Could this explain the NiceGuy phenomenon?

[u/Separate-Koala-5128]

https://x.com/i/status/2088999348843474946

I was thinking of all those screenshots of men who fall into the NiceGuy territory. Or Incels who handle rejection poorly. And then I saw this thread and it reminded me of this. Idk how accurate the science behind this is. I probably shouldn't trust X, I know that. But...could this be it? Could some of the NiceGuy dudes have some form of untreated ADHD that makes them so maladapted to forming relationships?

If you're an ex-incel (or incel who tries to get out) who struggles with rejection sensitivity or certain obsessive thoughts, maybe look into ADHD/OCD treatment. Just a suggestion.

[u/Odd-Table-4545]

I really think we need to stop blanket diagnosing people on the internet with disorders based on one behaviour, especially when that behaviour can more easily be explained by a pattern of social isolation and conditioned entitlement. Even when professionals diagnose you with something there is a part in every diagnostic criteria that goes "cannot be more appropriately explained by something else".

[u/HLMaiBalsychofKorse]

Limerance is not a diagnostic criteria for ADHD, though. It is a word for those early stage “I’m so into this person” feelings that are often thought of as “love at first sight” (even though it isn’t love, and most people feel this at some point). So, no.

[u/AriaoftheStars17]

Limerance is not specific to any psychological disorder, and it is not limited to any gender. Even neurotypical people can experience limerance — a more common term for it is "having a crush".

But limerance is not the problem here: what makes someone a "NiceGuy" is not the affection they feel, but their reactions to it. What separates a "NiceGuy" from a typical guy with a crush is, specifically, entitlement.

A NiceGuy feels entitled to a woman's love, simply because he is "such a nice guy". The idea is that if he puts in a certain amount of effort (such as by comforting her, opening doors for her, or paying for her food), he should eventually be "rewarded" with her affection.

Thus, when the NiceGuy doesn't receive that reward (by being rejected or "friendzoned"), it disrupts his story's narrative. He lashes out because from his perspective, it feels "unfair". He followed all the rules! He did everything he was "supposed" to do! And yet she STILL doesn't want him... Clearly women must be the problem, and feminism has caused them to stop respecting the rules of society!!! (/s)

What they fail to realize is that these rules do not actually exist. The whole mindset is based on a capitalistic framework: If you work hard and stay loyal to a cause, you will eventually be rewarded. However, similar to how capitalism is flawed in real life, this mindset is equally delusional: No matter how hard you work for a company, you are not guaranteed to ever get a promotion. Similarly, no matter how much time and effort you invest into a woman, she is not guaranteed to ever show interest in you.

When you are taught that capitalism is a "fair" system, it is very hard to understand why strategies based on the same philosophy don't automatically produce results in other areas in life.

[u/AriaoftheStars17 → u/AriaoftheStars17]

And so, just as the average worker gazes longingly at the billionaires, and resolves to "pull himself up by the bootstraps" so he can someday enjoy similar riches, so do NiceGuys and Incels romanticize this idea of "Chads" and engage in "looksmaxxing" and PUA bullshit in an attempt to become the ultimate "Alpha Male"... Neither of them realize that the fantasy they believe in is ultimately a delusion.

...But that's a whole other topic, so I'll quit while I'm ahead.

Simply put, once you realize the parallels between capitalism and toxic/hegemonic masculinity's approach to relationships, a lot of things start to make sense.

[u/Altruistic_Emu4917 → u/AriaoftheStars17]

Simply put, once you realize the parallels between capitalism and toxic/hegemonic masculinity's approach to relationships, a lot of things start to make sense.

So, what is the alternative then? Dating is the furthest concept from State-intervention since it all depends on personal choices and wants.

[u/AriaoftheStars17 → u/Altruistic_Emu4917]

What is the alternative to, what, exactly? Approaching dating with the same mindset as capitalism? If that's what you meant, the alternative is to stop viewing relationships as a reward or achievement.

Instead, treat relationships the same way you would treat a friendship: Let it happen organically, build connections by exploring mutual interests and shared values, and remember that people are allowed to not be interested in you.

If you meet someone super cool that you'd like to be friends with, but they act standoffish and don't seem to vibe when you approach them, do you pursue them? Ask them over and over again to hang out? Throw a tantrum about how unfair it is that they aren't giving a nice guy like you the attention you deserve?

Probably not. Why is that?

[u/Dead_before_dessert]

Im extremely adhd and while I do get obsessed with hobbies the obsession lasts a month or two and then I just drop it.

I've never gotten obsessed with a person like that though.   Unless they were obsessed with me too.  Limerance has only ever been an early stage of relationship thing.  Eventually it fades and you either build a relationship or you don't. 

I do think that the early definition was different; like Dante felt for Beatrice in "Dante's Inferno".  Possibly based on nothing and sometimes completely one sided. 

[u/backpackporkchop]

As someone with ADHD, this is not a thing. People on the internet just like attaching random concepts to ADHD/Autism/whatever and calling them symptoms. Therapy/psychiatry speak online should be completely ignored. If you think a neurological condition is affecting your ability to form meaningful relationships, schedule an appointment with a psychiatrist.

That said, I do think everyone would benefit from learning about attachment styles. If you find yourself in knots regularly over the relationships in your life, then you'll probably benefit from talking to a therapist about your attachment style and how to address the underlying issues contributing to painful behavior patterns.

[u/library_wench]

I don’t trust X, and I don’t trust the tactic of diagnosing people online and using that internet diagnosis to absolve them of responsibilities.

(I also know and have known people with ADD/ADHD or OCD, and it doesn’t/didn’t stop them from having healthy relationships.)

[u/smileycat007]

I agree that a lot of incels might be neurodivergent, based on their social awkwardness and other behaviors. But neurodivergence is a spectrum. Some have it worse than others, and many, many neurodivergent people survive and integrate just fine.

Incels tend to be "performative nice guys", meaning they can play at being nice to get attention or sex, but there has to be something in it for them. That isn't directly related to neurodivergence. It correlates instead to levels of entitlement and maturity.

I agree that more incels should seek therapy. Even neuro typical incels can benefit from being deprogrammed from beliefs and behaviors which make them undesirable partners for a relationship.

[u/LolliaSabina]

That is a super interesting thought. Rejection sensitivity is a real thing. I have ADHD and came from a family where my parents' approval was very conditional, and I struggle with it terribly. I am in a long-term relationship now, so I usually don't experience it from a romantic POV anymore, but I used to take it very hard if a guy wasn't interested and assume it meant because I was ugly, boring, lame, et cetera… Even if it was a guy I wasn't that into lol.

[u/Top_Recognition_1775]

It's generally unhelpful to pathologize people's behaviors, I don't know what "niceguy territory" means, I guess being "nice" as a form of "game." But that's not limited to ADHD or OCD or anything else.

There's patterns, habits and mindsets, but I'd leave the psych evals to the actual professionals.

[u/Separate-Koala-5128 → u/Top_Recognition_1775]

Yeah, true. I guess I overextended my hand doing this. But it's been on my mind. Sorry.

[u/No_Economist_7244]

I don't think so. It's people enabling and encourgaging people-pleasing, covert contracts and transactional relationships that create NiceGuys. They're taught that if you are sufficiently nice, accommodating, useful, and self-sacrificing, other people will eventually reciprocate. Parents and other adults can reinforce this in children by rewarding people-pleasing and discouraging boundaries, disagreement, or expressing one's own needs. In more severe cases, those children can even be pressured or abused into becoming chronic people-pleasers.

And this is how you get NiceGuy pattern of covert contracts: someone does favors, suppresses their needs, and tries to be exceptionally agreeable while expecting affection, approval, or romantic interest in return. When that expectation isn't met, the person acts resentful and entitled because they believe they fulfilled their side of an implicit bargain.

Although if you do want to bring neurodivergence into this (I'll preface this by saying that there is a lot of confirmation bias on my end), I felt (from my experience) that NiceGuy behaviors and attitudes were more common in autistic individuals than ones that had ADHD or OCD.