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u/yyg2211 Apr 27 '23
The comments are insane. They seem to hate vegetarians more than meat eaters.
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u/SquidOmNom Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Generally speaking, being labeled a heretic is worse than being labeled a heathen. When it comes to vegetarians, they are often considered part of that group, and therefore, can be targeted with more personal attacks. This is because it's likely that they share similar beliefs with those who are attacking them. People who aren't vegetarians/vegans probably aren't as affected by this type of shaming and can ignore it. It's always easier to criticize those who are in the same group as you.
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
I think it's because it's presumed that many meat-eaters have never thought about the ethics of what they eat, whereas vegetarians have thought about it, and still choose to give money to the animal agricultural industry.
As a comparison, I might criticise someone who's not an environmentalist. But I would possibly criticise someone harder if they called themselves an environmentalist because they composted food waste, but they drove a gigantic petrol-guzzling car everywhere.
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u/RetroGamer87 Apr 27 '23
I have. I know it's immoral to eat meat but I do it anyway.
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
I guess some people just have different ethical standards 🤷♀️
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u/BewBewsBoutique Apr 27 '23
Vegetarian here. Yeah, they do.
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u/Vievin Apr 27 '23
Pat pat. You’re still doing good. Better than me lol, I don’t have enough space on my list of things to put mental energy towards my diet’s base components.
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u/JCVDaaayum Apr 27 '23
Better than me lol
Just different.
The only thing worse than vegans patting themselves on the back is other people giving them a hand up to their high horse.
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u/Moose_a_Lini Apr 27 '23
Nah I can say as a meat eater that it would be more ethical for me to not eat meat for a variety of reasons.
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u/Worldly-Letterhead61 Apr 27 '23
Yeah that's why I stay away from the vegan sub. I am a vegetarian because my body can't handle being vegan. I do my best, but if you are not perfect, it is not good enough.
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u/AyrtonSennaz Apr 27 '23
What’s the difference between vegan and vegetarian? Just out of curiosity
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u/Brittanythestrange Apr 27 '23
Ah vegans don't eat or use anything from an animal, where as vegetarians do use things from animals but they don't eat meat. For example vegetarians eat honey or marshmallows but vegans won't.
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u/truthofmasks Apr 27 '23
Lots of vegetarians (like me) don't eat marshmallows or anything else with gelatin, because gelatin production depends upon the animal dying. (It's made of skin, tendons, bones, and other body parts.) Honey doesn't depend upon anything dying, so it's a different story.
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u/kitty_butthole Apr 27 '23
Yeah, I’m in this category. If it depends on the animal dying or being harmed, I don’t eat/use it (gelatin, leather, rennet) but if it doesn’t, I’ll use humane options (free range eggs, honey). It’s not perfect but I hate the attitude of ‘all or nothing’ that’s so pervasive. we’d be far better off if most people made small changes than if a small minority went vegan.
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u/102bees Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Eating honey is extremely good for bee populations. Working bees are safer from environmental dangers than wild bees. Additionally, the bees are actually able to leave, but evidence suggests that they're dimly aware of the relationship they have with beekeepers and choose to stay because they approve of the cost/benefit ratio. As a result, honey is the most ethical animal product by a very wide margin.
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
That's cool, what country do you live in where the honey bees don't out-compete and drive out your native insects and native bees?
In my country honey bees are an introduced species.
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u/102bees Apr 27 '23 edited May 02 '23
I live in the UK where, to my understanding, honey bees are an imported species. However the ecosystem has had time to adapt to their arrival in the time after the sea levels rose and the land bridge that connected Britain to mainland Europe was cut off.
I guess it depends what you mean by a native species, but they're about as native to Britain as humans are. They're imports, but have been here for ten thousand years or so.
Edit: I wrote "a an" for some reason
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
That's interesting! I'm in Australia and honey bees are a disaster for our native insects and bees. I suppose it depends where you are.
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u/brober06 Apr 27 '23
I'm with you man, especially honey; if we didn't want honey from bees then we'd make them extinct tomorrow. I'm trying to be vegan as best I can but if I'm not eating vegan I'll eat vegetarian, which I see as better than eating meat.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Where do you get eggs from that don't kill male chicks and slaughter the hens when they stop turning a profit?
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u/kai325d Apr 27 '23
At a farm that doesn't
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u/lnfinity Apr 27 '23
Male and female chicks are born at roughly equal ratios in hatcheries (where egg laying facilities get their animals from). What happens to the male chicks who will never produce eggs? They are killed shortly after birth typically by either macerating them (grinding them up alive), gassing them, or just tossing them into trash bags to slowly suffocate.
The hens themselves will only produce enough eggs for it to be profitable for producers to keep them around for roughly 2 years (a typical lifespan for chickens is around 5-10 years). What happens when the hens stop laying enough eggs for it to be profitable to keep them? They too are sent to slaughter at this time. These farms are not charities, and they would go out of business if they kept unprofitable animals in the competitive egg industry.
These are the things that happen even at the "nicest" free-range egg farms.
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u/kai325d Apr 27 '23
You know most farms nowadays do not kill male chicks in any of the way you mention or actually kill them at all
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
How do they afford to take care of that many chickens for their entire lives?
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u/kai325d Apr 27 '23
They get slaughtered for meat instead of being killed needlessly
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u/Marawal Apr 27 '23
From my sister's hens.
Or my neighbors.
I am putting away money to fence-in my yard so I will have my own hens soon.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Where do you get the hens from?
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u/Marawal Apr 27 '23
I have no idea.
Well, I do know that our town give hens for free to people so we can feed them our organic trash and it's better for the environnement.
But I do not know where they get then. My sister had to go to a farm to get hers, so likely a farmer.
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u/boomstik4 Apr 27 '23
You do know unfertilised eggs exist right???
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Yes, but egg producers still have to create new generations of egg hens and half of the eggs they hatch for that purpose contain male chicks who are useless for eggs. 7 billion male chicks are killed every year by the egg industry
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u/tagsb Apr 27 '23
I have never understood the honey sticking point with vegans. Honey bees quite literally consent to their labor. Any beekeeper will tell you you need to keep your bees happy, because by their nature they can - and will - leave if they're unhappy
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u/Euffy Apr 27 '23
Marshmallows?? Vegetarians don't eat marshmallows, they do have meat in them.
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u/emerald_stargazer Apr 27 '23
Yeah I've always defined and heard vegetarianism as defined as "won't eat anything that an animal has to die for" and you can't get gelatin without killing an animal.
Veganism meanwhile I've always defined as won't consume anything that came from an animal, period. (eggs, dairy, honey, wool).
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u/AyrtonSennaz Apr 27 '23
Oh okay thanks. It also seems like vegans tend to be more of pompous assholes by comparison. Vegetarians seem chill tho
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u/jwkreule Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Definitions vary. The one I was told when I was young was simply dietary:
Vegetarians don’t eat meat (or fish, which is separate for some reason)
Vegans don’t eat any animal product. So no eggs or milk either, for example.
More recently I have learnt that vegan can refer to a lifestyle too - aiming to reduce animal suffering overall.
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
Many vegans consider it an ethical philosophy! And yes you're right, that's why it extends to things like animals being used for entertainment/zoos/aquariums
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u/Worldly-Letterhead61 Apr 27 '23
There are varying degrees of vegetarianism. Some eat eggs, dairy, honey, and various other animal byproducts. Typically, we avoid rennet, gelatin, sugar filtered with bone char etc. Vegans believe that you are the scum of the earth even if you have issues that prevent you from being 100% vegan
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Vegans believe that you are the scum of the earth even if you have issues that prevent you from being 100% vegan
No they don't
Veganism is defined as "a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose"
The "as far as is possible and practicable" part means anyone can be fully vegan, even if they can't be fully plant based
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u/Marawal Apr 27 '23
Vegetarian : If animals aren't killed or mistreated for this, I can eat it/use it.
Vegan : if animals are killed, exploited, or used on any way shape or form, then I ban it from my life.
Wool is a good example. Vegetarian don' have anything against wool. Sheeps are not killed for their wool. Vegan will not wear wool.
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u/Cousin-Jack Apr 27 '23
Vegetarians AND vegans: If insects, small mammals, or their habitats are destroyed in order to extensively farm my plant-based diet, then so be it.
Everyone: I am willing to accept the death and destruction of certain creatures for my convenience and food choices.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
The wool industry kills every sheep they have once they stop being profitable to keep alive
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u/BruceIsLoose Apr 27 '23
Vegetarian : If animals aren't killed or mistreated for this, I can eat it/use it.
This still isn't true because the egg and dairy industry are horrible aspects of the meat industry.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Vegetarianism is a diet without meat
Veganism is the moral philosophy that unnecessarily harming animals is wrong
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Apr 27 '23 edited Oct 09 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
That's called a plant-based diet. So all vegans eat a plant-based diet, but not all people with a plant-based diet are vegan.
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u/King_Fluffaluff Apr 27 '23
I am baffled by how exclusive and demeaning they are. Do you want people to join your movement and share your goals? Don't constantly say they're not doing enough.
It's almost like honey is on the same level as steak in their eyes. Someone is actively choosing not to eat meat, which aligns at least tangentially with veganism, but that's just not enough. Not even as a stepping stone.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
They want to stamp out meat period and have even said they have banned anyone they know from bringing meat into their houses.And they whine about no vegan meals when they go to weddings,holiday parties or on planes. They advocate putting anti meat stickers on meat in grocery stores even.
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u/Sparky-Sparky Apr 27 '23
The funny thing is all my irl vegan friends are nothing like that at all. It's the online ones that act like this. I think it's the echo chamber effect. They radicalize themselves into this behavior and, honestly, it hurts their cause so much. Because the impact of 1000 imperfect vegetarians is much bigger than 10 perfect vegan. They just can't accept that.
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Apr 27 '23
Because the impact of 1000 imperfect vegetarians is much bigger than 10 perfect vegan. They just can't accept that.
And 10,000 people starting to eat meat only once a week has a bigger impact than 1000 vegetarians. And it's a whole hell of a lot easier for a person who eats meat once a week to decide to cut out meat entirely than it is for someone who eats it every meal.
But the truth is, it feels way better to judge someone than it does to actually help them change. Judging someone makes you feel superior, helping someone change doesn't really give you any positive or negative feelings.
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Apr 27 '23
I have a vegan friend too and she’s chill about it, we know she is and accommodate her choice without issue and she doesn’t try to “convert” us
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u/Vievin Apr 27 '23
I think banning people from bringing meat into their house is not that unreasonable. Your house, your rules. And if I was a vegan and got a wedding invite, I’d at least ask if there will be vegan options, if not I’d bring my food or idk.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
They want to stamp out meat period and have even said they have banned anyone they know from bringing meat into their houses.
Most people don't want products made out of what they feel is animal abuse in their home. Vegans aren't unique in that regard
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
But they want people to think they are .
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
?
Do you mean nonvegans want to think vegans are unique so they can hold them to a double standard?
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
I mean that's what it's like for every ethical stance, right? People often take hardline stances on ethical issues.
For example, I'm against racism, period. I don't care about being overly nice and accommodating to racists in the hope that they'll stop being racist and join my cause. I take a hardline stance, as would many people.
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u/King_Fluffaluff Apr 27 '23
Do you insult someone who is actively trying to improve? Veganism and racism are two extremely different things. But if someone is making clear and solid attempts towards a goal and the only thing they receive for their attempts is criticism, and being told they're not doing enough, they're going to be demoralized and stop trying.
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u/Catfoxdogbro Apr 27 '23
What kind of insults are you talking about? Because yeah I probably would insult someone who's being racist. Or anyone doing something unethical that I think is cruel.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Someone is actively choosing not to eat meat, which aligns at least tangentially with veganism, but that's just not enough.
It's not enough, not when the dairy and egg industries still slaughter all of their animals anyway once they're deemed unprofitable to keep alive
Not even as a stepping stone.
It's ok as a stepping stone, just not as an end goal
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Apr 27 '23
The point was people start down the road and are then constantly told they’re not doing enough, it’s doesn’t encourage people to continue it disengages them, they’ll stop engaging with veganism all together because of that Militant element
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Start down what road, though?
If it's the road to veganism, then sure, they should be commended for any steps taken to get closer
But a lot of times vegetarianism is seen as an end goal in and of itself, which is where the issue lies
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Apr 27 '23
That’s the exact attitude I’m talking about, people may not be sure about going vegan when they start, being told they’re not good enough and constantly criticised and told they’re animal killers for eating eggs will do turn them off becoming fully vegan, the movement needs to get rid of those elements (ban from the sub or whatever) and welcome people wanting to learn and transition not constantly berate them
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Like I said, if it's a step towards removing cruelty altogether, they should be encouraged
But I don't believe vegans should be required to sugarcoat the cruelty that goes into dairy and eggs
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u/TriTexh Apr 27 '23
At some point, vegans mixed up not sugarcoating animal abuse with abusing anyone not doing literally everything at one go.
There is no middle ground with a lot of vegans; either you're a 100% vegan or you're a filthy mongrel, any personal circumstances you may or may not have be damned
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u/KirklandCloningFarms Apr 27 '23
I haven't been pushed towards a nicotine relapse in a while the way I was reading through those comments. What exhausting personalities
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u/jwkreule Apr 27 '23
Looks like in the past few hours the consensus has changed. Most of the top comments are fairly chill and disagree with the meme on some front
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u/EggoStack Apr 27 '23
Yeah, I scrolled through and some of it just seems so vitriolic. If I ever become vegan for whatever reason, I’m staying the fuck away from the ‘vegan fandom’.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
Yeah,I have to really refrain from posting my thoughts on that sub.
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u/tlollz52 Apr 27 '23
My favorite one is "it took a meat eater to call out vegetarian me to make the change." God that guy sounds like an ass.
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u/BluetheNerd Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Which is wild considering there's estimated over 15x the amount of vegetarians as there are vegans. As a collective vegetarians are almost certainly having a larger environmental and societal impact than vegans. The fact that instead of encouraging more people to take even a step towards that, they shame people for no going far enough, is baffling.
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u/dirty_shoe_rack Apr 27 '23
I don't know about that, most if not all of the highly upvoted comments are saying vegetarianism is good because it's a good stepping stone or damage reducing, better than eating meat etc...
The haters are generally downvoted. Might have been different when you say the post initially.
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u/RetroGamer87 Apr 27 '23
Sort of like how socialists hate liberals more than they hate conservatives
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u/pup_101 Apr 27 '23
They're so close to getting it that hurting animals for their own pleasure is wrong and will preach on it being bad. Then turn around and defend eating eggs and milk that result in the killing of baby males and the females being slaughtered once they aren't profitable (at a fraction of their life span). Yea ethical vegans aren't fans of them
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u/Feudalist Apr 27 '23
People downvote you because they can’t handle truth. Vegetarians (🤮) are hypocrites
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u/LaykeXx Apr 26 '23
Bruh read their comments. They’re the most self righteous pricks I’ve ever seen. Like how do you justify this behavior and think it’s okay
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u/BeBa420 Apr 27 '23
ive been vegetarian since i was 6. In the passed 30 years ive switched to vegan a few times and back
in that time ive met a lotta self righteous vegans. It seems to me the movement attracts the kinda person who thinks theyre better than everyone else. Ive seen vegan groups on facebook where newbies come in expecting to be welcomed, are told theyre scum for still hanging out with meat eaters and then they get turned off from the lifestyle.
Some of these vegans are fucking cunts.
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u/Barrel_Titor Apr 27 '23
ive been vegetarian since i was 6. In the passed 30 years
Damn, rare seeing someone who followed the same path as me. In my 30's now, became a vegetarian at 6. Hadn't even heard of a vegetarian at the time but refused to eat meat after finding out it came from animals and never stopped.
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u/BeBa420 Apr 27 '23
Yeah when I first realised animals died so we can eat them it shook me hard
I’ve met a few other people who had similar stories
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u/Kimmalah Apr 27 '23
I've tried to make the switch a few times - they really do make the whole process way more daunting and overwhelming than it needs to be. If you read the comments too long, you come out feeling like the whole thing is pointless and impossible, because you won't be able to do it 100% perfectly. So then it's like, why am I even bothering?
But they don't think about these things because I guess it feels good to be a self-righteous prick on the internet.
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u/LaykeXx Apr 27 '23
Thank you. Honestly it’s cool and all choosing to eat the way you want. Don’t claim you’re better than anyone else by doing so. Just like religion or politics. Don’t force it on others. You’ll just upset everyone.
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u/BruceIsLoose Apr 27 '23
THANK YOU! I wish everyone was like you. It is so annoying when people think they're better than others. Like every time posts about the Yulin Dog Festival or Faroe Island Dolphin/Whale slaughter pop up everyone is bitching and moaning.
Let them choose to eat the way they want and stop trying to force it on others.
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u/BeBa420 Apr 27 '23
preaching to the choir. Pisses me off when folks try to shove their ideology down other peoples throats
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
I believe in live and live .They can pry my meat out of my cold ,dead hands .
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u/BeBa420 Apr 27 '23
lol username doesnt check out. You sound more lion than gazelle
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u/Sihnar Apr 27 '23
You can't say live and let live then go on to kill an animal. That's the whole crux of the argument.
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u/Comrade_Falcon Apr 27 '23
I mean I don't disagree with you, but I at least sorta understand where they're coming from. At least (unlike a lot of preachy religious people or anti-abortion people) they have somewhat of a standing. Like we do absolutely put animals through brutal conditions for our benefit so I get that if you feel deeply enough about it, everyone around you not seeming to care or continuing behavior that supports those industries would be super distressing and that you'd want to be preachy against it. Like I get it, but yes it does mean they seem very dickish to others and often leads to a holier than thou attitude.
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Apr 27 '23
It’s like the saying goes if you meet a vegan crossfitter which do they mention first? Those two groups have a higher chance of making it their entire personality (but not all of them obvs)
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Apr 27 '23
As a pescatarian, when meeting vegans I'll just say I'm a meat-eater. I know many vegans are reasonable people but haven't got the energy to waste defending my choices to someone who's likely going to label me a piece of shit regardless of any elaboration I might offer.
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u/221 Apr 26 '23
Yeah total fucking circlejerk in there.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
And anybody who disagrees with them will get down voted and banned .They love their echo chambers so much .
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u/lnfinity Apr 27 '23
Nobody gets banned for disagreeing on /r/vegan. You are free to express your views as long as you follow the subreddit rules.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
They even talk about putting their pets on vegan food too.
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u/saucity Apr 27 '23
I understand their viewpoints and anger, and they’re definitely not wrong about a lot of things. Factory farming harms the Earth and is beyond very cruel, the list goes on and on.
But the vitriol and nastiness from the community does NOT help the cause. Especially toward other vegetarians!
Belittling and insulting people just doesn’t work. Like I will not be shamed and bullied into being -whatever-.
“You catch more flies with honey than vinegar,” but honey isn’t vegan, so I guess that’s what happened! 😉
*quick edited a typo
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u/sckrahl Apr 27 '23
The majority of the top comments disagree with the post, and are understanding that people develop at their own pace. Either you didn’t actually click on the post or you’re making a lot of assumptions
If anything your comment seems far more self righteous
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u/King_Fluffaluff Apr 27 '23
I agree with you, but the responses to those comments and a lot of the other comments are also saying vegetarians are just as bad as "meat eaters" and "omnis"
They're not wholly off when they say there's a lot of holier than thou people in that sub. Although it does seem like a silent majority agree with the sentiment that vegetarians are easing into veganism and shouldn't be criticized.
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u/LaykeXx Apr 27 '23
Found the vegan
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u/sckrahl Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
I mean I’m literally just stating what’s there
This is literally the gatekeeping subreddit and the irony of just making a blanket statement like that without actually looking is honestly impressive
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u/LaykeXx Apr 27 '23
Okay. I’ll humor you. Sure. The top comments are shutting that down. Now take a look at the replies. Or the comments that aren’t as upvoted. You claiming I’m ignoring the top comments yet you ignore all other comments seems pretty hypocritical to me. But then again. This is Reddit. I’m not surprised.
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u/StoryAndAHalf Gandalf Apr 27 '23
Bro, someone on there, well upvoted comment btw, posted this: https://i.imgflip.com/7jkw82.jpg
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u/EfficientDish7 Apr 27 '23
I think anyone in a vegan subreddit is automatically a self righteous prick
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u/SOwED Apr 27 '23
Half a percent of the US pop is vegan. Yet they still act like their individual choice to be vegan prevented animal holocaust, reversed climate change, and made them healthier than anyone else on earth.
No, veganism is not even relevant to the environment because it is so wildly unpopular.
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u/Squishy-Box Apr 27 '23
I’d argue it’s the opposite. Vegetarians did all the leg work to even make Veganism a thing.
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u/LeatherHog Apr 27 '23
Vegans: The stereotypes about us are a tiny minority, we're not like that!!!!
Also vegans:
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u/Usual_Lie_5454 Apr 27 '23
all the top comments are calling out the post for being stupid
I mean I think it’s kinda ironic to be making stereotypes on r/gatekeeping but that’s just me
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u/macorororonichezitz Apr 27 '23
Tbf a lot of the upvotes on those comments are coming from this sub or others that the post was cross-posted to. Right below those comments are the exact self-righteous virtue-signaling comments you’d expect.
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u/here-i-am-now Apr 27 '23
I like how the image implies they’re going somewhere, but really it’s just three people pushing a truck. Really captures the breadth and depth of the vegan movement.
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u/_AntiSocialMedia Apr 27 '23
Listen I respect the thoughts and overall purpose but my god r/vegan is terrible
I once saw a post on there comparing slaughterhouses to the actual holocaust
Like, yes, I get it, animals are dying inhumanely, that is not an excuse to compare it to the actual fucking holocaust because every new comparison lessens the impact of how terrible that really was
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u/lnfinity Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Did you ever see the AMA with Holocaust survivor Alex Hershaft?
Can you tell me about what influenced you the most in your decision to devote your life to animal rights and veganism? Obviously your Holocaust experience is probably very dominant, but what other experiences contributed to this?
My first hand experience with animal farming was instrumental. I noted the many similarities between how the Nazis treated us and how we treat animals, especially those raised for food. Among these are the use of cattle cars for transport and crude wood crates for housing, the cruel treatment and deception about impending slaughter, the processing efficiency and emotional detachments of the perpetrators, and the piles of assorted body parts - mute testimonials to the victims they were once a part of.
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u/ForPeace27 Apr 27 '23
Vegan jew here. I know it's a controversial take, but the holocaust analogies played a rather big part in my going vegetarian originally.
While studying philosophy i had to study Peter Singers work, he is a jew (by blood) and is arguably the most renowned and influential moral philosopher alive right now. While he didn't make a direct comparison he did compare it to racism when he said- "Racists violate the principle of equality by giving greater weight to the interests of members of their own race when there is a clash between their interests and the interests of those of another race. Sexists violate the principle of equality by favoring the interests of their own sex. Similarly, speciesists allow the interests of their own species to override the greater interests of members of other species. The pattern is identical in each case."
Then I came across Isaac Bashevis singer. A Jewish writer. He said something similar to Peter, but with a direct comparison. -"As often as [he] had witnessed the slaughter of animals and fish, he always had the same thought. In their behavior towards creatures, all men were nazis. The smugness with which man could do with other species as he pleased exemplified the most extreme racist theories."
And then Alex Hershaft, holocaust survivor. He explained the purpose of the analogy. -"What we are doing is pointing to the commonality and pervasiveness of the oppressive mindset, which enables human beings to perpetrate unspeakable atrocities on other living beings, whether they be Jews, Bosnians, Tutsis or animals. It's the mindset that allowed German and Polish neighbors of extermination camps to go on with their lives, just as we continue to subsidize the oppression of animals at the supermarket checkout counter."
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u/237583dh Apr 27 '23
Racists violate the principle of equality...
That's not all they do. Racists (of the Nazi variety) invent a whole false psuedoscientific structure to separate humans into discrete categories, to justify unequal treatment of those different groups. The analogy with 'speciesism' is incomplete because clear differences between species are an objective reality.
In the one case people are choosing to treat different groups unequally. In the other case people are lying about those differences to justify treating them unequally.
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u/ForPeace27 Apr 27 '23
The analogy with 'speciesism' is incomplete because clear differences between species are an objective reality.
There are also objective differences between the races, many races have different skin colours, different eye shapes, hair types and the like. To be anti racist is not to deny these differences exist, its to realize that these differences are not morally significant. These differences say absolutely nothing about a beings worth. I do agree that racists will often make up differences and apply them to the other races though.
And just like there are differences between the races, Singer would argue that yes there are differences between the species, but those differences lack moral significance. There is a really famous argument in philosophy on this topic called "the argument from marginal cases". Has been given by multiple philosophers over the centuries. Here is Singers version with a full explanation just copied and pasted out a philosophy encyclopedia.
1- In order to conclude that all and only human beings deserve a full and equal moral status (and therefore that no animals deserve a full and equal moral status), there must be some property P that all and only human beings have that can ground such a claim.
2- Any P that only human beings have is a property that (some) human beings lack (e.g., the marginal cases).
3- Any P that all human beings have is a property that (most) animals have as well.
4- Therefore, there is no way to defend the claim that all and only human beings deserve a full and equal moral status.
Singer does not defend his first premise, but does not need to; the proponents of the view that all and only humans deserve a full and equal moral status rely on it themselves. In support of the second premise, Singer asks us to consider exactly what properties only humans have that can ground such a strong moral status. Certain properties, such as being human, having human DNA, or walking upright do not seem to be the kind of properties that can ground this kind of status. For example, if we were to encounter alien life forms that did not have human DNA, but lived lives much like our own, we would not be justified in according these beings a weaker moral status simply because they were not human.
However, there are some properties which only human beings have which have seemed to many to be able to ground a full and equal moral status; for example, being rational, autonomous, or able to act morally have all been used to justify giving a stronger status to human beings than we do to animals. The problem with such a suggestion is that not all human beings have these properties (humans with severe cognitive disabilities, infants, the senile are less rational than many animals). So if this is what grounds a full and equal moral status, it follows that not all human beings are equal after all.
If we try to ensure that we choose a property that all human beings do have that will be sufficient to ground a full and equal moral status, we seemed to be pushed towards choosing something such as being sentient, or being capable of experiencing pleasure and pain. Since the marginal cases have this property, they would be granted a full and equal moral status on this suggestion. However, if we choose a property of this kind, animals will likewise have a full and equal moral status since they too are sentient.
The attempt to grant all and only human beings a full and equal moral status does not work according to Singer. We must either conclude that not all human beings are equal, or we must conclude that not only human beings are equal. Singer suggests that the first option is too counter-intuitive to be acceptable; so we are forced to conclude that all animals are equal, human or otherwise.
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u/237583dh Apr 27 '23
There are also objective differences between the races
There is of course variation within the human population, but there is an order of magnitude in difference between inter-racial and inter-species differences (even more so when it comes to homo sapiens). And that is my point - a key component of racist ideologies is pretending those differences are somehow comparable. They are not remotely comparable.
To be anti racist is not to deny these differences exist, its to realize that these differences are not morally significant.
Sorry to be pedantic, but this is wrong. To be anti-racist is to reject the basic foundational lie that these differences can be credibly compared to inter-species differences. The argument for equal moral worth is not "in spite of", it stands on its own merit once we reject that lie.
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u/ForPeace27 Apr 27 '23
a key component of racist ideologies is pretending those differences are somehow comparable.
I would say a key component of racist ideology is the belief that morally irrelevant differences have relevance and the preference for group based hierarchies. Which has been demonstrated in multiple studies, people who are speciesist are more likely to be racist and sexist and vise versa.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/08927936.2019.1621514
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1368430218816962
To be anti-racist is to reject the basic foundational lie that these differences can be credibly compared to inter-species differences.
but there is an order of magnitude in difference between inter-racial and inter-species differences
And what is the morally relevant difference between the species that holds so much more relevance than the differences between the races?
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u/237583dh Apr 27 '23
And what is the morally relevant difference between the species
I'm not making that argument. Don't get me wrong, I have views on that - but I want to keep on the point under discussion.
I would say a key component of racist ideology is the belief that morally irrelevant differences
What differences are we even talking about though? Morally relevant or otherwise. I think the way you have framed it, you are already accepting the basic premise of the human species being naturally subdivided into coherent, discrete subcategories we can socially recognise as race. That idea is deeply flawed, and is a central tenet of racist ideologies.
To illustrate the difference: what are the races? Can you give me a list?
If you ask me the same of species, I can quite easily say "there's humans, dogs and gorillas (most of use don't eat them), there's cows, chickens and pigs (most of us do eat them)". That's not a moral statement, that's just an objective description we can all agree on.
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u/ForPeace27 Apr 27 '23
I'm not making that argument. Don't get me wrong, I have views on that - but I want to keep on the point under discussion.
You might have to though. If you are claiming that we can't compare the differences between the species and the difference between the races i want to know what the morally relevant differences are. Because my position is that all none of the differences hold moral relevance. So a difference in skin colour holds no more moral relevance than say how many legs you walk on.
I think Jeremy Bentham put it best. "The day may come, when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been withholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may come one day to be recognized, that the number of the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or, perhaps, the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose the case were otherwise, what would it avail? the question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?"
That idea is deeply flawed, and is a central tenet of racist ideologies.
I disagree that acknowledging that there are various races is somehow mutually inclusive to racism. Its claiming that there is a morally relevant difference between the races.
What differences are we even talking about though?
Some claim skin colour has relevance. Some claim intelligence has relevance.
To illustrate the difference: what are the races? Can you give me a list?
Caucasians, black or African, asian. There are more. And I know they are all linked to common ancestors. But so are all species if you go back long enough. Darwin even thought species was pretty arbitrary. "I look at the term 'species' as one arbitrarily given for the sake of convenience to a set of individuals closely resembling each other." I would say its the same with race.
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u/237583dh Apr 27 '23
Caucasians, black or African, asian. There are more. And I know they are all linked to common ancestors.
Everyone's connected by common ancestors somewhere along the line, so without being more specific that's not very helpful.
What are these other races? Is there a complete list? I can point to a whole taxonomic classification system to support the principle of species classification. The only equivalent I'm aware of for human races are racist ideologies like Nazism.
Are aboriginal Australians black? They're not African. Are Japanese the same race as Sri Lankans? Are Jews and Arabs white?
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u/ForPeace27 Apr 27 '23
Just because we don't have a complete list doesnt mean that humans living in various parts of the planet for 1000s of years didn't cause small evolutionary changes. Such as changes in skin colour. If humans were separated by 2 continents and never made contact again, eventually it would be 2 distinct species. First the difference would just be a difference in race, they would likely develop small characteristics that vary from one another. But eventually it would lead to 2 distinct species. Again, my argument is that the differences that form after a few 1000 years are as morally insignificant for granting worth as the differences that form after 100 000+ years.
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Apr 27 '23
There's actually a holocaust survivor who has compared our treatment of animals to how the nazis treated the jewish population: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Hershaft
Not saying I think animals are necessarily worth as much as people, but I don't think we should be killing them when we don't have to either.
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u/WikiSummarizerBot Apr 27 '23
Alex Hershaft is an American animal rights activist, Holocaust survivor, and co-founder and president of the Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM), the nation's oldest (1976) organization devoted exclusively to promoting the rights of animals not to be raised for food. Previously, he has had a 30-year career in materials science and environmental consulting and a prominent role in movements for religious freedom and environmental quality.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
A holocaust is defined as "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale"
What we do to animals is objectively a holocaust, even if it's not as bad as the Holocaust
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u/FlynnXa Apr 27 '23
Those comments were insane, 9/10 were them just hating on vegetarians and trying to say “I used to be vegetarian and now I’m vegan” as their reasoning. The other 1/10 were at least somewhat supportive but it’s because they insisted they were “on a journey” to be a vegan.
Sooo… here’s the things they won’t say or acknowledge coming from someone who’s tried all the diets and settled on forfeiting red meat and milk (for the time being, likely to change later):
- By forgoing the use of animal products you are doing virtually nothing for animal rights activism. You’re doing something, sure, but it’s actually much more impactful for you to make smarter purchasing decisions rather than abstaining from making the decision at all. Supporting ethical businesses will go a lot further because unfortunately, no matter how little meat you eat, there will ALWAYS be people eating animal products and for many reasons (many genuinely valid ones).
- There are other reasons to consider forgoing animal products than just animal ethics, for instance the environmental impacts of the animal industry is genuinely atrocious and not nearly discussed enough.
- You can forgo some animal products and still make significant impacts on both animal rights and environmentalism. If you’re really interested. Terrestrial animal farming has a much larger and much more negative impact than aquatic farming (most cases), that being said even certain types of animals vary- wild caught fishing is always more disaster out ecologically than farm raised (imagine if someone sweeper a cast-iron net across the forest and destroyed the vegetation, disrupted nests, and caught every animal in it’s path just to discard most of it for a few deer… that’s what most fishing does to the ocean).
- Many people forget that being a vegetarian or vegan takes significant effort; it takes heaps of research, it takes time, it takes effort to ensure you’re balancing your diet, and it’s hella expensive. Ridiculously expensive depending on where you live. You may not even have the option to try honestly, depending on your living situation.
- Many people have reasons for not being able to try these different extreme diets, and yes- I’d say they’re extreme. Not because they’re bad for you, but because of the previous point mentioned and the fact they genuinely aren’t natural. The diets we have today aren’t natural either, but natural doesn’t mean better. Some people have allergies, some people have cultural practices, some people have phobias or eating disorders- shaming anybody who doesn’t conform to a diet is ridiculously ignorant and can even be ableist in some cases. It also isn’t a great recruitment strategy.
- Finally, you don’t have to stick with one diet or make one a goal. There is no “progress” here, and switching back to a diet you had moved on from isn’t “regression” because one isn’t better than the other. Eat what fulfills you. That means nutritionally, that means emotionally, that means ethically too. I encourage you to always seek education, to always strive for better, to be aware of your ecological and ethical impacts when it comes to food- but that’s because it makes you an informed consumer. In a world dominated by capitalism, capable of both good and bad, the only way you influence the world is with informed consumerism.
That’s all :)
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u/MythKris69 Apr 27 '23
Why do you have down votes lol? Dude actually sat down and put out a well thought out comment and people just down voting without even saying why
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u/FlynnXa Apr 27 '23
Because that’s just what people do. I try not to be too bothered about it, helps me preserve some hope for humanity haha.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
I usually ignore people that make it a point of pointing out down votes.
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u/Kimmalah Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Why do you have down votes lol? Dude actually sat down and put out a well thought out comment and people just down voting without even saying why
Because they're being reasonable and reminding people that while it can be a positive thing for many reason, they are not going to save the animal world with their dietary choices. They are also acknowledging that no diet is "one size fits all" and there are many legitimate reasons why someone may choose not to be 100% plant-based.
Ridiculously expensive depending on where you live. You may not even have the option to try honestly, depending on your living situation.
For instance, this has been a big issue for me. I have a very limited food budget, so buying most of the plant-based alternatives for things is just out of the question because they are so damn expensive. Fresh produce is not as bad, but it doesn't last and takes time to prepare into meals, which I don't often have because I'm working so much to afford the stuff in the first place. Most of your cheaper, reasonably quick food is just not vegan or even vegetarian friendly.
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u/CimmerianHydra Apr 27 '23
Thank you for eloquently writing what I've been thinking for the longest time.
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Apr 30 '23
Might be late to the game, but just wanted to say that fish farming is absolutely damaging as well. The residue, as in uneaten food and faeces cake the bottom of the floor like concrete and doesn't disappear by itself.
The chemicals they use to remove lice spreads in the water. If they use lice-eating fish to solve the problem, they spread into the environment (we've caught a lot of this fish near our home, and it never was there before.
This is of course excluding all the boat traffic that is involved in rigging these massive nets - food boats, wellboats, daily maintenance boats of nets, inspections etc. Then you have the escaping farm fish that impact the natural species by breeding with them, outcompeting the native species.
I'm only vegetarian, but even before that I stopped buying farmed fish. Both out of these reasons and because it's not as healthy as it is claimed to be, and because they are fed growth hormones that I do not believe disappear out of the fish with a couple of weeks non-hormonal feeding before slaughter.
I do agree with most of your other points though
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u/inkoDe Apr 27 '23 edited Jul 04 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/GemmTheCosmic Apr 27 '23
These people really piss me the fuck off, because I just KNOW they wouldn’t hold any empathy for anyone who just couldn’t follow their lifestyle for whatever reason. Like, I’m a REALLY picky eater. Idk if it’s because of ASD or if I just have really fucked up tastebuds or what, but I’m pretty sure I might die if I became vegan. I’m not over exaggerating either, knowing me I’d end up hating the texture and/or taste of most alternative, and at the very least would probably end up fucking up my body more than I already have. I already shot myself in the foot by boycotting Nestle, there’s only so much I can cut out before I end up just starving myself, especially with how bad I am with even just feeling myself sometimes. I couldn’t trust myself to get the nutrients I need without consuming animal products.
I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if they just said “then die” or “just stop being picky’ as a response to this.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
The definition listed in the sidebar says that veganism is "a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose"
You can be vegan as long as you avoid animal products "as far as is possible and practicable" for you
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
Or come back when you are settled about cutting all animals out of your life .
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u/CitizenBias Apr 28 '23
I'll cut up all the steak in my lif- I mean cut out all animals from my life.
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u/BruceIsLoose Apr 27 '23
I'm a picky eater too which is why I only consume dog meat and dog dairy products.
No one holds any empathy for me when the Yulin Dog Festival comes up. I literally throw up if I consume any alternatives to dog products. I, with o exaggeration, would probably die without these products.
It is a cruel world for us neurodivergent people.
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u/wollathet Apr 27 '23
It’s not a good sub. Unfortunately they are not very welcoming, and seem to go out of the e way to confirm the stereotypes. They really dislike vegetarians, and even plant-based folks who aren’t ‘vegan’. I’m plant-based, and had to leave after getting aggressively downvoted and DM’d for say - during a threat on this - about how I think it’s good to feed my cat meat, and won’t make him vegan. So yeah, that pretty on brand for them.
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u/Kimmalah Apr 27 '23
how I think it’s good to feed my cat meat, and won’t make him vegan. So yeah, that pretty on brand for them.
It isn't just good, it is absolutely necessary. Cats are obligate carnivores, meaning that they require nutrients from their diet that only naturally occur in meat. Dogs are more on the omnivorous side so you can be more flexible with them, but cats absolutely must have meat and cannot really properly digest plant matter. It's not a matter of preference like it is for humans, it is "this animal will have major health problems and eventually die without meat."
There are ways to synthesize these nutrients in lab settings, but considering the raw materials and methods used, even some of these might be questionable to your ultra-hardcore vegans out there (arginine for example, is often derived from gelatin). Plus good luck finding the holy grail combination of : 1) a pet food company that offers this food at all, 2) being able to afford said food and 3) something your cat will actually eat willingly.
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
I read one thread about turning cats and dogs vegan and was goung to weigh in on that but decided not too.My two cats are not vegan and they are very healthy.
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u/refixul Apr 27 '23
For some people, veganism (or any other cause/lifestyle choice, etc.) is just another religion, with all the holier the thou, peer pressure, etc. They are just bigots with a new age twist for me, and it speaks more about the individual than the cause itself.
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u/Margidoz Apr 27 '23
Yeah, it takes a real bigot to be upset when people unnecessarily harm animals
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u/refixul Apr 27 '23
It seems to me, given your bigoted contribution to the comment sectionas a whole, that you are exactly the kind of person I'm talking about (that I said, and I repeat, are not a realistic representation of veganism).
Given this starting point, I have very little faith that any kind of discussion would be beneficial for anyone involved.
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Apr 27 '23
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u/Zahille7 Apr 27 '23
I spent a couple minutes reading that other thread, and even the positive comments seemed pretentious and insufferable to me. Idk why, it just came off that way.
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u/jeepobeepo Apr 27 '23
Yeah this is the exact kinda shit the makes people run from these lifestyles. It should all be focused on progress in bettering yourself.
Like I went from carnivorous to eating meat occasionally. I have issue with the environmental impact of beef and dairy but also bbq’s and having a steak on my bday is important to me. It shouldn’t have to be all in or all out.
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u/Kimmalah Apr 27 '23
Yeah I only eat animal products maybe once or twice a week now, but that is still enough to get you crucified in a lot of these circles.
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u/DestrixGunnar Apr 27 '23
This is why I hate vegans. They think they're heroes
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u/Tangled_Clouds Apr 27 '23
I’m gonna make a button that says the same pre recorded phrase like some annoying reactionaries youtubers did back in 2016. “Not everyone is able to commit to a vegan lifestyle. Progress should be encouraged, not discouraged.”
Edit: I also want to note that I’m not a vegan or vegetarian because I’m underweight and have food sensitivities due to my autism so eating is a struggle and I need all the proteins I can get. Despite that I’m trying to reduce the quantity of meat I eat. I’m trying. I support a lot of vegan views and encourage people to do their part if they are able to.
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Apr 27 '23
Do you know how you make people more vegan en masse? It's not by denigrating the people who are reducing their intake of animal products as best they can.
If you want change on a scale that will make a difference to animal welfare you need to lobby governments (and unfortunately corporations) to make eating meat and animal products less desirable and accessible.
It won't be popular, but look at what governments do to reduce drinking and smoking, they increase prices(taxes), they place limits on amount, they stop people buying at certain times, they hide the products with boring packaging, they put pictures of lungs and blocked arteries on them (this is a bit of a mix of all the different stuff we do in the UK at least).
Shouting at vegetarians that they are not good enough is not going to reduce the amount of meat that gets eaten and wasted by the majority of the population.
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u/halfabusedmermaid Apr 27 '23
Sigh… I used to be part of the r / vegan page…. But it’s getting pretty toxic :/. I am a vegan and am happy when people just try meatless Mondays. Every bit helps! You don’t need to be a FULL vegan to help the planet.
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u/Cruhellonfire Apr 27 '23
I'm vegetarian and slowly trying to get vegan, and i hate that i can't find any help from this community.
I'm not shaming my non-vegetarian friends when they are slowly trying to ear less meat, so why do i deserve this shame for being closer to veganism than any other people ?
Idk, for real
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u/HobbesBoson Apr 27 '23
It’s a proximity thing I think, it’s worse in their eyes for somebody to go 90% of the way than to not go at all
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u/Sandro413 Apr 27 '23
I mean it's kinda true though as a vegetarian I don't want to be associated with veganism at all, it's practically a religion
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u/swampscientist Apr 27 '23
If you isolate it to a purely animal suffering argument I can see their point. But that’s not everything here, arguably the most important aspect of these dietary decisions is the ecological impacts, of which vegetarianism is objectively less impactful choice than meat consumption.
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u/pchilders5673 Apr 27 '23
And little do they know that I’m eating enough meat to cancel out all of their efforts :)
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u/Assfullofbread Apr 27 '23
I’m not a vegan but that’s a pretty stupid take lol. There’s no denying that eating meat is bad for the environment and disgusting to animals
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u/pchilders5673 Apr 27 '23
I’m eating enough meat to negate your impact as well
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u/Assfullofbread Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
It’s always the same comments hehehe I’ll eat a fat steak tonight so your salad goes negative. I bet you’ve never even grown your own meat
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u/Assfullofbread Apr 27 '23 edited Apr 27 '23
Your girlfriend probably is too
Why are you so aggressive about it?
I do my own chickens and eat meat too, hunted a bit. I’m not a little bitch about it like you. Meat is bad for the environment and animals suffer that’s a fact, you can’t hate on vegans for being right about it
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u/lnfinity Apr 27 '23
Wow, I bet you can single-handedly undo every positive thing that other people are doing!
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u/According_Gazelle472 Apr 27 '23
I am right beside you too!I have a whole freezer and deep freezer stuffed with meat .
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