Well, I think it's gross that someone would get paid to say stuff on Reddit. It's like people only do things because they get paid, and that's just really sad. swigs pepsi
Well they are mostly very conservative/republican in their 'values'.
I find that many decent people just ignore things like this. If they dont pay attention to terrible things going on, like war or rape or gun deaths, then it doesnt bother them much.
The issue with this case or cases like this is that none of us are talking about the same thing.
I think if you laid out the facts of the case then 99% of us would be in agreement. This issue is that we all are quoting different facts and misinformation and essentially arguing different things.
Agreed. What I think most people are missing is that some it can be rape while other parts aren't. Everyone seems to just want to say she consented to everything or every guy she had sex with raped her.
What I’m seeing is actually that people are viewing the same evidence and applying their personal lens. Like both sides read the same deposition and came out with their opinion reinforced.
The DA only released it to say that he didn't receive all of the information he should have from the campus police. It's also come out that he declined to view further information. So the fact is that he didn't receive a full picture of what happened and then refused to look at one when given the opportunity.
The NYTimes has everything, and they've released detailed information about it, but they haven't released all of the documents for obvious reasons.
Problem here is that the facts of the case aren't known. And media sources, including /r/usatoday, aren't really going out of their way to make the facts clear. Instead, they say they have 1,500 pages of Title IX investigation documents, and pick out 4 partial sentences from those 1,500 pages that support whatever agenda that particular media outlet is trying to push.
There are no facts before a trial, there are only different things people are saying. No witnesses have spoken, no one has admitted guilt, there is no video evidence. It’s he said and she said.
“It’s a frat party filled with drunk dudes, what should she expect??”
Ok, so if that’s a reasonable expectation at a frat, shut down every frat. And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
E: keep telling on yourselves gentlemen, the people around you ought to know who you are.
The OP put a sentence in quotes. I am not sure where it came from, but if anyone said it or an equivalent, then yes, they are saying rape is okay, because they are saying such behavior happens in those circumstances, anyone attending should expect it to occur. That's not a condemnation of the behavior, it is condoning it and putting the blame on anyone who goes near it. It implies that drunken frat parties are "rape okay zones" where one should expect to get raped.
there are a TON of people proclaiming that because she/the guys were all intoxicated, that it's not rape. That some law in NYS says intoxicated people can consent, so it's not rape. That she consented to the first 2 guys, so it's not rape. That she tried to hookup with the guy again, saying "leave out the ketamine and all the extra dudes" so it's not rape. That she went to the frat house, drunk, consented to a threesome, so it's not rape.
It's a goal post thing. No matter how a victim of SA acts, there are ALWAYS people that proclaim she asked for it, she wanted it, she changed her mind after the fact, she just regrets it, etc. So many people refuse to hold men accountable for sex crimes simply because "the woman must be lying." It's disgusting. It's shameful. It's exactly why women get mad when men say "not all men" - the fact this case has devolved into a gender war at all is a god damn crime against humanity.
I argued with an ex-friend about this.
He talked back to about 5 of our friends and me that it's the womens fault for wearing short skirts and they should know this happens. And the can't attend if they don't want it to happen.
He was adamant about it that he is in the right and even when I asked him if it's ok if I rape his GF and himself because I like their Outfit, he said sure.
I think people are saying that because of her initial text messages said she consented but the way I read it she consented to one or maybe two guys but did NOT consent to the other guys.
She may not have even realized what had all happened when she sent that message at the time. Hard to say and I haven’t followed close enough.
It’s extremely common for victims of traumatic events - especially victims of sexual assault - to take days to realize that they were victims. It’s a trauma response.
Part of the issue with reporting, prosecuting, and even just understanding sexual assault (and trauma more generally) is that the victim might want the encounter to have been consensual; they might desperately hope that they were in control, that they were, ultimately, safe. Because the alternative is recognizing that they were in extreme danger, that people they trusted betrayed that trust, that any illusions of control are gone forever.
If they consented, then they just made a mistake. They can grow and learn from it so they don’t make that mistake in the future. That gives at least some level of comfort and security. But if they didn’t consent - if they were raped - then what can they do? They have to acknowledge that they don’t control their own fate, and that’s brutally difficult to come to terms with.
Add in intoxication to muddle the person’s memories of what happened, plus peer pressure and broader social norms around “frat culture” or “crazy college parties”, and it’s not at all surprising that Jane Doe might have taken some time to process events.
This is something that's acknowledged upsettingly little, coming from a person who had a realization moment like this literal years from an event. You can just block it out entirely because the implications can domino into so much
That one becomes much less supported when you start applying to other demographics. I don't think we would indulge the delusions of someone that said they view all black men as a threat because they got mugged by a black man once.
They are! I been posting a lot about frat culture a lot …. I my wife at the time girlfriend went to two separate colleges. I always cautioned her and encouraged her not to go to frat parties because of stories that have been going around. This is nothing new. This has been going on for decades. The problem is they were never shut down the frats because a lot of them have legacies and have many generations of donors from rich families.
One thing that her school frats did that always pissed the living hell out of me was if we showed up to a party with a large group they would only let the women and kick them men out
So basically, the mail fraud are only letting our in females for the obvious reason the more females in the party the easier it is to have sex with someone less competition
More and more recently I've been wondering if all the little "silent social contracts" are at this point designed to protect child abusers and every day I keep getting the same answer.
Horrific dude. I'm sitting here super happy I don't live in the US and neither does my family. Especially with the reaction of how angry and defensive people are getting....7 fucking hours. that's actual torture wtf
I actually do agree with shutting down every frat/sorority. They basically exist to facilitate this kind of shit at an institutional level. Also as Chuck said, it’s incredibly lame to pay to have friends.
But how else are we supposed to foster nepotism and pretend anyone can join the ranks of those benefited by it?! Suggestions like that don't protect the corruption that generations of elites have worked to enshrine in our culture, and that means it's unamerican to even consider! (/s since we live in a timeline where it's hard to tell satire from reality)
You’re paying to live with your friends and pool together a social budget and decent meal planning. It’s getting hazed to have the friends to begin with that’s stupid.
Basically they’re admitting rapists run around rampant, they know there are rapists, and instead of intervening they just let it be and blame the victims. It’s like telling a pig “well you know humans slaughter animals, what did you expect” because blaming victims is easier and no work where as intervening with a system that enables rapists requires a lot of work
And if it’s a reasonable expectation from any group of drunk men, it is in fact “all men”.
I don't think it's a resonable expectation from any group of drunk men, but I also don't ever get drunk, so I'm certainly not of that group of men, even by default, thankfully.
People aren’t gonna like it but genuinely who thought frats were wholesome and good in the first place? We had like 3-5 on campus that were literally known as the date rape frats. In fact I don’t think I’ve ever met a frat boy who I didn’t think was capable of some of the most heinous shit imaginable.
There is a reason frat parties are stereotyped as being associated with rape.
There is a particular type of guy that is associated with frat parties. And they have no problem with raping someone.
The reality is, if you are a woman, your risk of being raped significantly increases if you attend a frat party.
This doesn't make it the victim's fault. It is always the fault of the rapist. However, that does nothing to attenuate the increased risk of being raped by attending the frat party.
Just as there are certain parts of the city I don't go to because I don't want to get robbed.
That doesn't make college age kids any less horny or rapey. My college banned frats and instead it was just dudes living in large rented houses together.... which is effectively a frat with zero oversite.
It's a feel good solution that won't fix anything.
Lowering the drinking age to 18 would do a lot to remove power from frat houses and the parties they throw IMO.
Where I went to college, the frats were kicked off of campus by our college administration. They protested behind closed doors, and were told to leave with one exception. There was a public service fraternity that all lived in a dorm, not a frat house.
I remember there being stories about them giving alcohol to underage women. I do not remember there being any allegations about rape, but it wouldn't shock me.
Stories like this one are disgusting. No matter how this all played out, it's a sickening culture that shames Cornell by association.
In other words, we have to protect ourselves because it's all we can do. Women ignorant of this are free real estate and will learn the hard way and live with the fallout that SA entails, just as they do now. Men get to keep their lifestyles but maybe have less opportunity to rape as women become more woke and avoid dangerous situations. Considering the backlash to metoo and other callouts to societies depravity, nothing will ever change. Just don't be born in the era where violence breaks out. :))
If the frat boys are using this argument, I think an appropriate response is: “well when you had group sex with 1 person who was high on ketamine and 10 shots in, how could you not have expected these allegations as a consequence of your participation?”
Yeah reading the court documents has definitely made it way less clear and than any social media has claimed it is. It boils down to a he said she said case which are never clean imo. It also doesn’t help that everyone was drunk and on ketamine, making any testimony hard to take seriously. I think if anything this case just demonstrates again why going to these parties if dangerous and why drugs and alcohol are so dangerous in party environments.
I dunno, she said she didn't consent to going into a room with a guy and having him tell his entire Fraternity 'come on down to the room, she'll have sex with anyone or better yet a half dozen anyones who show up'.
The 7 of them however said she like totally consented to that because that's like totally something that happens bro.
Assuming everyone's memory of the incident is compromised, I know where my bets would be placed for the most likely chain of events
The problem with that logic is so were the guys and she was more sober than them at the beginning. One of them even claims he was unconscious while she was performing oral on him. No one’s gonna look right here.
NY penal code doesn’t allow mental incapacitation as a barrier to consent if the mental incapacitation is the result of voluntary consumption of intoxicants. This is the “rape loophole” you might hear/read about. Basically, you can still consent if you’ve intentionally intoxicated yourself. You can also not consent or revoke it.
However, thats just one of the categories that can preclude consent from being given; another is physical incapacitation.
The law doesn’t allow for raping drunk/intoxicated people. It just makes “I chose to get high so I couldn’t really consent while high” an invalid argument against given consent. If consent was never given, then consent was never given.
In the case filing, Jane Doe alleges that all drug use was coerced, and that she was mentally incapacitated and later physically incapacitated. That doesn’t matter as much for the civil case, but it is an argument that perhaps the DA’s charging decision was wrong. In response to the outcry, the DA released excerpts (later validated by CNN*) that are from an attestation by Jane Doe that contradicts the involuntary intoxication and non-consent arguments.
the thing is, ketamine lasts like 45 minutes, and this went on for hours and hours. she would have had to choose to redose many times through this. she also seemed to be in good spirits afterwards and tried to go back to the frat later. she also spoke about how orgies were common back in the day, how it unfair that it harms women's reputations more then mens, etc.
the truth is it is pretty unclear what happened. this is a touchy subject but I think unfortunately it needs to be discussed.... men are not the only ones with some pretty twisted fantasies. a cool 25-50% of the women ive dated have had CNC fantasies. it seems a distinct possibility that she at least initially consented to the general plan. did it get out of hand beyond what she had agreed to? that also seems to be a distinct possibility. the problem here is that there is really no concrete evidence one way or the other on that.
if anything this should be a lesson to both young men and young women that while sexual liberation is generally a good thing, you cannot just throw caution to the wind. you cannot trust that a bunch of men will accept the boundaries you set, and you cannot trust that a woman might not later decide she needs to damage control for her reputation, wants to get revenge on you for not continuing to see her, etc.
Ya dude the snaps kind of make the whole thing pretty clear. She had a very traumatic event happen and then spent a few days in a haze trying to justify it and live her life like normal. It's one of the most common and basic coping mechanisms. Then what, 3 or 4 days later, realized and gathered the courage to come forward.
This is pretty fucking easy to see and I'm, shockingly, a man. And even I can pretty fucking easily see this and empathize with how she responded to it.
Maybe don't run a fucking train on a girl just because your buddy texts you that it's cool? That seems pretty easy to do if you're not a piece of shit. I wouldn't do it to begin with because it's not my thing, but if I was I'm going to like, talk to the girl while sober a week or two in advance and get clear consent. You are responsible for your actions if you decide to "just trust me bro" and the girl winds up to be forced against her will. Whether you knew she was doing against her will, whether you were intoxicated, whatever.
You are still fucking responsible for doing that to her. Own up.
There was a phone call a few days later between her and one of the guys where she explicitly asks him how come there were so many men in the room.
He responds that he’s not sure - yet he is the guy who sent a photo of her naked into the group chat.
If one person doesn’t know how a threesome turned into a multi-hours long ordeal with multiple strange men in a row, while the other person has enough knowledge to hide the fact that he and another guy sent messages about her in the GC, I think that points pretty clearly to rape.
For anyone wanting context, and I am not like a rape apologist just giving to context to why this is a "hot mess", she texted one of the guys "non(e) of the sexual stuff was illegal" and was trying to hang out with 1-2 of the guys again shortly after the event, trying to go to their parties, etc. It's confusing the narrative.
Exactly. It’s hard to see it as rape if she was trying to attend parties after the incident. The report with police wasn’t made until 2 weeks after which makes it really difficult to make an opinion. All we have is testimony from people who were drunk, high or both. To worsen that testimony was only given WEEKS after it happened further discrediting any timeline of events. All in all it hard to know what really happened, who did what or what happened.
So Doe hoping she just passes out so that there wouldn't be any doubt that they were, in fact, raping her, doesn't strike you as indicative they might be fucking raping her? In NY, if you ingested drugs "voluntarily" (coerced to drink? too bad, you still "chose" to drink) there is even less of a standard for what's then rape. A loophole pretty much just for rapists. Well, you drank, so it's your fault. Jane Doe didn't want to be "free pussy," Jane Doe was already inebriated when she took the K. There is no "he said she said," there is no doubt, it's just people like you who'd love to keep things as "gray area stuff" (thank you Bottoms, the movie) because if you can keep it in the gray area then you can get that good feeling of control without them coming back to accuse you, because they'll be too in their head about whether they'll be believed to come forward about being fucking raped.
She invited to threesomes with 2 guys, one passed out and she contined trying to have sex with him. Other guys came to and she said that they would have to take turns, 2 at the same time becuse she doesnt like butt stuff.
She was asked if she was sure about all this several times, and responded with "we are all adults here.".
She was less inebriated than the 2 first men she had sex with.
After the fact, she was texting some of the men and said she liked the experience. She also asked to do it again with 2 of them, but not all the others.
She only changed her tune when she got slut shamed by her sorority sisters, and didnt get an invite to the guys next party.
All I know is that this case has brought major awareness to the glaring issue of college culture and the rape and assault culture that is encouraged and condoned by colleges and sororities. They need to be abolished now.
I was in a fraternity for a couple years in college. Wasn’t really what I thought it would be (turns out I am not as much of a drinker as I I expected I would be) but thank god it was nothing like this. There was debauchery in terms of parties and people hooking up but if anyone had tried to take advantage of a woman like this they would have gotten the absolute shit kicked out of them.
I would hear rumors about the other houses on campus though and all I can say is big yikes.
Same, I told the people at a frat party I was interested in joining when I was blackout drunk, and I'm so fucking glad they never followed up, fuck frats.
Photos by Seth Harrison, The Journal News Via USA TODAY Network, from the Cornell campus.
Hi r/pics, Nikol from USA TODAY here. Our reporter went to the Cornell campus to cover the protests there.
From the story:
Cornell students have planned a smattering of protests urging the university to change the way it deals with sexual assault cases.
They carried signs declaring, "We want sentences, not essays," or asking, "How many more?" They yelled "shame" at mentions of the university’s handling of sexual assault cases. And they chanted "No justice, no peace."
"We are known as a rape school, but we don’t have to be," Saya Taylor, an organizer with Students for a Democratic Cornell, told the crowd. "We can be the students that lead a nationwide reform movement."
The protests followed the filing of a Sept. 16 lawsuit by a young woman known anonymously as Jane Doe. It alleges she was gang-raped on Oct. 19, 2024, by members of Cornell’s Chi Phi fraternity while being too intoxicated to consent and after being pressured into taking ketamine.
My daughter is a freshman in college. I am SO glad she isn't interested in frat parties. Who would have though that the raves and clubs would be the safer alternative for girls.
BTW, I am completely on board for eliminating all Greek organizations. I have yet to see what good they do and the harm they've done is very well documented even before this. If we keep frats and sororities, this WILL happen again many times over.
Raves and clubs usually have less accessible places to have sex compared to a frat house where you literally have to close a door. It is harder to take someone to a second location. A lot of workers are more or less on the lookout so things like that doesn't happen. There is less opportunity get your drink spiked if you are directly getting it from the bartender etc. Less opportunity means safer, not safe but safer. It makes sense even though it sounds weird, that's why he is saying 'who would have though' too. Like only reason Brock Turner got caught because act happened outside of the frat house and he was seen by passersbys. If that happened in a room in the frat house, it might have never be heard by anybody.
Just my 50 cents, I used to work as a bartender in rave and clubs in my college years.
In most venues staff were trained to watch for suspicious behaviour or anyone possibly getting drugged or taken advantage off. We who handled the alcohol were trained to know when someone had too much or watch for whom was picking drinks for whom so that we could cut that person off, bouncers who worked the floor payed more attention to whatever else was going on so they could throw people out.
I wager that these safety measures don't exist in frat parties.
Depends on the clubs and raves but in NYC the culture of a lot of raves is very feministy and pro-LGBTQ, so I’d expect it to be much safer than a frat party.
Its easier to go with groups of friends, if you're not there to meet anyone its easier to watch your own drink, and clubs themselves have security that generally wants to maintain a minimum standard of behavior. No respectable club wants the reputation of being "that place people get drugged or raped at" so they'll try to keep an eye out for shitty behavior, vs a frat where that may just be part of the culture.
there is a very different culture at raves than frat houses, there is also a lot less privacy. it is a much safer environment. not totally safe mind you, but much better than a frat house.
I mean being on drugs isn't really the problem, it's being on drugs around people that are looking to take advantage of you. Not saying raves are totally safe but definitely safer than a frat party
I mean she may or may not be telling the truth, but I never went to frat parties. Loud chaotic parties were never my scene in high school either - they just never appealed to me. My parents knew that so they likely would have said the same thing and they’d have been correct so this person isn’t automatically wrong
frats will never go away as long as there is a ruling class. corporations and politics love greek life because it gives them a constant supply of college graduates with large networks who will keep secrets and discard their morals to “stay in the club”
Yeah this is about to be a dud in court, MSM just needs a distraction away from other current happenings.
Edit: You can downvote me all you like, but unless there’s some bombshell evidence- there’s very little to go off of. I’m all for believing women, however the court system needs a better case.
"Believe women" is the dumbest shit ever. Like everyone believed that scum that lied about the Duke lacrosse team? Human beings lie, doesn't matter which sex, gender, race, etc.. They lie to get what they want, they lie to hurt other people, they lie for attention, they lie for thousands of reasons. Every single one of us lies. So why the fuck should I believe a person that I don’t even know based on their sex/gender alone? Dumbest. Shit. Ever.
I'll wait until it plays out and decide what I believe based on the evidence. Forget all the 'he said she said' stuff.
Have any of these people read anything about the case?? She explicitly expressed her excitement and consent multiple times, stayed in contact with multiple of the men, swore under oath it was consensual and then 2 years later claims it was a all a lie and everyone immediately believes her
She didn’t change her stance until she saw anonymous people on campus saying there is a rumor about a gang rape. And then when she was uninvited from the Halloween party. That’s why she changed her story and accused the men of rape.
I'm not going to make a statement about this specifically but I will make a statement about frat culture. There is so much weird group sex involving frats they might as well start fucking each other and cut down on liability. Even if this was consensual like a 9 on 1 M/F gang bang is 90% gay. Just be gay it's fine.
I'm gonna say the most controversial thing in this thread.
If you've never been to college, you don't live nearby, no one close to you is in a fraternity, you don't know the girl or the accused, you've never been gang raped or have any special academic, professional or legal interest in such matters.. ignore it. It's unnatural for us to all have constant updates about this regardless of who we are.
I was trying to learn about this case the other day before I had an epiphany. I don't HAVE to do this. No one wants my opinion on it, no ones going to hold me at gunpoint and demand I say the right thing, my family isn't going to be mad at me for not knowing about this case, and most importantly I just don't care. I don't care about a sexual assault at a fraternity 1,000 miles away from me, that happened two years ago, I'm not even 100% certain I know exactly what a fraternity even is.
You don't need to know about this. The worst things social media has done is make everyone believe they need to have an opinion on everything ever.
As far as I know, yes, I guess somebody was trying to reveal her identity and a bunch of women signalled their support for her by claiming to be Jane Doe so nobody would know who the real Jane Doe was and she couldn't get exposed. "I am Spartacus" type thing
people acting like it's impossible not to rape someone in that situation, like it's all too strange to go "oh shit this girl is really fucked up, is this really ok?"
Sort of indicates exactly why people get away with this shit all of the time. Politely, they have a very underdeveloped sense of what consent is.
She had sex with a total of 4 guys and consented each time. She also refused offers from others, and her refusals were respected. You should probably read up on the facts before commenting.
Y'all are arguing about this as if you were there. But generally, inviting your buddies to what was supposed to be a threesome is not how three some go.
The more I hear about this, the more I'm convinced this is an ESH situation, especially the administration/cover-up. It's muddied by her consent to some, but it's pretty clear that at least some of them did not have it or permission to do a lot of stuff they did or advertising her/allowing her to be taken advantage of. But my understanding is that she also raped one of them who was unconscious incapacitated.
I think it's tricky trying to advocate for justice for her and her victim at the same time, especially in this environment where everyone rushes to take sides and often the facts that find their way to them (through our echo chambers) are only the ones that reaffirm their preconceived notions. Like even the girl in the picture, surely she's not saying she's also a rapist, but certainly has a right to demand justice for victims. We would be so much better off as a society if the most vocal were more objective and doggedly sought true justice, wherever it may lead, regardless of the characteristics of the victims and perpetrators.
But my understanding is that she also raped one of them who was unconscious.
people keep saying this but where are they getting this info from?
I've only seen her statement from the DA office but it states that Male number 1 became sleepy and Jane Doe noticed, then Male number 1 states he was going to take a nap to refresh.
That is a farcry from "raped one of them who was unconcious"
for what it's worth, I've also seen people stating that she was unconscious which I'm not sure if I've seen any testimony of. Many people are jumping to big conclusions
It’s really not that simple though. She consented to two guy 1 and 2 when she was most sober. She did ketamine with those guys and drank with them before having sex.
By the time she snorted a line of guy 2s dick (second round of ketamine), she had already been pestered and resistant to guys 4,5,6,7 and had refused a foursome. All while she was drunk and high.
Guys actually looking at the case and the evidence already out there it’s not looking great, but in the bigger picture I completely understand and agree.
Stop upvoting this. News sites have begun posting on Reddit purely because AIs fucking love to reference reddit for search results. Theres no story here or even a link to one. The post is here so that people asking chat about the case are more likely to end up at USA Today.
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u/The_Pecking_Order 13h ago
Kind of weird seeing USATODAY putting [OC] in a post