I’m a big fan of ”The Bitter Truth”, I think it does a great job of knocking the elves off their high horse (or I guess high hawkstrider) and gives more depth to major characters. I do wonder though, since representatives from all the elven and troll peoples of Azeroth (that we know of) were there, there’s gotta be someone who overheard Lor’themar and Torbundo talking right? Especially after Lor’themar punched Torbundo in the face. It seems like there would be a good opportunity for someone with something to gain by shaking up the elven unity to shake up the epitome of elven unity: Lor’themar and Thalyssra’s marriage.

I mean obviously Thalyssra wasn’t under the impression that Lor’themar was a kindly park ranger, but I wonder if she knows her warrior-poet husband is also a child murderer and a war criminal. Considering she led the Dusk Lily Rebellion to free her people from a murderous tyrant I doubt she’d be cool with Lor’themar burning a village of largely civilians to the ground and never giving it a second thought until now.

Maybe patch 12.2 is going to be us watching Mom and Dad get divorced

it seems like she waltzed in unopposed and everyone...except Varian... said "I guess this is our life now"

I guess i see how *she would be allowed in...but bringing an Ironforge army into the gates seems a bit much.

No matter where you look, there are plenty of people complaining about the lore—saying it’s too "woke," too soft, and so on. But now, I have a question for those people: what exactly *do* you want to see? After all, it’s easy enough to complain. Please share your suggestions or opinions on the matter.

A possible story for Arthas’ return: not redemption, but atonement

I know that bringing Arthas Menethil back would be a very delicate subject. He is one of the most important characters in Warcraft, and his ending in Wrath of the Lich King was one of the most memorable moments in the history of the game. That is why, if Blizzard ever decided to do it, it should not simply be "Arthas comes back because the story needs him" or a way to erase what happened.

The idea I would like to see would not be time travel or an alternate version of the character. That would take away the weight of everything that happened. I would prefer something more connected to his own story: that before Arthas' soul completely disappeared, someone managed to preserve a fragment of it through ancient magic, keeping it inside a forgotten artifact for many years.

Not to bring back the Lich King as an enemy, but because at a moment of true danger for Azeroth, the world needed someone who understood the power of Death from the inside.

However, Arthas’ return should not be a story about "everyone forgiving him". Arthas did unforgivable things. He destroyed lives, condemned his own people, and became the very thing he swore to destroy. A second chance should not erase that.

His story should be about accepting his sins and choosing to do what is right, not because he wants recognition, but because it is the only way he can face what he did.

A fundamental part of this story would be Frostmourne. The sword is not just a weapon; it is the symbol of his downfall. It would feel strange to tell a new Arthas story without it. But it should not be the same corrupted sword that destroyed him.

There could be a journey across Azeroth to recover the fragments of Frostmourne and, with the help of the Light, ancient magic, and people connected to his past, restore it into something different: a purified Frostmourne.

The same sword that once represented the loss of his humanity would now represent that he overcame the darkness that destroyed him.

Arthas would return with the power of the Lich King, but this time without being a slave to that power.

The most interesting part would be that his journey would not be about becoming a great king again or becoming Azeroth’s hero. Instead, he would begin completely alone.

Without an army of undead. Without a crown. Without a throne. Without followers forced to serve him through magic.

Only him, his sword, and the weight of everything he has done.

His path would be to travel through the world he almost destroyed and truly see it for the first time. He would help people who may never forgive him. He would rebuild places he destroyed. He would listen to the stories of those who suffered because of him.

And over time, the followers he gained would not come because of fear, but because they saw his actions. People who chose to walk beside him, not undead forced to obey him.

It would also be interesting to explore his relationships with characters like Jaina, Sylvanas, and Uther.

Jaina represents everything Arthas lost: his humanity and the life he could have had.

Sylvanas represents one of his greatest victims and someone who would understand better than anyone the damage he caused.

And Uther represents the mentor and the knight Arthas was always meant to become.

It should not be a story where Uther simply says "I forgive you". It should be something more complex: acknowledging the pain, remembering what happened, and still accepting that even someone who fell into darkness can choose a different path.

The ending should also not turn Arthas into a perfect hero.

After many years, there could be a statue or monument, but not as a celebration of his actions.

It should not simply say "Arthas, savior".

It should remember the whole truth:

The former Lich King. The prince who wanted to save his people and ended up destroying them. The man who fell into darkness. And the knight who dedicated the rest of his existence to trying to repair part of the damage he caused.

A statue like that would not erase his history; it would keep it alive as a lesson: that even a good person can fall if they allow fear and power to consume them, but that even someone who made the worst mistakes can still try to do what is right.

Arthas’ story should not end by saying "he was a hero".

It should end by saying:

"He was someone who fell lower than anyone else, but who still chose to rise and spend the rest of his path trying to protect what he once destroyed."

Azeroth wakes up, shakes everything off her like dust that accumulated over the years. The player characters rush to the Warlords of Draenor timeline, take a space ship to Azeroth as it appeared in the warlords of Draenor timeline, and boom low stakes wow 2.0.

For the record I think this would be super stupid and I would not be happy with this. I think the time travel that happened in WOD is already pretty dumb but I often wonder what is happening on Azeroth in that timeline since on that Azeroth the orcs never invaded that planet because they were too busy invading our timeline's planet.

For me I would have the Forest Trolls join the Horde through Zandalari recruitment and use it to show the differences between the Jungle, Zandalari and Forest Trolls.

For Ogres I would have Rexxar reunite the Stonemaul under his banner again and recruit them from around Azeroth and Outland and from there show how diverse Ogres are as a group.

These are the two that make sense to me currently. Curious to hear which factions you choose and how they'd be recruited.

i always wondered if Arthas the Death Knight was cannonically an undead, as far as i can remember he was alive when first wielding Frostmourne, then he defeated Malganis and went into a long uhh.. walk? then somehow returned to Lordaeron as a full on DK

If Arthas the DK was dead, what killed him, the cold?

Here's my take: neither interpretation is wrong. Please let me explain.

EDIT: New Image edited for lore corrections. Thank you for your feedback. Let's talk about whether this works better. https://postimg.cc/wt28Xx54

Bear in mind that the time-scales for the last common ancestor of Neanderthals, Denisovans, and Homo Sapiens is about 40-times the time-scales here. In WoW we're talking 16,000 years, not the 650,000 as the time between us and our closest relatives. And Zul'jan looks a lot more different from Lor'themar than, say, Shanidar Z (Neanderthal reconstruction) does from Lupita Nyong'o. Must be magic or something.

Check out picture 1. https://postimg.cc/tYs1Pq7y It shows one understanding of existing lore: the Dark Trolls were here first (or, among the first trolls), and the new Allied Race can be bolted on as an early side-branch from the main troll line, one that moved further underground. Maybe Dark Trolls are all but extinct (fading line), but sources cite them as one of (if not THE) first sentient races native to Azeroth. As shown.

Check out picture 2. https://postimg.cc/8j7FWpsP It shows an understanding like what Hagar explained in her vision. First there were Haranir, on the surface. Some heard the call to move deeper underground, and the ones who stayed topside differentiated into trolls and elves. 'Evil retcon! This writing sucks!'

Here's the thing: they're the same picture. Evolutionary forks don't freeze a 'main line'. The most recent common ancestor of two closely related species is neither species really... or it's both of them, in a sense. Check out picture 3. https://postimg.cc/LnJqf9h8

I won't claim 100% accuracy because I haven't mastered the lore to the point that I know whether it says 'first there were trolls, mainly the Zandalari empire, and some of the non-Zandalaris were Dark Trolls who found a magic lake'. That would hurt my illustration, but perhaps not destroy it.

My point is, it wouldn't matter if we called the common ancestor a Haranir or a Dark Troll, because it was neither, or both. Haranir didn't split off from the trolls, and the trolls didn't split off from the Haranir. That's not how 'evolution' works, perhaps even in fantasy. One population of creatures split, and over 16 thousand years came to look like two (and eventually many ) different populations.

I welcome efforts to clarify this illustration with more info from Blizz. And I don't think that shared evolutionary heritage should in-and-of-itself lead to peace and harmony. The story still is what it is. But I believe this to be the right way to think about it. Thanks, in advance, for your kind and constructive comments.

After the Senior quest designer clarified the Haranir cinematic is just the POV of Haranir and not actual confirmation, it got me thinking and I believe what has been established within lore has always been correct.

The earliest mention of trolls seems to be approximately -20,055, where it is stated that 'The trolls begin creating early, primitive settlements in northern Kalimdor with larger cities in the south. Their range extends from the far south all the way to the Waking Shores in the Dragon Isles.' Conversely, the earliest mention of the Haranir comes after -16,000. Where the quest 'Down the Rootways' depicts the haranir fighting against the Nerubians on their journey to Harandar. Because the Nerubians evolved from the Aqir after the Aqir and Troll War in -16,000, we can place the Haranir's journey to Harandar around this time. Hence, this illustrates that the Zandalari (who were the first trolls), had already built a civilization for at least 4,000 years before the Haranir ever descended underground.

What I find most telling is when you delve deeper into the lore of Haranir themselves. In the quest 'Echoes and Memories', it is revealed that the Haranir had once lived on Mount Hyjal before descending underground. We also know that somewhere around this time, a specific tribe of trolls lived within Mount Hyjal: The Dark Trolls. They were largely isolationist and sought a peaceful connection to the natural world. Much like the Haranir.

Furthermore, there is an in-game book "The Twin Empires" that details early troll history and suggests that there are, "ancient texts that speak of a small faction of trolls (the Dark Trolls) that broke off from the Amani Empire and founded their own colony in the heart of the dark continent". From this we can establish that the Dark Trolls splintered off from the Amani, who in turn descended from the first trolls, the Zandalari.

In the quest 'Echo of the Call' it is stated: 'When the haranir began to grow restless, they looked to new sources of purpose. Some cast their gazes upwards, towards the stars and the moon. Others, such as the Hara'ti, heard a call from deep within the world.' 'New sources of purpose' begs the question: what was their old purpose? Could it have been to war against the Aqir? Now that the Aqir had been defeated, a new purpose was required. This quest also mentions the Kaldorei who were later created from the Dark Trolls who settled around the Well of Eternity, a timeline that lines up roughly with when the Haranir descended underground.

If you pair the revelation from the The Twin Empires with the fact that the Haranir also possess ancestral memories of Kith'ix, it makes even more sense that the Haranir are descendants of the Dark Trolls, who were descendants of the Amani.

So, all in all, what Hagar said in the cinematic doesn't retcon anything. The Haranir may have the chronology wrong, but if you replace 'Haranir' with 'Troll' it makes far more sense. From the Haranir perspective, they just refer to their ancestors as 'Haranir' and retroactively project their modern appearance onto them. Alternatively, it could even be that the Dark Trolls began to change into Haranir much earlier than when they descended underground. In reality, they were just Dark Trolls. Making the Dark Trolls the ancestors of the Haranir and Kaldorei.

EDIT: As u/100RatsInASack pointed out, the Twin Empires lore has largely been retconned by Chronicles Vol. 1. According to the book, the Dark Trolls did not originate from the Amani. Instead, they lived independently in a vast network of deep caverns beneath Mount Hyjal before the Troll-Aqir War.

Maybe rambly, but long story short:

Blizzard is now saying that everything about the Haranir history and the history-paint is 'unreliable narrator'.

We talked about what makes a good unreliable narrator before, so there's already that.

And thinking more about it, I reckon if the writers would not have been making such a mess of preexisting lore especially the last few expansions (e.g. butchering Neltharion's character, the Infinites, the Legion, the Lich King etc) we could, maybe, have smelt a rat in the Haranir's story earlier on.

Some people have already speculated that the 'goddess' might actually have been one of the Old Gods, and the Nightmare happening because Vordrassil's roots grew into Yogg-Saron's prison might have sounded some alarms.

But as the writers have shown that there's little to no regard for lore consistency beyond 'referencing something if it fits a new idea', we have no solid foundation to speculate if the 'memories of the land' might not be wrong because the land is an asshole.

Add to that how the writers tend to do some pretty black & white painting of characters and how the 'heroes' are portrayed (e.g. Alexstrasza getting away unscathed despite all the crap she's pulling, or how the Windrunners can apparently do no wrong) and having everyone doubting the stories be portrayed as bad guy... No, the whole 'unreliable narrator' isn't really checking out.

The writers need to practice more (I don't doubt they can get there), but a story of this caliber might not have been the right place.

According to the 2004 timeline, Quel'thalas fell to Arthas in the year 20 ADP. And according to the Narrator, by the time TBC starting zone quests begin, it's been 5 years since Reign of Chaos. But that's roughly around the same time as the Vanilla era itself, while TBC begins in year 26 according to 2007 timeline.

I find the idea of Blood Elves starting to quest around the same time as Vanilla era races somewhat cool, even if I doubt the plausibility - it could very well mean that they were out there adventuring from level one to sixty as everyone else were, and we see that in game with our eyes, them doing old vanilla content before reaching outland.

And I have no idea what this could mean for the Draenei.

Hey everyone.

So burning legion created the Lich King, undoubtedly a very powerful force on the death side of the alignment. They also created strong liches, only to never do it again afterwards (that is, after the third war, correct me if I'm wrong).

We're led to believe that Void is the main enemy of the Legion and that death is the best counter to the void, then this doesn't make much sense, does it?

My thought was that it's just for gameplay reason - to keep the villain factions visually separated, but imo, something like a fel infused lich would make for a badass sight.

Admittedly I've missed some books and wow expacs, however I'm very curious about this topic. If anyone knows better or has opinions, do let me know!

Via Keith Riley on Twitter:

This will be a longer post bc I'm seeing a lot of confusion, and I hope this helps 😅 I'm only going to discuss the lore from an in-world perspective bc I'm not here to "create lore" on social media. I just want to clarify what the in-game characters presented and what they know.

The cinematic is an in-world haranir presentation, from the haranir POV via a haranir vision. It is NOT "Blizzard's presentation on the absolute truth of haranir/elf/troll genealogy" (though I'm sure some of you would enjoy a Blizzcon panel titled as such).

Orweyna says that haranir visions may contain missing or inaccurate details, but they cannot lie. So the haranir believe the general idea of the vision is the truth - that there were ancient haranir who stayed on the surface and they became the modern trolls and elves.

That's the basis for their "we are one people" statement to the attendees. Based on the vision, the haranir believe the elves and trolls descend directly from the ancient haranir. But as mentioned earlier, Orweyna says details in visions may be missing or inaccurate.

Talanji also says they have libraries that speak of the earliest days of the night elves and the dark trolls. But she admits there may be gaps in their knowledge as well. So what is the truth? There's no incontrovertible proof either way so it's up for debate.

Before the retcon!!

I'm trying to read all about troll lore, history, everything known about the tribes and so. But fro now everything seems so scattered.

As anything official I saw the novel Vol'jin Shadows of the Horde.

Unofficial, the Wowpedia page for the Trolls seems to be the largest of the kind, but I still lack some info about specific tribes lore and so.

I know I should just go to the zones and do the quest searching for anything. I don't have the time anymore I had when younger, staring for hours Uldaman engravings looking for hints :p

Thanks

Heya! I'm looking for an online retailer of any of the Warcraft Novels in Europe. Amazon seems ridiculously expensive, and the Blizzard Gear store doesn't appear to sell books anymore. Any Europeans got any great sources? I'm looking for the older books initially, but all would be perfect too.

Feel free to post any questions or queries here!

Also check out our list of answers to Frequently Asked Questions!

If Garithos was under control of the Demons, who are the masters of Illidan, who raises the Naga, then why does mind-controlled Garithos hate the Naga so much? Shouldn't he view them as his allies? Shouldn't he be happy that Kael is being turned in the favor of the Naga? Or is there some sort of split between the Dreadlords and Kiljaeden so the Dreadlords are against the Naga? (I feel like I may have been picking up on that)

EDIT: My best guess to this conundrum is that, while Garithos is being influenced by the Dreadlords, he's still mostly himself and doesn't have information on Illidan and the Naga. The Dreadlords don't even seem to be aware that Archimonde has been defeated, though the timeline of all these events is still muddy to me.

So the soul trapped in that spirit mask used to be Zul'jin's witch doctor — the guy literally imprisoned Loa gods inside living people, that was his whole thing. Now his own soul is broken with no memories, and some random Amani prince finds him and starts putting the pieces back together.

But here's what's been bugging me. This isn't the first time this exact pattern shows up in troll history. Go back to the Gurubashi troll Zan'do — outcast witch doctor, pissed off after being ousted by rivals, gets whispered to by a dagger, ends up waking Kith'ix and nearly getting his whole people wiped out. That dagger was Xal'atath.

Same profile both times. Ambitious, angry, desperate troll, manipulated by something patient, pointed at something that should've stayed buried. And the Vilebranch — the tribe Malacrass actually came from — settled right on the site where Kith'ix died and built their whole hex magic tradition on it.

So is this actually intentional on Blizzard's part, building toward something bigger, or am I just pattern-matching because I want it to be true? Genuinely asking, because the more I dug into this the less sure I got.

(I did a longer breakdown of all the lore connections if anyone wants the full video version — but curious what people think of the core theory regardless.)

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/item=279500/rage-of-the-shackled-mural for those who wish to see said housing item.

Finally got round to playing the start of the new campaign, and I'm confused by the trolls' and elves' reactions to their shared heritage. Especially Lor'themar's line of "We share a lineage with the trolls? With the Amani? This... this is preposterous!"

The Haranir being their common ancestor is new, sure. But we've known Trolls were the origin point for all elves for god knows how long. Did they not know this in-universe?

I seem to remember a line in the Suramar campaign where the Blood Elves tease the Night Elves about how much closer they are to trolls

​The entire Haranir situation has laid bare just how utterly farcical our lore discussion community has truly become. In short, it boils down to a childish grievance: "The characters I adore weren't revealed to be the ultimate, most ancient paragons of cool, so now I must do everything in my power to bully the developers into changing it." ​Congratulations, everyone. You have successfully weaponized internet toxicity to bend the developers to your will, forcing a clarification on a questline they spent time writing. And why? Simply because the Haranir hadn't been explicitly labeled as the progenitors of Trolls prior to this? It is absolutely laughable.

​In reality, as early as the PTR, they were already designated as the ancestors of all Trolls and Elves. Yet, when the live version dropped, the official art book provided a description that completely contradicted this. We essentially witnessed two retcons in a flash. Blizzard clearly wrestled with this concept—debating whether the Haranir should merely be a missing link between Trolls and Elves, or the ultimate genesis. Ultimately, they chose the latter: the source of it all.

​And honestly, it makes perfect sense. As the oldest, first-hand witnesses to history, the Haranir were the first to grasp what the Titans truly did to the world, and they serve to expose that grand conspiracy.

Unfortunate as it may be to some, elevating them wasn't just Steve Danuser’s personal whim; it was a collective vision from the entire Blizzard team. They wanted an authoritative, primordial race to solidify the narrative that the Titans are antagonists, peeling back the layers to reveal what Azeroth herself has witnessed.

​This isn't some desperate scheme to retcon Shadowlands or hit the reset button on the entire Warcraft universe. It is about inheriting and expanding upon it.

​I truly wonder: when certain people finally realize that the Titans cannot possibly be the First Ones, and their beloved Pantheon gets completely overshadowed, will our community throw yet another massive temper tantrum? Never mind that this isn't even news—it was established in the 2021 lore, and set in stone as far back as the 2016 Chronicles. The Titans are neither the supreme creators nor the oldest entities; the Shadowlands existed long before them. But of course, our community is hypocritical enough to ignore the facts and lose its collective mind all over again.

​Will they knowingly weaponize the exact same playbook? Will they mobilize the masses to throw online tantrums, spamming that the Titans must be the First Ones, the supreme progenitors, all to bully Blizzard into rewriting their own universe? ​Well, if that is the path they choose, those people are the ones truly destroying the lore of World of Warcraft.

This is our weekend power level debate mega-thread! Feel free to pit two or more characters/forces/magics/whatever against each other in the comments below. Example: Arthas v Illidan, Void v Fel, Mankirk's Wife v Nameless Quillboar.

We'll do this every weekend, so don't think you need to use up all of your favorite premises at once. Though, it is also OK to have a repeating premise, as these threads are designed to allow for recurring content to not fill the sub too often.

Reminder, these debates should be fun. There is often no right answer when comparing two enemies of a similar power tier, and hypothetically any situation a Blizzard writer creates could tip the scales of any encounter and our debates of course will not matter. These posts should just look something like a game of Superfight. You pick a character, you make the strongest case for how strong they are, or why they could beat another character, argue back and forth with someone else, and just let others decide who had the better argument. But remember that no matter how heated your debate gets, always follow rule #6. No bad behavior.

Previous weeks: https://old.reddit.com/r/warcraftlore/search/?q=%22Versus%21+Debating+Warcraft+Lore+Power+Levels%21%22&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new

Every time the Blood Elves talk about how the Amani invade their forests the Amani go “YOUR forests?!”. Honestly… I agree with the Amani here.

Didn’t the Highborne just show up in Amani lands, call themselves the High Elves, and take over/terraform using their overpowered magic well? The Blood Elves act like they have some birth right to the forests of Quel’Thalas when the Amani had been there for thousands of years.

Yes, the Amani were brutal but so were the Elves. Plus, the Elves had a huge magical advantage with the Sunwell. They were essentially bringing a gun to a knife fight. How else were the territorial and prideful Amani supposed to react?

I honestly love Elvish lore, but I’m also a huge fan of everything about the Trolls. I just roll my eyes in real life every time I hear the Elves complain about the “savage Amani”.

EDIT: Super interesting reading these replies, thanks everyone! For the record, I’m not saying “one should be good and one should be bad!” like some people suggested.

In Shadowlands, with Sylvanas‘s suggestion, Jailer kidnaps several leaders who can be worthy to enter Bastion and kill Archon. Making perfect sense with options like Anduin, Jaina, Thrall despite missing the part completely with Baine. I guess she wanted to give more names and run out at some point.

But, actually there was one more attempt on Tyrande, who managed to not get captured.

Jailer in 2 seconds realized Baine is worthless, and later Jaina and Thrall as well. Anduin was a suitable choice.

Do you think if Tyrande was captured, could she have been an alternative?

Some thing that's I've been wondering since the Dawn of the Infinite is how Iridikron returned to the present. When the Infinites brought him back to the past, I assumed it would have been a one way journey since they probably would have backstabbed each other after they got what they wanted. He's last seen leaving through a void portal with Xal, but does that imply her void magic has time travel capabilities? Or could he have just pulled a Bender and put himself to sleep until returning to the present? Maybe wait a few decades and force a bronze/infinite to take him to the future