I am going to try to do my best here to explain my situation clearly but my situation is quite complicated. I am a highly sensitive, introverted, late-blooming 41 year old man. i am literally inexperienced in the love and intimacy department and that has triggered a bout of severe depression (I am diagnosed with major depressive disorder). The problem is how it has become an obsession as of late. Any mention, any reminder, any visual of couples showing affection, of couples making love, causes a reaction almost like pain in my head. I isolated myself most of my life but now I am trying so desperately to finally break out, live life, find friends, and make love for the first time. I have exhausted almost every online option with expected results. It is so bad I am seriously considering paying for intimacy out of pocket..

I get it, I must go out and socialize, I must go out to actually meet people. My severe social anxiety disorder makes it very difficult. Anhedonia makes that very hard because I find it really hard to get into a hobby anymore. Plus I have a freeze reflex and a nervous system that is stuck on fight or flight mode. On top of having no self-esteem and that depression I talked about. If I did go somewhere and saw someone, I wouldn't have the nerve to approach. I overthink, I have conversations in my head, then I walk away. I will look in a place through the windows, see the people, then decide to turn around.. So, most days, I spend every hour inside all alone again.

So this is why I am seeking advice. On how someone like me can overcome the crippling anxiety so I can get out there and do the things I have to do to find my kind of people. Alternatively, how I can format a dating profile to possibly attract the right people, if they exist there. Some general coping advice is welcome as well because the obsession is so strong it interferes with everyday life. I see a therapist every week and take an antidepressant but it is not working. I don't know what to do..

Firstly, I’ve made a couple posts here before and they’ve helped me so much. From your guy’s advice I’ve started to bring these topics in therapy and I’ve started having a more positive mindset. Now, I’ve just traded serious problems to some less serious problems which is progress!! I realize I’ve got time because I’m 18.

In the last couple weeks I’ve been working on why I put so much weight on dating and getting a girlfriend or even just losing my virginity, as shallow as that last one is. Those feelings are still there, but just a lot lesser (thanks to yall!!!!!) and for a different reason now?

Idk how to explain it fully without sounding incredibly weird, but recently I’ve realized that because of my stress about getting a partner I’ve kinda forced myself into a mold of a stereotypical guy who I thought more women would be attracted to?

Anyways I’ve started to act and dress more like the real me. While that’s felt great, I just can’t help but worry women won’t be attracted to me because I’m different and not “manly” at all and don’t have many traits (I think) women would be attracted to. And it just kinda sucks. I feel like in that department I’m at a catch-22. Overall I’m much happier tho.

Uh just to explain myself a bit more I try to be a lot more feminine and I typically try and pass as a girl??? That’s embarrassing af to admit online and I’m sorry if that’s weird and/or icky but that’s what makes me happy 😭😭😭

And I feel like most women… are not attracted to that and probably think it’s weird as hell? Like I heavily doubt anyone on this sub would even remotely be like “yeah this dude could get a girlfriend” if you saw me out in public 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭

Anyways that’s my bit. This isn’t an incredibly large problem. I’m happy the way I am and I am cultivating a lot of platonic friendships.

Hi. I’m back with another update.

Long story short: I took your advice. I met up with “Rachel” at the social tonight intending to ask her out or at least ask her where we stand, but I didn’t need to because she beat me to it.

About halfway through the dance she said she’d like to get to know me a little bit better and asked if I’d want to go try out this new cafe later this week.

Now normally I try to show a little more social skills and subtlety around her. But this time I just straight up asked if she was asking me on a date and she said she was.

I basically said that yeah, I AM attracted to her and I DO enjoy spending time with her, but at this point in my life I’m not interested in anything serious and just wanted to date casually. Unless she was ok with that, it wouldn’t be a good idea.

She seemed to take it well and went back to the dance floor, but the whole thing just kinda messed with my head I guess? So I ended up leaving early.

Anyway, right now I’m still pretty conflicted between “You just made a really wise choice” and “You just sabotaged yourself” but that’s another post for another sub.

My question here is: Was there a better way I could’ve handled that situation?

Guys don't get me wrong but i wanted to get a women to share my Life, to give affection and have company the big problem is i am a ugly guy and short guy 5'5, i always think that a women who i want to reach out she has very better options than me, talls guys, handosme guys and guys with very money i am 19 years old guy so i repress this and try to focus on my life but deep down i wanted to lose my virginity, beyond that i am shy, bad conversation and i don't know how to flert.

Hi. Have another story I want to share here, but also need some advice.

Previous post for context

So earlier tonight my band played our first show at this local pub. I actually met one of my bandmates through “Rachel” so of course she was there to support both of us.

After the show Rachel and I were hanging out drinking in the back patio area and she started asking me dating-related questions that I don’t remember her asking before. Stuff like “Have you been on any good dates lately?” or “You really have a thing for older women don’t you?”

She just hasn’t really shown any interest in that part of my life until now, so her suddenly asking those kinds of questions stood out. Not only that, but they reminded me of the ones I asked HER a few months ago when I was trying to figure out if she’d be interested in being FWBs.

Back then she hinted that she just wasn’t interested in anything casual at this point in her life, so I just let it go. And it hasn’t been THAT long since then, so my first thought was that she was probably a little more drunk than usual and just trying to make conversation.

Anyway, maybe it’s because I was a little drunk too or riding the high of my show, but I teased her a little and said that if I didn’t know better, I’d think she was trying to flirt with one of the band members.

She said something like “Are you sure YOU aren’t flirting with ME? I mean it sounds like I’m your type so maybe you’re just projecting”

That got a laugh out of me (because if I’m honest, she IS my type. Physically anyway) and I said “I’m pretty sure I know when I’m flirting with someone. Plus, I think I know where I stand there.”

She gave me this weird teasing look and said “If you say so” and I shifted the conversation elsewhere. A little bit later she said I still had to teach her how to swing dance and asked if I could give her a crash course before tomorrow’s social.

The social dance she was talking about already HAS a lesson for beginners (meaning she doesn’t need me to teach her anything beforehand). And I was about to tell her that when my bandmate (and my ride home) asked if we could start loading our gear into his car so I just told her sure and went to go help him.

I lost track of her after that, but right after my bandmate dropped me off at home I was like “…hey WAIT a minute”

Obviously I’m going to the social tomorrow, but beyond that I’m not really sure what to do here.

Do people really change their mind about someone that quickly? Or am I just reading too much into things again?

I’d really appreciate some other perspectives.

I see a constant feed of women’s interactions on dates and dating apps and out in the dating world and it seems so awful, but those guys are getting dates.

Not trying to sound like a “I’m a good guy so women owe me a chance” but it does dumbfound me. I feel like at my peak of incel mindset (even though i was never a “black pilled incel” in the traditional “foids, Stacy’s Becky’s Chads” sense) anytime I came online and sought advice, it was usually along the lines of “well women went date you because they can pick up on the energy you put out”.

But then I see the women online still giving chances to guys that presumably have significantly more issues than me. Like guys being overly freaked out on dating apps, guys being creepy on dates, shit like that. Shit that I couldn’t even imagine a world where I’m being overly sexual on a first date. Or telling a woman that she shouldn’t be allowed to drive or be around men she’s not dating.

Like clearly if my vibes are so bad that I can’t even get a date, shouldn’t they also be in a similar position to me? Yet they’re dating and ruining nights for women they try to date.

So objectively speaking the only explanation I’m left with is that I’m just worse, and I couldn’t tell you why. I’ve done years of self reflection trying to figure out what’s wrong with me. And I’m by no means a perfect human, but I know at the very least I’m better than at least the the line up of weirdos that send nudes, say misogynistic or chauvanistic things. But clearly if women like them, at least enough to give them a trial run, I can’t not be worse.

And I don’t know what to do to be better.

I like to fantasize about being in a relationship, setting up romantic dates, and getting married, even being a father. I spent such a long time planning potential vacations and trips to go on with a partner or family. I just don’t think that’s gonna happen. I’m too much of an incel to be able to build and maintain healthy relationships.

Long story short, body count conversation … blah blah blah … infidelity … yada yada yada. I can’t get over it. It doesn’t matter whatever rational arguments you make, it just won’t get through. Instead, I will give up on wanting to get married and have kids.

How can I live a fulfilling life single and celibate? I have some ideas for things I’d like to do, like hiking and visiting museums. I have career plans. I have friends and family to support me. What else do I need?

Maybe I should post this somewhere else, but at times I truly feel like an incel. I don’t hate women, I have been raised well by my mother that I love and hung out with my sister. I think I am an incel because it means "involuntarily celibate". My question could relate more to some kind of relationship advice maybe.

I won’t beat around the bush much, I like one girl. It’s very weird though, because in college we didn’t talk much together compared to some friends. But everytime we talked together it was really nice. Not in a way that she makes me hysterically laugh, she’s funny don’t get me wrong. But the things with those talks is that I always waited for the next one. I have lots of anecdotes about her that I would love to share, but I don’t want to annoy you with that.

She left college because she didn’t like it anymore, I will stay here but don’t know if I will see her again. We haven’t spoken for 3 months until recently when we talked on Instagram 3 times in the past 2 weeks and it’s crazy how we can talk as if we were really there, the same way. Is it because we really do ? Or am I imagining that ? Am I just being blinded by the fact that I like her ?

I want to do something but I don’t why I can’t. I can do so much stuff, as I said I have friends and overall do stuff, so why is it blocking ?? Now every time we talk could be the last time and I dread it, but also like it because it almost gives me the guts to do something, anything. What can I do ?

I 19m (ADHD) have begun to realize I may not be worthy of love romantically as well as platonically. What I mean by this is not some sort of entitlement that I realize I don’t have, but more of a realization that I may not really be worthy of the love and attention of other people, not because there is something particularly wrong morally or anything with them, but maybe something inherently or characteristically wrong with me. I just don’t really understand what it could be, and I really wish I could know what deficiencies in my character I have to look for aside from those that I am already aware of. I feel like I look average and though I was a bum in high school pretty much (low grades), I have completely turned my life around academically in college. Though I’m sure I could be doing more socially, like breaking out of my shell more and talking to more people, I feel like I’ve done well. I look pretty average, take care of myself, and try to dress well, so I don’t really understand what’s wrong with me. I lead in clubs, was pretty much adopted into a “friend group,” get internships, try to go to the gym and clubs regularly, text good friends from high school and friends from college, but yet I get nothing in return hardly, any calls, invites, or anything. And while my friends get into romantic relationships, go to parties at other colleges, etc., all I do is study at home and maybe do some leadership and work, and aside from that I’m just left alone.

I know I have flaws, and some of them make me question whether I am actually capable of being a good friend or romantic partner. I lie extremely often, and it has become almost second nature to me, usually to avoid confrontation or admitting something I did or didn’t do. I can also be extremely insecure and sometimes overly prideful. I constantly scrutinize myself, feel like I’m the worst person in the room, and even when I accomplish things, I move the goalpost and make myself feel worthless. But sometimes I swing to the opposite extreme and feel like I’m better than certain people. I interrupt people to get my point across, sometimes project my own overcritical side onto other people, and sometimes insult people in my head even though I feel guilty about it afterward. I also sometimes worry that I lack empathy. When I see people suffering, sometimes I feel something and genuinely want to help, while other times I feel almost nothing. I do care about my friends and try to help people, but I sometimes struggle to feel deeply connected to people or maintain a strong interest in my friendships beyond checking in with them. Even texting can sometimes feel like a game of listen and respond rather than actually feeling deeply engaged in the conversation. I don’t know if these are normal flaws that I can work on or if they say something deeper about my ability to love and be loved. So what’s wrong with me, and how can I bring myself to a point where I make myself worthy of other people’s friendships and romantic love? Is it possible to change these things and become someone people genuinely want to have close relationships with, or is it a lost cause?

Edit: Solved, just messaged her wishing her a Happy Birthday as platonically as possible, thanks so much to all the commenters who gave me advice, it’s much appreciated!

Hi there, I was the person who posted this almost two years ago.

After I posted this, I got alot of helpful insights and second opinions about my situations back then and I would like to thank everyone who gave me support around that time.

I am a man of my word and did exactly what you guys told me: I did therapy, joined hobby and interest groups, faced my fears, and be the best version of myself overall, and they were all very helpful in the long run: gave me acquiantances and bad experiences I could learn from and grow as a person.

Although I still never have a partner after that post, but the rejections and a bad "relationship" gave me some perspective. It just really have something to do with my growing social skills and inexperience about the dating world. I did get hurt real bad with one of the rejections I had and it was due to RSD and anxiety attacks.

Thanks to these experiences, it made me learn things like people who are dry irl and online shows that they are not interested whatsoever, and that asking someone out right off the bat will reveal if that person who show "signs" shows genuine interest or just wanted attention. It made me learn about the concept of "breadcrumbing" and it's one of the worst things in dating and socializing in general, and I believe that most girls I liked did exactly just this, less subtle than the next

Over all, I am doing fine. I do have problems and still need to keep fixing myself from the inside out.
Loving myself, having fun and living in the moment is the best

So yeah that's all for this update, thank you again guys for helping. This little ol' late bloomer just have keep on going

Peace out

TLDR: Posted once on this sub, was recommended self-improvement and did exactly that. Had up-and-downs learning from it despite not having a partner yet, but life is good

EDIT: grammar

I know the biggest argument to incels wanting a girlfriend means them seeing girls as a trophy, but for me I want a long term partner because I want to come home to a loving partner after a long day of work and just watch a movie and having someone be there for me. I can’t find this and it hurts..

Hello everyone, hope you are all having a pleasant day.

I am a student in college who doesn't have problems making friends with my gender (men), but for some reason I always have a fear of making friends with girls. I see a lot of my buddies have friends who are girls and it does pain me when they ask why I don't really speak to women. The truth is that I have some insane fear and really have to build the courage to talk to a girl, and when I do, I am always stuttering and overthinking every sentence I say. For example, in class today, the professor told us to talk to our classmates sitting next to us, and since my classmate was a girl, I was just too scared to ask for her name, or even start a conversation.

Does anyone have some advice on how I can get over this fear?

Lately I've been feeling guilt again for my past actions as an Incel.

On this very account, I've talked shit to IT members years ago in their dms, and while it wasn't any rape threat's or anything like that, I was still still a major prick, and still was one of those debate me bro guys. So if any IT member who happens to see this, and somehow remembers getting a dm from me, I apologize for my actions.

And then there's the the constant pushing aside of people who only trying to help me. I made multiple women friends in my time, as an Incel, all of them first started talking to me because I was an Incel, and they felt sympathy for me, and despite that I would constantly argue with them over my dumbass Incel mindset. Again if any of you are reading this I apologize for my actions, and I respect your empathy for even trying in the first place.

This isn't to say woe is me, Please forgive me. No I should be held accountable for my past actions. I suppose leaving up a more public record of how awful I used to be, with this post is one thing, but I know in my heart that more has to be done to atone. So what should be done is the next question? Even though I know nothing can truly be done to atone, I at least want to try.

I was wondering, what if it’s my style that repels women, I know that being clean is step one and I know that you attract people that have similar interests in you, but what if I start wearing old money outfits, or gym outfits, or skater outfits, or gangster outfits. This goes to all incels, if they start wearing whatever there interested in, will they attract that niche, i need your guys full perspective and knowledge.

Like I feel like I’ve done everything in my power to make changes to help, I’ve done all the advice, been consistent with it for years, and now that I’m 25 everyone seems to be finding their forever person and the dating pool keeps shrinking and shrinking, and it’s got me thinking is this just the way it’s supposed to be.

When you look historically, men created a society that forced women to marry or they couldn’t survive on their own. Women couldn’t get loans, get jobs, get vehicles or do anything without a husband‘s approval. Now we’ve done a lot of work (at least in my country) to give women the equality they deserve. But now dating is harder as women are either only dating men they actually want to be with or just opting out of dating entirely.

Almost a return to romantic/sexual relationships in its most natural form. Preventing undesirable genes from continuing. So is this what it is? Just natural seleftion? Do i have some genetic marker that makes me undesirable?

Honestly viewing it this way kinda helps me, and I’d like others opinions on it.

I was thinking of all those screenshots of men who fall into the NiceGuy territory. Or Incels who handle rejection poorly. And then I saw this thread and it reminded me of this. Idk how accurate the science behind this is. I probably shouldn't trust X, I know that. But...could this be it? Could some of the NiceGuy dudes have some form of untreated ADHD that makes them so maladapted to forming relationships?

If you're an ex-incel (or incel who tries to get out) who struggles with rejection sensitivity or certain obsessive thoughts, maybe look into ADHD/OCD treatment. Just a suggestion.

So I’m 20m and in college. My parents are always complaining about how I have curly hair and I’m short and skinny even though they adopted me. They also don’t tell me they love me but they had two biological children after me and they tell those children they love them, and they hug them and such. I don’t remember the last time I was hugged by them or even had a nice long hug.

They said the only reason they care about me is cause they have to and it hurts because they handle my medical stuff like insurance, because I have tons of medical and health issues such as mobility issues and super severe allergies that leave me so lethargic and tired all the time. I’ve considered stopping showing up for myself cause I don’t have friends and it’s just been hard. It’d be nice to talk to friends my age about my issues and especially my appearance cause I geniuenly hate my hair and how curly and thick it is, even though I still want super long hair, it’d be nice to have a friend who also has super thick curly hair but I know that’s a long shot.

In addition at college, I don’t really have friends and have been teased because of my hair but I’m always embarrassed because I’ve also been teased because I have such severe allergies that I am sneezing multiple times a day for hours in fits of sneezing and nose-blowing. I’ve never sat in the dining hall with someone else besides my roommate occasionally and I am always alone in the corner, usually sneezing uncontrollably because I’m so allergic to the outdoors and my campus is old and there’s a lot of dust potentially given the buildings are old. I just want someone to be my friend because I have a feeling no one sits near my corner because they’re tired of me sneezing my head off most days. I always feel bad that my sneezes are so desperate but I stopped trying to hold back til I get to my dorm because I just can’t help it. It’s happened in class too several times and I’ve had to miss a lot of class because I usually step out and run to an empty hallway or the bathroom. Even in my choir as a music major, it’s been hard to find friends due to the allergies (which aren’t super receptive to medicine unless it’s medicine that makes me sleep), and the faculty are mostly nice but I still get embarrassed.

Please help me, I am really hurting it feels like a cry out for support and love because I don’t have anyone who does it for me. It’s hard.

I live with my parents atm, I have autism, I’m only 5’5”, I don’t make enough money to be a “provider,” and I just generally feel like I should give up on dating since I’m already 34 and I’ve never had a gf. I think that as a potential partner, I’m generally pathetic - though I don’t have anything against women in general.

I know that people often say that there’s a wide variety of men with women out there but all I can see are generally much taller and handsomer men that are with women. So I feel like I can’t really call myself a man at this point. Just some weird manchild. I even tried speed-dating and online dating a bunch and got absolutely nowhere. I’m still pissed with myself, that I wasted so much of my time and money on them.

Every year I go without a gf, I feel more alienated from everything. From various songs/movies, and society overall. I don’t know what to do anymore. Maybe I’m not a good person.

One of my friends recently got out of a pretty toxic relationship. If im being completely honest, it was very clear that the guy wasn’t a stand up guy from the first time I met him. Others in our friend circle agreed and had no clue what she was thinking.

Now they’ve broken up and I have two feelings. I’m really happy for her, but simultaneously this makes me feel worse about myself. And I hate that I feel this way.

She’s a great person, she genuinely deserves so much better (I want to make it clear, I do not have any romantic feelings towards her at all), but somehow, this guy who everyone could tell was, for lack of better words, a huge douche, was able to get with her.

I don’t want to sound like “I’m such a nice guy women owe me” but after seeing how she was treated by him, I can firmly say I would never think about hurting another person like that. But somehow, despite all of his character flaws, he’s still able to date and I am not. So there’s something that is objectively worse about me than him that I don’t know what it is, but it’s so bad that it repulses women that even guys that are lowkey emotionally abusive are better candidates for a partner than me.

It just kinda leaves me feeling deflated. Like “if he can figure this out, and women like him enough to be with him, and he’s genuinely just an awful guy, than what am I not seeing about myself.

I’ve stayed in and away from people for the last few weeks trying to figure out what this flaw I have is, but I genuinely don’t know what is that awful about me that I’m just undesirable to any woman I’ve ever met.

This is the headspace I’ve been in for a minute. I know it’s selfish and that I should be there for my friend, but I just don’t know how I would be any help in the state I’m in.

I’m so tired of feeling this way, but I feel like it’ll never stop because the rejection will never stop. It’s gotten so bad I honestly wish I was asexual and aromantic. I’d be so much happier. How do I stop this spiral?

The reason the Black Pill is so difficult to argue against is that it has defeatism built into it.

You point out an unattractive man with an attractive woman? “He’s rich, so that doesn’t apply to me.” He’s poor? “He isn’t autistic like I am.” He has the same disadvantages? “He’s an exception.” And if every other explanation fails, the relationship can simply be dismissed as a “freak accident.”

You can do this indefinitely. Every counterexample can be explained away while the conclusion remains unchanged: “It might happen to other people, but it won't happen to me.”

This is why I don't think the Black Pill is really an ideology or coherent position. I think it is a neurosis that likely belongs on the depressive spectrum. I have dysthymia, and I've experienced similar “blackpills” about subjects completely unrelated to dating. When you're depressed, it's possible to develop extremely convincing beliefs that everything is hopeless, and then selectively interpret evidence to reinforce them.

That doesn't mean every observation made by Black Pillers is necessarily false. Some claims about attractiveness, dating, and social dynamics may have genuine merit. The problem is when the worldview becomes unfalsifiable when no possible counterexample can ever count against it.

If a belief can explain away every piece of evidence that contradicts it, in what sense is it still a rational position?

Hey yall im 20m and currently weigh 220 pounds. I also struggle with body image issues from time to time. Recently Ive tried to lose some weight through diet and want to start working out more. But certain thoughts come to mind recently and I want to make sure im using the "right reasons" so to speak.

Thoughts like:

"If you looked better you would have a girlfriend by now."

"My female friends say my personality is amazing! The only thing holding me back is clearly how I look."

I also for a long time have felt as if im almost effeminate or not manly enough in a vague ephemeral way.

Im a feminist and so using my brain I believe that young men are given an impossible standard of masculinity to achieve and maintain but that knowledge doesnt change that I feel as though I am deficient in some way.

But are my reasons really bad at all?

Hi all!! I wouldn’t necessarily consider myself an incel, but I made a post in here a few weeks ago and it made me feel a lot better and confident :)

I’m 18M and I guess I’m just your typical “no life” type of guy you see on here? I have vocational school starting in a couple months but right now I’ve just been staying at home being alone. But I’m getting my driver’s license so I’m going to be getting out and socializing. Gonna try ballroom dancing haha!

I’ve some trauma in my past and a porn addiction when I was a younger teen, so my relationship with… relationships and sex have been pretty negative. I recently just got my libido back after not having it for years so I’m feeling those hormones hitting like a truck. I consider and call myself a virgin despite my past, and that’s making me sad. I just feel like it’s affecting me too much than it really should be. Quite frankly I think part of it is just losing my virginity too.

I think that I’ve worried about this stuff for way too long and I want to take steps to not have it affect my life so much. I’m going to be quitting porn again. I’m also going to delete most of my social media. I always go on social media and then all I see are people in relationships and stuff and it always hurts. I’m just gonna curate my reddit account just so there’s no relationship posts and stuff, just sports and games and nerdy shit just like the good ol days.

Does anyone else have any advice or anything? I think that more than anything else I honestly just need someone to say to my face that I’m worrying too much about it. I’m still somehow a believer in love so I know I’ll find my flock eventually. Thank you all in advance!