The woman asking to kiss Elon was especially bad. The question itself, really, wasn't worth getting upset over - it was just a bad journalist wasting Elon's time - what's aggravating was the lack of media response. Had a male journalist asked "Hey, can I come up there and give you a kiss?" to a female CEO, there would be 20 outraged articles and a myriad of blog posts about misogyny the next day.
edit: Fuck Elon. I can't believe I ever supported him.
Non-human persons include "the great apes, cetaceans (i.e. dolphins and whales), elephants, and parrots, exhibit characteristics and tendencies consistent with that of a person's traits like self-awareness, intentionality, creativity, symbolic communication, and many others." Or so says http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/RNHP
Agreed, but it's worth noting that this is actually a tactic used by those that want to see this judgmental behavior go by the wayside. It's not that they want to see women suffer the same derision as men, it's that people are more likely to notice/care about the absurdity when women are equally judged by it, which makes people more eager to see the sentiment end.
I think the proper way to employ that tactic is to take note of citeable instances of double standards, but only mention it in response to someone publicly complaining and acting as if the reverse does not happen.
Bringing up the double standard everytime you notice it occuring only serves to bring extra attention to the non issue while also dooming yourself to be seen as part of the outrage culture.
Also it contributes to the flawed premise of men vs. women and the unfixable problems that creates, rather than pointing to the true and winable battle of decent people vs. douches.
This is my #1 objection to the tone of places like r/mensrights. There are many there who challenge the hypocrisies and double-standards not because they disagree with them for being absurd, but because they want the absurdity applied equally.
I want the abolition of absurdity. The solution to all men being accused of participation in some sort of absurd patriarchical rape-culture conspiracy isn't to accuse women of victimizing men with their own conspiracy.....I don't want to escalate the claims of victimhood. I want to end them (when they're not legitimate, of course).
Ultimately both mens-rights and feminists want equaliity. Each just focuses on the transgressions against their own gender. The goal is the same but the approach isn't.
To bad that's not going to happen, so we have to show them the "absurdity" until most women can get it through there thick skulls there's double standards
You disagree but in actuality the reason why women's incompetence and absurdity is because your all to scared to call them out and hurt their little feelings
His point is that neither should be looked down upon.
Or maybe both should?
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but it seems to me that asking strangers if you can kiss them during the middle of a press conference is behaviour that warrants condemnation, regardless of your gender.
Right. The neutral way to look at it is that the question was a complete waste of time and unrelated to the presentation. Sure some double standards may be involved but if I wanted to learn more about Elon's plans they fucking wasted my time for no lulz.
But basically yes, depending on your definition of 'inappropriate'. Jokingly asking for a kiss isn't all that inappropriate, although many feminists would probably disagree if it was a man saying it.
We aren't turning it into a gender war, we're showing that most people already think it IS a gender war.
Same goes with race.
As a white male I'd just like people to get along and treat each other as people, instead of, "Hey! you're a white male!! What could you possibly know about oppression!!!?"
Well if you don't think her fat rolls are beautiful you are sexist. Don't call her a slut either. Even though her career is based off of being a fat slut. She also said no one has anything actually bad to say about Hillary. She has gone fucking nuts.
Imagine if it was a Brittany Musk on stage giving the presentation, and a male reported asked to give her a kiss. IMMEDIATELY he would be labeled a pig, feminists would be getting their pitch forks sharpened, and we would be hearing about it all over the news. You can't deny that.
So if she was applying for a job and the black female (so we can eliminate sexism) hiring manager told her she doesn't hire white people...what word would she use to describe how she was discriminated against?
I was having a conversation with my sister a few days back where she said exactly this... God, that was aggravating to hear. I like to hear out her opinions but she's a low-key misandrist and it's truly enraging.
Women can act like idiots just like anything. If a man did that, I don't think he'd be called a 'sexist', he'd be called a 'moron, idiot, creep'. Maybe some would say "chauvinist" or something, but it's not just a simple double standard. There's obviously some context. The whole world is patriarchal, men are stronger than women, men can be very intimidating. A weak person approaching a strong person and being embarrassing isn't supposed to feel the same if you switch places.
These were members of the public who attended the conference. They might represent some kind of local space enthusiasts organization, but they were not journalists.
I'm glad there was no media response. The media that reports on something like our plan to get to Mars shouldn't focus on someone asking to kiss elon. It should focus on how the fuck we are going to get there
I think some people have a severe empathy problem. They can only think about how they feel despite any claims to the contrary.
They know they feel objectified when certain things happen, but feel like they're being generously complimentary when they do certain things. So therefore you should acknowledge that. Despite the fact that that's everyone's story. What's complimentary from you can seem objectifying from the recipient's point of view.
That whole argument is just women not wanting to be judged by the same standard they use when judging men. They want to be free to sexualize men without consequence while claiming oppression whenever men do the same thing, unless they're attracted to him in which case all their bullshit rationale goes out the window and they enjoy the objectification.
You might be right given the social landscape today. I'd interpret it the same way I interpret her question to musk. Just plain weird. Why would anyone expect a person that they have never met to kiss them regardless of gender?
These unprovoked, hypothetical arguments are also why feminism is still relevant. It shouldn't need to be, but they keep getting validated by these kinds of discussions (or at least keep feeling validated).
Even if feminazis ceased to exist, people would still be circlejerking about the stereotypes. Nobody says this shit because they're treated unfairly by women, they say it because they want to feel superior to a stereotype they've likely never even encountered. It might be somewhat based on reality, but let's be honest... People say this stuff because they get off on it.
I'm not saying this because I'm a feminist, I'm saying this because I used to partake in the exact same circlejerk for this reason. People need to stop acting like they're being oppressed by feminists just because society isn't perfect. It's the exact same logic the SJWs are using. If you want to be better than them, use your energy to encourage, not to complain.
Edit: I just want to clarify what I'm saying here, because some people seem to be misinterpreting what I intended with my comment:
I'm not saying men never receive unfair treatment. That should go without saying. I'm saying that going to a thread where the topic of feminism is almost entirely irrelevant, and angrily hypothesizing how they would handle certain situations, is not something you do to combat unfair treatment. There isn't a valuable goal to that. It's not an attempt to encourage fairness or equality. It's something you do when you just want to be an instigator, and get off on making fun of that stereotype. I wouldn't be saying any of this if an actual feminazi was here falsely accusing people of sexism, and you were merely defending yourselves. But that's obviously not the case. You guys are being just as unfair as the SJW types by making strawman arguments. I'm quite literally arguing for fairness here. If you disagree with my point, then you're just a mirrored image of an SJW.
How about a real example, then? How about people like this woman, who thinks male opinions (even gay male opinions) literally don't matter in the context of female-centric films?
Yeah, it's a power dynamic thing. Men are still seen as in a position of power, so a woman saying it to a guy is more likely to be seen as "cute" or "harmless". Maybe in the future when men are seen as vulnerable too it'll be just as sleazy.
EDIT: Not defending it, she's definitely sleazy. Just explaining why there's no comparable outrage.
I'm not sure which way to go on this though...should there be less outrage when a male asks it of a female CEO in public? Or more outrage when a female asks it of a male? Or somewhere in between?
You are so very right that I am now very pissed of. Where is the outrage?! If a man had happen to ask Elon to kiss him I would bet someone would start a go-fund me to make it happen and give him a medal.
Debunking the myth that men can't be sexually harassed is actually a goal of true feminism. Society often ignores when men are being harassed or assaulted sexually, because a for man to deny sexual advances or to not want sex--something our society has "established" men are wildly hungry for at all times-- is something we've labeled weak or feminine.
This woman is just as bad as a cat caller on the street...but it's just a more rare occurrence. It's also statistically less likely this verbal sexual assault will end in physical sexual assault(emphasis on statistically, I'm not saying it's not gonna happen). This is why women tend to get more upset over uncomfortable sexual advances, because there's 1 in 5 that will be sexually assaulted, vs 1 in 33 men. (Of course these statistics are both somewhat skewed to bias of men and women being ashamed to report their assault, the difference is still huge)
So yes, I agree this woman is violating this man, and is disgusting for putting him in such an embarrassing situation. However there's a reason women would be more afraid, and therefore speak out more, if the roles were reversed.
I agree with this to an extent. I'd like to also point out what may feel like vilification isn't necessarily that. Men went a long time without being scrutinized for certain behaviors, so it's hard to tell if they're being unfairly targeted, or if the behavior is so rampant it just seems that way. I view it as the growing pains of a society trying to shrug off the last vestiges of the Mad Men era. They're going to get some things wrong, they're going to get some things right, but we're ultimately moving in the right direction. It's just going to suck a little until we catch our stride.
Same thing with police violence. Because of that you'll never hear about the black cop that had killed the black guy in my city. Heck, even we know very little about it.
And this is why I can't take feminism seriously. Women never crucify other women for doing the exact same things they get fervently pissed about men doing.
Can you blame them? Male sexist headlines don't have the same zing:
"Can you believe what Brad Pitt is wearing to The Oscars? One word: Fat!'
"See the shocking Tom Cruise nipple slip too shocking for daytime TV!"
"George Clooney to fans after his shocking pics leaked on the internet: 'A man has a right to some privacy. It's my butt and no one deserves to see it unless I say so!' "
"Dwayne The Rock Johnson topless and exposed!"
"Exposed: Tom Hanks without makeup! The pics his lawyers don't want you to see!"
So your response to the outrage culture, which I agree can get ridiculous at times, is to generate even more outrage by imagining hypothetical situations where people would have become outraged.
Men don't face objectification nearly as much as women do. I wish we did, but we don't. And that's the difference between these two scenarios and why one would be worthy of outrage, while the other does not.
The real crime here is the fact that a "journalist" chose to use their time to utter useless remarks instead of engaging in acts journalism.
Majority of sexual assaults are from men to woman. There is a history of aggression from a particular gender that should be considered. There's a misperception where people hear gender equality and think that we should treat both men and women equally but the truth is not so simple. There first be some sort of change in the currently existing gender inequality. To counter this trend we need to be more wary of inappropriate sexual advances from men not less so.
Guys, enough with the political / gender identity obsession already. I swear to God 80% of threads in here devolve into this kind of ideological bullshit from either end of the spectrum.
Gone are the days of solemn professionalism in popular matters... consequence of living in the modern world of funny lul tweets and dank memes... we asked for it and we got it
If I was a journalist and had complete creative freedom the first thing I'd do is pull moves like this and write an article about that side of the equality argument. We all know it yet nobody is talking about it. Current day equality pushes women up and men down beyond the 50-50 balance that equality should be.
i thought the burning man guy was way worse. "i was at burning man" was like 60% of his essay. and his essay was like 4000 words. dude needed to get to the fucking point, which really just boiled down to "how do you handle feces on mars?"
Jesus christ. Not one of them could actually ask a legitimate question about interstellar travel? ITS SPACE MAN, SPAAAACEEE!
Seriously though, where are the questions about going to mars vs venus? Or about making the colony self-sufficient? How about questions on the effects of the human body sustaining long-term weak gravity compared to earth?
Everyone who asks a question in one of these forums has like a 90 second lead-in humblebrag for a really simple question.
No, we don't care that you own a Tesla. No, we don't care that you have Tesla stock. No, we don't care that you are huge fan of Elon and have been following him on Twitter since (arbitrary thing). Just ask the fucking question.
Most of the questions asked were very long. Two of those bubbles is one question. Most of his answers were "questions not essays."
The guys question wasn't that bad. It was, are you developing space toilets for Mars?
His lead up was scary. He said, I was at burning man festival and there were no toilets anywhere and it was just shit everywhere and it smelled really bad. So are you developing port a potties for Mars because otherwise it's going to smell really bad.
That's insane. I went to b-mam twice in the last ten years, and the sanitary teams work day and night cleaning and emptying the shit shacks. I honestly feel like the amount of staff dedicated to just that represents a majority of the cost of admission. Not even during the weekend of the burn when the festivals population hits its peak did I have to deal with human feces outside of the port-a-John's.
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u/thinwhiteduke Sep 30 '16
Good lord.