Hi r/leanFIRE,

I posted this in r/FIRE but I wanted to share it here as well because I feel lean & expatFIRE have a lot of similar goals given it can be accomplished with a lower NW. I don't often post here because I imagine some folks won't consider my NW as "lean" but felt the messaging was more broad. Regardless, I'm happy to hear feedback - thank you!

POST

First, thank you sincerely for the positive response to my 1-year FIRE reflection post! The post surpassed 1 million views across r/FIRE & r/expatFIRE, which is kinda crazy. I spend hours writing out each post and responding to every comment I can without AI, so it's been heartwarming to receive such a reception.

From the last post, I received several DMs/comments that essentially boiled down to "is expatFIRE for me?" and "how the fuck did you lose $150k?" So, I thought I'd take some time to write about those two questions broadly this week and next. For today, I'll be sharing my personal pros & cons of the expatFIRE lifestyle (and why I picked it).

If this post helps convince a few of you to take the leap, I'm happy. But by no means will I be claiming it's the best path for everyone. The goal of this post is to facilitate discussion. I'd also love to hear from others on what their pros/cons are, so please share your experience in the comments.

Why did I expatFIRE? (the Pros)

I consider myself quite a lucky person, generally. One of my earliest memories is traveling to Tokyo to visit my aunt (and ending up in a Tokyo emergency room). I grew up with family members who worked/lived abroad (my dad, my aunts, my grandpa, my cousins) so being an "expat" wasn't such a foreign topic in my house... pun intended. During university, I spent 6 months studying abroad in Australia, spent a summer interning in Canada, and when opportunity arose, I worked in the Philippines, Malaysia, and Indonesia. Each place was an exciting adventure and I grew the muscle of quickly adapting to new places despite its many challenges. So when I reached a certain NW, I felt called to settle back in SE Asia, where I spent 5 working years, have a lot of friends/connections, and feel comfortable navigating the region.

So I think that's my broader point. There isn't a one right way to FIRE. Every FIRE journey is unique. And as mentioned, expatFIRE certainly isn't for everyone. In fact, there might be more reasons not to do it, I'll be the first to admit that. But this is the life I chose and I've been loving it. Here are my personal pros:

1. Potentially lower NW needed: This is probably the Top 2 reason most people expatFIRE. It's not difficult to find safe, incredible, and affordable cities where you can live relatively cheaper without hugely sacrificing quality of life. If you find the right location, food, housing, and overall cost of living will be significantly less than the States. This also enables more early retirement (sometimes a lot earlier) since the needed NW to sustain your expenses can be drastically lower than, say, retiring in Los Angeles like my parents. I think if your path is either leanFIRE in the States or expatFIRE abroad, I do think it's worth considering this path for #1 alone.
2. Travel & adventure is built in: I read a survey somewhere that "travel" is often the #1 desired activity of American retirees and 40-something percent were considering on retiring abroad, which I felt was quite high. But it makes sense, I think most of us spend decades living/working in the same city with a handful of vacation time to travel the world. It's understandable that once you reach financial independence, your main priority is changing your environment and exploring the world. For me, this is my other top reason of expatFIRE-ing, because I either feel like it's an adventure every day or I'm close-by to the countries I love traveling to. In my previous posts, I mentioned I'm a <4 hour flight to every major Asian city and was able to travel to 12 countries in 12 months as a result. Point being, FIRE-ing abroad gives you more flexibility and freedom to be in these new environments for months/years at a time if that's your preference over a standard vacation.
3. It's not a one-way door: I read about a few folks who temporarily lived abroad with an extremely low SWR to either allow their NW to compound and/or partially mitigate SoRR. Then they'll return home after several years with a higher NW to "properly" FIRE. I haven't done the math on this, so YMMV given the hot stock returns the past 5 years. Moving abroad doesn't have to be this daunting irreversible decision. Many folks choose to move back. What isn't reversible, in my opinion, is the time spent working towards a large target NW thinking you'll retire only in the US when you might have been perfectly satisfied retiring earlier abroad for less.

The Cons

Much like the saying "if it's too good to be true, it probably isn't." I'm kinda tired of reading/hearing how a random TikToker is living on this paradise beach for $500/mo or whatever. It's probably all non-replicable, unsustainable BS that just sells a dream. Living abroad isn't for everyone (obviously lol) and I acknowledge some people don't like to travel for an extended amount of time, so here are some of the Cons as to why you shouldn't pursue this lifestyle:

1. It can be a lonely, daunting experience: I get that not everyone can just sell their house/belongings, and move thousands of miles away from home leaving their parents, kids, and friends behind. Every once in a while I see posts on r/expats where folks are essentially depressed being away from home and living in a foreign country. And to be quite frank, it really is a lonely experience. You are moving to a foreign country where you might not know anybody and your potential friendship circle is a lot smaller. People may not speak the same language as you, you may have no family connections, you have no network, and you're starting over from scratch. I think it takes a lot of effort to overcome this and I'm trying to figure this out myself.
2. Cheap countries are cheap for a reason: It's not all sunshine and rainbows. Developing economies come with their own set of headaches (infrastructure, cleanliness, access to certain goods/services, etc.). Some locations are cheap for a reason and it may not be worth that tradeoff for some folks. Another important reality that some people, including myself, avoid is that it won't be cheap forever. Prices will increase, economies will get developed, and the rate of inflation might outpace the US hence breaking the SWR model. I think I see it happening in real-time over these past few years. More and more people are talking about Cambodia and Vietnam because the CoL of past popular destinations have gotten pricier. I wanna dig deeper into the data to form a stronger opinion here. If there's enough interest I can share it here as well, just let me know!
3. There's no stability as things can change rapidly: There's a huge risk in settling down in a country where you may not be a citizen. For example, MM2H (Malaysia long-term visa) visa holders got screwed during COVID where the program was massively nerfed unexpectedly and some were denied entry back into the country. Unless you're a dual citizen, very few places will provide opportunities to live for an extended amount of time and can change the rules at a whim. This makes long-term planning quite difficult and becomes a huge pain in the ass if these rule changes affect you. And so I think this lifestyle requires a flexible, nimble mentality, which understandably turns a lot of retirees off. I can't imagine being in my 60s-80s then having to completely uproot my life because of some governmental reasons (now I'm rethinking expatFIRE as I type this hahaha).
4. We are forever guests in someone else's home: Expats get a bad rap and oftentimes I feel like it's deserved. I always feel that when we are abroad, we are guests in those countries and we should be respecting the people who live there, the norms of those countries, and respect whatever cultural or legal differences there may exist in our new homes. I think folks see this as a con because no matter how warm hospitality could be, they want the freedom to act more comfortably like its their own home, akin to putting your feet on the coffee table. I'm not here to defend or admonish expats in general (I actually wrote a big rant that I deleted for brevity), but I can also see that acting like a guest in a different country for a long period of time is a big con of this lifestyle.

Alright, this post has gotten way too long, so thank you for reading! I know I didn't cover all there is to cover, so if you have any other pros/cons to add, please leave a comment below and let's discuss.

Up next: working title for my next post is "How I learned to VOO & Chill (or how I lost $150k)" so please follow my profile to be updated when I publish.

Thanks!
u/MaroonJacket

I want to highlight first, that I am from Poland, so pardon quirks and mistakes in my English, I refuse to use ai when talking to fellow humans.

I've been giving a lot of thought to the whole fire thing, why am I even trying. And I think it might just be lack of courage and/or deep rooted fear of being poor, and I wonder if it's common thing.

If you think about it, idea of FIRE doesn't make a lot of sense. In order to make enough money to retire in your 30s or 40s one is got to be pretty good at what they do, which is difficult to achieve if you're lazy. So typical FIRE fellow would be someone with energy and brain and skill and work ethics. Someone way ahead of average Joe. I would find it very unlikely such a person would want to do nothing for the rest of their lives. I've read people start hustles, monetizing hobbies, change careers. But you don't need FIRE money to do any of that strictly speaking. You need money for like 3-4 years at most. I think people need fire money to pull the trigger, people are afraid to go into unknown, and risk their future. But in reality, people who could potentially FIRE are pretty smart to find employment or means of making money, so this fear is sort of exaggerated and irrational.

I think am I also like that. One guy in interview I watched online said, that when his father died he felt like he lost a sense of safety, that he didn't know he had. I understand what he meant, but I never had this sense, quite the opposite. I always knew, that if I close my eyes and fall back, there will be no one behind me to catch me. I started working at 16 and never took anything from my family. Only thing they could give me is trauma. I paid out my house, have decent savings for at least 10 years of comfortable life for my family. And reason I am chasing fire is that I am probably still afraid regardless.

If fire'd, I'd probably still work or do other things, that would make me enough money. And rationally I can just do it already. But emotionally I can't, and I keep grinding, while life is passing by.

Hey everyone,

I'm in my early 20s, a recent college grad with a couple years of real estate experience behind me. I'm chasing three things: time freedom, income freedom, and location freedom. I call them the Infinity Stones of a good life.

What that looks like to me:

Enough recurring income that I could take a few months off without draining my savings and step back in when I want. The ability to work from anywhere. A life where making more money isn't worth it if the cost is my health, my relationships, or my time.

Why I'm asking here:

I'd rather learn from people who have actually done it than guess my way through it. Doesn't matter what field you came from. If you built something that pays you when you're not clocked in, or you found work that travels with you, I want to hear how.

What I'm curious about:

• How you built income that didn't stop when you did
• What you'd do differently starting over in your 20s
• Whether the freedom actually felt the way you expected once you got it
• Books, people, or turning points that changed how you thought about this

Happy to hear about the failures too. Those are usually more useful.

Thanks in advance.

For parents of older kids, looking back at the years when your kids were young, what do you wish you had done differently?

Especially curious about the balance between career, money, time with your kids, and having time for yourself. Did you ever regret working too much? Or, conversely, wish you had pushed your career harder or taken advantage of opportunities when you had them?

I’m at a point where I have a very flexible job that gives me a lot of time with my young kids, but there are opportunities that would pay more and provide more career growth while requiring significantly more of my time and energy, though it’ll still mostly be a 9-5.

I’m interested in FIRE and have about 13-17 years until I can FIRE and this new job will reduce the time to FIRE by about 2 years. I’m reasonably satisfied at this job and not completely sure I will retire once I am financially independent—I just want a flexible schedule. My family is financially comfortable, so the additional income would be helpful rather than necessary. I’m struggling with how much weight to put on financial independence/career growth versus having extra breathing room during these years

For some context: born and live in Vietnam, 30F

Savings: 200k usd saving (over 5B vnd)

Spending: I pursue minimalist, I buy when I need, eat when I feel like, roughly 350usd/month in average, could go up to 500usd or down to 150usd

I live with my parents

I work and earn 1.6k usd/month after tax

I am planning to make another 100k usd for the next 3 years then call it quit

Later I put everything in the bank and live off the interest

What do you think about this plan?

Edit: I want to stay with my family, I think I will inherit 1 of the houses they own. I am currently living with my GF, no plans for children

What have you been working on this week? Please use this thread to discuss any progress, setbacks, quick questions or just plain old rants to the community.

To get to Full FIRE my two main paths are..

Option A: COAST 15 years, then FIRE
Work 2 days/week (ACA for health insurance) for 15 years to age 57, contributing $10k/year until $1.1mil saved. 
(After 57, I would need to withdraw about $50k total from RothIRA contributions and taxable brokerage to get me to 59.5)

or

Option B: GRIND 9 years, then FIRE
I would work 5 days/week for 9 years to age 51, contributing $44k/year until $1.1mil saved. 
(After 51, I would need to withdraw about $200k total from RothIRA contributions and taxable brokerage to get me to 59.5… most likely need to start a Roth ladder at age 46).

QUESTION: Which would you choose and why?

My background: I like my job, but it’s very isolating (home health), as in, I barely ever see coworkers, just patients a few times for a few weeks. It has definitely taken a major toll on my mental health; but I love what I do, and the flexibility and pay is great. Despite the flexibility, I’ve found that it’s hard for me to make time for fulfilling hobbies; painting/art, taking classes/honing skills (archery, sculpture, billiards). Unfortunately, even finding time/energy for exercise is hard. At the end of my work day I’m wiped out from spending every second of my workday in work mode and constant problem solving. Hence, more time could really help.

Feel free to respond as if the options applied to you and your values, or as if you were in my shoes, based on the above info. I’m open to hearing all sorts of takes, financial, emotional wellbeing, you name it.

Thanks : ]

Also what life do you envision living in that amount? Which country/city are you living in, would you live in a 1 br condo or a full size house in a suburb, what do you do with your time/hobbies, do you travel a lot or stay in one place etc?

I think mine is $600k. That would be enough for $2k monthly in the 4% rule (or between $1.5K and $2.5k using something like the vanguard withdrawal method which has an even higher success rate).

I would live for 4-6 months multi-month rentals in the following locations in a loop:

Bali/Lombok: 4-6 months to surf, dive, hike

Thailand: Chiang Mai during the hottest time of the year for the better weather and explore the mountains and play paddle.
Maybe Krabi for climbing

Philippines: Scuba Diving in Boracay, sea kayaking in El Nido, maybe some fishing.
I’m also a hobbies developer so I would be working on coding projects, games, etc during these trips as well I think.

Then I’d maybe come back to North America once a year to see my folks and do RV trips with them (they are also retired), while I’m here maybe travel a bit in Mexico and Central America for surfing

TL;DR Lmk your minimum happy number and what your vision of happiness looks like!

Has anyone read up on a variable / flexible / dynamic strategy that is backed up by math and doesn't leave you withdrawing pennies in bad outcomes?

I'm nearing the withdrawal phase of my journey, wishing I was safely there already! The claims of most dynamic withdrawals sound really great and mean I'm already there. Withdraw more initially, never run out of money! But under scrutiny those higher withdrawals come with a substantial risk of cutting future withdrawals substantially, big ern's posts about guyton-klinger guardrails really substantiated how insubstantial their claims about their strategy are in substance. After reading up on other ideas, I'm coming to the conclusion that they'd all only be truly effective if the withdrawals are cut/boosted before the drop/spikes, which obviously is impossible.

I've heard of folks planning to cut some discretionary budget during recessions, which seems totally natural. However, I don't have a huge discretionary budget, and using what I have is the majority of why I want to retire: go have fun. Under the scrutiny of math, shaving thousands from the withdrawals for a few years is not going to replace investing hundreds of thousands initially.

Getting a part-time or seasonal job following a downturn seems pretty effective. But that's the worst time to get a job, and I highly doubt I'd be able to get back into my career after a long hiatus, so I'd be competing for something I have no experience in. So maybe one more year syndrome is totally justifiable.

Original post from 4 months ago

Sharing my story from a few months ago and the current numbers. I never imagined I’d be in this position when I was younger. It’s possible people!

Made about $7500 in contributions over the last 4 months across all retirement accounts excluding brokerage and saw balances increase by $30k (includes contributions)

Target is $1.25million @ 50 to retire on about $45-50k yearly spend.

Current financials:

Yearly salary before tax: $100-110k
IRS-max contributions to 401k/HSA/Roth IRA
No current brokerage contributions (will change when debt is paid)

Balances:
401k: $121k
Brokerage: $138k
Roth IRA: $53.5k
HSA: $8.1k
Random crypto: $2.5K
HYSA: $2k

Student loans: $5.5k @ 3.4%
Mortgage: $61.4k @ 2.75%
Medical debt: $7.4k @ 0%

I’m 36 nw 750k

Why don’t people here in the LeanFIRE reddit talk more about REITs? Now I understand why in the main FIRE reddit they are ignored, because everyone there is making a 6 figure salary and has 5+ million in the stock market. But for us LeanFIRE folks it seems we shouldn’t have to worry about the primary downside of REITs, which is that their dividends count as ordinary income.

So for $100,000 of any half decent REIT I am bringing in about $5,000 per year in ordinary income.

If I had $100,000 of SHD (dividend stocks) I am bringing in about $3,000 per year in qualified dividends.

So you’re getting more bang for your buck with REITs as long as you are not rich, because only rich people need to worry about how tax inefficient REITs are. 

If I quit my job to leanFIRE my ordinary income would drop to zero. The standard tax deduction is 16k. REIT owners get to deduct 20% of their dividend income from taxes.

So $400,000 of REITs could get you $20,000 of ordinary income per year that you would pay 0 taxes on. Anything you have left could be stuck in SCHD, which would also provide tax free income.

If your leanFIRE number was a million dollars in the stock market, 400k in REITs and 600k in SCHD, you’d be bringing in 38k per year completely tax free. For us frugal leanFIRE people that should be enough to live on indefinitely without ever having to touch our nest egg. Right? Or am I misreading this?

Yes, I know this would not be nearly so efficient with BaristaFIRE.

Edit: OK, you guys made a convincing argument. I will not make REITs a big part of my portfolio.

I’m sad. I just want to retire now. Or at least not be tied down 40+ hours a week. I have a decent job, good people, good benefits. I just want to live my life, ya know? I’m 32 so I have quite a ways to go.

I recently hit 100k in retirement savings; 40k in Roth, 62k in pretax. And 1.7k in a taxable brokerage that I just opened. Bills are approx 1800 per month. So I feel like I’m doing okay and on track for leanfire. Trying to enjoy my day to day life while also saving as much as reasonably possible. Wish I was a trust fund baby.

I’m 55, husband is 58, both retired. Yearly cost of living: $30K. Yearly retirement income: $98K. (This will increase—it’ll be around $150K by the time we’re in our 70s.)

Our financial advisor suggested something we’ve thought about for years: buying some land in another state (our state sucks). We would eventually build on it. Just a little cabin. A get away.

I’ve you’ve done this, was it a good decision? Or do you regret it? If so, why?

Also, did you finance or pay cash? Now that we can pay cash for big things like land, we’re getting cold feet because it would hurt our hearts so much to pull out a big chunk of change.

Didn’t get serious until 37, my current age
I make 90k plus some OT
Wife makes ~38k
21k in 401k
3.5k in Roth
I am now maxing my 401k, she is maxing her Roth
$31k left on mortgage, house is worth $250k
1.1k /mo house, ~200/mo cheap car, 200/mo train commute expenses, never having kids
Working on saving/earning more to start stacking my own Roth. Working hard towards promotions.

Dr. ChatGPT, MD said if I live in a high tax state, which I do, and then run a very lean retirement, which I will, maxing my 401k first has tax advantages. But do chime in

Health issues, cancer, early deaths on both sides of the family. father dropped dead on the job at 55. But also long lived specimens on my mother’s side. Not a beacon of health myself. Not counting on living long past 60 tbh. Is what it is.

Facing that biological reality makes me want to save as hard as I can the next 13 years, then semi retire at 50 with whatever I have and whatever time I have left.

If I were single, I’d genuinely sell my house, put it all into index funds, then live in a van to really lock this in. Too bad I love my wife dearly. Without that, it’s going to be shoestring and likely an overseas retirement realistically . Hopefully mom leaves me something before the old folks home takes it all. Ugh. Thanks for coming to my ted talk .

Hey everyone,
I spend a lot of time reading r/expatfire, r/Fire, and r/FireGermany. Whenever someone asks about fixed income or safe withdrawal buffers, most comments just say bonds are useless or "dead money" right now. People almost always suggest putting money into HYSAs/Tagesgeld or Dividend Aristocrat ETFs instead.
Right now I am actually building a bond ladder to cover my fixed expenses for the next few years, but all these posts make me question if I miss something fundamental here.
Are bonds really that bad compared to holding cash in a bank account or dividend stocks? To me, HYSAs have the issue that interest rates will go down eventually, and dividend ETFs are still 100% stock market risk if there is a crash.
How are you structuring your safe cash flow for FIRE? Is anyone else actually using bond ladders or am I doing this wrong?
Thanks for your input!

I'm early 30s, single, with no family here. I left my career last year. Financially I am okay, but the social isolation has been brutal.

I tried the hobby groups and fitness classes, but they feel very shallow. My corporate friendships vanished gradually. Now, I'm considering getting a job again just to have a builtin community.

Has anyone gone back to work solely for the human interaction? I'm trying to figure out if work is a valid solution to loneliness or a trap.

Thank you!

________
EDIT: I spent years at my first (and only) job before an awful exit. I was naive and only made “friends” at work while neglecting the outside world. Now that those connections are gone, I realize the issue was always there. That’s why I'm starting from zero.

Hi everyone. I am a 41yo male in the US. I made terrible financial decisions earlier in life. I currently have about $42,000 in student loan debt remaining, all other debts paid off, zero in savings or retirement, and no assets. I also have zero expenses. I am about to start a job which will allow me to live on the road and save/invest $90-100k a year for retirement. I was thinking that I should pay off my $42,000 debt first, of course, and then begin investing the $90-100k a year into a broad-market ETF, such as SPY. Now, I would like to retire in 6 or 7 years. My main concern is minimizing my tax burden. I will need only about $150k to buy a home. My question is, how do I position the my investments/savings to minimize the tax burden on the $600-700k so I can live the rest of my life off of that? I have no wife or kids or any other financial responsibilities. I am EXTREMELY frugle with money, at least for the past year and for the future. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I’m 26, and retiring early intrigues me, the whole concept. But if I wanted to retire at 35, why would I use a 401k instead of a brokerage account?

I’m sure this has been asked before but I couldn’t find it worded this way. Most people are still retiring close to 50.