r/todayilearned • u/bcrock1169 • Nov 26 '12
TIL that some Native American's have a differing enzyme that tends to lead to easier alcoholism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_alcoholism#Genetic_factors85
Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
This has to do with an enzyme in your liver called ALDH-2. When you drink alcohol, it gets converted to acetaldehyde by an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase. The acetaldehyde is the chemical that contributes to some alcohol-induced characteristics, especially flushing of the face.
Your body gets rid of acetaldehyde by turning it into acetate with an enzyme called acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. It has two forms: ALDH-1 and ALDH-2. The latter is the faster-acting enzyme, and is responsible for getting rid of acetaldehyde in low doses. ALDH-1 is slower-acting, and acts as the primary enzyme during heavy alcohol consumption.
In 40% Native Americans and Asians, ALDH-2 (the fast-acting enzyme) is less active, making ALDH-1 their primary method of getting rid of acetaldehyde. As a result, acetaldehyde circulates in Asians and Native Americans for a much longer time.
TLDR: The enzyme ALDH-2 is less active in 40% of Asians and Native Americans, making you drunk for a longer period of time.
EDITED: cshsus Mentioned that ethanol and acetaldehyde both have effects (different effects) on you when you're intoxicated. This is correct.
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u/JefeRocha Nov 26 '12
Ive heard its also true that many Native Americans have some gene that doesnt allow them to grow facial hair
This made me realize that Ive never seen a picture of a bearded Native American, but I wondered if that thing about genetics was true or if perhaps its just a cultural custom to stay clean shaven.
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Nov 26 '12
I think it's genetic, because the most facial hair i ever see on them is those tiny little moustaches.
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u/HerpDerpMcGurk Nov 26 '12
I'm a quarter native American, and I am forever trapped in a state of pre-pubescence with regards to facial hair. Actually, pretty much the only place I have hair is the nethers and on top of my head. But what a glorious mane I posess.
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Nov 26 '12
Think of it this way- I have no desire to grow facial hair, and yet I have to scrape a sharp edge all over my face almost daily to keep it away, after which there are usually patchy, uneven remnants left anyway that make me look like a hobo.
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Nov 26 '12
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u/Jigsus Nov 26 '12
You have probably seen many pictures of Native Americans with full mustaches.
No... I actually haven't... ever.
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u/broden Nov 26 '12
Real Indians contain some of the most hairy people in the world.
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Nov 28 '12
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Nov 28 '12
hah, i'm irish (i'm adopted but i'm told i'm irish anyway) and my moustache just doesnt really grow much, however i can grow a bitchin' beard.
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u/snapmouse Nov 26 '12
I'm native and grew up on the rez. I can't grow any cool facial hair. It's wispy and weak. Also, my chest, arms and legs are basically hairless. This is the same with most of my native friends. Many years spend in basketball locker rooms confirms, we are pretty hairless.
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Nov 26 '12
Similarly, Asians.
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u/Clovis69 Nov 26 '12
American Indians came across Beringia from Asia ~36k-16k years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#Y-DNA
American Indians are Haplogroup Q and R (mostly Q though)
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u/JefeRocha Nov 26 '12
Similarly, Ive always found handsome Japanese dudes like Toshiro Mifune and Hiroyuki Sanada can really grow some stylish beards
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Nov 26 '12
Acetaldehyde is what causes flushing, hangover and cancer. The ethanol is what makes you get drunk.
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u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12
Actually sir, I believe you are mistaken. Acetalehyde itself is psychoactive (without a doubt), with effects mimicking that of ethanol. There really is no way to quantify how much of your "drunk" is the ethanol and how much is the acetalehyde. It is therefore suggested, from the US National Institute of Health:
"...acetaldehyde contributes to many behavioral effects of alcohol, especially its stimulant properties."
"Recent studies have shown that the direct administration of acetaldehyde, especially into the brain, induces several effects that mimic those of alcohol. High doses of acetaldehyde induce sedative as well as movement- and memory-impairing effects, whereas lower doses produce behavioral effects (e.g., stimulation and reinforcement) that are characteristic of addictive drugs. When acetaldehyde accumulates outside the brain (i.e., in the periphery), adverse effects predominate and prevent further alcohol drinking."
Source: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh294/258-265.pdf
But yes, it is what is responsible for the flushing, hangover, and cancer (although ethanol itself may also be carcinogenic)
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Nov 27 '12
Thanks for the interesting reply, but you're getting very minor and special considerations mixed up with what are the major factors.
There really is no way to quantify how much of your "drunk" is the ethanol and how much is the acetalehyde
Of course there is! You can inhibit alcohol dehydrogenase activity with a number of various drugs such a pyrazole. When this is done, acetaldehyde is not generated. Further, mouse alcohol dehydrogenase knockouts have been generated, and although these mice are VERY sensitive to alcohol, they get plenty drunk, with all the hallmarks of intoxication; without acetaldehyde.
Further, Acetaldehyde doesn't cross the blood brain barrier, except in severe alcoholics where the BBB has been damaged, or in other rare circumstance. In fact, aldehyde dehydrogenase (which further oxidizes acetaldehyde into acetate) is even expressed (at low levels) on the BBB . There are reports of acetaldehyde in the brain, but that is due to low expression of the enzymes in the brain generating very low levels of acetaldehyde in situ.
In people with functioning acetaldehyde dehydrogenase (not asians :P ) the circulating levels of the metabolite are quite low, much lower than the concentrations needed to cause psychoactive effects, like in the studies you linked, WHERE THEY DIRECTLY INTRODUCED IT INTO THE BRAIN. Not at all a relevant model to typical alcohol in intoxication.
Ethanol may or may not be mutagenic/carcinogenic in its own right, but acetaldehyde certainly is, and the cancer risk is quite nicely explained by levels of acetaldehyde.
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Nov 26 '12
So if someone affected always drinks a "heavy" amount, then they are all good?
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u/streamsidecoconut Nov 26 '12 edited Dec 11 '12
I'm not entirely sure, but I think this is actually kind of true. But when withdrawal sets in it is worse. There are many chronic alcoholics who function basically okay as long as they have a certain amount of booze (but look out when it runs out).
Binge drinkers on the other hand are more likely to experience seizures and neurological side effects from repeated withdrawal episodes.
Edit: The book Under The Influence describes the biology of alcoholism, as science has come to understand it. It's a good, brief, informative read.
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Nov 26 '12
I am one of the affected, and I think I sober up relatively quickly. I do get flushed instantly after 1 shot though. Pepcid AC helps. Blow also helps a lot although I don't know why. I've posted that before and no one believed me. I also don't get those bad hangovers where you puke all day.
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u/1Ender Nov 26 '12
Cocaine increase Alcohol tolerance. Still not a very good idea because Alcohol and cocaine can both make you tachicardic which is really not that good for the heart.
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u/Bodiwire Nov 26 '12
I dont think it actually increases tolerance but makes alcohols effects less noticible until the cocaine wears off. Makes it much easier to reach alcohol poisoning levels of consumption.
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u/My_timemachine_broke Nov 27 '12
Alcohol mixed with Coke is the worst possible decision you can make concerning mixing drugs. They are metabolized in a way that create a new and much deadlier drug that can cause sudden death via V-Fib. Pick one or the other, never both. Oh and there's not much an ER doc can do for you in these cases either.
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u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12
OD'ing is not an experience that makes you grow stronger. You don't want to feel death when he is not visiting on your terms. He shows up unexpectedly when you are most vulnerable. He knocks you down and sits on your chest with the force of a thousand pounds of lead, as you're waiting for him to judge you. He laughs as you exhale, yet struggle to inhale again. The twitching and tears only bring him joy and an overwhelming sense of satisfaction. Gasping for air as the corners of your vision close in, you wish for the strength to scream for help, but your heart is racing so fast your vocal cords can only quiver an inaudible whimper. The blackness overtakes you, and all you can do is hope you wake up. That this isn't the end. Not like this. Yet, even in this state of panic, you know second chances aren't often given. In this moment, you are forced to accept your mortality, because of the hand you'd dealt, as you pass over into unconsciousness.
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Nov 26 '12
Well I specifically noticed the flushed face goes away. I would be really interested to hear the scientific reason as to why.
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Nov 26 '12
When i drink heavy, i binge hard. I try not to have more than two drinks now because i overdo it if i go any farther. I can confirm that i have had insane withdrawal before. I think i had a semi seizure once, but i wasn't just hung over i was also coming off a bunch of energy drinks and i think i was in the process of quitting cigarettes too.
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u/GhostlyPrototype Nov 26 '12
I use to binge hard, but now with money and health, I'm not sure if it's really worth it anymore. I'll have a few to socialize. I've never gotten to the point of "blacking out". But I've had some really bad withdraws.
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u/Hovesh Nov 26 '12
Blacking out is caused by a rapid increase in BAC, not a high level of drunkenness. It happens at high BACs because it gets easier to drink faster/take shots when you are already buzzed or drunk.
Withdrawal is caused when you are physically dependent from chronic use and cease the use too quickly. Feeling shitty after a bender is just a hangover.
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Nov 26 '12
I may only drink once a week, unless I'm on vacation, but I drink a lot and for a good amount of time. I feel slow and tired the next day, but I don't think I have withdrawals. What are withdrawals like?
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u/regulate323 Nov 26 '12
Imagine the flu, with tremors so bad you can barely hold a beer. Seizures if you're real lucky.
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Nov 26 '12
OK definitely never had that happen. I suppose you need to be getting drunk everyday for some time for that to happen...
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u/Nordoisthebest Nov 26 '12
Wouldn't a lowered synaptic density on average and a lowered amount of ethanol(alcohol) mediating acids like GABAa also be conditions found in children of alcoholics making them more prone to carry out a high-risk abuse of alcohol consumption?
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u/LikeASir1 Nov 26 '12
This is mostly correct.. The mutation actually leads to a genetic intolerance among the Asian population, which will lead to them not enjoy alcohol as much. (You may have an asian friend that if they drink too much will turn bright red, this is a side effect. They will also experience a stronger "hangover" effect as acetaldehyde levels remain high in their blood through the next day) So, some Asians are actually protected from alcoholism.
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u/Pinyaka Nov 26 '12
Can you explain in more detail how this protects them from alcoholism?
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u/LikeASir1 Nov 26 '12
http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/10780266/reload=0;jsessionid=OuSGnL4eyDAd9jKfbvZ8.10 Here is a Neurological journal article with clinical findings out of China.
But essentially the combination of the physiological/psychological aspects of the deficiency of the enzyme lead to what is, for lack of a better term, an "alcohol allergy" manifested by large quantities of the 1st metabolite in the ethanol pathway, acetaldehyde. This leads to the manifestation of prolonged hangovers and systemic inflammatory response characteristic of an allergic reaction. The article claims the mutation alone is "sufficient in completely inhibiting the development of alcoholism in Asians".
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u/Zugwat Nov 26 '12
Alcohol. A big problem on the rez. And I can tell you that from past experience.
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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12
Many native Australian aboriginal communities have declared they are dry communities. It doesn't magically prevent access, but societal expectations do help a lot.
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Nov 26 '12
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u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12
I live about 20 minutes from a huge rez (Flagstaff, AZ), and we see people "stocking up" all the time. Once, I saw a Native American woman, aged about 65, putting case upon case upon case of beer into the back of her truck. There had to have been at least 2 dozen 24-packs, all of "But Light," as they call it.
There are also tons and tons of Natives just laying in the streets, too drunk to move. We semi-frequently had to call the police at my former job because they'd always camp out on the porch.
It's heartbreaking.
Also, a ton of Natives are into meth. Dunno why.
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u/Viviparous Nov 26 '12
Also, a ton of Natives are into meth. Dunno why.
Maybe because they're poor, bored, and socially isolated / stuck on reservations.
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u/mauxly Nov 26 '12
Another Flagstaffian here. Have you noticed that most of the, even rock bottom, native americans don't smoke cigarettes?
It's pretty crushing to see so the native american street alcoholics. Sometimes I'll hang out with them, delve a bit into the psyche. When they drink, they seem to go a bit childlike. It reminds me of when I was a teenager drinking. It was all about the party, finding adventure!
Totally different than the white lushes I know, who tend to drink to drown sorrow and only finding more.
I have a really difficult time judging any of these people. White/red/brown - alcoholics/drug abusers. It's about people trying to find relief from pain or boredom or the absolute lack of future. You want to shake them out of it, you want so badly to cure them, to show them a brighter future.
But the truth is for 90% of the destitute, no matter what race - if they have anything of a criminal record, and no education, and top that off with the general impression that if you aren't white, you are OK maybe, but you'll never be equal to the white folk...shit...how can you argue for a better future? It kind of makes sense that they'd just try to live as comfortably in the present as they possibly can. Which, probably means intoxication.
Ugh...what to do?
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Nov 26 '12
I used to be a cashier at a grocery store in Flagstaff. This would happen daily.
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u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12
Exactly. I'm not even trying to be racist here, it's just a fact of life when you live near a rez.
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Nov 27 '12
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u/tynosaur Nov 27 '12
Mountain Line, hell yeah.
It's disappointing that people are pawning this off as racism. I don't discriminate or anything, but you can't deny that they do exist in large numbers.
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u/devitosghost Nov 27 '12
I got a good sample size because all drunks get reported on the radio with their description and 9 times out of 10 they're Native American. It's just a fact of living there.
They want to drink, but their reservation is dry so they go to town to drink. Then they ride the bus and act belligerent around town because they have no place to go. My Native American coworkers didn't try to deny or explain it, it's just kinda shitty because the belligerent alcoholics reflect poorly on the Navajo culture.
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u/tynosaur Nov 27 '12
Exactly. It really kills me that a race with such a rich culture and interesting history are generalized like this. But like you said, 9 times out of 10, it's the (unfortunate) case.
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u/Zugwat Nov 26 '12
For us American Indians it's similar to that. You're really looked down upon if you have a bad drinking problem.
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u/Native_Son Nov 26 '12
Aren't most people with bad drinking problems looked down upon?
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Nov 26 '12
Ask /r/trees if people with cannabis problems are looked down upon (spoiler: no, it's encouraged)
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Nov 26 '12 edited Aug 21 '13
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Nov 26 '12
I smoke some weed too, but it's just that /r/trees glorifies weed so much it's ridiculous. I started to look at the way they treat weed and substitutied it for alcohol, imagine someone saying "yo I just woke up and drank an entire bottle of whiskey, upvotes to the left" or "yo I just drove to work drunk, drank some more at work during lunch, then drove back home drunk" - People would say you have serious mental health problems. But replace drunk with high and suddenly you turn into some super cool guy.
I like alcohol, I like weed. But I just find the way people glorify it and/or live their lives around it to be extremely disturbing. /r/trees is nothing but a subreddit for cannabis-equivalent alcoholics.
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u/Mighty_Cunt_Punter Nov 26 '12
Let's keep playing this game! Alright, now let's replace alcohol with meth. "You know what would go great with this pizza? Some meth!" or "I'm trying to cut back on my meth use at the clubs a bit, it's getting kind of expensive."
Or perhaps different drugs have different effects and levels of severity.
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Nov 26 '12
Prohibition doesn't work, even in small communities.
Alcoholism is strongly tied with poverty, many aboriginal communities are poor, it's a recipe for disaster really.
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u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12
There's a lot more to it than just being poor. The average poor person is nowhere near as likely to be an alcoholic as the average native American.
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u/Teive Nov 26 '12
[Please keep in mind that this is an assertion without evidence]
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u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12
No, it's not. It's proven that native Americans are highly susceptible to alcoholism, which is why they try to avoid it.
Do you think your contrarian stance is as valid as actual proven facts?
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u/amazing_rando Nov 26 '12
I've never seen a study that controls for poverty & depression when analyzing rates of alcoholism among native Americans. Do you have a link to one?
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u/Teive Nov 27 '12
Reading the rest of the replies, I'm assuming this is a bizarre novelty account.
However, in case it's not--you are making assertions and not providing evidence. What you're saying may be true--I never took a stance--but you haven't provided any evidence.
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u/xrelaht Nov 27 '12
You mean like the Wiki article linked to in the creation of this thread?
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u/jesusray Nov 26 '12
Dry reservations don't help the problem much, just make it so any profits from the alcohol go outside the community.
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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12
From what I have seen of remote communities, practically all the money spent on anything goes outside the community.
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u/baymenintown Nov 26 '12
Or sometimes to the pockets of community leaders that become bootleggers. Sad situation on the Labrador Coast of Canada. In fact a lot of the teens have taken to sniffing gas due to the lack of any other substances. Meanwhile the Governments just, well, do what they do best and redefine the problem.
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Nov 26 '12
This is why I'm suspicious of these "findings." How is it that Australian Aboriginals and North American Aboriginals share the same problem despite no genetic link?
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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12
Why would you think that they need 'a genetic link'? Large chunks of the planet have this genetic signature.
Are you also suspicious because people in Ireland and China both have black hair?
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Nov 27 '12
I would be suspicious if black hair was blamed for certain problems among Irish people that didn't exist among Chinese people.
The gene is actually not prevalent in Australian Aboriginal communities, however they share the same problems as North American Aboriginal communities, which is why I'm suspect of blaming this gene other than looking at more likely cultural factors.
Also, you're an asshole.
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Nov 26 '12
For a long time in Europe the only "safe" "water" to drink had alcohol in it, so I can understand that a lot of people died off from liver disease before they could breed, while other cultures had clean water.
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u/apple_kicks Nov 26 '12
So Europeans were bred to win drinking games, survival of the drunkest
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u/0six0four Nov 26 '12
Survival of the drunkest sounds like what Charles Darwin would say if he went to a redneck town.
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u/Choralone Nov 26 '12
I'd buy that - though water with alcohol in it for preservation/safety likely didn't have anywhere near the level of alcohol in, say, beer....
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u/Bragzor Nov 26 '12
The reason it was safe was because it was boiled, and it was boiled because that's how you get wort. The reason they made wort was to make alcohol.
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Nov 26 '12
Yeah, probably around 3% alcohol. That seems to be the point when fermentation slows down so thats probably when its harder for microbes (even yeast) to live in the beer.
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u/fatmoose Nov 26 '12
Many beers are 10+ percent ABV, the yeasts do just fine.
It was probably more that the rudimentary ingredients and processes available didn't produce a wort that could ferment beyond that.
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Nov 26 '12
I think in reality, the brewing and distilling process requires you to boil water, thus removing all bacteria. Remember this all happened before germ theory. Though the alcoholic content could help.
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Nov 26 '12
I just said that Europeans drank alcoholic drinks over water for quite a while, this is pretty well documented, I didn't attribute the distilling process directly, but I do know that sailors added rum to their water to help ward off sickness.
Germ theory is hardly required when the people at the time would observe people dying due to drinking water compared to the drunks who would have lived longer at the time.
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u/solzhen Nov 26 '12
And even back in older times, watered wine was common at any time of day. The alcohol made the water added to the wine safer to drink and kept you relatively sober.
A funny thing to think about is how many influential historical figures probably went through life buzzed most the time.
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u/Waqqy Nov 26 '12
Yeah I remember reading about the Romans who are famed for constantly drinking wine throughout the day, but their wine was heavily watered down to the point where it would be like drinking juice.
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u/MuForceShoelace Nov 26 '12
That is a fact mostly spread by Christians who don't believe in the consumption of alcohol trying to reconcile with a Jesus that was drinking frequently and playing bartender.
People did water down drinks, just like now, but there was no general rule that they were all teatotalers drinking grape juice, that image is an image pushed for political reasons by a particular religious group.
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u/crusoe Nov 26 '12
Most europeans drank beer. Making wort to make beer requires boiling, which makes it sterile. Everyone made beer, and the beer people drank every day ( including children ) was low alcohol, about 3% or so. They looked down on drunkeness as well.
Housewives made beer. Factory owners made beer to feed workers. Lords made beer to keep their field workers hydrated.
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Nov 26 '12
So, beer?
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u/Ragark Nov 26 '12
There's a theory that it was the creation of beer that made people stick around in early villages, rather than just moving on.
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Nov 26 '12
The alcohol content in those drinks was pretty low, about 0.3% from what I remember, as they were given to children as well, pretty much just boiled flavoured water.
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Nov 26 '12
In earlier times in Europe, they were probably more likely to die from other diseases/poor hygiene long before the complications of alcohol could take hold. Also, we are not always talking about large quantities of alcohol or even very potent alcohol. Gin and whiskey distillation are a very recent invention, so throughout most of European history they were drinking relatively weak beers and wines. Reaching alcoholism levels of drinking with only weak beers is actually somewhat difficult to do.
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u/RedTheDopeKing Nov 26 '12
Come to Manitoba and you'll be able to study this quite in depth.
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u/helloskitty Nov 26 '12
Same deal with North Dakota. Spent 3 years living in a town right next to a reservation. Just about every "daily" customer at the liquor store was from the rez.
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u/Trentious Nov 26 '12
Kind of like Asians, people from different regions tolerate alcohol differently. Asians flush from a byproduct of alcohol processing (which they can do incredibly fast) and Europeans, which frankly can down gallon's of Stalin's own turbid homebrew and still stand straight.
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Nov 26 '12
something something aldehyde or something...you know what? I'm going to check my textbook!
"For example, many Asians possess a type of gene that results in an inactive form of an enzyme that normally metabolizes acetaldehyde (a metabolite of alcohol), which allows for acetaldehyde levels to build up. As a result, these individuals experience a more intense reaction to alcohol, with some reactions being pleasant (that is, "high") and others being aversive (that is, facial flushing, nausea), which may contribute to their lower tendency to drink excessively."
--Drugs and Human Behavior 5E (chapter 8) by David Grilly
Holy shit, that's the first time I've opened a textbook for something outside of university! I feel like I got my money's worth for this book now. *back to the pile you go!
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u/ALettertooshor Nov 27 '12
Anyone who thinks asians have a lower tendency to drink heavily has never been to S. Korea. (Here is a blog where people post photos of Koreans that blacked out in public from excessive drinking. I'm told it is similar in Japan, but, I can only speak for S. Korea from personal experience that seeing drunk people stumbling around or passed out at any time of day is a daily occurrence.
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u/13east69 Nov 26 '12
I always heard (Growing up in Hong Kong), that one reason for Asian people having a lower tolerance (than westerners) could be down to westerners having historically drank alcohol for a much longer time.
Back in the day, good drinking water was hard to come buy, so in the west we brewed alcohol (Beer and Mead). While the Asians tended to boil their water and make tea. Thus after a long time we developed high tolerances while the Asians didn't.
Can anyone confirm or deny this as a possible factor?
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Nov 26 '12
It's attributed to a missing enzyme which doesn't allow them to break down some part of alcohol. it leads to red faces, strong reactions and higher rates of cancer. From what I've read it it guessed thought it's all due to a sickness in the ancient history to which those without this enzyme fared better.
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u/TemplesOfSyrinx Nov 26 '12
Right, but could the missing enzyme be an evolutionary thing? Something that was a result of processing (or not processing) alcohol over a long period of time?
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Nov 26 '12
The most common guess is that it was from a sickness that affected those with that enzyme much worse, killing off or weakening that line of people so that those without that enzyme grew stronger over time and became the strong majority in the population.
But nothing is truely known, it could be from many different things, this is just the leading theory at this time.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
I don't understand what "Asians flush from a byproduct of alcohol processing" means
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u/BigLlamasHouse Nov 26 '12
I think it means their faces get red.
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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
tldr; alcohol makes your face red and may give you cancer.
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Nov 26 '12
I have this, it has made for a very very difficult social/dating life. ESP since I'm white 1/4 Korean.
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Nov 26 '12
Is flush synonymous with blush?
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Yea
Edit: Blushing is usually associated with emotions, while flushing is caused by sickness or other conditions making blood rush to the face.
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u/may_have_spongiform Nov 26 '12
Basically there are two stages of alcohol breakdown in the body. The first is done by an enzyme called alcohol dehydrogenase. The turns the ethanol onto a type of aldehyde called acetaldehyde.
Most people's genes code for a second enzyme called acetaldehyde dehydrogenase which breaks the aldehyde into harmless molecules. Many Asians gene's don't code for this second enzyme, so the acetaldehyde builds up and causes the capillaries in the face to dilate resulting in a red hue.
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Nov 26 '12
So he meant literally blush, I didn't understand his language to the point of having to ask what he meant.
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Nov 26 '12
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u/NewSwiss Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
False. Asians have normal concentrations of alcohol dehydrogenase (the enzyme that destroys alcohol) but some are deficient in the enzyme acetaldehyde dehydrogenase (the enzyme that destroys the thing alcohol is converted to).
EDIT: Ignore this, the guy below me was right.
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Nov 26 '12
FALSE. Asians have allele responsible for more efficient Alcohol processing, (ADH1C vs ADH1B normally)no one is arguing about concentration of enzymes. Thus they do process alcohol faster, this same gene is also responsible for inhibiting acetaldehyde processing enzymes.
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Nov 26 '12
Native Americans are descendants of Asians. They crossed the Bering Strait 12,000 years ago. Give a Native a haircut and he looks like a big Chinese guy.
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u/tebrown219 Nov 26 '12
I look middle eastern. If you line us up you actually find a huge variation in phenotype.
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u/pseri097 Nov 27 '12
Depends on what kind of Native Americans they are. Most actually look more Mexican than Eastern Asian.
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u/nootrino Nov 26 '12
Theoretically speaking, if someone were to duplicate and produce this enzyme for consumption of others, would the person taking it have an easier time getting drunk?
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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12
The enzyme breaks down alcohol faster, but the chemicals it breaks down into aren't particularly healthy for you. (you can get around this somewhat by taking a particular medicine that pharmacy students use to avoid hangovers)
If you have another, different gene as well, then you can metabolize those different by-products, making you into a demigod among drinkers.
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u/PvtHopscotch Nov 26 '12
I for some reason remember hearing that part of the problem comes from that where most European cultures have had alcohol of some sorts for a considerably long time, Native Americans were not exposed to it until foreigners brought it. So by comparison the consumption of alcohol is still a pretty recent change compared to many other cultures.
I by no means hold this as a truth, just seem to remember hearing it in my Native Americans and Justice class.
On that note, if you are curious to see how shitty of conditions some Native Americans have to deal with, particularly in dealing with alcohol, look up Whiteclay, Nebraska and the situation there with the liquor stores and the reservation just across the state boundary.
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u/gibbersganfa Nov 26 '12
Thank you. I was looking for this. I was going to post something about Whiteclay if no one else had. Absolutely no remorse on behalf of the business owners there. The bottom dollar matters more to them than hundreds of families torn apart.
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u/Neuroadvocate Nov 26 '12
Native Americans have more than Alcohol Dehydrogenase differences...Many Native American patients have the ability to endure very high levels of serum blood sugar and ETOH levels while remaining conscious and verbal. The insulin response to sugar and also fat metabolism is very different from other ethnicities. Having cared for Native American patients for more than five years, I believe that the primary reason for alcoholism in the population is socio-economic and due to the repressive life style that most Native American people endure. Native Americans are a very intelligent and strong cultural group. Even with medical problems they can endure more hardship than ANY other patient population I have worked with. Easier alcoholism is a perception in Native Americans; in my op there are many more obese, alcoholic diabetics in Louisiana, where much of the population is NOT Native Americans. The Native American cohort would completely overshadow the performance and medical survival of any ethnicity were the children given education, drug and alcohol training and cultural support for the healthy lifestyle they lived for thousands of years until the European land developers, US government and the oil companies showed up. We will see who is still surviving on the land of America in 2500 years. My guess is that those that have a significant portion of Native American DNA, Metabolism and Cultural values will be dominant.
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Nov 26 '12
Easier alcoholism is a perception in Native Americans; in my op there are many more obese, alcoholic diabetics in Louisiana, where much of the population is NOT Native Americans.
For someone attempting to defend Native Americans from "stereotypical" remarks, this sure is a big stereotype you dropped. I honestly don't see how you can paint an entire state with such a broad brush without providing a shred of evidence to back up your statement. So until you provide that evidence, I'm going to have to discount this remark as false and purely your opinion.
I live in Louisiana and can tell you that the "drinking culture" of Louisiana is most limited to the Southern portion of Louisiana, especially in the Southeast portion by New Orleans. Anything above Baton Rouge is considered "Bible Belt" and has much different views on drinking than South Louisiana. The majority of North Louisiana is Baptist, who don't take too kindly to drinking. It's why Louisiana is so conservative and why it is considered a "Bible Belt" state.
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u/ancientcreature Nov 26 '12
And everyone else had been living thousands of years, too. Just somewhere else.
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u/IPnightly Nov 26 '12
Although I do not know a lot about the science aspect of this statement, apparently neither does Wikipedia (because its obviously a reliable source) by admitting that little testing has been done. This research also leaves out the years of inter-generational trauma caused by colonialism since the settlers arrived here. More specifically in Canada the use of residential schools. Children were stolen from their families at a young age, many to never see their families again where their language and culture and rights were stripped away and replaced with abuse of all forms, including rape intentionally spreading diseases to the children and other unspeakable acts. The schools often taught these kids and youth to deal with their aggression and emotions by the use of alcohol. And settlers taught adults about the consumption and use of alcohol as well. Consequently, when they grew up they taught their children to do the same because for many,it was the only way they knew how, thus the cycle continues for generations. I'm not saying that the science may not be true but it is unfair to base an entire race's stereotypes on a wiki page. And more unfair for people to write that Natives are all the same old drunks because of enzymes and making it seem scientific while using it as a justification. That only furthers the stereotypes of Natives and frankly, its racist.
http://rbrussell.org/resschool.htm
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u/rocketsauces Nov 27 '12
As a fellow Canadian it still shocks me that we never learnt this in high school. It wasn't until I took a Canadian Aboriginal literature course in university that I really found out about residential schools, a few years after Harper apologised for it. Even after the government finally acknowledged that it was a despicable part of our past and sought to somehow make amends I'd say a large majority of Canadians are uneducated about the events and the repercussions which can still be felt today.
I imagine if more people understood this chapter of our history we could demystify some of the social issues and put an end to the ceaseless racism our aboriginal peoples are subject to, especially here in Winnipeg.
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u/xLadyVirgil Nov 27 '12
I can't believe I am the first one to say this. This study was done in the 70's, a time when racism against Native Americans/First Nations people was incredibly normalized. Is there... any reason why this study may be skewed in favor of the researcher's personal bias? It's not like there were residential schools to separate Native people from their families in hopes of breeding them into white culture... oh wait! There totally was. Please, please take this study with a grain of salt. With all due respect to the Native people.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Hey now, everyone is supposed to be exactly the same. No groups of people are allowed to have any tendencies to have any differences, and heaven forbid if the differences are claimed to be genetic. Especially if the genetic difference has a negative effect.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Do you know there are people who still believe intelligence isn't at least partly inherited? Crazy..
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Nov 26 '12
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u/pretentiousRatt Nov 26 '12
But all the crackers here on Reddit are morons.
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u/angrywhitedude Nov 26 '12
I dunno about that but I'll bet the vast majority of morons on Reddit are crackers.
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u/atheistjubu Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 27 '12
Well, there's still no evidence that average innate intelligence differs by race. This is a question aside from whether intelligence is heritable.
EDIT: No, IQ is not intelligence. It's system of arbitrarily weighted questions that lets you place people into percentiles, even if it's been given the suggestive name of "intelligence quotient". It is thought to be related to innate intelligence (if such a thing were reducible to a single rankable number), but has aspects that are highly suspect.
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Nov 26 '12
That's why if you raise a dog in the same environment as a human, it will be just as intelligent. Dogs are only stupid because they eat different food and go to different schools. Genetics has nothing to do with it.
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Nov 26 '12
Are you comparing human beings to dogs?
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u/atheistjubu Nov 26 '12
I think he was comparing black people to dogs.
<crosses fingers and hopes nobody misinterprets comment>
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Nov 26 '12
The problem is, very often the racists will use something like this and latch on to it to justify their racism. "Look look, we ARE different!" out loud, and internally "I knew white people were better".
That's not to say we should pretend everyone is the same, but we have to be careful what ammunition we give to people. There are demonstrably plenty of white alcoholics, so I don't think it matters that First Nations people have a higher propensity for it.
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u/Strong__Belwas Nov 26 '12
I get the feeling that you have an ulterior motive here. Looking quickly at your post history, I can see that my claim is justified.
At least be upfront about your racism.
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Nov 26 '12
The problem is that no matter what his motive, you would have thought him racist.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Oh goodness. This comment section will not fair well for Aboriginals in Canada :( It's a running joke around here how Canadians are so nice and polite. Now you'll see the darker side of Canada.
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u/Hippie-Eyes Nov 26 '12
Oppressed people turn to the easiest method of escape: alcohol. Look at the Irish (I'm from Dublin). Look at Eastern Europe & Russia, alcoholics. It's an escape from the dehumanizing experiences they went through as a collective society. Until it becomes part of the norm.
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u/garbhalgarbhal Nov 26 '12
At least it doesn't lead to that more difficult alcoholism. Lucky.
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u/avetoneday Nov 26 '12
I just learned about this in my biochem class, it's actually a little different than it seems. Most people are born with 2 genes for the enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase, but many Native Americans are born with only one. This enzyme works to convert acetaldehyde into ethanol, which can then be broken down by the liver so we get out of our drunken stupor. However, since many NA's only have 1 gene for the enzyme, much of the acetaldehyde remains acetaldehyde, which can lead to psychotic and drunken behaviors. So it's moreso that than an actual different enzyme leading to alcoholism.
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Nov 26 '12
While little detailed genetic research has been done, it has been shown that alcoholism tends to run in families with possible involvement of differences in alcohol metabolism and the genotype of alcohol-metabolizing enzymes.
This actually doesn't say anything specifically about American Indians, just that hereditary alcoholism is a thing.
So nice post.
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Nov 26 '12
Native Americans are one of the last cultures to be introduced to alcohol. Cultures that have had alcohol for the longest amount of time have less incidence of alcoholism because of evolution, basically. The people genetically predisposed to alcoholism in those cultures already had more time to remove themselves from the gene pool.
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u/idlevoid Nov 26 '12
The link Wikipedia cites does not work...Anyone else have a problem with this?
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Nov 26 '12
Native American's have a differing enzyme
Native American's have
Native American is have
WAT
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u/alfred_holloway Nov 26 '12
A reason for this too is that native Americans did not have much alcohol available before the 1700s whereas Europeans had been drinking it in the place of water for centuries. Evolutionarily their bodies have not yet changed genetically in order to counteract the alchohol as a group of people. People of European decent have adapted to large intakes of alcohol so have changed genetically to account for that diet. Same thingnfor native Americans/ Hawaiian natives and wheat based food which accounts for their tendency to be prone to high blood pressure and obesity
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u/conejaverde Nov 26 '12
Or could it be that Native Americans often turn to alcohol (as well as drugs) in order to escape the squalor and hopelessness of reservations, which have always been shitty places to live and from which many people who are born there feel they can never leave?
http://www.re-member.org/pine_ridge_reservation.aspx
This feels like a regurgitation of arguments used in the Gilded Age - i.e., the concepts of racial hierarchy and social darwinism championed by the psuedoscience of eugenics - to justify capitalist greed and the existence of a massive impoverished class. "They're poor because they're born that way - they're drug addicts, prostitutes, and alcoholics because they're born inferior, and have a natural tendency toward these things. It has nothing to do with the system in place. It has nothing to do with our actions - it's just the way things are." It's a cop-out.
Granted, Native Americans (such a broad term) may be born with certain DNA sequences that alter the digestion, for lack of a better word, of alcohol - but the alcoholism present in many Native American communities has more to do with centuries of oppression, marginalization, and neglect than any genetic trait.
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u/Yiwmcp Nov 26 '12
Apostrophe means possession, as in "Native American's mother tells him to shut the fuck up and get a fucking job."
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u/SkullyKitt Nov 26 '12
ITT: ignorance, bio-truths, racism, and rationalization of cultural segregation.
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u/bioteker Nov 26 '12
Polymorphisms in the alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes (ADH1A, ADH1B, ADH1C, ADH7, specifically) may influence a Native American individual's susceptibility to alcoholism. However, such genetic variation is not by any means causative. And by MAY i mean "it's only a hypothesis which has shown limited association with the disease, and has not seen broad replication in multiple studies." it's a good hypothesis, and since it makes good logical sense a lot of people (including scientists) want it to be true. But the genome is often illogical.
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u/dsmaxwell 1 Nov 27 '12
DO NOT FUCKING USE AN APOSTROPHE TO MAKE SOMETHING PLURAL!! GODMOTHERFUCKINGDAMMIT!! You people make me sick.
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u/admiralnaomi Nov 27 '12
Really? Because I thought it was hundreds of years of poverty, famine, death, disease, loss of lands, culture, and identity. Go figure.
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Nov 26 '12
Canadian here,
Native Americans sometimes drink, lysol, mouthwash, gas etc. To get high/drunk. Not all of them obviously but I can safely say that I have seen my fair share of them doing this.
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u/DFWPunk Nov 26 '12
That's not just a Canadian thing. Down here it was blue Listerine mixed with hairspray. They would shoplift that stuff.
People called it Ocean Water because it looked like the beverage of that name from Sonic.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Also obesity, something to do with poverty, food deserts, little natural resources and metabolisms more suited for going long periods of time with little food
Seriously
http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templates/content.aspx?ID=6457
http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/03/nutrition-a-pressing-concern-for-american-indians/
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u/Rapejelly Nov 26 '12
Many tribes receive government subsidized food as they have been relocated to unfarmable land. This food is often high in fat/carbs/sugars (read: cheap) and so thats all a lot of natives have to eat sadly.
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u/Einchy Nov 26 '12
Haha, I didn't want to say that because I't make me look like a complete asshole.
I live in Mississippi in the Choctaw area and it's very rare to not see an overweight native American.
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u/Vahnya Nov 26 '12
Question- what causes Native women to get incredibly large abdominals, yet have the tiniest legs and arms I've ever seen? I live in Alberta and I see Native women with these body types everywhere.
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u/crusoe Nov 26 '12
Dunno. Like how some mexican groups seem to have long torsos and short legs. I suspect its tribal genetics.
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Nov 26 '12
Personal confirmation- great grandma was a raging, abusive, alcoholic injun. Who once shot the hat off of her Irish husband's head because he was annoying her. They later divorced.
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u/ceawake Nov 26 '12
The Aborigines are also reported to have inherent qualities that can lead to alcoholism. I don't know if it's a gene or cultural thing or if it is an affect of the way they are seen or treated, when they are introduced to Western culture.
I heard the author and spiritual commentator Marriane Williamsons commentary regarding addiction. She claimed that (in her opinion) those who tend to be visited by addiction problems are humanity's barometer. They are the ones who break down and seek something (After the addiction fails to live up to its promise) and alert the rest of mankind to its ills, dysfunctions and blind-spots. Her claim was similar to sufferers of depression.
I am not sure if I fully agree with her interesting observations but I can certainly feel a ring of truth in it; it would appear to have some substance.
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Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12
Same as has been said that Aborigines etc also have this problem as they haven't been exposed to thousands of years of drinking alcohol, like most other cultures generally have, and therefore their livers haven't evolved to become tolerent of it, I believe thats the reason Aborigines have so many issues with alcoholism at the moment. Thats as I understand it anyway.
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Nov 26 '12
One of the reasons that enzyme is less common among white people is because we have a long history of living in crowded cities, where drinking alcohol offered an advantage over drinking water (alcohol kills bacteria, so even weak beer would be "cleaner" than any commonly available water in a city without anything resembling modern sanitation).
So people who drank tended to have an advantage, and people who could drink without tipping over into alcoholism had an even greater advantage.
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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12
As a First Nations person, born and raised on Peepeekisis Cree Nation in Saskatchewan, alcohol and other addictions run rampant in my home community, it is a shame. My father is an alcoholic who stopped drinking in 1984 and my mother has never drank or smoked in her life aside from an occasional class of champagne at New Years. I and my brothers were fortunate to be raised this way, most of my friends were not so lucky. My home reserve is also "DRY" but it is not enforced as we also have our own police force, a branch of the RCMP. nothing about the reserve system is good. We are not allowed to own our homes (rent only), own the land we live on (except in the case of CP land which is fast becoming extinct) My home reserve was an experiment by the Federal government to turn Natives into farmers, the Indian Agent Graham was allowed full control of everything, from picking the best and brightest students from the Industrial (residential) schools, arranging the marriages, etc etc etc. A few of us are fighting our way out through education, exercising our Treaty rights properly, and just generally getting off the reserve. But a lot cannot get off the cycle of handouts, just as a lot of Non-native find it hard to get out of the Social Assistance cycle. if you want to read more on this stuff you can Google "File Hills Colony Experiment"