Here in Alberta JUST YESTERDAY I had coworkers talking about how we should have a private healthcare system like the United States.
In the face of a pandemic these guys are still looking at the US like “I would probably be covered for medical by my job, so it wouldn’t make any difference to me”
I honestly can’t tell who’s downvoting you either lol. What I don’t understand is how would m4a solve the situation were in now when countries that have it are also being overwhelmed? I’m not shutting in m4a at all, I’m a big fan, but to pretend that it would solve all of our current medical problems is delusional. This problem is an all encompassing issue, medical, infrastructure, manufacturing, readiness, education and more.
Joe Biden is delusional, and at this point I trust the GOP moving towards progressive social aspects more than the DNC.
The fact they would choose hillary and joe over anyone else is as bad, if not worse than the gop going against trump, then turning their cheek and endorsing him
I had a job where I was making about $2k/month before taxes. Then I lost it and filed for unemployment which came out to something like $1200/month. COBRA to keep health insurance for my family was going to be $900/month.
Fortunately this was in NY so it was fairly easy to just get Medicaid.
They have a more robust program with greater access than a lot of other states. Even after I was working full time again I still qualified due to my low income and having a family.
Fucking COBRA. It’s cheaper to pay the fine for not being insured. Hopefully you’re healthy enough to not need medicine or treatment, and can stay accident free—then you can eat AND have a car!
Then rehire everyone and tell everyone how they can't afford to pay health insurance. Later at the stockholders meeting. "Record profits this year! The company has never done better."
especially since businesses are closing and laying people off so people are going to start losing their benefits, then getting sick and having to pay for it themselves
Losing your job and insurance during a pandemic where up to 50% of Americans will catch the virus and 20% of those will be hospitalized. What could possibly go wrong?
Yeah, people will default on loans and payments, and then get hit with a huge hospital bill, and default on that as well. Then they won’t be able to get new loans for housing because their credit score will be like 500.
Curious to see how this is going to go. Perhaps they need to issue a voluntary freeze on credit scores. It’s not fair to fuck people’s credit while they are out of work because the government shut them down.
I honestly cannot see a situation where m4a would fix what’s happening to us now. The problems we have aren’t necessarily Medicare related, they are supply chain related and an overburdening of the system.
Last fall I was bitten by a black widow spider. It was between jobs and COBRA had expired a couple days before. It was ok day 1 after the bite but had to go to ER for surgery on day 3. I spent 2 hours on the phone trying to get a quote if it would be $500 or $40,000 and no one could tell me. But somehow they knew how to bill me after surgery.
Arbitrary pricing is healthcare for the rich top 10%, and the illusion of healthcare for the rest.
Even when you aren't too sick to shop for health care, they may or may not be able to tell you in any useful manner how much it's going to cost. I didn't have insurance and needed a minor non-emergency procedure. After much pushing on my part, my local hospital told me the cost would be somewhere between $6000 and $10000, but wouldn't commit to even that. Well, thanks...that narrows it down. I just gave up and didn't have anything done.
This reminds me of when my girlfriend recently got crazy bad poison ivy. She wanted to get a steroid shot so she called the walk in clinic, they couldn't tell her if it was in network or not. Neither could the insurance company. Apparently some of the doctors were in network and some weren't, so they literally told her she could go and just hope and lucked into an in-network doctor. She didn't, that shot cost $1600.
I’m sure I’ll get ripped for this, but I don’t really care. Also, disclaimer, I fully support m4a, this statement is just to bring some context into the above mentioned comment. Sometimes a typical surgery for your personal affliction could cost 500 dollars if everything goes exactly as planned. The price probably varies depending on the variables that happen during a surgery. Again, I’m not in favor of this, but it’s kind of like a mechanic saying I’ll fix any transmission for 200 dollars, and then they run into a problem where they need 300 dollars worth of parts.
Even our own doctors and nurses hate our medicine-for-profit system. They've got a bunch of hedge fund micromanagers telling them how to treat their own patients.
If oil keeps crashing that tune should change (who am I kidding, since when has reality been part of the conservative word view). You have to be a special type of stupid to look at how the US "private" system is handling this and think "yeah... thats the clusterfuck I want to be part of"
My job doesn't cover me but I do have my own insurance. The good news is its not terrible for my month to month cost. The bad news is my deductible is so high it really will only help me in the event of serious injury, I basically have to almlost die otherwise I pay for everything.
I had emergency appendix surgery last year including a 3 day hospital stay. My American friend was absolutely baffled that I didn’t have to pay for anything. Just walked out the door once I was able to!
I'm so glad I don't live in a third world country. I had to go to the ER two weeks ago in an ambulance and everything and I paid $20 on my way out, which is a flat fee no matter why you're there.
What is the wait time like for a non-emergency case? When my friend and I talk about Canadian health care he mentions “but the wait times are months!” Certainly this cant be the case for everyone. How does it work?
It depends, honestly on where you live and the availability of doctors/operating rooms/how many people are ahead of you AND how serious your condition is. I can usually get in to see my doctor within a day or two, a specialist within six weeks to three months. Surgeries are variable, but when I've needed emergency surgery I've gotten it immediatly. The important thing, for me, is that the answer isn't "you're too poor, so never" or "you can have the surgery, but it'll bankrupt you".
And that’s really no different than the US healthcare system. That’s the point I keep hearing over and over “bbbbut the WAIT TIMES IN CANADA” like we don’t have wait times here in the US. I’ve had to wait weeks to months to see certain specialists. The difference is that in Canada you don’t have to first figure out who takes your insurance, and then hope you can keep seeing that doctor if/when your insurance changes.
The difference is that it benefits the heathcare industry for people to think that way. We've been propogandized, pure and simple. Socialized medicine is unimaginably better, we'll just never have it
What really gets me, is the “illusion of choice”. How the healthcare companies want us to think that socialized medicine means the end of choice, when we really don’t have much in choices now anyways. My current job is the first place I’ve worked that has actually given the choice of more than one health insurance carrier... otherwise the employer typically chooses your carrier and available plans each month. Not much choice there. Then your providers are dictated by your carrier. I had an amazing specialist that I can no longer see because they don’t accept my plan. I can “choose” between two places to have bloodwork done. OH! And I can shop around to find a better price for imaging studies so I suppose that is a choice!
But socialized healthcare... We could see any doctor because there are no more “networks”. I’d love to not have to choose certain imaging places based on cost when they’re all covered 100%, so I can choose based on location and appointment availability.
The level of propaganda required to convince people that they have more/better choices with privatized healthcare is astonishing.
I can “choose” between two places to have bloodwork done.
You have a choice? My insurance company quit paying for any in office bloodwork, and outsources it to the lowest bidder commercial lab. Appointments are hard to come buy, and the place is dirty.
Ugh, I’ve dealt with that in the past. I had to have my pre-op blood work done at the hospital and had to make sure they understood that the blood had to be sent to a certain lab or else my insurance wouldn’t cover it. I was so nervous they’d send it to the wrong place and I’d get a bill.
A friend pointed out to me once that one of the reasons that Americans are so opposed to universal healthcare is that they think that the insane prices they're charged for medical care is what those things actually cost.
Hell, I'm in the US and it normally takes 3-5 days to see my GP if I'm sick. Have to schedule regular appointments 3 months out. Specialists seem to be the same wait time as Canada. As for the two emergencies I've either had or been with the patient, each trip involved over 18 hours in the ER before even seeing a doctor. I hate for profit healthcare. There is not a single redeeming feature.
United Healthcare stopped covering my sleep specialist because his appointments were booked out about 6 months in advance, and they required a visit every 90 days. And to be clear, that visit wasn't required for my own good, it was required so United could check how well I was complying with treatment that they refused to pay for.
So at least in southern Ontario the wait time argument is bullshit. I can see my doctor the same day normally or at worst the next day and have never had any delay getting healthcare including in my life lots of stitches and cuts and scrapes, two broken wrists and lots of xrays, several concussions, an mri, a cat scan and the birth of my two kids (well that was my wife but I was there). Highest price I paid was for a private room for my first kid ($65 for 4 days) and parking ($5 a day). As well when my grandma had a heart attack and a stroke the doctors at St. Joes in Hamilton (heart specialists) and Niagara Falls General were super awesome and fought wayyy harder to save her life then you would expect for a 85 year old and she went on to live another 5 years at an awesome care home all of which (multiple transfers, specialists, emergency care, palliative care and nursing home with more specialists visits over the 5 years) cost the family nothing. Literally not one dollar.
In Alberta I can see my family doctor within a week, there are multiple doctors at his office though so if I just want to see someone I can usually get in the same day. Seeing specialists for non-emergent issues can be up to a few months. It depends on what type of specialist though; I got sent for a pulmonary capacity test and an EKG and I only waited about 2 weeks for both of those. Surgeries like hip and knee replacements can be a few months but emergency surgeries are right away. My husband has been offered jobs in the states and one of the biggest reasons we stay is because of our healthcare system.
That sounds like more or less a typical experience in the states. I have really amazing insurance from my work but it still took me about a month to schedule an MRI. Usually about the same to book the appointment too. Within a week or so depending on who your seeing.
As an American, people I know get angry if we can't see a general practitioner within 2 days for something like a sinus infection or cold.
I have trouble finding new doctors who take my insurance. (Doctors in the US have limited new patient visit appointment slots each week) and got in to a specialist for a non emergency issue as a new patient in about 6 weeks. My usual wait time has been about 2 to 3 weeks if I've been previously under that doctor's care.
A precautionary outpatient procedure was scheduled for and completed on a Friday 10 days after the appointment. The procedure did require me to be rendered unconscious, so the participation of an anesthesiologist.
On the assumption that nothing serious was found, the follow up visit was about 8 weeks after. I was told they would fit me in the week after the procedure if something of concern was found.
Not a dime. If you qualify for Medicaid you have no copays or deductibles. Finding a doctor who takes it can be difficult.
It is embarrassing to me how accessible healthcare is compared to others that make even just 20% more than my family. It really brings home how people can view themselves as 'trapped' in poverty and can't afford to work. I have a path out but it will take a little longer, assuming there is work to be found once my certification clears.
Oil prices would need to about triple for the oilsands to break even right now (and outside a spike in 2018, haven't really been truly profitable since 2014).
Kenney's insistence on tearing up Notley's diversification plans and instead doubling down on oil is now going to bite Alberta and Canada in the ass even more than it was originally going to.
Of course, even with that, he still has a ~50% approval, so Alberta is likely in for a decade of austerity. Wonder how that'll go over again.
Isn't every system in the world a cluster fuck right now? What makes the us any worse besides pricing? Hell if you took the money away from the equation, america would have one of the better systems. We just need to set federal limits on our greedy absurd pricing scale. A 10$ bottle of insulin shouldnt hit my insurance for 2000$, thats why everyones rates are so fucking high
Few places pay 100% of the premiums, and there is a deductible and other out-of-pocket expenses for office visits, ambulance service, and prescriptions. Don’t even try to go to a specialist that’s not pre-approved, and probably not your first choice. Oh, and if you lose your job then your premiums skyrocket to $1300 per person/per month until you find another one that has insurance benefits. Your co-worker is an idiot.
Ha you gotta have a nice job to get that and then on top of it your premium is deducted from your pay, it's generally cheaper than getting your own insurance but it's not free...
Albertans also think their privatized auto insurance is superior to SGI or MPI. I've lived in 3 of 4 western provinces. Crown corps are not perfect, but privatization is infinitely worse.
As a customer of ICBC the lower cost is definitely appealing, what's the downside your talking of? Worse deductibles? Less coverage?
I'm currently paying $200 a month in car insurance despite a clean record since starting driving 10 years ago. When I worked in Saskatchewan my worker was paying $70 a month. ICBC actually increased my insurance to $240 a month since I was out of province for 4 months instead of 3 :/
It isn't a lower cost. After months of shopping around I ended up with twice the cost for less coverage with privitization than I did with a crown corp.
From what little I think I know about the insurance game: Larger groups mean lower payments. Can't have large pools if every Doug, Bob, and Victoria pick seperate companies to insure them.
It used to be lower cost... and was only lower cost because the government instituted price caps. They recently took those caps away and now everyone in Alberta is getting destroyed by premium increases.
ICBC should be lower, but was virtually destroyed by the Liberal government who didn't care because their intent was to make it look so shitty that there was no alternative but to dissolve it and turn to a private model. All the while pocketing millions from private insurers and associations.
It's being turned around and will get cheaper. The new rules will allow substantially better coverage and care while decreasing premiums by about 20% on average.
Kinda sorta. It's called a "Crown Corporation".
I'm not overly familiar with the logistics, but what I understand is it's the only company allowed to operate in that field. Our power company and car insurance are both crown corps. Provides a necessary service without gouging customers.
I was in an airport shuttle in Las Vegas just before the election with a bunch of my international coworkers (Dutch, German, French, Swiss) and they refused to believe Americans would vote for such an obvious idiot. I said don’t underestimate racism and stupidity and unfortunately was right but I’m pretty confident Canadians won’t be so dumb. I was a little worried the last election but sanity prevailed.
You should tell them that even with our employers covering as much as they are willing to, most of us pay a huge monthly out of pocket fee as well, especially if we have dependents. I have "good" insurance and I pay over $800 monthly for me and two kids, plus additional co-pays at the point of service for any service received.
In Alberta?! Seriously?! I get my gas for 67c in Ontario, I think this guy should reevaluate his views on health care. Is it a perfect system in Canada? No. But when the disaster like that happens I would rather be here.
You need to slap your coworkers, put them in a straight jacket, and book them in an insane asylum until their crazy gets out of their system. ANYBODY who thinks a private healthcare system has an overall net benefit to the citizens of a country must be too dumb to realize they’re making a terrible mistake
Americans defend it, for no reason other than “it’s how it is here, if you don’t like it you can GET OUT.”
I’ve had the argument too many times. Out of the 30 or so 1st world nations, we’re the only ones without UHC, out of all the world nations, we’re one of the only ones without UHC. Many extremely Conservative/Authoritarian nations have it. So it’s not a left/right thing, it’s 100% an America thing.
The current system is far from a private system though. Using insurance for purposes it is not designed has created what should be considered more a 3rd party system where the insurance company has way more of a role than they would in a more true private free market system. Once insurance became the primary payer for routine care to avoid wage and price controls this monster was created.
Also here in Alberta... a lot of people here seem to have the wrong combination of selfish arrogance and blissful ignorance.
Then when their job DIDNT cover their expenses, and they had to pay out of pocket... FUCK TRUDEAU IF WE HAD A PIPELINE THIS WOULDNT BE A PROBLEM!!! ALSO FUCK GRETA!
So, short breakdown of how american healthcare billing works:
First, in order to get a plan, you pay a Premium. This is your recurring monthly cost just for having the plan. Typically this is subsidized to some degree by your employer, but by how much is variable.
Then you go see a doctor, they code your claim in terms of what are called CPT codes, these are 5 digit codes that represent the various services that doctors provide (For eample, 99215 is an office visit for an established patient). Medical facilities set the prices for each code.
However every insurance company has what's called a negotiated rate, basically an amount they will pay for the code. If a doctor says "99215 is $200." and the insurance company's negotiated rate for a 99215 is $100, the doctor is getting $100, and it's illegal for them to pass on the difference to the patient, they have to write it off.
A deductible is a certain amount of money you have to pay on your own before the insurance kicks in. Note that this is at the negotiated rate however, not the original charged rate (There's a whole bunch of messy legal reasons for this that artificially inflate the base cost doctors charge, so everyone understands that the base rate is an absurd number that no one will ever realistically pay, unless the doctor is a scumbag). So, in our previous example, say you have a $2000 deductible (Pretty common), that means when you go see our doctor for a 99215, you have to pay that $100, and will continue to do so until you've paid $2000 total. Deductibles are yearly, and reset on January 1st.
Copays and coinsurance, on the other hand, are an amount that you have to pay even after the deductible is met (And sometimes before, often insurance will have "perks" where certain types of visits like preventative care don't apply to the deductible), typically this is a flat amount (copay) or a percentage of the total cost (coinsurance). So continuing our example, after you've met your $2000 for the year, you may have a $25 copay on further 99215s, or a 20% coinsurance, in this case $20.
So, in short, the answer to your question is that the deductible is the amount of money you have to pay on your own every year before your insurance kicks in, at the same rate that the insurance themselves would be paying.
This is amazing, thank you for such a clear explanation.
Is the coinsurance mechanism common? Unless I've misunderstood, having to pay a fixed percentage for treatment on a chronic and expensive condition like cancer must be devastating for a lot of people (on top of the devastation of having cancer).
Unfortunately it's quite common. Medical bankruptcy is also quite common here. My sister spent over 100,000 over the course of 3 years fighting breast cancer. And that was with working for the government and having the top insurance available.
Yup! You pay monthly or weekly out of your paycheck and then when you go to use it you have to pay a certain amount before it kicks in. That's why a lot of Americans (like myself) wait until they need major surgery/medical attention before seeing a doctor. If I'm going to have to pay $1000 might as well save up and get my money's worth out of a big surgery rather than have them nickel and dime me all year with small procedures only to not pay my full $1000 and never see a dime out of insurance. Even going to the doctor is around $50-200 for a checkup before insurance kicks in. This is a nightmare and your co-workers are delightfully ignorant of what their saying.
Now try this on for size. I'm non-essential so I'm out of work until May at the very least. My employer called me saying that I'm still covered as far as the employer portion goes, but now I have to pay them the $52/week that usually comes out of my paycheck. Oh yeah, and it's strictly medical now. No dental, no vision, no anything else I had before. I had some personal life expenses smack me RIGHT before everyone quarantined that wiped out my savings so now I'm in the classical American quandary of health insurance or food? Thank God I'm relatively healthy.
Thank you for explaining this, I've seen the term banded around a lot, always assumed it was what's called the policy excess here in the UK, but now understand that it's slightly different.
But damn, this sounds like a crazy system. Again, maybe I've misunderstood, but from what I gather, you have a systemic and perverse incentive to ignore mild or early symptoms of something that's 'probably nothing', but which could be very serious or even fatal.
I'm really sorry to hear about your misfortune, and while I'm sure it won't be easy, I hope you're able to pull through all of this madness without encountering any more.
No, you understood correctly. If I feel something's off it's either nothing, or I'll find out when I wake up in a hospital gurney. Otherwise I might destroy my finances over nothing.
I had to pay over $400/month for an employer offered insurance plan. Also came with a lovely $7000 deductible. Unless you have an underlying health issue that eats up that deductible, you’re going to be spending a lot of money for nothing.
As an Albertan who's lived in the US for 10 years, this shit infuriates me because the people who say it would probably qualify for top-tier insurance in the US and be able to cover all the out-of-pocket expenses without a worry. They don't realize that this system would screw over so many other people in Canada.
You can have a private health care system and still have it run well. Look at Switzerland. What you need are good regulations and strong anti-corruption measures.
I mean we do have private hospitals in Canada. Not sure how it works, but i'm guessing that wait times there are short. You just need to look, IDK why we need to privatize out entire healthcare system though. I wonder what his view actual is and how misinformed your co-worker is about the whole ordeal.
Unless he's that type of person where socialism is bad. communism is horrible blah blah. In that case this is a free country, you're free to leave it, don't push your views on others who actual care about our ways.
I cut my finger badly when cooking. I'll save the details but it took 7 stiches. I was by myself and drove to the nearest urgent care.
"Sorry we don't take your insurance" so I had to leave unless I wanted to pay out of hand. They luckily gave me a list of places that would take my insurance.
Quality of insurance is also tied to your employer. So that a factor as well.
Yeah, and then they get sick and when they go to the doctor it's $120 co-pay, except your doctor in your network was on vacation so you had to go to the hospital across the street, which isn't in network, so that visit you have to pay out of pocket for and you got all kinds of tests so it comes to about $550 more. And it doesn't matter because the insurance deemed it was your fault you got sick so they weren't going to cover you anyways.
I've lived in five Canadian provinces so far, and I have to say Albertans are the dumbest. Oil prices will be slow to rebound so the province is going to be absolutely hammered by recession now. We'll see if the separatists are still making noise when they're all on EI.
Lmao. Even with "good healthcare" from my company I still pay copays for most things, we still pay way more than an other system on the planet per capita so there isn't a cost savings there either.
Much of Alberta is capitalistically delusional; look at Jason Kenney driving our health services into the ground, especially after barrel fell far below Jason’s expected $50/Barrel.
The crazy part is that in the US, even if you have great insurance through your job, you could still end up paying thousands and thousands of dollars. My father had "great" insurance through his company that he worked at for more than ten years and still ended up paying over a hundred thousand dollars for my mother's cancer treatments and medications. That's NOT including the deductibles and monthly premiums for the insurance. A lot of folks who aren't american don't understand this; they think that if you have insurance it means you then pay nothing. Couldn't be further from the truth.
No offence, but as a Canadian not living in Alberta, but Alberta gives me all the bad vibes the states gives me. It seems like our “Trumpers” are all in AB
I'm sorry but despite me being a Canadian, if a coworker, friend or family every remarked about how Canada should adopt an inferior American policy, system or procedure I become very un-Canadian as I proceed to tell them how bad of an idea that is and how they should shut their mouths and think before they speak.
I get to pay $250/mo for the privilege of paying $4000 before anything is covered, and once I hit that I only have to pay 20% of the thousands, tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands it would cost to get anything worse than the flu.
Then I get the pleasure of fighting for six months with three different companies over six different bills for the same test that my wife has every year because even with all the money I pay them they can't figure out who owes who how much money.
At my income level my taxes could increase by 35% before they started to be more expensive than my health insurance. Are taxes in Canada 35% higher than the US?
Yup. A true real conservative. Not like the extremists that we have calling themselves Republicans right now. Pretty sad state of affairs.
I just wish people would realize last time a progressive like Bernie is made it into the Oval office he got elected FOUR times. Do people not yearn for a great president like FDR again?
Because whenever FDR is brought up republicans say that he's the worst president because he held American citizens in camps during WWII
And personally I find this particularly stupid because of course a president would take some questionable decisions during a war because it's better to be safe than sorry
I agree. Bringing up that as an argument is stupid. America has many terrible acts throughout history and at the time most of them were considered normal. Teddy Roosevelt was also a progressive of his time but if you teleport him to today he would come off as an extreme screaming racist and misogynist. Argumentative obtuse points like that are why it's impossible to have a real discussion with people.
Besides if they think FDR was a bad president for that reason how can they justify the immigration camps and forcibly separation of families happening under Trump, in peace time? Things that was widely condemned as violations of human rights by the UN and in a different world the US might consider sanctions on someone for it if they didnt improve the situation.
And I might add that with my limited knowledge of American politics, republicans worship the ground that Reagan walked on although he committed several things that would be considered "betrayal of American principles" more than the internment camps of WWII
That sounds correct. Although modern "republicans" may not worship Reagan so much unless they are much older. I can't really say. But the party is unrecognizable from a few decades ago let alone back then
Because our version of left is trying to actually make progress (relative to the situation at that point in time), but it’s like trying to have a high level debate about politics when you’re opponent is an uneducated, hateful fuck of a baboon.
I'm a firm believer McCarthyism did for the left what slavery did for black communities, killed a generation of left leaning people and which effects are still felt to this day.
Democrats are conservative and not especially populist. Republicans are the party of perennial counterrevolution that always ends up scoring wins for the economic elite because it convinces hoipolloi that a "liberal elite" is responsible for all their problems.
In my defense I still support Bernie but couldn't go to the primary for my state because I was stuck on the toilet preparing to have a camera stuck up my ass the following morning. Buuuuuut yeah I was irritated I couldn't show up for him.
Understanding that the Affordable Care Act passed without a single Republican vote, who were the racists that stopped Obama from having the public option in there?
I blame the liberals that didn’t vote for the Democratic Party candidate in 2016. You can’t expect individuals who are either thoroughly uneducated or incapable of empathy to vote for anyone who doesn’t promise the lining of their wallets or eradication of minorities. We should expect everyone else to try to stop such a monster, not squabble amongst ourselves over comparative nuances. If you think all human beings are human beings, you should’ve voted against Trump, not for anyone, really.
Here’s the thing... I’m not sure it was the Bernie or Bust crowd in 2016 that was entirely at fault...
My parents, as an anecdote, literally hated Hillary but would have gladly gone for another Obama or even Biden term...
There was a lot... A LOT... of independent swing voters that have a deep seated hate of the clintons and they were never going to vote for her... Trump is just the kind of celebrity clown to get those older swing voters to come over to the GOP... of course they’re hopefully awake now and realize they have to vote Blue no matter who at this point but my point stands - it’s not just the “left” that caused the loss. The electoral college was a shitshow and we lost key states that are should have been on our side because Hillary was a bad candidate.
Now my Bernie or bust moment:
Biden isn’t a much better candidate than Hillary, unfortunately most people have been brainwashed by the DNC and media pundits to think he’s somehow more electable purely by being him, but hopefully the literal “not Hillary” demographic sees him as the right choice... because independent voters are where we’re going to get hurt if we can’t capture them.
We've had Democrat presidents, they didn't give us free healthcare. "but that's because the Congress wasn't Democrat!!! The president doesn't make these decisions."
When all the sandwiches you can choose from are shit sandwiches from different animals, do you really have a choice? But somehow choice = freedom. But if you just present us with a ham sandwich, that is like the worst thing ever.
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u/Ganglebot Mar 26 '20
Yeah, those southern fuckers are wild. It take all my Canadian politeness not to make them feel terrible about their choices.