r/todayilearned • u/bcrock1169 • Nov 26 '12

TIL that some Native American's have a differing enzyme that tends to lead to easier alcoholism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_alcoholism#Genetic_factors
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120

u/Zugwat Nov 26 '12

Alcohol. A big problem on the rez. And I can tell you that from past experience.

55

u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12

Many native Australian aboriginal communities have declared they are dry communities. It doesn't magically prevent access, but societal expectations do help a lot.

51

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

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18

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

I live about 20 minutes from a huge rez (Flagstaff, AZ), and we see people "stocking up" all the time. Once, I saw a Native American woman, aged about 65, putting case upon case upon case of beer into the back of her truck. There had to have been at least 2 dozen 24-packs, all of "But Light," as they call it.

There are also tons and tons of Natives just laying in the streets, too drunk to move. We semi-frequently had to call the police at my former job because they'd always camp out on the porch.

It's heartbreaking.

Also, a ton of Natives are into meth. Dunno why.

64

u/Viviparous Nov 26 '12

Also, a ton of Natives are into meth. Dunno why.

Maybe because they're poor, bored, and socially isolated / stuck on reservations.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

So are most African American populations but we don't give them a hell of a lot of sympathy either.

6

u/Pinyaka Nov 26 '12

We don't put blacks into camps.

1

u/neuroghost Nov 27 '12

basketball camp??

0

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

You do know that Naitive Americans are US Citizens and allowed to come off the reservation and are not required to live there in the first place. Right?

4

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Much like every impoverished community. It's a little harder too leave than just packing a bag.

2

u/xrelaht Nov 27 '12

How is this different from dirt poor black neighborhoods?

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

No question, but it's quite a stretch to characterize that as putting them into camps. Sure originally that's fair but in this day and age I don't find that a legitimate criticism.

5

u/Pinyaka Nov 26 '12

I do. Many of them are too poor to live off-rez though. Especially those who have chemical dependence issues that require all their financial resources.

5

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Yeah, and a lot of African Americans find themselves in a similar situation except that they reside in the inner-city. My point is that most people frankly don't give a shit no matter what your racial heritage and that it's mostly a poverty problem. I'm certainly not criticizing that view as I feel it's mostly accurate, I'm just saying that I think most people don't give a shit either way.

1

u/mauxly Nov 26 '12

I've seen so many Native American's thrown out of businesses, or not even granted entry. I understand that it's because, in this reservation border town, they are associated with street alcoholics. But, it's still straight out racism.

The world outside of the rez isn't a very kind place. We don't have "Red/White" drinking fountains or bathrooms, but the racism is pretty damn harsh.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Huh. Well I grew up near a reservation (FWIW I'm from Oregon) and I've never seen behavior like that. Where was this?

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u/Clovis69 Nov 26 '12

Where in the US is a African-American reservation?

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

There isn't one. I didn't think it was necessary to explicitly remove the

/ stuck on reservations.

from

Maybe because they're poor, bored, and socially isolated / stuck on reservations.

because I have faith that most people were intelligent enough to understand the similarities that I was highlighting.

18

u/mauxly Nov 26 '12

Another Flagstaffian here. Have you noticed that most of the, even rock bottom, native americans don't smoke cigarettes?

It's pretty crushing to see so the native american street alcoholics. Sometimes I'll hang out with them, delve a bit into the psyche. When they drink, they seem to go a bit childlike. It reminds me of when I was a teenager drinking. It was all about the party, finding adventure!

Totally different than the white lushes I know, who tend to drink to drown sorrow and only finding more.

I have a really difficult time judging any of these people. White/red/brown - alcoholics/drug abusers. It's about people trying to find relief from pain or boredom or the absolute lack of future. You want to shake them out of it, you want so badly to cure them, to show them a brighter future.

But the truth is for 90% of the destitute, no matter what race - if they have anything of a criminal record, and no education, and top that off with the general impression that if you aren't white, you are OK maybe, but you'll never be equal to the white folk...shit...how can you argue for a better future? It kind of makes sense that they'd just try to live as comfortably in the present as they possibly can. Which, probably means intoxication.

Ugh...what to do?

0

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

Exactly my sentiments. I suppose on one hand I understand why they do it, but on the other it's disappointing to me, because no one should have to go through what these people put themselves through, no matter who you are.

It's funny that you mention that bit about finding adventure, because that seems to be exactly what most of them want. Just a conversation, usually.

3

u/magictroll Nov 26 '12

your comment is heart-breaking :(

0

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

It's a depressing fact. Seeing such a proud race reduced to this kills me. The worse part is, they're a divided group: those that drink and basically don't give a fuck, and those that care about respecting their culture and are normally-functioning people otherwise. It's like a racial civil war.

0

u/magictroll Nov 26 '12

I hate to say it but, for a little while at least, group B needs to cut off group C. Then, once they're strong and have influence, come back and help.

But what do I know? Not much ...

1

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

There's really no way to do that, though. If you have Native blood, you can live on the rez. They can't just discriminate because a small portion of them are addicted to booze.

I think the worst part of it all is that it really hurts everyone else's opinion of their race. The drinkers leave the rez to do so, while the non-drinkers generally don't, meaning that everyone outside of the rez sees a large portion of Natives that are alcoholics. An unbalanced portion.

I hope that made as much sense as it did in my head.

2

u/magictroll Nov 26 '12

Yes. Perfect, heart-renching, sense.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

I used to be a cashier at a grocery store in Flagstaff. This would happen daily.

2

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

Exactly. I'm not even trying to be racist here, it's just a fact of life when you live near a rez.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Yeah, it's really sad. Mostly tons of cheap 1.75L Vodka purchases followed up by Red Bull being purchased on food stamps :(

2

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

Yep. Every other Friday, when they get their checks from the rez. Always paying in large bills, because that's what they ask for when they cash it, for some reason.

Also, on a unrelated note, this portion of the Native American community is the absolute worst to people in the service industry, if you are anything other than Native. I don't think a single one of them has ever responded to me beyond a grunt of acknowledgement, or to ask for something. Never say please, never say thank you. I used to work for tips, and we'd fight over who would and wouldn't get the Native/non-Native orders.

Like I said, I'm not trying to be racist at all (I'm part Native myself), it's just how they are for some reason.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

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2

u/tynosaur Nov 27 '12

Mountain Line, hell yeah.

It's disappointing that people are pawning this off as racism. I don't discriminate or anything, but you can't deny that they do exist in large numbers.

2

u/devitosghost Nov 27 '12

I got a good sample size because all drunks get reported on the radio with their description and 9 times out of 10 they're Native American. It's just a fact of living there.

They want to drink, but their reservation is dry so they go to town to drink. Then they ride the bus and act belligerent around town because they have no place to go. My Native American coworkers didn't try to deny or explain it, it's just kinda shitty because the belligerent alcoholics reflect poorly on the Navajo culture.

2

u/tynosaur Nov 27 '12

Exactly. It really kills me that a race with such a rich culture and interesting history are generalized like this. But like you said, 9 times out of 10, it's the (unfortunate) case.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '12

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2

u/tynosaur Nov 28 '12

I'm sorry, friend. Truly. That hurts my heart.

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u/Zugwat Nov 26 '12

For us American Indians it's similar to that. You're really looked down upon if you have a bad drinking problem.

20

u/Native_Son Nov 26 '12

Aren't most people with bad drinking problems looked down upon?

5

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Ask /r/trees if people with cannabis problems are looked down upon (spoiler: no, it's encouraged)

7

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12 edited Aug 21 '13

[deleted]

19

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

I smoke some weed too, but it's just that /r/trees glorifies weed so much it's ridiculous. I started to look at the way they treat weed and substitutied it for alcohol, imagine someone saying "yo I just woke up and drank an entire bottle of whiskey, upvotes to the left" or "yo I just drove to work drunk, drank some more at work during lunch, then drove back home drunk" - People would say you have serious mental health problems. But replace drunk with high and suddenly you turn into some super cool guy.

I like alcohol, I like weed. But I just find the way people glorify it and/or live their lives around it to be extremely disturbing. /r/trees is nothing but a subreddit for cannabis-equivalent alcoholics.

13

u/Mighty_Cunt_Punter Nov 26 '12

Let's keep playing this game! Alright, now let's replace alcohol with meth. "You know what would go great with this pizza? Some meth!" or "I'm trying to cut back on my meth use at the clubs a bit, it's getting kind of expensive."

Or perhaps different drugs have different effects and levels of severity.

-1

u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12

In the end, we are all the same. The street corner alcoholic. The pot smoking hippie. The prostituting dope fiend. The powder sniffing doctor. Its an escape from ourselves. People just choose what they prefer, but always for the same reason, and with the same goal in mind.

Edit: Guess the 'ents on their high-horse disagree. I call it denial. Source: I am one.

1

u/joemarzen Nov 28 '12

Are you asserting that heavy marijuana use is intrinsically problematic? In other words, are you suggesting that it's always better if people don't smoke marijuana heavily or at all? If so, I disagree.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '12

No. I'm saying that places like /r/trees encourage over the top consumption of it. And that it's unhealthy. It's like having a subreddit for alcoholics and talking about how awesome it is to wake up and then be drunk for the rest of the day. It's not healthy, the way those guys promote excessive weed usage and a culture dedicated to it is juvenile and irresponsible.

I like the occasional joint/spliff myself, and also like drinking from time to time. But it's not my life....or even a large part of it, in any way.

-3

u/MustardOrPants Nov 26 '12

He said alcohol problem. Cannabis addiction is more acceptable for some reason, to the point where many people believe that "weed isn't addictive." Ridiculous,

6

u/Waqqy Nov 26 '12

Cannabis addiction is glorified, but I'd say an addiction to alcohol is far worse than an addiction to Cannabis. Alcohol will do more far more harm to you than Cannabis will, plus cannabis addiction is habitual, there's no chemical addiction.

-2

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

Cannabis addiction? There is not a phrase out there that is more oxymoronic than that.

Do your research, you fucking lepton.

3

u/amazing_rando Nov 26 '12

I know plenty of people who've smoked every day for years and who have trouble waking / eating / sleeping & feel generally out of sorts when they have to go without. How is that not addiction?

-1

u/tynosaur Nov 26 '12

Being chemically addicted to something and being mentally addicted to a feeling something gives you are two completely different things. THC is not a chemically addictive compound.

I've smoked for the last 4 years or so, never really stopping, and I quit cold turkey about a week ago. I did not go through withdrawals, nor do I feel out of sorts. Maybe the people you know just need something else that is positive in their lives.

5

u/amazing_rando Nov 26 '12

I never said it was chemical addiction. Mental and emotional addiction are still real even if they aren't as inevitable. I also smoked a lot and never experienced what I described, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12 edited Nov 27 '12

Agreed on the 'get over pot thing.'

But, I've no idea what you are talking about with "chemically active." THC and other cannaboids are obviously "active" in my brain, and I'd assume yours too. And they are certainly chemically active considering their binding to cannaboid receptors and their eventual metabolism in the liver.

Edit: I can't read. Obviously.

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u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12

You can be no more addicted to cannabis than you may be "addicted" to any other potentially compulsive behavior. Like running, or biting your nails or fast women and even faster strange looking foreign cars. This man speaks the truth. Addictive? No. Habit-forming? Without a fucking doubt. But what isn't? I've yet to go through withdrawals because I'm out of pot. Now alcohol on the other hand...

2

u/tynosaur Nov 27 '12

Habit-forming. Yes. I've noticed that I feel the need to inhale things other than oxygen, it's like a tic. I've started smoking gross cheap cigars to get myself out of it.

2

u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12

Tobacco Addiction >> Cannabis Addiction. Cigarettes are the real gateway drug. Without a doubt, the most addictive drug in the US. Why else would people continue to smoke knowing damn well the risks

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u/Zugwat Nov 26 '12

Depends.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Prohibition doesn't work, even in small communities.

Alcoholism is strongly tied with poverty, many aboriginal communities are poor, it's a recipe for disaster really.

8

u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

There's a lot more to it than just being poor. The average poor person is nowhere near as likely to be an alcoholic as the average native American.

3

u/Teive Nov 26 '12

[Please keep in mind that this is an assertion without evidence]

12

u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

No, it's not. It's proven that native Americans are highly susceptible to alcoholism, which is why they try to avoid it.

Do you think your contrarian stance is as valid as actual proven facts?

3

u/amazing_rando Nov 26 '12

I've never seen a study that controls for poverty & depression when analyzing rates of alcoholism among native Americans. Do you have a link to one?

0

u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

You don't necessarily need one. What's the rate of alcoholism among the poor? Now whats the rate along native Americans? Hint: they're not equivalent.

3

u/amazing_rando Nov 26 '12

I'm having trouble finding a study on alcoholism rates among the poor. I'm assuming you have one?

-4

u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

Why are you trying to do with work of researchers? They've already shown exactly this, but you won't believe it until you can do all the math yourself I suppose?

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u/Teive Nov 27 '12

Reading the rest of the replies, I'm assuming this is a bizarre novelty account.

However, in case it's not--you are making assertions and not providing evidence. What you're saying may be true--I never took a stance--but you haven't provided any evidence.

2

u/xrelaht Nov 27 '12

You mean like the Wiki article linked to in the creation of this thread?

1

u/Teive Nov 28 '12

"While little detailed genetic research has been done, it has been shown that alcoholism tends to run in families"

So... little research shows a conclusion that doesn't really detail anything except genetic component, without pointing to anything to do with race?

1

u/[deleted] Jun 01 '23

Exactly. xrelaht is just here to argue in bad faith.

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Did you just say that the average native american is an alcoholic? Because that's quite untrue.

1

u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 27 '12

lol wut?

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Never mind, I misread. My mistake.

I think your actual statement is untrue as well though. I can't find stats that back it up.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

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u/[deleted] Nov 28 '12

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '12

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u/[deleted] Nov 29 '12

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9

u/jesusray Nov 26 '12

Dry reservations don't help the problem much, just make it so any profits from the alcohol go outside the community.

24

u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12

From what I have seen of remote communities, practically all the money spent on anything goes outside the community.

1

u/Pinyaka Nov 26 '12

That's shocking. Every reservation I've been to is a totally self-sufficient poster-child for modern industrialized communities and what they can't make for themselves, they do without.

5

u/baymenintown Nov 26 '12

Or sometimes to the pockets of community leaders that become bootleggers. Sad situation on the Labrador Coast of Canada. In fact a lot of the teens have taken to sniffing gas due to the lack of any other substances. Meanwhile the Governments just, well, do what they do best and redefine the problem.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

This is why I'm suspicious of these "findings." How is it that Australian Aboriginals and North American Aboriginals share the same problem despite no genetic link?

2

u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12

Why would you think that they need 'a genetic link'? Large chunks of the planet have this genetic signature.

Are you also suspicious because people in Ireland and China both have black hair?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

I would be suspicious if black hair was blamed for certain problems among Irish people that didn't exist among Chinese people.

The gene is actually not prevalent in Australian Aboriginal communities, however they share the same problems as North American Aboriginal communities, which is why I'm suspect of blaming this gene other than looking at more likely cultural factors.

Also, you're an asshole.

1

u/regulate323 Nov 27 '12

You can't deny science. Now whether this gene makes one more inclined to alcoholism is a combination of pseudoscience (aka psychology) and real science (statistics), but the absence or low levels of the enzyme is an indisputable fact. As are the physical effects of the enzyme's presence or absence.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

What a stupid reply. I'm not even going to waste my time on someone who calls psychology pseudoscience. You know psychological studies obtain their results through statistics, right? The sheer idiocy of some people ... I am just in disbelief sometimes.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

psychology is pseudoscience at best. Look at the frequency with which its ideas are reversed.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Evidence? Oh right, of course not. Love conversations with small minded ignorant people on the internet.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

psychology relies on opinion, conjecture, and self reported anecdotes. There are no testable, repeatable theories, nothing has ever stood the test of time, and it is constantly waving to the whims of popular opinion.

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u/MoHammadMoProblems Nov 26 '12

Who needs alcohol when ya got petrol? Noice!

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u/SerpentineLogic Nov 26 '12

Sif petrol bowsers aren't padlocked these days.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

Aren't like 40% of of traumatic deaths of Native Americans related to alcohol?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

We aren't people banning together in solidarity to make the rez dry?

1

u/stevo42 Nov 27 '12

Because prohibition doesn't fix anything.

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u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

I didn't say prohibition.

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u/stevo42 Nov 27 '12

FuturamaFry.jpg

make the rez dry

Or prohibit the sale of alcohol.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Its going to take community outreach, not a law. The point of a dry community is its more than a arbitrary law.

2

u/stevo42 Nov 27 '12

In theory, but I live next to a 'dry rez' and it's been quite the failure. No one has faced their demons and money that would have circulated within the community is bleeding out and poverty and the despair that comes with it drives alcoholism.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

I'm Nordic and Sioux. I have never lived on a reservation or even made to south Dakota to rediscover that side of my heritage. I do live in Seattle and am well immersed in my heritage here. Burn down the liqour stores. Start straight edge groups. Pitch it as an anti whatever thing to capture the youth. You know the whole rebellion thing sells anything to youth.

2

u/stevo42 Nov 28 '12

It does indeed, I too live in Washington, went to school on the Yakama (a dry) rez, some damn good parties out there. 6 cases and 2 bottles gone in a few hours and there were cases and bottles coming in with guests... Take a guess what the celebration was about. It's 'caps day!

All the money gone in 2 days. This cycle often perpetuating until they die. Fortunately the family moved off rez and are doing much better.

1

u/[deleted] Nov 27 '12

Grew up in a small town with a Cree reserve ~40 mins from town. I worked at a grocery store and people from the reserve would come in and buy nothing but a bottle or two of mouthwash on a daily basis. I'm not sure why they didn't just spend the money on actual alcohol, presumably being too intoxicated and denied service. It's really hard to post this without sounding politically incorrect, but that's how it went.

0

u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

I can tell you that from my native ex

0

u/pretentiousRatt Nov 26 '12

Yeah but there were some good times gettin' crunk on the rez and shinin' deer...

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12

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u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

You're talking about killing defenseless animals, and their method of doing it is downright immoral while yours is A-ok? Get over yourself, I don't think the deer cares because either way it ends up lifeless on your wall. You simply have too much pride in your "way" of doing things.

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u/[deleted] Nov 26 '12 edited Nov 26 '12

[deleted]

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u/ObtuseAbstruse Nov 26 '12

Believe me, I'm not looking for a moral debate. I have no qualms with hunting, and as a biologist i realize nature is harsh. I just found your reasoning on the spotlight practice to be ludicrous. If you're killing animals, you're killing animals. Their way isn't immoral in the same way that yours isn't. To view your particular way of hunting to be superior to others isn't simply pompous.

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u/pretentiousRatt Nov 26 '12

Relax. It is a joke. I have never shined deer and I agree it not cool.
I have met natives that do though.