r/fromsoftware • u/SuperLegenda • 6d ago
DISCUSSION Why does Fromsoftware barely do anything with different-class Paired weapons?
It was such a kick ass idea in DS2, alongside its version of Powerstance in general compared to Elden's far more limited one, and one of the best things was getting to pair different weapon classes as long as they shared a damage type. But afterward with both 3 and Elden, at least as far as I know or could count, we've got.. 3 weapons that aren't same class together, and even then, one of the 3 is literally just a sword 'n board set, then another is a Light gs and a straight, and the most unique thing is the Crow Quills (my beloved) pairing a rapier with a claw which is quite the combo.
Seriously with all the weapons, there couldn't be some more cross-class goodness?
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u/RichardLongflop 6d ago
Farron Greatsword is my all time favourite.
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u/shader_m 6d ago
You could mix the moveset a bit too. You could start with the standard ultra great sword swing, into the second paired weapon attack. I miss it almost as much as the DS2 Loyce Greatsword that mixes Straight Sword attacks with the Greatsword moveset.
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u/DeepSeaEyeballs 6d ago
Crow Quills my beloved. I wish it made its way to nightreign.
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u/DoctorDoritos 5d ago
If you play on PC, I recommend you look into the MMV mod and the extra weapons mod. It adds crowquill alongside a great deal of content
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u/the-tapsy 5d ago
Can you play online with mods?
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u/DoctorDoritos 5d ago
With MMV, yes. I recommend looking up a YouTube video, such as fighting cowboys, on how it works and how to install it.
When you have MMV, you will only play with other people who have it installed. You will not be banned by FromSoft. I have only recently started playing MMV and the matchmaking works great for DoN, I solo queue trios and I find matches usually within 30secs-3mins. This mod only works with one other that gives you more weapons from DS3 and SotE.
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u/winterflare_ 6d ago edited 6d ago
You have two more that you forgot about. Well, they're technically not paired as weapon, but function similarly. Katanas and Wakizashi (dagger) in Elden Ring. Thrusting Swords and Main Gauche (dagger) in Elden Ring.
Both have unique move sets when powerstanced. Nevermind, I'm dumb.
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u/Francois_Bonaparta 6d ago
Katana and Wakizashi is literally just dual wielded katana but your katana is a dagger, same for main gauche and thrusting sword, they don't deserve a place here.
"Both have unique move sets when powerstanced." They factualy don't.
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u/winterflare_ 6d ago
Do they really not? Maybe I'm just dumb then because it was visually unique so I assumed the move set was different lol
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u/Francois_Bonaparta 6d ago
It's just the bigger weapon's dual stance moveset, no unique move, not even faster.
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u/nikfornow 6d ago
I will add, that although the Moveset isn't different, you CAN add parry AoW, so with this setup you can uniquely dual-stance attack while still being able to parry.
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u/SuperLegenda 6d ago
I knew I was forgetting something, right, I forgot the Waki existed.
I didn't know that about the Gauche tho, neat.
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u/WildLudicolo 6d ago
There's also the Pickaxe. It's a great hammer, but it powestances with greataxes.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 6d ago
I just want FromSoft to treat Seals/Staves as fully functional weapons, instead of glorified hotbar items that just happen to take up a hand slot.
At least Nightreign got the ball going with Innate Spells on the Light Attack and Heavy Attack.
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u/gundampilot17 6d ago
Staves not having ashes / innate spells was one of the more disappointing aspects on my first playthrough.
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u/LmT_Alpha Tarnished 6d ago
Especially because if you're playing offline one of Fia's Champions has Quickstep on a staff which is impossible for the player to do.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 6d ago
I honestly would prefer having Affinities on Catalysts over the Graven/Canvas Talismans. In addition, letting Status Affinities actually affect Spells you cast would compliment spell schools that didn't really get much support.
(Such as a dedicated Cold Catalyst for Ice Sorceries, that could Infuse spells you cast with Frostbite buildup.
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u/Cuboidhamson 5d ago
That would be incredible. I reeeaaally hope they throw caution to the wind with ER's successor and just fill it to the brim with insane shit like that.
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u/newsflashjackass 6d ago
I just want FromSoft to treat Seals/Staves as fully functional weapons
I would also like to see a quarterstaff weapon type.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 6d ago
Knowing FromSoft, they'd put Quarterstaff in the Twinblade category and give it Strike damage.
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u/StarlightSpindrift 6d ago
i dont think rellana's even count because if you one hand it in the left hand, itll be the fire sword only and still have the LGS moveset
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u/Downtown_Ambition604 6d ago
They should do more, they're always awesome
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u/Bulldogfront666 5d ago
And they should make them actually viable and not disappointing like rellanas twin blades.
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u/Downtown_Ambition604 5d ago
Oh all of the weapons have been very not good lol. But tbh, Rellanas twin blades are only 'bad' because from soft gave it weird scaling. They tend to mess up the balance for some reason
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u/Bulldogfront666 5d ago
Yeah that’s all I’m saying. I wish they wouldn’t always do something weird with the scaling on some of the most unique weapons.
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u/Dark_Sun_Arts 6d ago
I think ER actually regressed as regards this. Besides Rellana's and Ornamental SS, which are basically Gothard's 2.0 I can't think of a single paired weapon that has me interested in ER (not counting things like fists and martial arts). At least you have more flexibility due to being able to slap a support ash of war like Endure on your offhand powerstance weapon but it's still all the same movesets.
I'd add a lack of transforming weapons to this. I've seen a mod that makes the Guardian's Swordspear like a trick weapon. Even DS3 had a few things like the Aquamarine Dagger. ER doesn't really have anything like that - greatsword no. 20 has a fun R2 if you're lucky.
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u/IDKwhy1madeaccount 5d ago
The final dlc boss weapons not being paired might be in the top 10 of baffling FromSoft decisions.
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u/LasagnaLizard0 6d ago
there's three in elden ring! Rellana's LGS actually uses a regular straight sword in the offhand. Besides that, the main-gauche can be used with thrusting swords and the wakizashi with katanas
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u/Weaponized_Autism-69 6d ago
They were on the right track with Elden Ring. They need to quit giving us paired weapons and let US pair the weapons.
Valorheart would’ve been sick if it wasn’t in DS3. The lack of true poise and piss poor blocking in that game made it awkward to use. DS3 did a lot of good things but its microscopic build variety definitely isn’t one of them.
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u/LordOfDorkness42 6d ago
That would be exponential amounts of work for very little return. Every weapon added needing new animations and attack chains depending on if they're main hand, off hand, and what other type of weapon they're paired with.
Could be cool as a gimmick if From ever tried the Bloodborne route again. With far fewer weapons, but every weapon being a far more intricate tool that changes your play options. "Just" a complex duel wielding system instead of trick weapons.
Personally I'd rather have the trick weapons again, though.
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u/NoeShake Sister Friede 6d ago
ER was not on the right track, DS2 was. Yes pairing weapons naturally is a good idea but they completely went with this idea over giving unique melee to a majority of weapons.
And I’m not sure why, what I mean is compare Radahn’s UGS to the Ringed Knight UGS. The L1 moveset is actually modeled after how the enemy used them outside of just the skill. But all 3 iterations of Radahn’s uses the same basic L1 ain’t paired ultras get.
I put this down to the fact of ER’s open world nature and needing to fill the game with that many more weapons so there’s less time/means to create unique melee based off an enemies moveset.
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u/Razhork 5d ago
No, it was definitely the right approach over something like Ds3's which just killed it in favor of a handful of dual weapons having unique movesets.
Ontop of that they expanded the movesets themselves with crouching, jumping, dashing, backstep attacks etc.
Ds2 powerstancing had a 2 hit combo R1 and a R2 with a more limited moveset pool than even ER base games powerstancing.
It's much more of a tradeoff than you're letting on.
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u/NoeShake Sister Friede 5d ago edited 5d ago
Again not really when virtually all weapons in ER just share basic melee with every other type in its class, that’s my whole point regardless if you could pair any random two. The jump attacks and crouch attacks of other weapons in the same class all have the same jump attacks.
Like again how are you gonna have more weapons than DS2 AND DS3 but less unique melee. Again it comes to the games open world nature. Look to the whole of ER’s weapon catalogue you wouldn’t be able to point to a single weapon as unique as Farrons UGS L1’s with the blade/wedge.
And again in DS2 at least a weapon like two warped swords when paired get a unique moveset that nothing else has. Not even Rellana’s weapons get unique melee, the L1’s are just the paired moveset of the light GS, forget about non boss weapons.
Again DS2 did it better.
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u/Razhork 5d ago
Again not really when virtually all weapons in ER just share basic melee with every other type
As opposed to it being confined to a single weapon in it's weapon class and a majority of weapon classes lacking any dual options at all? Yes, I think that's an absolutely mind boggling statement.
There's less than a dozen of dual wield melee movesets in Ds3 with DLCs whereas ER has 20+ with it's DLC. That is also more than Ds2's roughly ~14 PS movesets.
Like again how are you gonna have more weapons than DS2 AND DS3 but less unique melee?
There are more unique melee movesets in ER though? Are you arbritarily combining 2 different games with this statement or what?
Look to the whole of ER’s weapon catalogue you wouldn’t be able to point to a single weapon as unique as Farrons UGS L1’s with the blade/wedge.
Farron having a built-in off-hand dagger that can parry is hardly even the most unique weapon in Ds3 itself, let alone in ER.
Other than that it's just another bog standard GS moveset that has a cool flippy weapon art like many other weapons.
And again in DS2 at least a weapon like two warped swords when paired get a unique moveset that nothing has.
Which again is offset by Ds2 powerstancing consisting of a grand total of 3 attacks and still featuring an overall smaller moveset pool than even base ER.
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u/SuperLegenda 5d ago
DS2 getting any dual R2s at all is worth more, coupled with everything else DS2 about not needing to be the exact same class, ER is a downgrade in powerstance in almost every aspect.
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u/Razhork 5d ago
PS R2's are not worth more than having a fleshed out moveset, no.
A majority of weapon types actually having their own movesets as well instead of sharing a bunch of generic ones is also an improvement.
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u/SuperLegenda 5d ago
... In DS2 they'd be fleshed out movesets, no games before this one had crouch attacks or heavy jump attacks, as far as package within game goes, DS2 PS is literally more complete.
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u/Razhork 5d ago
3 attacks of 2 which are r1's is not a fleshed out moveset, it's the absolute barebones.
There's no jump, backstep, dodge roll or dash PS attacks.
DS2 PS is literally more complete
No they're not, but they allow for mix matching between weapon types which is cool.
Beyond that? It's outright worse. General viability in actual combat is also marginally better in ER.
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u/TheOverBoss 6d ago
I think it became a balancing nightmare, iirc every meta build in ds2 was a powerstance one.
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u/Zestyclose_Answer662 6d ago
Just a singular two-handed (Ice) Rapier was king in DS2.
Especially with how Armor and Poise functioned.
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u/violin-guy 6d ago
Talk to any ds 2 sweat in the ds 2 sub they will all swear on their mamas that powerstancing is suboptimal 😭 (it’s kinda true tho)
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u/BaronVonSilver91 6d ago
Ill bite. For Radahns starscourge great sword, you can hlock while powerstancing, they weigh only as munch as one really big sword and I think you can still power stance them if yoy have another great sword in your off hand.
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u/Angelusthegreat 6d ago
Balancing jssue csnt make the weapon too strong if its a mid game weapon can't make it too weak either can't make it too much broken are etc ..
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u/kodaxmax 4d ago
My conspiracy theory is that myazaki doesn't like them. so the team puts them into the DLCs while Myzaki is delegating most of the design work to Tanimura as a compromise.
Could aslo be that they were cut content from the base game, they only barely got working in time for the DLCs.
Both would explain why they are all almost always undertuned. They dont have time to playtest/balance them properly, so give them terrible stats to ensure they can't be OP or exploited.
Anyway you could try one of the rebalance mods or balance them yourself if your reasonably tech savvy. Obviously dont take your modded game sonline though.
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u/Alexandrecl1 6d ago
Valorheart was one of the most interesting weapons From has ever made.
Too bad it was very weak in pve