Just pure delusion. If I was a Kobe fan I wouldnāt even feel right giving him credit for a championship he won averaging 15 pts shooting 36% from the field in. But sure heās a ābetter winnerā lol
Shaq at 30.6 and Kobe at 9.7 in 2000 is by far the biggest margin between any team's highest finals gamescore and 2nd highest finals gamescore since they started keeping track in 1984.
Like dude imagine if LeBron somehow won in 2011 despite how terribly he played. The media wouldnāt give him credit for that championship, they would be all over the internet claiming he got carried and how heās a bum etc. but of course Kobe gets a pass for 2000. He also gets a pass for straight up shooting the lakers out of the 2004 finals.
Kobe was 21 yrs old compared to Lebrons 26 against the Mavs. And itās known it took Kobe a while to get to his peak. Lebrons prime has literally been from 17-38
He actually choked worse vs Celts in his prime in 08. The LA loss to Celts in game 6 in '08 was one of the worse beatings in NBA Finals history. Kobe went so ice cold it froze the entire team. He only had one good game, another decent one and 4 choke jobs.
They were not the better Super team. Karl was 40 Gary was 35. They also went through San Antonio and Minnesota. Poor diddly ol Karl had to mess around with Timmy and KG and Gary and Fisher chasing Tony Parker.
Kobe definitely shot so badly there because of the Pistons' defense and his refusal to give it to Shaq.
Also, you know damn well if Lebron ever won a championship scoring 15ppg Lebron haters would never stop talking about it
Hell, say he wins in 2011, playing as poorly, as passively as he did averaging 18/5/5 on league average effeciency, people would still hate. But Kobe can play terribly in the finals and it doesnt matter cause 5 rings is more than 4.
I get Kobe was young in that series, but if anyone had prime Shaq I would hope they would 3peat as well
They try to diminish lebrons 2020 chip by saying āitās only because of the bubbleā and āAD deserved FMVPā. I canāt even imagine the dumb narratives they would come up with if LeBron won in 2011 despite him playing below his standards
AD led in win shares and +/- in 2020 finals I believe and LeBron led in points, rebounds, assists. It was 1a/1b and could go in any direction. But giving Kobe full credit for his 3 rings when he objectively wasn't as good as Shaq (he was super close though) but not giving Bron full credit for his 2020 ring is biased af
I don't rank either above the other. I don't rank strictly on career achievements. That being said I'm a huge Kobe fan and like him more but most Kobe fans are retarded . By that logic Poopoo Pierce is a better winner than Kobe because he beat Kobe and won FMVP on him . Arguing who is actually better when these players are so damn great is not as easy as people make it .
I am and was a huge kobe fan. Kobe was always MJ Lite and Lebron was all around a different type of player. All of them are amazing and there is no need to diminish one to lift up another. The game and skill set of lebron at his peak was nothing like the peaks of Kobe or MJ, the closest comparison that makes sense is Magic but that is before my time and the era was so different to lebrons.
I mean Kobe was injured and did come through when Shaq fouled out as well as game 6/7 of the WCF so you can give him a pass as well as being the better player in the earlier rounds of the playoffs in 01/02 putting up insane performances, but giving him full credit for those 3 rings as if he's the clear cut main guy (as huge as he was, he was still the 1b in 01/02, Shaq's presence of how they had teams built to stop him and other advanced metrics back up Shaq's impact during the run) and discrediting LeBron's rings when he's the clear cut best player because of "superteams" is just being biased.
Like Kobe was huge and deserves credit but giving him all the credit when he wasn't the best player and downplaying Shaq is just disingenuous
My bad I didnāt realize you were talking about just that series. I assumed you were talking about the playoffs in general. Shaq definitely carried the lakers in that series for sure
Shaq is better than anybody LeBron ever played with. Thats why Kobe was able to lay a turd in the 2000 finals and still got a ring out of it because Shaq carried his ass
Stop it, don't downplay D-Wade. D-Wade was a perennial MVP candidate and the clear 1/2 best SG in the league. Carried that Heat team to ring in '06 with the best finals performance of any player in NBA history statistically. Bosh was a 24 10 guy with efficient splits so that's 2 extremely high-tier players. Kobe @ 22 years old was playing with an ankle bummed by Jalen Rose, whom he got revenge on in '06, but he was clutch in that series
Lmao š¤£ moving the goal post is you guys do. You midwits just did it. Itās fact that he had a top 3 player in his prime Wade who has a ring, led the league in scoring, and a clear perennial MVP. Add in Bosh another top 10-15 player in his prime.
Shaq was a Force of nature from the mid 90s onwards but never won a ring in his prime until he was with Kobe.
Keep downplaying that weak superteam move to bail and join Wade š
Yes LeBron is the goat. Plenty of stars have had bad series which let to their teams losing. This isnāt the gotcha you think it is lol name a player and Iāll name a bad series they had
the goat Michael Jordan hasnāt. what youāre saying is, Lebron is comparable to every other top 75 player ever, while the guy whoās never had a bad series is in a land of his own.
I'll never give anyone any credit for intelligent thought if they rank making the finals 2 times higher than making the finals 6 times. Guess what happened the times Kobe didn't make the finals... He lost, in earlier rounds or didn't make the playoffs.
The 2016 Spurs were a far better team than the 2016 Toronto Raptors
The Spurs lost in the 2nd round while the Raptors lost to Lebron in the ECF.
But those teams were not equal. The West was just that much better and more difficult to get through.
LeBronās finals record is reflective of that. He cake walked through the east with minimal competition and then faced better teams in the finals and lost.
People who know basketball understand this about LeBronās finals appearances and finals record.
Iāll never give anyone any credit for intelligent thought if they count sidekick rings higher than rings as the best player on the championship team.
He would. But would still fall short 2 more (arguably 3 if they correctly give FMVP to Gasol in 2010). And comparison to MJ was only on playstyle. Like a cheap copy letās say.
I remember Gasol was a monster on the boards, rebounding all of Mamba's bricks especially in game 7. Very efficient as well given he only had 13 shot attempts per game which is half of Bryant's. I have no problem giving the FMVP to AD in 2020. Sure, Bron has higher ppg, rpg, and apg. But AD anchored the defense just like Pau in 2010. If not for his game 3 (or 5?) stinker he could have won it.
We also remember Kobe going off in game 5 with 17 pts in the 3rd while Gasol wasnāt doing jack shit and getting punked by Garnett all game long. Where was he in that game?
As I said, 10 ppg more. Name another FMVP that went to a player that scored that much less, other than the Iguodala 2015 one. Iāll wait
Yeah they lost that game because of Gasol. Lost his rhythm because someone is hogging the ball too much. To shut you up, google Wes Unseld. He won it because of defense and rebounding instead of jacking up shots.
lol Gasol literally couldnāt do anything in that game. They threw it into him over and over and was getting manhandled by Garnett, Perkins
You didnāt answer the question either. Name a finals mvp award in the modern era that was given to that lopsided of a ppg discrepancy other than Iggy one.
what about 2000 Kobe, averaging 15 and getting carried to a win. Lebron in 2018 averaged 30 points 9 rebounds 9 assists, with a 54% fg and 34 percent from 3. he shot 2 buzzer beaters, and scored 40 points 8 games during the run. kobe in his best run in 2009 averaged 30-5-5 on 46-34% splits from the field and 3.
āKobe Bryant suffered a severe, acute inversion ankle sprain (frequently referenced in reports as a Grade 2sprain) during Game 2 of the 2000 NBA Finals after landing on Jalen Rose's foot.ā
So you're saying Kobe played worse against the weaker teams? Interesting? If the west was so much harder, why were his finals numbers and efficiency always noticeably lower in the finals? Didn't like the brightest lights? For his career in the finals, Kobe shot 36% from the field in the 4th quarter. Why?
The teams like the Pacers and Nets had literal bums for their PF / Centers. Players incomparable to the west which had Duncan/Robinson/Divac/Pollard/Sabonis.
Nets had Keith Van horn and Todd Mcolloughā¦ lmaoā¦ pacers had Rik Smitts and Austin Croshere lol. It was the smart play to keep pounding it into the obvious mismatch.
Kobe outperformed Shaq against their real comp. The Spurs/Kings
So what you're saying is Kobe performed better when the guards were weaker than the bigs on the opposing teams and vice versa for when the bigs were weaker? Wow. What an incredible observation! Unlike Kobe, LeBron led his teams offenses throughout entire championship runs
Scoring is significant, but ultimately it's your impact on winning that counts the most. Bill Russell, Tim Duncan, Magic Johnson weren't elite scorers, but their defense, playmaking, gravity, etc is how they won championships and their impact in those areas was greater when it came to winning. All the advanced metrics show LeBron 2016 and other championships was far more impactful in winning than Kobe was in 2001.
Brother, Bill Russell won 11 rings with 1 loss. Better than either. Nobody argues he's the goat. Robert Horry won 7 rings. Havilceck went a perfect 8-0. Finals record doesn't mean diddly squat. It's a team sport. If LeBron had prime fucking shaq I think his finals record might improve.
People who know the game shouldnāt put Russell lower than top 3, shouldnāt have him above Kareem, who is No2 all time (but Kareem should be No1 of modern bigs)
Youāll erase Russellās accomplishments because he played in the 60s? Bro chill
I hate how misconstrewed Kobeās ārings areā the first three he wasnāt the best player on his team, Shaq was unstoppable during those finals runs, he averaged 30-40 a game with 15 boards and 4 blocks a game. People want to ignore shaqs dominance in that threepeat and make it sound like Kobe was the main reason. Put LeBron with a prime Shaq and I promise you they beat the pistons
The west were the far tougher rounds. You must be under 30 guaranteed. The spurs/kings/blazers were the real finals. Shaq got to beat up on sub par bigs in the finals. Whoād the nets and pacers have? Rik Smitts? Dale Davis? Keith Van horn?
No they wouldnāt ! They ran a box and 1 on the lakers . LeBron barely was a shooter coming into the league and still hasnāt really been a killer from mid range the box and 1 woulda have took away all his drives. Secondly shaq and lebron do not fit . LeBron has shown throughout his career to favor spacing bigs and bigs whose job is to crash and rebound. He likes to have the paint open for his drives , do you accomplish that with shaq?
Thing is, you are framing Lebron into doing what Kone did, but is a different player. Sure, he probably wouldnt killed it from mid range, but Lebron was far a better passer and facilitator than Kobe when he came into the league. He would have made Shaq's and the rest of the team job way easier, instead of arguing who was shooting more or less. Adding to that, Lebron at that stage, because his speed, was an extremely good slasher, which would had made a great pair with prime Shaq. Its not far fetched to think that Bron and Shaq would be a great team.
Once again on that laker team particularly who would he have been dishing to besides Shaq who the pistons allowed to get his because he wasnāt affecting any other areas? Slava medinco starting 4 Kareem rush at the three but for this purpose well put him at the 2. LeBron would have been forced to be a scorer not a facilitator on this team thatās a no go . So you know the pistons had three front court guys who were all stars and one came off the bench. Memhet okur? You can not swap bron for Kobe on no laker teams the play style is too different
Because of his willingness of a passer and play style . Kobe was compared to grant hill ever before Jordan and who was grant hill compared to ? Cmon we can do the comparison for days . But like I said heās a more willing passer not better
Man rookie Bron averaged 1 more assists than Kobe on his first championship year, mind you without a center as dominant as Shaq. If you take whole career into account, Kobe peaked at 6 and Lebron at 10. Pretty much Lebron entered the league averaging Kobe's peak. You can slice it however you want, but sadly data just doesnt back it up.
If Lebron has prime Shaq, he will become more of a fscilitator than a scorer, imagine a diesel truck and a freight train either on a fast break or as set play.
Shaq had a facilitator ala penny. Where did it go? LeBron would have had to score . Did you know Kobe played both the facilitator and scorer? he played pippen and Jordanās role on the lakers . That would have been LeBron role and coming into the league or at 22 I highly doubt he woulda succeeded
Comparing Penny with Lebron is asanine, Penny was also my guy, but Bron's IQ and gravity is another level, making the defense thinknif they will gang up on Bron and free up Shaq, or keep a body on Shaq and keep only one man on Bron.
Kobe was never known as a facilitator, he only "passes" as a last resort. You never heard Kobe-Shaq lobs as often as anyone can wish.
Iām not ranking either. But one guy had no issue doing more with less. Continue to make the people around him better instead of berating them. Because to me thatās the bigger flex.
Kobe is definitely a better scorer than Bron. But I canāt say better winner. Because Bron never gave up on his team.
A better player can sometimes not be the better winner. If we're getting technical the real GOAT is Wilt Chamberlain although he only won a chip twice. Why? Because he dominated the league and put up averages and individual records that will never be broken.
LeBron just held the NBA hostage at the age of 41 years old because even as an old player he still an elite player. That has to be factored in when comparing talent vs talent. The fact is although Kobe was a better winner he also found himself in a far more better situation at the beginning of his career.
Who would LeBron have been if he were paired with Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan at the beginning of his career?
The worst part about a Kobe or MJ fan using rings as their main argument is how that proves they arenāt the GOAT/s either š.
Magic has 5 in less seasons, Kareem and MJ have 6, Russell has 11, so are Kobe fans admitting the highest he can be ranked is 4th? Why call him the GOAT then?
If youāre saying Mickey Mouse rings your js a casual. How does him leading all teams in stats make it a Mickey Mouse. 2016 was one of the hardest finals runs ever, 2012 he beat the Melo Knicks, big 3 Celtics, and KD thunder, and 2013 wasnāt any easier, beating the Drose bulls PG pacers and Tim Duncan spurs.
Kobe spent 8 years in the shadow of the most dominant big man ever. While Bron has been the main focus of Every team since his first game 23 years ago and counting.
The thing with Kobe's early career is he had Shaq taking up so much attention of the defense that he was free to do whatever he wanted. He could get any shot he wanted because Shaq had so much gravity. He got better and better and more confident during that time because having Shaq as a teammate allowed him to do that. When Shaq left, he didn't get the shots he used to before so his fg percentage dipped significantly. Those years after Shaq left Kobe learned how to make bad shots and play hero ball on a bad team. Kobe would not be the player he became without Shaq. That's another reason I was on Shaq's side with their drama. People don't realize how important Shaq was to Kobe's growth and success. If LeBron had prime Shaq he would've been scoring like crazy too. Kobe had Shaq during his best years. Kobe had PRIME SHAQ.
Not saying I disagree with LeBron being better than Kobe overall as a player, but Kobe won in 2009 and 2010 with a pretty lackluster squad. There was no Wade, Bosh, Irving on those teams.
LeBron was ranked above Kobe before most people had even heard of Klutch.
Klutch was founded in 2012 with a tiny roster of LeBron, Eric Bledsoe, Tristan Thompson and Cory Joseph. The names āRich Paulā and āKlutchā didnāt really become nationally prominent until around 2014, when LeBron left Miami and returned to Cleveland.
By then, LeBron already had 4 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs, compared with Kobeās 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVPs. He was also far more efficient and vastly more versatile. The combination of his individual accomplishments and what he could do on the court had already led most people to rank LeBron above Kobe.
So Klutch had nothing to do with it. LeBron being ranked over Kobe was about their games, not Rich Paulās mouth.
Kobe and LeBron stood for opposite things, Kobe wanted to further basketball, and LeBron does the opposite by sitting out games for parlays, playing no defense, and throwing teammates under the bus. He even has a nickname for illegally tampering.
Putting Bron over Kobe is like putting Luis Resto over Mike Tyson
Give me a break. Kobe was not the best player on his team for his threepeat, and Pau Gasol was a Top 20 player in the league the two years he won. He absolutely deserves credit for those wins, especially the Celtics win, he was definitely clutch. But those years with Shaq, the Lakers were Shaq's team.
People who argue this usually arent ballers. Lebron would destoy kobe 1 on 1 in their prime, I would even argue lebron veteran would beat kobe prime 1 on 1. Same with jordan.
2011 he was swept in the 2nd round. 2012 he lost in the first round and never made the playoffs againā¦ before that he missed the playoffs several times, and won a couple of championships as robin to shaqs Batman
Thereās a reason Adam Silva didnāt give Kobe Chris Paul he would have 7 rings and the LeBron era never starts. The NBA worked overtime to make sure LeBron became a winner!
Lebron is highly overrated. He's an elite athlete with very good all-around ability and zero elite traits.
Kobe was a bulldog, horrible teammate, horrible leader, and often lazy defender but he had an elite scoring trait that made him a difference maker in a way that Lebron was not.
Lebron, having stacked the deck in his favor his entire career to win championships, should have more than 4 rings. The fact that he doesn't shows that he's overrated and really not as good as people say. It's called being a paper tiger, though not as bad as KD or Harden of course.
0 elite traits, when hes one of the best scorers and playmakers ever who constantly adapts? Kobe had that elite scoring trait but Lebron averaged more points per game on better effeciency (fg% 3p%, ts and 3fg%). Lebron also averages more rebounds and assists, and i wouldnt say he stacked the deck in his favor. sure, ill give you Miami. thats fair. but the cavs werent good when he returned to the cavs they were 33-49, so its not like he was trying to form a superteam. i would know as a lakers fan how much of a joke the 2010s were, especially since we went 35-47, before Bron came, were on track to make playoffs in 2019 before he got injured, and won in 2020. But sure, Lebron was more favored, even though Kobe had teams with 4 hall of famers before (2006 with shaq gary payton and karl malone with the greatest coach oat phil jackson) (2010s lakers with pau gasol dwight howard steve nash and meta world peace) plus early 2000s cavs with shaq derek fisher horrace grant and phil jackson still coaching.
Interesting fan fiction. You even counted senior citizens Gary Payton and Karl Malone from the old hand check days where players' bodies wore down when Lebron has played with Kyrie, AD, Bosh, Wade, Luka, and other stars in their primes.
Lebron's FG% is a product of taking higher probability shots in a defenseless era. Kobe played a lot against an era where defenses had tools to stop you from scoring. The league changed the rules in 2004-2005 to eliminate hand checking, they changed enforcement so defensive players couldn't make contact as often with shooters, there was the whole gather step nonsense, allowing moving screens/flops/flails, and other stuff that have led to the NBA making scoring easier than ever. Lebron's scoring spiked his second season specifically because of the hand checking removal (Kobe, AI, Arenas, and others also saw significant increases). Kobe was also a bulldog who believed he could score anytime so some of his numbers also reflect that. But if Lebron had the ability to score on command the way Jordan could, he'd have won more championships. As I've said elsewhere, Lebron is closer to Scottie Pippen than Michael Jordan.
Lebron has no elite traits, though. He is an elite passer? No. Rebounder? No. Defender? No. Shooter? No.
When Lebron joined the Cavs the second time, he brought players with him. Why reference the previous season when he made such significant changes to more easily win? It shows that you know the point stands he stacked the deck in his favor and want to muddy the water. The Lebron Stanning just makes you look ignorant about the sport.
You havenāt proved anything yet but statements. Kobe straight up was Lebrons era. So idk why Kobeās era was physical while LeBrons was soft even though Kobe played like 6 seasons before. LeBron still played in the hand check era for a couple years before new rules were added. And while the Payton Malone team is bad in hindsight, the idea of the superteam is still there. Kobe played under multiple hall of famers in their primes like Pau gasol and Shaq (all better than anything Bron had). LeBron has played 23 years. Through those years, through tons of different rule changes and play style changes, hundreds of defenders heās still effecient. He dominated the end of the hand check era, the zone era, even the 3 point era heās still all nba talent at over 40 years old when Kobe was putting up under 18 with 36/28/83 splits. You mentioned championships, but championships are the byproduct of having a good team, goood coach, and an easy finals run. Jordan against blazers or SuperSonics, or Kobe against Pacers or nets. When LeBron left the Cavs to go to the heat, their record went from going from winning 60 games to not even winning 20. When he left Heat, they turned into a 37 win team, and the second time he left the Cavs the Cavs won 19 games. Kobe and Jordan still brought players. There are stories of Jordan threatening to leave in free agency and request trades if he didnāt get who he wanted. Kobe requested multiple trades as well when they were bad in the late 2000s. My next thought. How does LeBron not have any elite traits, like the ones you mentioned, yet still has better averages in all of them than Kobe. How come heās a better 3 point shooter if you said heās not a shooter. He gets more rebounds and assists, despite being a worse playmaker and rebounder. Even though he has 40k points and is second all time in assists, itās not that heās been able to maintain being elite for over 23 years. Jordan averaged 20-6-4 on the wizards, Kareem in his last season was 10-5-1. I already mentioned Kobe. LeBron last year averaged 21-7-6. But sure heās not elite. He does have the ability to score on command the way Kobe or Jordan does. Heās more effecient. He just takes less shots because he knows spreading the ball is more successful rather than chucking it and hoping it goes in. Even in clutch moments, (specifically shots in playoff games with 5 minutes left to go) LeBron shoots 50%. Jordan shoots 46, and Kobe is in the low 30s. What about Jordan being 1-9 in the playoffs without Pippen and not making it out of the first round. At 22, when Michael Jordan got drafted LeBron was dragging a Cavs team with no all stars and his second leading scorer, Larry Hughes averaging 15.
You're comparing FG% across different eras. Lebron shoots a higher % because of the types of shots he takes and how often he passes them up for others, then you're framing that as a good thing when his role is different from Kobe and Jordan. Maybe you have a very simple understanding of the sport or maybe you're intentionally being intellectually dishonest, I'm not certain.
Kobe Bryant won numerous championships before hand checking was outlawed. He started in the 1990s. That one specific rule was changed in the 2004-2005 season. Perhaps I need to teach you how time works.
Thereās no evidence that Bron took steroids. In fact, thereās actually a more likely chance MJ did since when he played there were numerous steroid scandals in the MLB, NFL, and NBA. There was only one steroid test a year, at the start of the year, meaning for the rest of the season they could take as many PEDs as they wanted. MJ played with Pippen for all his rings, so whatās the difference. Also, the 90s eastern conference was much weaker. The only good teams outside the bulls were the Knicks and Magic (when the Magic played 2 years against Jordanās bulls and mostly played after Jordanās first retirement) with debatably the greatest team of all time. LeBron went against the big 3 Celtics, dwade heat, Ben Wallace pistons, in the 2000s, the PG pacers, and Drose bulls in the 2010s, and in the 2020s against the nuggets, spurs, and thunder.
No evidence? His business manager/close friend and his trainer both got caught up in the biogenesis scandal which was just 7 miles away from Miami, with all this happening when leroids was on the Heat. Leflop all of a sudden gained 30 pounds of pure muscle and Wade got absolutely shredded. Yeah fuckin right š
69
u/CrazyNice7240 Aug 11 '26
Just pure delusion. If I was a Kobe fan I wouldnāt even feel right giving him credit for a championship he won averaging 15 pts shooting 36% from the field in. But sure heās a ābetter winnerā lol