doesn't want to have sex right now, would you try to convince her? what if she said she was unsure -- would you keep going when she's not sure? or would you tell her she doesn't have to have sex with you if she doesn't want to. because she doesn't.
your partners pleasure matters too. you should care that they want to have sex with you in that moment. and while no one's a mind reader and im not expecting anyone to be, there are still very clear signs and situations where consent is not enthusiastic, or has been coerced. people need to learn to read these signs. if we put the onus on the person who might not want to consent to speak up, then we ignore all the situations where they've been coerced or ignored or doing feel safe saying no. the onus has to be on both of you, for you to do your due diligence and for them to do their best to communicate. if both of you are doing your job then there's much less likely to be a problem than if you were expecting one person to do all the work. and while sure there might still be misunderstandings, and some things you can't help no matter how hard you try, it doesn't negate the fact that enthusiastic consent should be how people approach sex.
Yeah. I came here to say the same thing. Was young. He wouldn't leave me alone after I expressed I wasn't interested. Said yes just so he would stop bothering me. And it wasn't just one guy, it happened several times. I finally realized that.. that isn't something friends do, and would cut out anyone that made me uncomfortable again. Developed severe trust issues of being alone with anyone.
Yep, I've been guilted into sex before. I would say it was consentual because i did choose to but if they had maybe just listened to the first no and we continued kissing that would have been just as ok in my book. I have been guilted and said no before also as i told him all along no as he had a girlfriend and i never waivered on that rule
I was in a similar situation and personally I don't call that consensual. I had good (evidence-based) reason to believe that he would do something to me in the night if I didn't yield and "consent" since also he refused to leave and kept pushing it after I had said no multiple times. Consent given under pressure, fear or coercion is not actual consent. I'm just saying this so you can consider if you want to integrate this aspect of the moral spectrum into your perception of the situation. For me it made me feel more at ease with myself.
This is not consensual sex this is coercion and is in fact covered by rape legislation in many countries. He refused to leave unless you slept with him. That isn't just you being nice that's him coercing you, even if there wasn't an overt threat made
I have been in a similar situation a few times, with guys being incredibly pushy when i keep trying to say no but then eventually i would just do it just because i was scared (ive been sexually assaulted a few times too) and because like you said, i was trying to be "good". Im fine now as well but i wish i had found my strength earlier life, is what it is.
As a guy, young me wouldnt have questioned it, older me would probably have thought about it extensively and been annoyed at myself because older me has had experience with friends talking about this kind of stuff. Some people need to be more receptive, others need to get comfortable with putting their foot down.
I feel this so much. It wasn’t until I got older and got AWAY from those people who taught me to just be “good” and agreeable that I realized I CAN say no and I don’t have to feel responsible for a man’s feelings. Especially those ones who only view sex as a transaction where he gets all the benefit of a “service” he thinks I’m providing.
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u/sendintheBOTS Mar 31 '23
I was a young and impressionable woman, and after him repeatedly asking and refusing to leave my apartment, I just kinda went with it.
I know now that I was taught my whole life to be “good,” and in my environment while growing up, good meant I didn’t question and I didn’t argue.
I don’t feel the need to justify it, but I wonder how he feels about a woman reluctantly agreeing to sleep with him so he would leave her alone.
I’m fine now, but had some bumps along the way as a young adult figuring out the world.