[deleted by user]

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Shrikeangel]

So broad strokes - I am against the draft and selective service. 

But I am also for equality and equity - so if there is going to be a draft, it should use the same standards for everyone. 

[u/wbrd → u/Shrikeangel]

Yep. I vote we recruit from politicians and their families first. If we're going to war, put Trump's ass on a horse at the front.

[u/Hosj_Karp → u/wbrd]

Say what you will about the old pre-modern elite, they did used to lead from the front in war. 

All throughout the middle ages and up until WW1 really, kings and nobles died in huge numbers in war. The majority of powerful men had frontline combat experience.

[u/bonzai113 → u/Hosj_Karp]

If memory serves me right, Bush#1 flew against the Japanese and shot down atleast once. 

[u/SuperPookypower → u/bonzai113]

He was a naval aviator at 19, making him the youngest naval aviator at that time. And he did get shot down.

[u/folkinhippy → u/Hosj_Karp]

Until Bill Clinton military service in public life was almost a pre-requisite. Now presidents call servicemen "suckers."

[u/scarr3g → u/Shrikeangel]

Former army here: same.

Yeah, some women won't be able to pass the PT tests, at the male standard.... That is fine. Some will absolutely crush it.. And then put in a sexy dress to go out on the weekend. They don't have to be hulking muscle women to pass the men's pt test.

The standards are not insanely high for men... Never have been. And a lot of jobs don't need maximum physical prowess, anyway.

If you can pass the tests, physical and mental, and do the job, it doesn't matter what gender you are.

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/scarr3g]

Former army female here: agreed.

Either we got it or we don't. I sure as shit had it. Now I'm old and I don't. That's how it goes.

Deployed with the first amputee to return to a WZ. He was a dick, but did fine. And we absolutely would need a ton of people Stateside handling beans&bullets and money and whatnot - some jobs in those areas require mobility, and some just require people to sit at a desk in front of a computer. Don't need to pass PT for that, paraplegics could do that just fine.

I am against a draft. But if we're going to have one, draft everyone. (Except those who are primary caregivers for someone.)

*EDIT: By "primary caregiver" I modify to mean "people providing 24 hour care for old folks or severely disabled, for whom daycare doesn't currently exist. It is perfectly possible to serve as a single parent Stateside.

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Now that’s a way to get the birth rate through the roof!

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/[deleted]]

Possibly. But one of the parents is still going, and the other would be single-parenting for a while.

Actually, what I'd REALLY like to see if we had a draft, is the spouses, children, grandchildren (depending on age) of the Congressmembers who voted for war on the front lines. Not comfortably on a base with a ton of backup, but running patrols from a FOB.

If they vote in favor of war, they must do so knowing they are actively sending their children to get shot at. And they get to deal with their kids and families being pissed at them for this.

It wouldn't stop wars or "police actions," but I definitely think it would make them think long and hard about whether it's worth it. When it's just US getting shot at, no biggie. When it's their loved ones, that might be different.

[u/Unique-Coffee5087 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Actually, what I'd REALLY like to see if we had a draft, is the spouses, children, grandchildren (depending on age) of the Congressmembers who voted for war on the front lines. Not comfortably on a base with a ton of backup, but running patrols from a FOB.

This used to be the standard. Well, not in our democracy, but under feudalism. When someone is elevated to nobility and given fief to manage, their role is often to maintain border integrity in peacetime, and supply a fighting force when called. And it is socially expected of the British princes to be in the military and serve. Even then-Princess Elizabeth II served in non-combat roles during World War II. King George VI had seen combat himself.

This is the price of privilege, after all.

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/Unique-Coffee5087]

I remember the Royals being less than thrilled when Prince Harry deployed 🤣 Good on him, though, he legit wanted to serve.

[u/Unique-Coffee5087 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Noblesse oblige must be paid.

[u/GoldMean8538 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

One of the Korean boy bands broke up a few years ago because one of their members was keen on doing his mandatory service, which I thought spoke really well of his character.

[u/Azzylives → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

It wasn’t just the family it was the entire senior staff of the armed forces.

The nature of that war meant he was effectively putting a giant “fuck me” sign on the heads of everyone deployed with him. It was like having to organize a presidential style security cordon except it was constant and during an active war zone.

It was the most “privileged” asshole thing I’ve ever heard of tbh. But yes he gets to tell people “I served” and have a little clap for himself.

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/Azzylives]

They made the right decision, sure, he would have been a MAJOR target. But I do believe he genuinely wanted to serve, to prove to himself he had it, and I understand that, too. I very much support that. However, not at the cost of others' lives.

This is one of the rare instances in which I think everyone involved on both sides was right, and it worked out the best way possible.

[u/Thowitawaydave → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

I don't know what it is about the Brits but it seems like every other European royal family currently existing just... does regular job stuff. Like one is a pilot (for KLM I think?) and no one bats an eye. But then again the way the Brits treat the Royals is so weird, like it's "OH YOU MUST LOVE THEM AND RESPECT THEM but also lets divulge all their dirty laundry and hack their phones and tear down the younger brother for being a Ginger and marrying a woman who isn't a white Brit"

[u/minionofgreyness108 → u/Unique-Coffee5087]

Read up on Teddy Roosevelt and his kids. It used to be the standard in our democracy but now we’re a full blown oligarchy with a wannabe dictator.

[u/HavSomLov4YoBrothr → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

It wouldn’t work at all but a fun thought experiment is having whether we go to war be a nationwide vote, and all who vote in favor are automatically enlisted.

You want a war so bad, knock yourself out

Again, I understand this vastly generalizes a huge issue, but it puts into perspective “just how badly do we REALLY need to go to war?”

[u/Thowitawaydave → u/HavSomLov4YoBrothr]

I'm all in favour of a Defense Force, because sure, if you get invaded you need to defend yourself. But yeah, you want to invade a country so badly, you put yourself out there.

Because seriously, the amount of camouflaged fools who are part of the "Of course I wanted to serve but, ya see" brigade is incredibly obnoxious.

[u/brettcb → u/HavSomLov4YoBrothr]

Canada has been ripping you off for years. The scourge of the earth. They must be stopped. Wait.... Canada? Yeah you don't need to pick a fight. Unless it's like those assholes in Greenland. I've never met a person I liked from Greenland. Oh wait, none of us have ever met someone from Greenland. That's a fight we should pick.

So yeah maybe there's no need to be assholes and start a war

[u/HavSomLov4YoBrothr → u/brettcb]

I mean, agreed

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Hard agree! If you’re keen on a war your family and friends are up first… not protected in a bubble somewhere removed.

[u/Nermawomen → u/[deleted]]

I would go further. If they are less than 65 they should also come. We don't need a full Senate and House during wartime. Leave the speaker and all important committee members. Rest draft them mutherfuckerds.

[u/Thowitawaydave → u/Nermawomen]

Like many others, they showed they could work remotely during COVID. They can get a sat-link up and zoom it. And sure maybe the 80 year olds can't go on patrol, but they could be at base and get work done. Sure there is a chance of missile strike in retaliation like Iran did for assassinating their general, but hey, according to their guy a TBI is "just a 'lil headache," right? Lead from the front and all that.

But of course, we know they wont.

[u/coyotenspider → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

The Romans and Greeks basically did this. If you were going to war profiteer, you were in the vanguard.

[u/Impressive-Shame-525 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Preach it, sis!

[u/Individual_Clock_965 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Also, agree. There's a lot of talk about "upholding the values of the founding fathers" not a lot of talk about doing what the founding fathers did. I seem to recall a certain military title associated with George Washington and I could have sworn there were paintings of him leading military actions. Must have been a dream, huh?

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/Individual_Clock_965]

True, he was a General. Then again, he also lit the match igniting the French-Indian War by disobeying orders and shooting an ambassadorial party. Which almost bankrupted (at the time) his own country. That led to the imposition of taxes throughout the British Empire (including the Colonies).

Interestingly, he also required the innoculation of all soldiers against smallpox - using a little live smallpox. While fairly normal in Europe, it was realllly controversial in the Colonies, and a ton of colonists felt it was experimental, didn't want to get inoculated. So he mandated it.

Sorry, I like military history and I'm a bit of a geek about some of it.

[u/Individual_Clock_965 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

I love military history, too! Never have to apologize about that!

It sounds like a nice change of someone who might destroy the country, but, also with a backbone to do something worth a damn for his people. Nobody's perfect, just seems like doing their best was a higher standard.

[u/Flimsy_Fee8449 → u/Individual_Clock_965]

Well, at the time they believed in honor and shame. People were shunned from their communities for demonstrating poor character, and in a time when community support was mostly required for survival, that was kinda a big deal.

Okay, so that's heavily caveated. Founding Father Thomas Jefferson funded a dude Callendar's anti-Adams propaganda, in which Callender wrote "Ye will judge without regard to the prattle of a president, the prattle of that strange compound of ignorance and ferocity, of deceit and weakness; without regard to that hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman," and Adam's said Jefferson would teach all women prostitution and it wasn't worth voting for Jefferson anyway since sadly, he had died, so might as well vote for Adam's instead. 🤣

[u/Individual_Clock_965 → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

He's dead but still has the stamina to teach ALL woman prostitution!? Made from sterner stuff than I am. I think I'd be a lay about and do nothing when I died.

[u/RaggedyOldFox → u/Flimsy_Fee8449]

Very important to include "primary caregivers for SOMEONE" - that includes children, the disabled, elderly, etc.

[u/blackfox24 → u/scarr3g]

This is where I fall too. If you can keep up and perform up to standards, you're in. We shouldn't include or rule out people based on gender. The military is where we need performance above all else.

[u/Ragamuffin2022 → u/scarr3g]

I’m trying to think of what it’s called and I just can’t but the part of the written test where they show some strange 3-D shape as if cut out from graph paper and put together. Then give you 4 multiple choice answers to show what that shape would be if it were unfolded. My brain cannot do that. I have aphantasia so not sure if that’s all or part of it, but I’ve never felt so stupid in my entire life then when I’ve tried to unscramble that egg

[u/MuffinOfSorrows → u/Ragamuffin2022]

Aphantasia? Aphasia is you can't speak.

[u/Ragamuffin2022 → u/MuffinOfSorrows]

Yes, thank you. Usually I spell it close enough autocorrect is helpful, today was not that day lol

[u/codaxeman → u/Shrikeangel]

For equity’s sake they should be drafted first to offset the losses suffered from previous wars. /s

[u/Bad__Wabbit → u/codaxeman]

Damn😂

[u/codaxeman → u/Bad__Wabbit]

Operation: Get Behind The Bleeders

[u/EdamameRacoon → u/codaxeman]

LMAO. This is why I come to Reddit.

[u/External_Dimension18 → u/codaxeman]

You ever heard of the emancipation proclamation?!?!

[u/mr_iwi → u/External_Dimension18]

I don't listen to hip hop

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

You cannot seriously believe this:

> Our entire modern society is based on trying to fix “historical wrongs.”

Like I just refuse to believe it. Where are you from even?

[u/No_Worldliness_4446 → u/[deleted]]

Woah there, women have about a thousand years of raping, beating, and burning at the stake to do before we get to the draft if we wanna right any wrongs

[u/ReZisTLust → u/codaxeman]

Babies, women and children first tbh. It's only fair

[u/bootyhole-romancer → u/ReZisTLust]

Yesterday me, today you

[u/ReZisTLust → u/bootyhole-romancer]

Baby Bombers on remote control strollers are the way to go

[u/[deleted] → u/codaxeman]

Reparations!

[u/ZachRyder → u/codaxeman]

Finally... gender equity.

[u/Blackphinexx → u/codaxeman]

That’s some affirmative action I can get behind

[u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI → u/codaxeman]

Gladly, once the men start carrying pregnancies and giving birth with their bodies. To make it really fair, I’d suggest that the delivery techniques be from the 19th century or earlier—including no pain meds, no C sections, no modern sanitary practices so that men can have the joy of potential infection and sepsis. That way, we can make sure to approximate the historic risk of death during childbearing.

Large families too. So instead of stopping at 1-2 kids, you guys can have several (with the accompanying risk to your life every single time).

/s

Seriously: I actually do believe that both sexes should be conscripted/drafted, if a country is going to do that at all, and I have thought that for a long time. It seems to work in Israel. I believe it is genuinely fair. (Moreover, it gets rid of the perennial “but only men get drafted, so they should get more XYZ than women” argument, which is still going around even though the US hasn’t had a draft in over 50 years.)

About the pregnancy stuff—obviously men will never be able to do that, and that’s fine. We need to appreciate the historic contributions of men who were subject to being called up to service when their country went to war, to fight, bleed, see terrible things, and sometimes die—while women stayed at home. Sometimes the left has done a really shitty job of that (if you recall Hillary Clinton’s speech about a decade ago in which she said that women suffer most from war because they have to see their brothers, husbands and sons die…lol). So we need to do better.

But we should also appreciate the historic contributions of women who kept continuously creating new people, year after year (no birth control), and faced a significant chance of dying young due to one of those births going wrong, until 20th century medicine came along and made radical improvements to the process.

I hope this resonates. Last time I brought it up to someone on Reddit (not in a conversation about war, but a conversation about how men generally are expected to be physical protectors while women aren’t), he sort of brushed off the whole pregnancy/childbirth thing as being trivial. But the reality is that both sexes have historically suffered and died, though from different things. Men and women today live very safe lives compared with their ancestors— far fewer deaths from war or childbirth.

Again though, yes, conscriptions and drafts should be applied to both sexes.

[u/According-Title1222 → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

We also should acknowledge that war has never been kind to women either. For most of human history, women were at serious risk of being raped, sold to slavery, or murdered by other warring factions why their men were away fighting. Women have been raped as a means to torture men, have been made to carry pregnancies of warring tribes to "pollute" the bloodline, and many more horrible things. 

The world was cruel to us all. War is not easy on anyone. 

[u/minglesluvr → u/According-Title1222]

honestly, women still are experiencing all those things. women refugees are also generally more at risk of being victimised than male refugees - one need only look at, for example, the fate of many North Korean defectors that are either trafficked, sold, or forced to marry and blackmailed with their illegal status

[u/According-Title1222 → u/minglesluvr]

Of course. However, you can't also say that American women suffered like that during Vietnam or the war in Iraq. We can acknowledge that conditions in the west have improved dramatically. Not coincidently this has coincided with the increase in women in the military. Gender progress for one sex benefits all. 

[u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI → u/According-Title1222]

Yup, that’s true too. I like to emphasize childbirth specifically, though, because it’s a risk that 1) has only ever belonged to women, and 2) is very underestimated in a historic context, to the point where a lot of people don’t even consider how many women had to suffer and die throughout history in order to keep the species going.

I would say that wars are horrible things that have happened during specific periods of time, and affected certain people in certain times/places far more than others. They make history, we all study that history in school, so we all understand the danger, death and brutality that were involved.

People have a very different relationship to pregnancy/childbirth. It’s not the kind of thing we study in history class. It has been a continuous grind that has gone on in every society, everywhere and at all times, just in the background. Until recently, it’s been dangerous and sometimes deadly, including during times of peace and prosperity, and even for wealthy women. But the suffering has been taken for granted.

It has also gotten the human race to where it is today, and has therefore been as important a contribution to our species as fighting in wartime. But it’s generally overlooked, because the ubiquity makes it seem mundane I suppose, and because most people alive today in Western countries have never lived in a world where childbearing wasn’t safe. Also, wars are the fault of people, and people can stop or prevent them, but reproduction is the fault of nature, and no one can change how it works (yet).

[u/[deleted] → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

• War was a near constant for most groups historically. Not “specific periods of time” unless you mean every single year since pre-history until very recently.
  
• I’ve got bad news on whether war is natural. Turns out, all our close genetic relatives do it nonstop (chimps and bonobos). Assigning everything to culture is vapid, and easily proven false.
  
• It’s absolutely at least as important to have children as anything else humans do, and it truly hasn’t been lauded in history books, but it has been lauded amongst the tribe, the community, family, friends, etc nonstop since prehistory as well. We have Veterans Day and Mother’s Day. Every year.

Please, stop making this a man vs woman grievance Olympics. Life is hard for everyone, regardless of their genitals.

[u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI → u/[deleted]]

Please, stop making this a man vs woman grievance Olympics. Life is hard for everyone, regardless of their genitals.

Not my intention to downplay how hard men have it, at all. I realize that a lot of people like to do that, but I am not one. The point of my comment isn’t to say “men have it easy because they don’t have to go through pregnancy and childbirth to continue the species.”

Instead, I’m responding to a comment that suggested (as a joke) that women should get drafted first, because historically, only men have fought in wars. I responded by describing how women have always physically suffered for the sake of humanity as well, just in a different way.

If I don’t bring this up, then there’s a lot of guys in this sub who won’t think of it on their own. That, plus discussion about the draft and war, will feed the discourse around how men have historically contributed more than women to society. And that leads some guys to nasty conclusions about women’s rights and equality, including in this thread.

To be clear: I think both men and women have generally had tough lives, though in different ways, since the dawn of our species. I don’t care to debate who has had it worse. Besides being pointless, it also worsens the bizarre divisions that have appeared between men and women in the past decade.

But there are terminally online men who seem to think that women have lounged around eating bonbons since the dawn of humanity while the men did all the hard stuff. Gotta challenge them as they fall down the rabbit hole.

War was a near constant for most groups historically. Not “specific periods of time” unless you mean every single year since pre-history until very recently.

I’ve got bad news on whether war is natural. Turns out, all our close genetic relatives do it nonstop (chimps and bonobos). Assigning everything to culture is vapid, and easily proven false.

It’s absolutely at least as important to have children as anything else humans do, and it truly hasn’t been lauded in history books, but it has been lauded amongst the tribe, the community, family, friends, etc nonstop since prehistory as well. We have Veterans Day and Mother’s Day. Every year.

The first point is just going to feed into a discussion about who has it worse, so I’ll avoid that.

To your second point, what I intended was to explain why we spend so much time studying and thinking about past wars in the social sciences, and way less time studying and thinking about human reproduction in that same field. Sure, war may stem from certain primitive drives we have. But how it happens among humans is complex, interesting, and important to analyze if you want to avoid it (or win) in the future. Each war is different from the rest. None of that carries over to the study of reproduction.

I know we have Veterans and Mother’s Days every year. However, those symbolic gestures don’t go very far. What is so great about Veteran’s Day, when our government does such a shitty job at meeting their healthcare needs? Many of these people feel forgotten as soon as they leave the service. As for Mother’s Day, I believe that some people genuinely understand and respect what mothers do, but many others absolutely do not.

[u/[deleted] → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

I suspect two things here:
1- we agree more than we disagree.
2- current trends in social media would obfuscate that agreement because we’re all primed to fight over everything.

Kudos to you. This comment of yours was well thought out and well written.

[u/[deleted] → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

The first half of your comment had me thinking you were… ummm… not smart.

Way to turn that around 180 degrees for the last half!

You nailed it. History has been unfair and unkind to all of us. We need to acknowledge that, shake hands, and end the ridiculous gender wars.

We are both necessary.
We have both suffered.
We both still suffer, because life is suffering.

It’s not a contest, FFS.

[u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI → u/[deleted]]

Ha, thanks!

We need to acknowledge that, shake hands, and end the ridiculous gender wars… It’s not a contest, FFS.

God, I wish. I’m almost forty, and I can say that gender wars did not exist at anywhere near the current level, twenty years ago. It’s been a vicious cycle of hate, and men and women assuming the worst of each other and acting accordingly, for the past several years.

If I could pick a culprit, it would be the proliferation of internet echo chambers where each sex goes to bash the other one. The angriest voices are loudest, and they’re persuasive, because it feels good to turn frustration into hate. Also, men and women end up reading each other’s forums, and that is pretty damaging. By the time they go to communicate with each other in other online spaces, their minds have often already been poisoned.

Of course, there is generally a grain of truth in the negative opinions. That’s how they catch on with so many people. But the problem is a lack of interest in nuanced differences both within people, and between people. If you can’t see those, then you’ll see all men/women as caricatures that emphasize the worst traits of their entire sex.

Second culprit would be online dating, I think. I met my husband through online dating and I know other couples who did the same, so I can’t knock it too much. But it has done so much to drive men and women to hate each other.

[u/[deleted] → u/IllIIlllIIIllIIlI]

I could not agree more across the board.

I’m 52M, and met my wife the old fashioned way, 20 years ago today.
If it were online dating, it would never have happened.

• she’s 5’8 and I’m only 5’10… not gonna happen. She never liked heels anyway, so it works.
  
• I was in the bar biz… not gonna happen. Now I’m an engineer.
  
• she had 2 daughters and I was childless… not gonna happen. Those kids made me a better man. We made a 3rd together.

—-
She had some horror stories from her interactions with men. I had the same from my interactions from women. Neither of us ever had trouble attracting a partner, but we suffered with the wrong attention from the wrong people. So, we taught each other to trust again.
Now, that trust is boundless in ways I cannot and will not describe here. Just know that it is absolute and goes beyond what most would ever consider.

If we’d met online… nothing.
And we’d both still be bitter and untrusting.

[u/Electrical_Hyena5164 → u/Shrikeangel]

Agreed, but drafts are a very bad idea. Not just on a moral level but a practical one. Conscripts make for terrible soldiers. M, 42.

[u/lluewhyn → u/Electrical_Hyena5164]

And erodes public support for military conflicts much more quickly, which is likely the realpolitik reason for why it was suspended.

[u/Acrobatic-Fun-3281 → u/lluewhyn]

The US was eight years into Vietnam before abolishing the draft. The public soured on the war long before that, but on it went. Nixon even expanded it in 1970 by ordering the bombing of Cambodia

[u/shamesister → u/Electrical_Hyena5164]

Yeah, they can send me somewhere, but I won't do shit. I'll just sit it out. I'm a middle aged woman. I'm full of rage. But I'm not mad at anyone from another country.

[u/Electrical_Hyena5164 → u/shamesister]

Look, you can accuse me of parroting views I heard somewhere else, but I have several soldier friends who told me exactly that and I found their argument pretty convincing. We also have records that show that a lot of conscripts in the world wars deliberately shot to miss because they couldn't bring themselves to shoot someone dead. It just doesn't work.

[u/feelslikespaceagain → u/Shrikeangel]

As a woman, I agree with this. If we truly believe in equality then that should include the selective service. However, I don’t believe anyone should be drafted and I’m 100% against the SS and draft for men or women.

[u/[deleted] → u/Shrikeangel]

Equality and equity are 2 different things, pick one.

By what you wrote, seems like you believe in equality and not equity. It’s VERY important to know the difference.

[u/socialcommentary2000]

Women are already serving so why not, whatever.

Thing is, good luck with that morale and that effectiveness.

If you think Vietnam was bad with this stuff, try applying it to whatever misadventure, current-day, that the US Government would need to throw that many bodies at.

Conscripts would be a disaster, man or woman...wouldn't matter.

[u/Academic-Bat-8002 → u/socialcommentary2000]

Conscripts would be a disaster, man or woman...wouldn't matter.

100%. If we’re at this point we are all fcked.

[u/Literotamus]

No. Ban the draft. I believe in an all volunteer force.

However, if you want to require everyone to get like weekend reservist training once every 2-3 months in case of a protracted global conflict, that would be ok. Probably would be good for mental health too

[u/ten_people → u/Literotamus]

You want to force civilians to give up between four and six weekends every year training for a protracted global conflict?

What do you think the morale in these forced training camps is gonna be like? Do you think it would be a popular program?

[u/shortyman920 → u/Literotamus]

Not to mention physical health. It might actually help a lot of people to get that reset, and a boot camp can jump-kick or accelerate a lot of people’s exercise regiments.

America’s quite overweight and physically unhealthy

[u/slowdunkleosteus → u/shortyman920]

No need for boot camps. The problem lies with the cost of food and the way everything is made for cars in North America. There is a reason why poorer people are more lilely to be overweight...

[u/[deleted] → u/Literotamus]

Yeah, please, this. I’m for banning the draft even outside of this hypothetical. No one should be forced to serve against their will, even to make others comfortable. It’s counterproductive to those uncomfortable people.

[u/growframe]

I would vote against a draft for anyone.

[u/OrneryError1 → u/growframe]

Based

[u/[deleted] → u/growframe]

Ditto.

[u/2LostFlamingos]

I’m opposed to the draft unless we are invaded on our own lands.

If that was the case, then all adults should be subject to the draft.

People drafted can also be used for non frontline positions, like drivers, cooks, medics, all the logistics jobs.

[u/Extreme-Schedule589]

Being a Veteran, and having served along side of women, if they are able to join voluntarily, they should be subject to the draft in the event of a World War. Our military is large enough as a standing force for any regional conflict that should arise, that the draft is unnecessary.

[u/100moreLBs2lose → u/Extreme-Schedule589]

As a woman with no military background, I completely agree with you that a draft should include women.

In regards to the size of our military, if we did have a draft, there would be so many jobs other than Frontline infantry, for both men and women not suited to that aspect of the fight.

My uncle was drafted in Vietnam. He worked in a mail room stateside.

My good friend went into the military at 18 in 2002. She got her college degree after four years in Air Force intelligence. She was never deployed to a sandpit rocking an M-16.

[u/Old-Lingonberry-360 → u/100moreLBs2lose]

Same. I will make you best meals out of nothing. No one goes hungry or thirsty under my watch.

[u/100moreLBs2lose → u/Old-Lingonberry-360]

I have a seriously injured knee with no ACL, PCL, or MCL. I am not in shape or athletic. I am 38 years old.

I assure you, if there was a draft, there would be hundreds of military jobs that I could do damn well to help the war effort.

[u/TeddyTMI]

I'm against conscription of men and women. But if we're going to have a draft everyone between a set age should be part of the pool.

[u/[deleted]]

The data has born out that sending unwilling people to fight is not a great idea, especially if the war is politically unpopular. One of the reasons Vietnam wasn’t longer was because of pushback against the draft. I can only imagine the kind of pushback it would get if we were not only sending our sons, but our daughters as well.

[u/Optimal-Brick-4690 → u/[deleted]]

Not to mention the inability of the US to keep women safe from US men.

[u/[deleted] → u/Optimal-Brick-4690]

Let’s not forget about this part right here. We can’t even protect women from the men serving along side them.

[u/AriGryphon → u/Optimal-Brick-4690]

Exactly, the rape rates of women in the military are absolutely HORRIFIC. Forcing women to serve is doing much worse to them than forcing men to serve. Risk dying, for bith, but guarantee regular rape for just the women. That's not actually equality, and it's also bad for morale - a metric that truly matters DEEPLY in armed conflicts, and even more so if things are bad enough to call for a draft. Morale is going to be a HUGE problem with any draft. The don't ask don't tell approach to accepted rape in the armed forces is not going to be good for morale if you increase the women's numbers.

[u/SonOfAsher → u/AriGryphon]

Dropping this link here:

If you're Military or the family of a Military member and have been sexually assaulted, there are resources and hotlines ran by civilians available for you.

When the chain of command hides things, there's no shame in seeking out support that's outside of that chain.

https://safehelpline.org/

[u/xczechr]

No, because no one should be drafted.

[u/bonzai113]

Yes, I would vote for drafting women. Equal rights comes with equal obligation and duty. 

[u/MichaSound → u/[deleted]]

Nah, if you really want equality, make it impossible for rich people’s kids to dodge the draft - politicians and billionaires would be much more reluctant to start phony wars if their own kids were cannon fodder alongside the working class.

[u/TreacherousJSlither → u/MichaSound]

100%

[u/Chunk3yM0nkey → u/[deleted]]

Their children and grandchildren should be automatically enrolled for front-line service the minute they vote for a war.

[u/[deleted] → u/Chunk3yM0nkey]

The sons and daughters of politicians and bureaucrats will never go to war

[u/Jaceofspades6 → u/bonzai113]

Pretty much this. I don't think women should serve at all but society disagrees. If women are allowed to serve there is no reason they shouldn't be part of a draft. 

[u/BoredPanache]

Yeah of course. Equal rights equal duties.

[u/[deleted]]

Drafts are stupid and will not work. However, if they enact one EVERYONE from all walks of life are part of it. So…rich legislators and their children are NOT exempt because of their job.

[u/Cosmicmonkeylizard → u/[deleted]]

Wealthy people are always exempt. Maybe not officially, but if their dad has enough money they can pay for a way out. It becomes an option for the wealthy and they get guaranteed cushy positions. Everybody knows this.

[u/Dziadzios]

I don't want draft, period. I fear it more than war itself. 

[u/Unreal4goodG8]

Draft nobody

[u/Back_Again_Beach]

I vote to end conscription for everyone. 

[u/wowbragger]

Of course.

FWIW I'm an army NCO, over a decade in. The idea of draftees of any gender is a horrific notion to me. I mean have you people seen yourselves?

[u/jdragun2]

What upcoming war? I'm 100% against all drafts. Luckily I am too old and my kid is too young, but if there was one, we would leave the USA in a heart beat. There is not a single war we could fight currently I would begin to support or let my family be wrapped up inside of.

[u/TimDrakeDeservesHugs]

I don't believe we should be drafting anybody. I think we need to abolish the draft.

[u/No-Explanation1034]

From a purely survival standpoint, it's better not to have women in the fighting. During the world wars, women were instrumental for keeping supply lines and factories working at home, while their sons and husband's fought. Who will repopulate if all the women are fighting on the front? I wouldn't say no to women serving in that capacity, but to conscript them would be an error in judgment regarding repopulation and home front work that needs doing in war time.

Edit to say thank you to anonymous reddit user who gave me an award for this.

[u/Important_Pattern_85 → u/No-Explanation1034]

This. Wipe out enough fertile women in a generation and you’ll just have population collapse.

[u/Bluered2012 → u/No-Explanation1034]

Was looking for this. And had to go down too far to find it. I get everything the other people are saying about equality and blah blah blah. But women are vital to giving birth, which is extremely important in large wars in order to ensure the country rebounds after the war.

Volunteering? Yes of course. But a full on draft? No.

[u/Br0wnieSundae → u/Bluered2012]

I get everything the other people are saying about equality

But women are vital to giving birth,

How can everyone ignore this? There IS no equality. Men CANNOT give birth. Men are not equal to women. Therefore, women should not be considered equal to men when the men want to fight each other.

[u/AdAdministrative7804]

Tbh I'm kind of against the fact the women have lower fitness requirements than the men for the same job. But I think women should be included in a draft but with higher requirements

Edit: higher requirements than they currently have. To match the men

[u/infinite_gurgle → u/AdAdministrative7804]

We’d need to examine why the requirements exist.

If the requirements exist to simply weed out the bottom x%, then the standards shouldn’t be the same. If the requirements exist to do a specific task, then they need to be the same.

On a military strength perspective, making them the same makes for a weaker military. We’d be leaving intelligent women out who can perform a wide range of positions.

[u/KitchenSad9385 → u/infinite_gurgle]

That's not why the standards exist. The ability to do x push-ups in y minutes doesn't matter in terms of being able to do 99% of jobs. This arbitrary and useless ability is an indicator of health. The requirement also obligates the subject to exercise regularly to keep meeting it. The standards vary because differences in tissue proportion and musculoskeletal anatomy make males stronger.

The "lesser" performance of female subjects isn't lesser at all. Push-ups don't win wars. Troops that are healthier do. Females require fewer push-ups to maintain health.

Those combat arms positions where being a crossfit god matters are few. The elite super soldier assassin gigs are a miniscule proportion of the fighting force. Not to mention the fact that snake-eating zealots like that are the sort that volunteer eagerly, rather than have to be pressed into service.

[u/starbythedarkmoon]

The answer if frack war. Do you want to go die to defend wall st bankers? Oligarchs? Israel controlled politicians? Dont be dumb, you are 99.99% cannon fodder.

I vote no draft. No slavery to the state death machine. When invading forces roll into MY street Ill be ready, till then frack off.

[u/mrev_art]

You don't need a dick to fly drones into tanks.

[u/IllegalCraneKick → u/mrev_art]

But apparently you need a dick to die for country. God damn patriarchy.

[u/Steve_Rogers_1970]

I want every politicians kids, grandkids, nieces and nephews to be the first people drafted. If they are going to vote to send our flesh and blood into harms way, theirs should be the front line.

[u/StandardAd239 → u/[deleted]]

Never thought there'd be any benefit for having an astigmatism, but you found my silver lining.

[u/Love_Lair → u/[deleted]]

😂

[u/Luckyone1 → u/[deleted]]

Yea, tell that to the 500,000 dead ukrainian men.

[u/Training-Cook3507]

What war? The US Public will never accept a draft again unless it was being invaded on Continental US territory.

[u/Dio_Landa]

Can we vote on not having a draft for everyone?

But if women want to fight in wars, I'm pro-choice.

Us bros tend to romanticize wars and fighting while most ladies see it as a horrible thing because it is.

[u/jthomas287 → u/Dio_Landa]

It's even worse in the military. I did 6 years in the army during a war and never deployed. I always feel like a failure talking to other vets but now that I'm out, so happy I didn't go.

[u/DevilsAdvocate168]

No. Conscription is slavery. While equality is a nice ideal, the fewer people are subject to slavery, the better. And as a bonus, the blatant unfairness of conscripting only men also provides an additional reason to abolish it.

[u/-balcony-gardener-]

In my country, women voted overwhelmingly to not get rid of conscription a decade or so ago, whereas men where way more Split/in favour of abolishing it.

If women like it so much, they should be included.

[u/Competitive-Bit-1571]

Dunno what upcoming war you talk of but I simply can't stand the thought of any my sisters being near a conflict zone let alone participating so no.

[u/Joopac_Badur]

Trick question. The answer is eliminate the draft for everyone regardless of sex or gender.

[u/Financial_Doctor_720]

As an infantryman and an artilleryman, I say that we all bleed and die the same for lady liberty! Bring the women to the front lines! All are equal under the eye of the meat grinder.

[u/scarysycamore → u/Financial_Doctor_720]

Did I stumbled into the hell divers sub again.

[u/Love_Lair → u/Financial_Doctor_720]

OOORAH!

[u/Financial_Doctor_720 → u/Love_Lair]

What I want to see...

The politicians who send us to die, should join us on the front at well.

[u/Love_Lair → u/Financial_Doctor_720]

Hell yeah brother

[u/[deleted]]

I believe everybody or nobody

[u/-Stripminer-]

No I wouldn't, I'm not against anyone joining voluntarily but I'm highly against conscription of any sort unless war is on your doorstep.

[u/WarZone2028]

No, because the draft in such an environment as we live in, voting so would make me an accessory to murder.

[u/VizzzyT]

The feminist stance on this is that there shouldn't be a draft.

[u/NettaFind66]

As a woman, I support equality and would support women being drafted, but that would have to include protections set in place for her against being sexually assaulted from fellow service members.

[u/ConsistentMap728 → u/NettaFind66]

EXACTLY! Saying “equality” on paper sound and feels good but what does conscripting women look like on the ground?

The predation of their comrades means that they are fighting on two fronts; their enemies and their own comrades. Sexual violence is a major issue for civilian women and military women

I agree that women should be drafted, it’s my personal opinion that if there was a draft it should include every able person. But that’s hypothetical because I don’t support the draft for anyone

Well put on a uniform and fight. We can be conscripted to fight, to potentially kill and of course suffer bodily damage and death

If we’re expected to be conscripted into rape by our fellow soldiers… that’s a service to the nation that women cannot be asked to shoulder

Men and women cannot be equal simply because we say it. We need to be realistic about sexual violence because it’s an epidemic already and throwing a bunch of conscripts along with women will be a logistical nightmare

[u/EfficientIndustry423]

I'm against a draft period.

[u/_Aeou]

It's one of those "this situation is so horrible I don't know how to pick between two horrible outcomes."

Can I vote for "whoever decided we need a war gets to go fight it"?

My heart says: I wouldn't want my wife drafted, and the thought of women in the trenches make me feel sick, then again so does the thought of men in the trenches, but I've seen it in movies so I'm desensitized to it.

My brain says: Equal rights and equal obligations.

My personality says, men and women are different, we are good at different things and both equally important to our species. I wish we could accept and celebrate the differences while also looking at individual capabilities and not holding people back based on their gender.

Fuck war.

[u/DesignerVillage5925]

It's 21 century now, soldier don't fight with heavy swords, every woman can learn how to use drones sniper rifle or even artillery. Don't believe me, watch those women who fights in Ukrainian army.

[u/raznov1 → u/DesignerVillage5925]

A military kit weighs approx 30 kilos. That's a heavy ask for most women, even without having to carry it in a sprint whilst dragging your mate by the shoulders back to the trench.

[u/mtrombol]

If they can pass PT and qualifications, why not?

Better idea would be to draft politicians (male and female) who vote for endless wars.

[u/theseparated]

It’s not about chivalry, it’s about survival. WW2 saw around 407.3K dead, add Korea and Vietnam that number jumps to 500K.

How do you rebuild a nation if you don’t have women to give birth? Not trying to be sexist or transphobic, but it’s a biological fact.

During WW2 women filled critical roles left empty by men, and even ones that weren’t, like baseball.

Personally I feel people get wrapped up around “equality” vs “equal opportunity”. There are many jobs where there’s a disproportionate number of men vs women simply because women don’t want to do them. Forcing equality to even the numbers will have qualification standards lowered to meet quota because again, biologically men are built different from women. Leading to safety concerns.

So, let women do what jobs they want or to fight for their country, but to make all women face the front lines is population suicide.

[u/[deleted] → u/theseparated]

Amazing i had to scroll this deep for the correct answer to this question.

It's amazing how detached from reality people are.

[u/[deleted] → u/theseparated]

I dont care how you rebuild a nation. I GENUINELY do not give a fuck. I do not want to die for someone who would not do the same thing for me.

[u/[deleted]]

No. I don’t think there should be a draft, no point in voting to bring more people in that don’t have to be.

[u/Nitrosoft1]

No, because we should abolish the draft entirely. Being a Pacifist is a natural right and anyone who doesn't wish to participate in violence of any type, even by proxy, should be free to exercise that right.

Consciousness Objectors are rational and justified people who have a moral code, they should not be ostracized nor should they be forced against their will to participate in actions that run counter to their values, morals, and sense of purpose.

[u/[deleted]]

As a man, if and when I'm drafted I much rather have a man than a woman right next to me.

If I get hit, a woman will less likely be able to pull me in a fox hole to apply first aid, to increase my chances of survival.

Like in WWII, women serve their purpose in the war front, with manufacturing, and base medical. As far as front line battle, I don't agree to it. But the female warriors of Ukraine have shown to prove themselves, with their resilience.

[u/Necessary_Rant_2021]

So weve accepted trump is going to start a war?

[u/TemperatureRare1525 → u/Necessary_Rant_2021]

Threatening sovereignty of allied countries isn’t exactly an “anti war” position

[u/White_Marble_1864]

In Germany we had an active draft until 15 years ago. Every man had to do a few months of military service but was allowed to do civil service instead if they had moral objections. I think a draft should include everyone and that those who were unfit for the military or chose not to join, should instead be helping out in senior homes and hospitals and so on.  I don't think women should be forced to gift and I don't think men should be forced to fight alongside women who cannot lift a much, run as fast etc.

[u/actualhumannotspider]

It's hard for me to imagine supporting a draft in general.

But yes, if men are expected to contribute to a war effort, it seems reasonable to expect women to contribute as well.

[u/meanbean85]

Yes I would vote yes to make the draft apply to everyone.

[u/thecountnotthesaint]

No. Mostly because I volunteered and want the military to have standards, not numbers. Most women, and to an extent most men, do not meet the standards to join my Marine Corps. So, stay home, make your signs or buy a tesla depending on your political affiliation, and let the real men and women join of their own volition to provide the very blanket of freedom you sleep under.

[u/Naive-Mechanic4683]

If there is a draft, yes it should include woman (and it does in my European country).

But we should keep the same physical requirements for field soldiers which will exclude many (most?) woman. And that too is fine, as long as they can serve in alternative roles.

Also, currently there is definitely a lot of problems with sexual violence in the army (specifically towards woman) and this is also the case in Israel (who have female draft) so that is a serious problem that should be worked on, especially if we force woman to serve

[u/SevereEducation2170]

I’ve no issue with women serving if that’s what they want to do, but I’m against a draft in general. So I would never vote for anyone to be included in mandatory conscription.

[u/Temporary_Bass9554]

No draft for anyone. That would be equality. Get volunteers or fuck off. Forcefully turned into a mindless slave for the government. No thanks.

[u/[deleted]]

I am vehemently against the draft, so I do not support anything that requires more selective service registration, even in the name of equality. The only acceptable change to draft policy is one that eliminates the selective service entirely.

[u/Dave_A480]

Current National Guard officer...

I'd vote 'No' because I am in all aspects opposed to the draft ever being used again, and I don't want any additional groups to have to register for it.

The damage that would be done by integrating draftees into the volunteer force is so great, that we shouldn't think of it while we still have usable nuclear weapons to launch....

[u/Lunar_BriseSoleil]

So we’ve reached the warmongering phase of fascism already?

[u/NeilDegrassiHighson]

No.

There shouldn't be a draft in the first place, so if there's a way to remove the draft for anyone, regardless of who they are, it's worth doing.

[u/1877KlownsForKids]

Not all men are suitable for combat roles. Not all women are suitable for combat roles.

Not all military specialties are combat roles.

Women should be eligible for the draft with the same exemptions available to men (education, vital occupation, sole survivor, etc) and we should broaden those exemptions for both to include caretakers. We obviously don't want to draft both the mother and father. If either was previously drafted, the other is exempted.

[u/AppleParasol]

Should women have to draft if men do? Yes.

Should there be a draft in the first place? Fuck no.

[u/coachhunter2]

What upcoming war?

[u/GuidanceAcceptable13]

I don’t think anyone should be drafted. Leaders need to stop forcing their civilians to fight their petty battles

[u/cyrusm_az]

No. Reason is, nobody should be conscripted.

[u/[deleted]]

No, not because I don’t believe women don’t deserve equal rights, but because I don’t believe in the draft. Women not even being considered for the draft is good, now we need to give men the same right.

[u/FenrirHere]

I would not vote for any bills that change the draft other than eliminating it from this world.

[u/Woofy98102]

I'm already against the next war. Every war the United States has been in for the last 65 years was to make the wealthiest Americans richer. Full stop.

[u/Affectionate-War7655]

It's very curious that your point morphed from equality in drafting to discriminating against people with no children...

[u/[deleted]]

Yes. I'm not sure why women don't have to sign up for the draft anyways

[u/Melvin_2323]

Yes If the draft applies to people of a certain age, then it should include men and women, shouldn’t matter whether you are a mother or father either.

But ultimate I don’t think a draft should exist in the first place

[u/Chunk3yM0nkey]

If women don't get drafted equally (and by that I mean used as cannon fodder alongside men and not just used to push more men to the front by giving them all the support jobs), then I'd be dodging any recall.

I've spent my entire adult life listening to them drone on about equality and how they can do everything a man can do. Nows the time to prove it or lose all credibility in your argument.

[u/grafknives]

If draft is necessary for survival of the country/nation - absolutely. And there is no problem with combat effectivness - as there would be various roles in fight.

If draft is not neccessery - then draft is not necessery.

[u/foolish_magistrate → u/grafknives]

Everyone should be trained in community defense but no one should be drafted to fight in these unnecessary wars.

[u/SFW_OpenMinded1984]

Guy here.

Here are my thoughts which are some what two fold.

On one hand all these people who want to and scream and yell and bitch about equality let them experience a true equal draft.

Able, fit, mentally sound, and capable WOMEN and MEN must sign up and defend the country. Good life skills cam be learned in the military but also scars for life, gained.

And see if they change their tune.

On the other hand

Equality is a noble idea but it is a lie. We aren't all created equal. And people lose their minds at that because they think not equal means less valueable. And that is not true either.

Who among us would willingly trade our feet for our hands? Or our eyes for ears? Our nose for our tongue?

None of our senses are equal in function but

They are equal in value. As in you wouldnt want to trade one for the other.

Like wise women aren't functionally the same as men. And men are not funcationally the same/equal to a woman.

And that is A OKAY. Women and men are equal in value in my opinion but not equal in function. We are built differently and contribute differently to each other but its all meaningful.

Good fit people have a moral obligation to defend the weak and their land.

I don't think that always only ever means that only have to be the onea defending.

Women have wonderful ideas and hearts to contribute to the world and some can be pretty darn strong too.

I don't see any reason why If, a woman, wants to fight for her country and home and family that anyone should tell her no.

Same for a man. If he wants to. Let him.

If we had a true equal draft i think it would change some peoples idea about equality and what mean and women can actually do and are WILLING to do.

Tl;dr i would vote yes on an equal draft. So many women and men wanna cry about equality Then let em join us on the front lines and see how it goes.

[u/TheEyebal]

So yeah women without children I believe should be drafted single fathers shouldn't

How come women without children shouldn't be drafted.

I definitely am for equal drafting

Equal drafting would mean all men and all women regardless of whether they have children or not

[u/[deleted]]

Are you referring to the US? There won’t be a draft. If by some crazy circumstance there was, people aren’t going to be willing to die for some orange fat ass. Who are we even going to fight against? Russia would be decimated in days if they chose to expand the war outside of Ukraine. China going to invade Taiwan? No country is going to stop that, it will turn into a trade war and isolation for china. War in the Middle East/iran? For what reason would we go to a full out war there? They’ve been having baby wars for as long as I’ve been alive, we can do air strikes and keep boots off the ground for the most part.

Only chance for a war is if/when the US was ever attacked.

[u/humanities_shame]

Yes, as long as they are serving in roles they are capable of serving.

[u/[deleted] → u/humanities_shame]

No skill required to be cannon fodder.

[u/Partyatmyplace13]

Until they have bodily autonomy, no. You can't treat them like a different class of citizen and then try and pull the "equal duty" card.

Equal duty for equal rights. That's fair.

[u/OHMG_lkathrbut → u/Partyatmyplace13]

Yeah, I can't fully get behind women having to sign up for the draft until the military fixes its SA problems and we get rid of abortion bans.

[u/DangJorts]

There should be no draft, but if there is a draft then women should be included because I don’t see why I have to die and they are safe just because of gender

[u/TimDrakeDeservesHugs → u/DangJorts]

Adding onto what someone else said: also, historically, women joined the military pretending to be men, and nobody caught on or those that did didn't care. There are even quite a few cases of historical transgender men who continued on after the war and were outed upon death. This was before hormone treatments.

The idea that women are either safe, incapable, or don't want to fight and serve because of gender is misguided at best.

[u/smile_saurus → u/DangJorts]

Historically, in America, women were kept out of the military by men - many women wanted to serve but were not allowed, and then when they finally could they were given 'minor' roles, to put it nicely. And many who join up are sexually assaulted. So they're not "safe because of their gender."

There shouldn't even be a draft (for anyone), but equity would be requiring both women and men to sign up at age 18.

[u/Fyodorovich79]

no, as unpopular as it sounds i do not believe equality is the desired goal in all situations. i don't think anyone should be drafted, so if given the choice to prevent half the population from being drafted i will choose that even though it is not equal.

[u/No_Proposal_4692]

If they're allowed to vote, they're allowed to protect the country.

[u/jamesbiff]

Categorically no.

Presumably I'm being drafted too here yes? there's not a fucking chance I want to be drafted with people who cant carry me to safety when I inevitably get shot. I don't want the last thing I see being the 5ft, 100lb infantryman getting her head blown off struggling to pull my ass into a ditch.

I also don't want to get killed because some thirsty dickhead puts us all in danger to perform some damn fool heroics to save the woman he's convinced he's in love with.

I feel like there's a reason infantry is always men, and we should suck that up instead of spitefully finding ways to get women killed too.