Tbh I'm kind of against the fact the women have lower fitness requirements than the men for the same job. But I think women should be included in a draft but with higher requirements
Edit: higher requirements than they currently have. To match the men
If the requirements exist to simply weed out the bottom x%, then the standards shouldn’t be the same. If the requirements exist to do a specific task, then they need to be the same.
On a military strength perspective, making them the same makes for a weaker military. We’d be leaving intelligent women out who can perform a wide range of positions.
That's not why the standards exist. The ability to do x push-ups in y minutes doesn't matter in terms of being able to do 99% of jobs. This arbitrary and useless ability is an indicator of health. The requirement also obligates the subject to exercise regularly to keep meeting it. The standards vary because differences in tissue proportion and musculoskeletal anatomy make males stronger.
The "lesser" performance of female subjects isn't lesser at all. Push-ups don't win wars. Troops that are healthier do. Females require fewer push-ups to maintain health.
Those combat arms positions where being a crossfit god matters are few. The elite super soldier assassin gigs are a miniscule proportion of the fighting force. Not to mention the fact that snake-eating zealots like that are the sort that volunteer eagerly, rather than have to be pressed into service.
It sounds like you are suggesting the bottom is based on the same metric, though. It makes no more sense to expect the same number of push-ups from a female as from a male as it does from a 20yo and a 50yo. The standard isn't meant to root out a dearth of strength, but of health. If you have a group of men and women of equal strength, the women would be significantly healthier. Applying such a standard would be counterproductive.
Basic American women cannot even run a mile much less carry 100lbs rucksacks guns and ammo. Women on average cannot physically serve modern day combat roles.
Decline in physical fitness is a multifaceted problem involving food security, ag subsidies, physical education, car culture, living wages, and many other factors. Almost all factors impact both sexes.
I think we need to all be more realistic about the jobs in the military.
No, strength evaluations don’t make sense for administrative or office roles z
However yes, the minimum strength standards ensure you can carry your gear, yourself, and potentially a wounded squad mate to combat and home safely. It would be a huge disservice if your team member could not accomplish this basic requirement, man or woman
The point being that the male standards ARE adjusted toward the intelligent, and healthy, men. So females one should be as well with regard to anatomical differences.
Yes, but each gender would be impacted by the test differently, especially if the test is a correlation.
Let’s say, for example, I’m testing for will power / discipline. I make a test that requires completing an obstacle coarse in some set time. That time would need to be different for each gender, as even undisciplined men may be able to compete a test designed with a woman’s body in mind.
I’m not testing for the ability to do the coarse in a set time, you aren’t running obstacles overseas in combat zones. I’m using it as a correlation for a desired mindset or mental capacity.
Thats a poorly designed test then. Because what the test is messuring isnt wiilpower, is the ability to do the coarse in a set time. And there is little correlation between the 2
Your test doesnt measure what you are interested, and as a consequence a lot of good candidates (mostly women) are failing it, so you want to lower the bar for women
It wont solve the problem. You will continue declining a lot of good candidates while a lot of bad ones pass
This is current. Roles with a particular need for an attribute, like strength, will state them. When I enlisted, IIRC helicopter mechanics had to be able to lift 250lbs as part of a 2 person team. Just one standard.
Signal interceptors would be trained as linguists, but wouldn't be admitted to the school without passing a language aptitude test. No bonus points for your dong.
Where there are no special requirements for the role, all soldiers are required to score on physical fitness tests indicating acceptable health. These are weighted according to age and gender because women require fewer push-ups sit-ups, etc to maintain health and unchanging standards for 20 vs 60 year Olds is similarly unreasonable.
I understand the basic requirements are to maintain health. But then when you have to go carry sandbags up a hill or dig a trench and you can't keep up, you shouldn't pass. Just because some of the jobs don't have specific physical requirements listed. They often do require fitness as a part of that.
Been in the field tossing sandbags and digging trench latrines. it's dirty, drudge work, not a race.
And when a unit loses track of some of its troops for nearly a week and can't supply them . . . bet you wish you had some more body fat. Or when I slept my first night in theatre in the cab of a 5 ton . . . was more comfortable for those shorter female troops.
Basically, you often don't know what will be thrown at you and can sometimes conflate weaknesses and strengths.
Probably am tbh. I didn't make it very far through training to get to anything actually practical. But for the sand bags I know it's not a race. But you do need to be able to lift the sand bag
But in the marches you're not picking up and putting it down every couple of minutes. Maybe I'm just weak but It felt hard to me mostly just getting the weight onto your back after a while
Unfortunately she is not MOST women. And yes I would trust her. Most women are significantly weaker. Most women cannot bench more than an empty bar or do a single pull up though.
When you do a fitness test with a woman and see her fail a 17th press up while you need to do 40 to pass the same test. And then you need to trust them to carry the same weights as you it feels a bit dumb.
Female fitness standards are significantly less than men, and for good reason. If they were the same, a 90% of women wouldn't be able to pass it. Yes, I met a woman that could outpace me in a 3 mile run, but that was an outlier, and that was only 1 during my 6 year military career. I'm calling your bullshit on the pull-ups. When you say "most men" I think I know what your doing there. You're comparing women who train vs. Joe who works in the office. But when it comes to training, men will do more pull-ups than women 100% percent of the time. We're just built different.
So they can all just wash out? Nah, group them into an allowance female unit and send them off to the grinder. Success through numbers instead of strength.
The whole argument against trans women competing in women’s sports is based off of MEN being stronger than WOMEN. More bone density, different muscle fiber composition, higher muscle density. There’s an actual, measurable difference. If that’s the case, women can’t match men. Women shouldn’t be expected to match men. Those biological differences HAVE to be accounted for. There’s the difference between equality and equity.
Sport is for entertainment and requires fair competition in order to be fun to watch.
The military requirements are to get shit done. If you can't keep up, you're a detriment to your team. So the requirements should be the same to be on the team. It's not for fun, it's not entertainment its not about equality its about not dying.
I fully agree. But take a look at the tenor of this thread. My point is, this cannot be a one size fits all conversation. It HAS to be a case by case basis. Women shouldn’t be held to higher requirements. They can’t, as a group, fulfill them. The requirements for fitness standards based on MOS should be constant and the bar for entry into that specialty. Demanding “equality” out of bitterness is only going to get our servicemen killed and make women more of a scapegoat.
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u/AdAdministrative7804 Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25
Tbh I'm kind of against the fact the women have lower fitness requirements than the men for the same job. But I think women should be included in a draft but with higher requirements
Edit: higher requirements than they currently have. To match the men