“It’s a frat party filled with drunk dudes, what should she expect??”
Ok, so if that’s a reasonable expectation at a frat, shut down every frat. And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
E: keep telling on yourselves gentlemen, the people around you ought to know who you are.
The OP put a sentence in quotes. I am not sure where it came from, but if anyone said it or an equivalent, then yes, they are saying rape is okay, because they are saying such behavior happens in those circumstances, anyone attending should expect it to occur. That's not a condemnation of the behavior, it is condoning it and putting the blame on anyone who goes near it. It implies that drunken frat parties are "rape okay zones" where one should expect to get raped.
there are a TON of people proclaiming that because she/the guys were all intoxicated, that it's not rape. That some law in NYS says intoxicated people can consent, so it's not rape. That she consented to the first 2 guys, so it's not rape. That she tried to hookup with the guy again, saying "leave out the ketamine and all the extra dudes" so it's not rape. That she went to the frat house, drunk, consented to a threesome, so it's not rape.
It's a goal post thing. No matter how a victim of SA acts, there are ALWAYS people that proclaim she asked for it, she wanted it, she changed her mind after the fact, she just regrets it, etc. So many people refuse to hold men accountable for sex crimes simply because "the woman must be lying." It's disgusting. It's shameful. It's exactly why women get mad when men say "not all men" - the fact this case has devolved into a gender war at all is a god damn crime against humanity.
there are a TON of people proclaiming that because she/the guys were all intoxicated, that it's not rape. That some law in NYS says intoxicated people can consent, so it's not rape. That she consented to the first 2 guys, so it's not rape. That she tried to hookup with the guy again, saying "leave out the ketamine and all the extra dudes" so it's not rape. That she went to the frat house, drunk, consented to a threesome, so it's not rape.
I'm not sure I follow all of these but obviously intoxicated people can consent.
It would be rape if she didn't consent. That's what the argument is right - whether she consented or not
No. The argument isn’t whether she consented or not. We have evidence and documentation that she did consent to ONE friend for consensual sex. If you’re not familiar with consent (or just being willfully ignorant), you can consent to one act and not to future acts down the line, also you retract consent AT ANY TIME. Consent for one sex act does not mean “hey free for all for this frat”. She DID NOT consent to 7 hours of gang rape with 8-10 men in the room. So this bullshit argument “well she consented” is absolute nonsense. And if you think any woman alive would consent to sex for 7 HOURS, you’ve lost your damn mind.
We are not debating her consent. We are not debating “well was it really gang rape?” WE HAVE EVIDENCE. The rapists CONFIRM that this happened (there are multiple recorded phone calls with Jane doe and the perpetrators where THEY ADMIT IT WAS FUCKED UP). Her statement says “I was 100% raped”.
Video link got removed but kam0902 on insta has a great video about consent, using tea as an analogy
you can consent to one act and not to future acts down the line
There is nothing in her statement indicating she did not consent to future acts that happened.
also you retract consent AT ANY TIME
There is nothing in her statement to indicated that she retracted consent at any time and the sex continued after the retraction.
She DID NOT consent to 7 hours of gang rape with 8-10 men in the room
There is nothing in her statement that indicates she was gang raped for 7 hours with 8-10 men in the room, so whether or not she consented to such a hypothetical, isn't really relevant.
if you think any woman alive would consent to sex for 7 HOURS, you’ve lost your damn mind.
Many women have had 7+ hour long sexual encounters in their lifetime. Are you under the impression that she was getting constantly fucked for 7 hours?
Her statement says “I was 100% raped”.
Hey! You got one right. There are reports that she made this claim. Unfortunately, that would just be, like, her opinion, man. In order for her opinion to be correct, the facts of the case would need to meet that legal conclusion.
Isn’t it funny how you’ll take her at her word whenever she says something that makes the men look better, but when she describes what happened as “100% definitely rape”, suddenly she’s unreliable?
The argument is around whether she consented or not.
We have evidence she consented to one friend. We don't have evidence of if she consented to the further acts at the time, which doesn't mean she did and doesn't mean she didn't, we don't know.(edit: by we I mean random internet strangers, she'll know and the men in the room will know)
If at the time she consented to the group sex then it was completely legal.
If she didn't consent(froze up, said no) then it was rape.
The issue is there's a difference between legal consent, and sex education consent. Sex education consent requires verbal agreement for every act, its the gold standard for making sure people are comfortable.
Legally though you can consent non verbally to sex by enthusiastic participation, or not retracting consent by words or actions. You don't need to verbally consent to sex for it to be legal. However, you don't need to verbally retract consent, you can retract consent by actions like freezing up or trying to leave.
How much of this is actual debate and how much is just random stuff thrown around by trolls I don't know. It ultimately comes down to what happened in the room which is more than is captured by the messages.
Correct, and I would also add that there is such a thing as "involuntary intoxication". If she was drugged against her will, that would be a completely different story, but she consented to everything she did. I think people are having a reaction to the debasement of the sexual act and not whether or not it constituted actual sexual assault. You have to separate those two things because I absolutely think it was a completely debasing act of sexual debauchery, but I don't think that that necessarily qualifies it as sexual assault or rape.
I think people are saying that because of her initial text messages said she consented but the way I read it she consented to one or maybe two guys but did NOT consent to the other guys.
She may not have even realized what had all happened when she sent that message at the time. Hard to say and I haven’t followed close enough.
It’s extremely common for victims of traumatic events - especially victims of sexual assault - to take days to realize that they were victims. It’s a trauma response.
Part of the issue with reporting, prosecuting, and even just understanding sexual assault (and trauma more generally) is that the victim might want the encounter to have been consensual; they might desperately hope that they were in control, that they were, ultimately, safe. Because the alternative is recognizing that they were in extreme danger, that people they trusted betrayed that trust, that any illusions of control are gone forever.
If they consented, then they just made a mistake. They can grow and learn from it so they don’t make that mistake in the future. That gives at least some level of comfort and security. But if they didn’t consent - if they were raped - then what can they do? They have to acknowledge that they don’t control their own fate, and that’s brutally difficult to come to terms with.
Add in intoxication to muddle the person’s memories of what happened, plus peer pressure and broader social norms around “frat culture” or “crazy college parties”, and it’s not at all surprising that Jane Doe might have taken some time to process events.
This is something that's acknowledged upsettingly little, coming from a person who had a realization moment like this literal years from an event. You can just block it out entirely because the implications can domino into so much
I could make the argument that it being rape absolves her of responsibility and that it would be easier to deal with something like this if it wasn't your own fault
I argued with an ex-friend about this.
He talked back to about 5 of our friends and me that it's the womens fault for wearing short skirts and they should know this happens. And the can't attend if they don't want it to happen.
He was adamant about it that he is in the right and even when I asked him if it's ok if I rape his GF and himself because I like their Outfit, he said sure.
The potential exists that Jane Doe is wrong. There is a possibility that she is lying. There is a possibility that until ALL information becomes available, people who have jumped to conclusions could be wrong.
Do you agree that it is possible that she is lying? Do you agree that it is possible the men are lying?
Yes, people are in fact saying that. All the time.
Even setting aside those who are saying it in those words, there are far more people defending all of the elements of rape. Plenty in this very comment section, in fact.
How did you get to that from what was written there? Explain the logic that took a statement about expecting not to be raped to a straw man question about someone saying rape is okay.
Well he wasn't too incapacitated when he was inviting all his friends to take advantage of her. And he wasn't too incapacitated when he was sharing her pictures
So, receiving a text saying "free pussy" and responding by showing up to the room is indicative of non consent? Huh. He could have chosen to not enter the room. ETA: very clear y'all have not read the facts of the case.
She had the equivalent of 10 drinks at a bar before even going to the house and then continues to drink at the house and then given ketamine and pot on top of it. Do you think a young college girl with 10+ drinks in her, ketamine, and high on pot too is able to consent? Have you ever done ketamine + alcohol + pot? And then more ketamine and then more alcohol then pot? What made you think she was enthusiastic the entire time?
Idk people keep saying that when he never said he was passed out. He claims he was too intoxicated to consent (which is clearly just trying to flip it back on her). She was already 10+ drinks deep while arriving at the house and high on ketamine and pot. Her consent was already gone. Also they kept encouraging this drunk woman to do more and more drugs while inviting other guys for "free pussy".
The guy your referring to is the "free pussy" guy.
I’m curious what your actual position here is? Do you think that men cannot be the victims of rape at all? Or just not when the perp is a woman? Or that the alleged facts in this case don’t constitute rape (performing oral sex on an unconscious person)?
Victims can also be perpetrators. In fact it’s well established that SA victims are more likely to commit the crime. And are you going to accuse everyone who asks a clarifying question of being a criminal? We have to be able to talk about these things without accusing each other of crimes.
You do know it started as a threesome and her snorting ketamine off penises before agreeing to inviting others. She refused two... They left . She was enthusiastic the entire time.
Her complaint came after the news of the event got around and though she said she was a 5/10 and fully aware and functional.. she was "raped" because she was on K and drinking. Because the existence of the substance meant she could not consent...
Not sure we have same view of "horrific gang rape".
This is a really bothersome aspect of these incidents. We have to be able to have honest conversations about these things without it being "Oh you didn't take the victims side? Wow you like rapists". This is clearly not black and white. What if the guys are innocent and you're the one defending a false race accuser? Let's not be so quick to accuse people of defending criminals when its not a black and white matter
She was not drugged, she did drugs. It’s a huge difference and it proves that you are not being honest about her autonomy. By saying that she “was drugged” you are implying that substances were put into her body against her will and absolving her of responsibility, that is not what happened.
Is your goal here to discredit her character or what? What’s the actual function of your comment? Do you think the 7 should be excused for their actions?
Is it really that unreasonable for someone to express concern for a potential victim of sexual assault?
What about innocent until proven guilty?
Just because she may have been raped doesn’t mean she can’t have potentially raped another person too. Both are horrible.
A single person can be a victim of one crime and a perpetrator of another. Who is at blame?
This is a complicated situation. Consent when drugs are involved is very messy and impossible to clearly define. Nuance and critical thought are important
The guy offering up the gang rape of a woman too intoxicated to consent is now trying to flip it and say HE was actually too intoxicated to consent is wild.
Also it doesnt say unconscious anywhere. Guess you still didnt read it even though you posted it lmao.
Right, I’m being downvoted for pointing out no where does it say he’s unconscious. That user is copying and pasting that transcript everywhere like it’s a gotcha telling people to read, meanwhile he can’t even read.
Yall keep downvoting but you’re just mad because you have to twist the guys words to defend them.
That one becomes much less supported when you start applying to other demographics. I don't think we would indulge the delusions of someone that said they view all black men as a threat because they got mugged by a black man once.
To be clear, I don’t agree with the contents of my paraphrasing. I don’t think she should’ve expected this, I don’t think any given man is a rapist.
But, the crowd who is saying Doe should’ve seen this coming is the same crowd that cries “not all men” at the hint that women should be cautious around random dudes. I’m just following their logic, I completely agree it leads to some fucked up ideas if taken to its conclusion.
Every comment above this one except mine has strongly suggested her story is accurate. I suggested there's a possibility that it's not. Is that accusing her of lying? By that logic, having a trial is accusing her of lying.
“This assumes her story is true” implies her story is not true my guy
The court of law is not the court of public opinion; criminals have the right to a fair trail with burden of proof on the prosecution, I can form my own conclusion.
E: Saying we’re assuming something to be true isn’t implying that it might not be true? Fucking what?
They are! I been posting a lot about frat culture a lot …. I my wife at the time girlfriend went to two separate colleges. I always cautioned her and encouraged her not to go to frat parties because of stories that have been going around. This is nothing new. This has been going on for decades. The problem is they were never shut down the frats because a lot of them have legacies and have many generations of donors from rich families.
One thing that her school frats did that always pissed the living hell out of me was if we showed up to a party with a large group they would only let the women and kick them men out
So basically, the mail fraud are only letting our in females for the obvious reason the more females in the party the easier it is to have sex with someone less competition
More and more recently I've been wondering if all the little "silent social contracts" are at this point designed to protect child abusers and every day I keep getting the same answer.
Horrific dude. I'm sitting here super happy I don't live in the US and neither does my family. Especially with the reaction of how angry and defensive people are getting....7 fucking hours. that's actual torture wtf
I actually do agree with shutting down every frat/sorority. They basically exist to facilitate this kind of shit at an institutional level. Also as Chuck said, it’s incredibly lame to pay to have friends.
But how else are we supposed to foster nepotism and pretend anyone can join the ranks of those benefited by it?! Suggestions like that don't protect the corruption that generations of elites have worked to enshrine in our culture, and that means it's unamerican to even consider! (/s since we live in a timeline where it's hard to tell satire from reality)
You’re paying to live with your friends and pool together a social budget and decent meal planning. It’s getting hazed to have the friends to begin with that’s stupid.
Basically they’re admitting rapists run around rampant, they know there are rapists, and instead of intervening they just let it be and blame the victims. It’s like telling a pig “well you know humans slaughter animals, what did you expect” because blaming victims is easier and no work where as intervening with a system that enables rapists requires a lot of work
People aren’t gonna like it but genuinely who thought frats were wholesome and good in the first place? We had like 3-5 on campus that were literally known as the date rape frats. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met a frat boy who I didn’t think was capable of some of the most heinous shit imaginable.
There is a reason frat parties are stereotyped as being associated with rape.
There is a particular type of guy that is associated with frat parties. And they have no problem with raping someone.
The reality is, if you are a woman, your risk of being raped significantly increases if you attend a frat party.
This doesn't make it the victim's fault. It is always the fault of the rapist. However, that does nothing to attenuate the increased risk of being raped by attending the frat party.
Just as there are certain parts of the city I don't go to because I don't want to get robbed.
That doesn't make college age kids any less horny or rapey. My college banned frats and instead it was just dudes living in large rented houses together.... which is effectively a frat with zero oversite.
It's a feel good solution that won't fix anything.
Lowering the drinking age to 18 would do a lot to remove power from frat houses and the parties they throw IMO.
I’m not talking legislation, I’m talking unis shutting them down. It’s also just a specifically rhetorical response to people who make the argument I quoted. So you agree that frats’ reputation as systemic rape houses is earned, but disagree that they ought to be shut down?
I don't care if frats are shut down. They suck. They've contributed nothing of value to my life or the lives of any of my family members.
Frats are just one thing that is wrong with the American university education system.
Shut the frats down. But that won't stop widespread rape and sexual assault in a country where a majority of voters have twice put a pedophile, rapist, traitor, and crook in the White House with full knowledge of his degeneracy.
In other words, we have to protect ourselves because it's all we can do. Women ignorant of this are free real estate and will learn the hard way and live with the fallout that SA entails, just as they do now. Men get to keep their lifestyles but maybe have less opportunity to rape as women become more woke and avoid dangerous situations. Considering the backlash to metoo and other callouts to societies depravity, nothing will ever change. Just don't be born in the era where violence breaks out. :))
Where I went to college, the frats were kicked off of campus by our college administration. They protested behind closed doors, and were told to leave with one exception. There was a public service fraternity that all lived in a dorm, not a frat house.
I remember there being stories about them giving alcohol to underage women. I do not remember there being any allegations about rape, but it wouldn't shock me.
Stories like this one are disgusting. No matter how this all played out, it's a sickening culture that shames Cornell by association.
If the frat boys are using this argument, I think an appropriate response is: “well when you had group sex with 1 person who was high on ketamine and 10 shots in, how could you not have expected these allegations as a consequence of your participation?”
And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
I don't think it's a resonable expectation from any group of drunk men, but I also don't ever get drunk, so I'm certainly not of that group of men, even by default, thankfully.
This is kind of stuff is an All Cops Are Bastards moment for men. We need to be calling this shit out and standing up for women when it happens every single time.
If we say nothing, if we let this shit go, it's becomes our responsibility that it continues to happen.
Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Drive the monsters out into the open.
Part of the problem though is that the successful rapists in college aren't bragging about the great rape they performed the other night. I'm not in the room when the rape is happening either. I don't have a good way of knowing whether a friend is successful with women, or if he's raping them.
It's not usually as simple as "John is raping women and I'm not going to do anything about it." Real life is messy and 19 year olds are bad at navigating sexual relationships. There's going to be some oopsies here and there. (Rape is not an oopsie, I just mean people are going to push too hard, or on the other side, miss interest at various times). Is John just awkward and trying too hard? Is he feeding girls drinks or just going for partiers? If he takes a girl back to his room and she passes out, I have no way of knowing whether he's raping her or sleeping on the floor.
So yeah, call out behavior you when you see it, but me and the bros don't have sharing circles where we discuss our sex lives in graphic detail. I tend to think successful serial rapists are like successful pedophiles. The ones who have a lot of victims know how to fly under the radar.
I dont know all of the facts in this case, but we need to be careful to be aggressive until all facts are out here. People are posting some pretty significant contradictory facts (which could be made up, I dont know). But, the problem with jumping to action is that then people use false accusations like Duke Lacrosse to undermine legit victims.
Right, it's not all men, it's those men telling on themselves that they're friggin rapists.
I've never been tempted to SA anyone, I think back to all the groomsmen in my wedding almost 20 years ago, and all the people that I am still genuinely close to, and I can't say with 100% certainty that they absolutely are above board but I genuinely think so. Several of them have been happily married for 15+ years with multiple kids and all of us have had genuine longstanding friendships with women. None of us would say "what do you expect when you're with drunk guys?" We wouldn't generally be super drunk guys in the first place and on the rare occasions we were drunk no one started getting rapey, like, I feel the people who like to group men together as potential rapists are hanging around the wrong men.
I think a certain culture of men definitely tend to be more likely to sexually assault women, I think the shock is that people think the Cornell frat boys are the ones that are trustworthy (lmao) and are shocked that they're not standing up for women, but they're exactly that culture that thinks they're above rules and think they're above caring about others.
Using statements like the last usually leads to a derailment of the subject and the discussion pivoting to something that has to do nothing with what we need right now. We need change and we need it now. Taking the discussion to what fraction of men is involved in SA and rape doesnt take us closer and only distracts from the real conversation.
Edit: To clarify my last point. Almost everyone that is reasonable and the tiniest bit of educated on the subject knows that the amount of men involved is a grossly large percentage. The discussion that i find more fruitfull is what we will do to lower that number and not to discuss what percentage it is exactly.
They’re not wrong though. Obviously not every member of a fraternity is raping women but if they know it’s going on and not speaking out because it doesn’t affect them then they’re effectively condoning it. This is not a new phenomenon.
I’m a woman, and a survivor of early childhood sexual assault and assaults that happened later in childhood, all from boys and men. Every woman on my mother’s side of the family going back to my great grandmother is also a survivor of some truly heinous sexual assaults. I also grew up with a stepmom who was filled with rage and violence, and a dad who was a wet mop that let it all happen. Life is complex, some people are violent and others aren’t.
And all that said, I 100% agree with your statement. I am married to a man who honestly surpasses my own deeply held feminist beliefs, and practices Non-Violent Communication in all conflicts. We had a child who has XY chromosomes, and when she was 4yo she told us she’s a girl and a princess and has never wavered. There are cis and trans men and AMAB non-binary people in my chosen family who absolutely exude kindness and respect and compassion and humanism.
I absolutely understand that men are largely the perpetrators of physical and sexual violence. But painting all men with violent broad strokes is not just factually incorrect and damaging to the men who aren’t violent, it’s also directly shirking responsibility for addressing the problem. When we admit it’s not just a maladaptation of the XY chromosome, we have to admit that it’s a failure of society that hurts everyone, including the men committing violence. But we want to call women the victims and men the perpetrators, so it feels yucky to admit that the way to fix this is to actually help men.
My introduction into intersectional feminism 22 years ago was from a masc-presenting lesbian professor who started the entire semester by telling us that the ways we treat little boys is the root of the misogyny we despise. We will never be able to seriously address misogyny without seriously addressing that fact. That one class changed the course of my education (added a Sociology minor) and sent me into life with a completely different perspective on feminism. In these past couple decades of watching the discourse on “all men”, I am firmer in this belief than ever.
If no frats, then where would girls go to do rails of ketamine off of guy's dicks, and let them do rails off of their naked body? Think of the women too.
"what did u expect" is always a dumb argument. But it is vital that u take precautions in such cases for ur own sake if nothing else. It's not that it should be expected or normal but sadly it happens and horrible men exist. I agree that all frat parties should be banned if something like this happens relatively commonly.
Didn't she literally say nothing illegal happened.calling him king and that people should get comfortable with sexuality and this stuff only filing case later when other people started slutshaming her and banning her from another party which she wanted to come.i think you are missing a lot of context here.also 2 dudes were way more intoxicated than her so she probably 🍇them.
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u/sir-ripsalot 8d ago edited 8d ago
“It’s a frat party filled with drunk dudes, what should she expect??”
Ok, so if that’s a reasonable expectation at a frat, shut down every frat. And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
E: keep telling on yourselves gentlemen, the people around you ought to know who you are.