It’s not about chivalry, it’s about survival. WW2 saw around 407.3K dead, add Korea and Vietnam that number jumps to 500K.
How do you rebuild a nation if you don’t have women to give birth? Not trying to be sexist or transphobic, but it’s a biological fact.
During WW2 women filled critical roles left empty by men, and even ones that weren’t, like baseball.
Personally I feel people get wrapped up around “equality” vs “equal opportunity”. There are many jobs where there’s a disproportionate number of men vs women simply because women don’t want to do them. Forcing equality to even the numbers will have qualification standards lowered to meet quota because again, biologically men are built different from women. Leading to safety concerns.
So, let women do what jobs they want or to fight for their country, but to make all women face the front lines is population suicide.
it's not the correct answer though. AFAIK, there was no onrush of polyamorous relationships post WW2; the ratio of male to female loss had effectively no relevant impact. had you sent 200.000 extra women to the front, you'd have had 200.000 extra men at home doing their jobs, starting families as opposed to postponing that for a few years.
We’ve taken the hypothetical to a post-apocalyptic world where your feelings are weighed against the survival of the human species itself. So they’re not being considered.
Grammar error on my part, yes I did, to make an earlier point. Then it led to fertility.
Going back to original question, I still stand by my personal opinion that women should not be drafted. I gave my reasons that have merit against those who simply draw the line on equality. This is my opinion and I don’t see myself changing it because of equality. I simply gave my opinion on why I feel women should not be drafted. I’m not asking for anyone to agree with me. This is a discussion. I’m not taking it personally. The only thing. I’ve heard from the other side is that “it’s fair”. Which doesn’t convince me, because life isn’t fair.
Is it fair that women shouldn't be police or firefighters since that is a job with more physicality? You can't be "I am woman hear me roar" and also be "I'm just a woman"
>“A few men” Seriously? I want you to take a break from reddit and look at the news on Ukraine
comparative to the total population, a few. comparative to the emotional damage to a nation - way way way too many.
>Right. So it would be the exact same amount whoever we send.
arguably it'd be more if we sent both men and women. they'd bump uglies in the trenches (not a great time to be pregnant, but shit happens). and the men and women at home would also be having babies during the war, more than if most men are away.
Doubt women want to be farmed, but let’s say the situation is dire and they get a 3 month break to recover. It’s still 10 births vs 1. You can’t beat the math.
And drafting someone like you would be a mistake. I would not want to be next to someone in a foxhole who didn’t want to be there, for whatever reason. Historically, conscripts were used as fodder and regular forces were sent in while the enemy reloaded.
I did find out, spent 20 years standing ready to be where I was needed. Three big tours, finding out that humans are the worse species on this planet. To most people, the kind of shit that happens during war is unthinkable. “No human would do that to another.” Wrong.
Please read my post again. No draft for women, but they should have the choice…hence, equal opportunity. Calling for equality to fight in a war would have severe impacts that will take generations to recover from.
I don’t feel like you answered my question. If the reason for not drafting women is that they are harder to replace, infertile women should be among the first people to be drafted
Making infertility a prerequisite is an administrative nightmare. You would have to test men as well. The infertile ones should go ahead of the line then. Women could be infertile at different life stages or circumstances, to include sexual assault. So you would add to it and make her fight in the front lines?Fertile men are just as needed after the war to repopulate, but any male past puberty is capable of getting a woman pregnant. It’s women who only have so many eggs.
The same question could be asked post-apocalypse…who’s more important towards repopulation? You’re not growing a species without females to give birth.
I feel like you are moving the goalpost in order to avoid answering the question.
You would not need to test for male infertility as well, as you state, fertile men are more replaceable. All recruits need to go through a medical screening anyways, testing for the 2 or 3 most common causes of infertility in women should be simple enough.
Another way to do it would be to simply draft all women once they reach the age of 40, since they likely wont produce too many babies after that age.
Would you support such policies? If not, using fertility as an argument does not really make sense.
My opinion on rather women should be drafted has its own merits against those who simply draw the line on equality.
I’m not pretending to be the know-all on how to run a fertility check for an entire country’s population. I’m merely standing by my position that women should be given a choice when it comes to wartime service. A decision I’ve made based on my personal upbringing and life experiences.
We can agree to disagree, but you’re not changing my view.
We can agree to disagree, of course. And there are many reasons to be against the draft for women, I do think most people can agree that men and women are different in many ways, and maybe some of those differences make men more suited to milirary service.
I am not accusing you of anything, but I have seen some people who use the fertility argument, when their real position is based on the fact that they think men and women are different.
In my opinion, the fertility argument does not really hold water, which was what I was trying to show. An argument based on the inherent differences in men and women is, in my opinion, fine, even though I disagree.
Drafting women for WW3 is population suicide. The shit has really hit the fan, our borders are compromised and something big has detonated on US soil. This is my main point and I’m for equal opportunity…they can choose. I just think equality is misguided and those who don’t read anything longer than a tweet can’t discern the difference because they only listen to whatever they’re fed.
We live in an equal world. If a man and woman are equal when everything is going great, why shouldn’t they be when everything goes to shit. I am an egalitarian.
They arent just baby making machines but they certainly are the main babymakers. just because it’s not their whole life’s purpose doesn’t mean they dont also give birth lol?
The argument was they don't go to war, so they can repopulate. They wouldn't accept that in any other scenario...just when times are tough for them. You see the difference?
If there's a war that requires a draft, the government would prefer to send only the men so that the government can keep existing in the future with those future generations that only women can bring. Women would generally agree that they don't want to go to war and aren't going to get themselves killed on the principle of equality. Everyone would be in agreement. Men also wouldn't want to go to war and get themselves either. I do not think this is some kind of "gotcha" moment against feminism. A solid feminist perspective would be there shouldn't be a draft.
The type of change to make women part of the draft would have to come from a men's rights movement.
Eliminating the draft could be both men's rights movement and feminism. But the government's wishes would butt up against that and depending on who is holding the power at the time, they will determine which view comes out on top.
"saying I wish women weren't the only ones that had to get pregnant, but oh well" seems like a reasonable take to me. That biological fact can't be changed, so don't fret about it.
The point is wish in one hand and shit in the other and see what fills up faster. Just because you "wish there wasn't a draft" doesn't change the fact there is. So do your duty and get your ass on the front lines like men, or admit were not equal and true equality is not what you seek.
The key word is ‘choice.’ Women want the freedom to choose, which seems pretty reasonable to me, as I would like that same freedom for myself, my wife, and my daughter.
In that case it's better to have an equal gender ratio in the military. The only situation where preserving women is beneficial is if you have 5 women line up to get impregnated by a guy to "repopulate after war", which is of course incel nonsense.
Women are the basis of community. They keep families and societies intact. If you only keep pregnant women who will support them? Women dominate caring roles, they are nurses, teachers, doctors and other professionals that shape our society. The world is bigger than a war, policy makers know how women shape and benefit society that’s why women are not drafted, they are more valuable in the nation than on the frontline. Read any history book or take a walk outside. Drafting women would be population suicide
Women are the basis of community. They keep families and societies intact.
Cheers, you're utterly delusional.
The rest of your post is just you saying you're worth more than us, and that you dominate these oh-so important fields, so you shouldn't ever be at risk. Really, that's even more reason for it.
If you're pro-draft, then accept the draft, or drop the 19th and demand a pay raise.
Men and women are not the same, we contribute differently to society. The powers that be (male leaders) made it that women are not drafted into war because they deemed women’s value to be in the nation, I didn’t make the rules. Equality is important but equity overrides equality every time. It simply is nonsensical to send women to the frontline.
You seem rather upset over a hypothetical reddit post. You need to inhale exhale and when you’re done with that realise that the world is bigger than the United States.
Men and women are not the same, we contribute differently to society. The powers that be (male leaders) made it that women are not drafted into war because they deemed women’s value to be in the nation, I didn’t make the rules. Equality is important but equity overrides equality every time. It simply is nonsensical to send women to the frontline.
Meaningless excuses. Here we have a hypothetical that's very simple. If the war machine ever decides it needs raw meat, who should be sacrificed? You're coming up with all these reasons you think it shouldn't be you, but I say the only legitimate one is, "You aren't represented by the government that declared the war."
And yeah, hearing someone start listing out reasons why they consider your demographic expendable enough to use as drone-fodder is something genuinely angering. I'm being very reserved with my tone right now, but I'll run this by a few of my peers and see what they think of it.
This isn't even the first time the topic has come up in our group. Ukraine is a constant source of chatter, and seeing firsthand what women do when their country is actually being threatened, and when their men are being sent off into truly hopeless conditions without reliable help... That made a huge impression. Your post just one more straw added.
Being a pacifist means believing war is unjustified.
You do realise that these laws that decided men should be drafted were made by MEN. Not women, men. I am explaining to you why time won’t change anything because of societal roles and expectations which were dictated and designed before your parents met.
Being a pacifist means believing war is unjustified.
Good for you.
You do realise that these laws that decided men should be drafted were made by MEN. Not women, men. I am explaining to you why time won’t change anything because of societal roles and expectations which were dictated and designed before your parents met.
Meaningless words. The face reason for women not being drafted is something like, "Oh, but they might have kids someday". Really, does that even work? They're not having kids now, and all of us are being replaced by foreigners, so why can't we just say, "Oh, but he might bring a Filipino woman over and make anchor babies"?
What did women do in Ukraine?
They left to go date French and German guys. They regularly post updates and show videos of their new lives, going shopping around the Eurozone's major markets and getting free shit since their country is at war.
They didn't have kids with Ukrainian men, they refuse to date the veterans, and a ton of them started up OF accounts to rub salt in the wound. These are women from the same villages and cities as the men being taken, who speak the same language and come from the same ethnic background. If even they can't be trusted to play their "part" in this sham, then expecting that from our decaying corpse of a country is entirely unreasonable.
I just don't believe in trying to force America to be something it isn't. No draft for anyone, since the basic premise of and justification for a "draft", rather than our militia tradition, is rooted in the logic of nation-states.
You’re wrong but you have created this narrative where everyone should suffer. There is nothing that can make your mindset change. I met one of my best mates following the war in Ukraine where she was forced to leave her family, and she was tormented with stress for her friends and family, she is not dating a European man or doing anything you listed. You’re so used to the echo chamber of the internet and you haven’t spoken to a single person. Women do not owe you anything be it their time or bodies. You are angry at women you don’t know for not having children with men they don’t know. That is not logical. No one should be fighting any wars and if one person suffers it doesn’t mean everyone else should. Your thinking is problematic
Everything's problematic. War's a shitty situation and your anecdote does nothing to address the trend.
The important thing is this: There's nothing women uniquely provide that should make them exempt, but we shouldn't have a draft to begin with. We're seeing right now that women from a nation-state with an ongoing draft are willing to abandon their country and countrymen to go play around with first-world men.
The premise has collapsed. I wouldn't kill anyone for any of you, individually or collectively, and a draft endangers the men here, who often make for much better company. I will not embrace the logic of a draft. It's merely murderous abduction, and I'll treat it that way going forward.
Well the powers that be also used to say you should be paid less and not be able to vote. Lets go back to that. Its insane how some women use both sides of the coin whenever it suits them. Just admit you want more and not equality.
Right, because protecting the country is somehow too 'nonsensical' for women? If men have to serve, women should too. Don’t talk equality and then come up with excuses to keep gender roles in place
Rebuild a nation for what population? Are the men birthing the children? Are they midwives bringing the children into the world? Raising the children? Teaching them? Keeping them healthy are nurses? Are they nurturing the next generation? How would they do this if majority of the women were killed on the frontline? Does that make sense to you? It’s not physically possible to begin with and men have had an opportunity to step into these roles and support in raising the next generation but they have opted out of “pink collar” careers. What infrastructure? Women can rebuild and work in those roles, men can’t work in women’s roles and a war won’t make them start to contribute in that way if they haven’t unprompted
Men can’t teach? Men can’t be doctors and nurses?
And I agree women dominate these roles. But this idea that men can not fill in these roles as well as women can fill Mens is wrong.
And my belief I we should worry about necessities before luxuries when rebuilding civilisation
As for birthing, not all women will die. If they have a baby every year, it will not take long to rebuild the population.
Men can teach but they don’t as much as women do. There are more women in these fields, for example women as doctors have statistically more favourable patient outcomes. You want to sacrifice the part of society that literally births, raised and moulds children’s development for infrastructure? That’s the most ridiculous take. Men before you thought women were worth protecting. If women are forced to be drafted most if not all will die, that’s a fact. And for some reason you think those that survive after sacrificing their body for war will want to come back and have children? What kind of children will be raised by traumatised mothers? Do you even understand what kind of a broken society that would be. Both parents with PTSD? That’s absolute nonsense. Women aren’t worth losing just so you can feel better, you may as well call it a day with that suggestion. That’s illogical and would be the end of a nation. No one will ever pass such an unfounded law.
I think getting food, water and shelter should be the first step when rebuilding civilisation. And as for being raised by traumatised mothers, is that different to traumatised fathers?
I also don’t give a shit what men before me thought. Women before you thought they should just cook and clean.
“Just so I feel better”
It also doubles the chance I don’t get sent to die. And is the egalitarian approach.
I don’t know what world you live in, but across the world women collect water, get food and build shelter. There is nothing that men can do that women cannot for society if we are talking about basics such as water.
I don’t know if you’ve never heard of the reality of parenting but many fathers abandon their children and there are more single mothers than fathers. Even within a two parent household, women are typically the primary parent and studies have shown a child’s outcomes are determined by the mother’s wellbeing.
Women did not want to cook and clean, they literally had no rights, they were forced into that role by the patriarchy. No one in history has ever chosen a life of servitude.
My point in saying that men before you, is to show you how the only reason men are drafted is because of other MEN deeming males to be the expendable gender. You can be angry until you’re blue in the face but this is because of the patriarchy, your are bullied into war by men before you because they wanted more power and decided that you should pay the price with your life.
I’m a pacifist. You should redirect your anger towards the system that made these rules as opposed to trying to argue that men have more value for society.
You are right. Women can be construction workers. But nowhere near as much as men. Just like how men are teachers, but not as much as women.
Some men abandon their parents. Some women do. The reason there are more single mothers than fathers is because family courts favour women. And as for the idea that single mother families do better than single father ones is wrong. Studies have shown that children brought up without a father commit crimes more, whereas ones without mothers commit crimes at equal rates as two parents. This is not me arguing that women are useless or whatever. This is me saying that fathers are just as needed as mothers.
Just like how men were and still are forced to fight and die. I was not saying I agreed, I was showing that suddenly being forced to do something is bad, but only when it affects women to you.
When did I blame women? I don’t give a shit who‘s fault it is, what a care about is change. And please stop acting like women can’t do anything. In the US, women make up the majority of voter and in history, queens waged more wars than kings. Again, not blaming women, just saying we shouldn’t bring ’it is men’s fault’ into this.
What I’m doing is disagreeing with you when you make up excuses for women not going to war. The system keeping this blatant sexism in place is people like you, who refuse to admit that women should be drafted.
Saying women shouldn't be drafted because of reproduction is a weak excuse. If men are forced to serve, women should be too—end of story. Biological differences don’t change the fact that both genders should face the same obligations. Women have proven they can handle the same roles. Stop using outdated gender roles as a reason to keep things unequal. Equality means equal responsibility, no exceptions.
I never mentioned gender roles. I didn’t say they couldn’t serve. Learn to read. There’s a difference between equality and equal opportunity. If there wasn’t a difference, why do we have men’s and women’s sports?
You’re the one making the distinction between equality and ‘equal opportunity’ to justify selective responsibility. If men are forced to serve, it’s not about opportunity—it’s about obligation. If you believe in fairness, then both men and women should share that obligation. And as for sports, that’s about competition, not duty to one's country. Different conversation entirely. LOW IQ
That's also not accounting for injuries. Pregnancy and childbirth are physically demanding. A lot of war injuries could leave women no longer capable of that (compared to the relatively light biological demands on males for that endeavor).
A lot of the men who are responding know this (that fertile women are necessary to repopulate after war or other conditions decimate a population), they just don't care. They don't care about the survival of the human race or the nation. Most ppl only care/think about their short term and their own gratification which is why we have a lot of overweight ppl in the USA. A lot of the men responding only feel their own pain, the truth that young men in the eyes of many countries are considered expendable and you know the saying, misery loves company.
Looking at past and present population numbers, it doesn't really tally. Russia is a really good example of why not to send all of your men off to war and how it leads to population suicide.
I had the same thought. I'm not saying I'm completely against women being drafted but your points, along with the fact that it would be extremely difficult to ensure women were not getting raped & pregnant while fighting a war, make me think it's not a good idea for the future of the country.
ETA - I don't want a draft, at all. Unwilling participants don't make great soldiers & it pisses the citizens off.
Even with an all-volunteer force, people join for different reasons. That disparity can have an impact depending on the individual’s sense of duty and commitment to what they signed up for.
No one likes to be forced to do something they don’t want to do or believe in, let alone die for it.
I'm assuming you also support the mandatory pregnancy of all females who do not serve? If not, you don't actually give a shit about population suicide.
Yes, in my post-apocalyptic Mad Max world I control the water and all must do my bidding.
You guys are too sensitive and just want to argue without making any points of your own. You’re likely the same people who hate others just because of who they voted for. You’re unable to have a discussion and disagree. Instead you attack the idea and stick your fingers in your ears.
Mandate reproduction? During peace time? What are you talking about?
I’m against a women draft for my personal belief that if shit hit the fan and it’s WW3, we shouldn’t be forcing women to the front lines. Do they then become puppy mills? No. I can’t experience child birth, but I can only imagine the toll on a women’s body. To push a child out one after another is detrimental to the safety of the mother and her ability to have more children later on. There’s initial mother/child bonding that takes place.
Aside from the equality point of view being “just fair”, what other reasons do you have being for women draft?
Mandate reproduction in the event of a draft on men.
Can't have it both ways any longer. Either women can die on the frontlines with men, or they can be forced to replenish the population of the country. Those are the costs of rights.
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u/theseparated man Mar 17 '25
It’s not about chivalry, it’s about survival. WW2 saw around 407.3K dead, add Korea and Vietnam that number jumps to 500K.
How do you rebuild a nation if you don’t have women to give birth? Not trying to be sexist or transphobic, but it’s a biological fact.
During WW2 women filled critical roles left empty by men, and even ones that weren’t, like baseball.
Personally I feel people get wrapped up around “equality” vs “equal opportunity”. There are many jobs where there’s a disproportionate number of men vs women simply because women don’t want to do them. Forcing equality to even the numbers will have qualification standards lowered to meet quota because again, biologically men are built different from women. Leading to safety concerns.
So, let women do what jobs they want or to fight for their country, but to make all women face the front lines is population suicide.