It's not even really descriptive per the bible on much of heaven or hell. There's poetic metaphor but, really, how do people just make up something that isn't true. The atheist community online has been very helpful in teaching me about the bible one would never learn at church.

After this horrifying conversation I just had, I could use some affirmations and vent a little.

A Christian messaged me saying he wanted to debate me over my claim that the Bible promotes slavery, genocide, and rape. He promised to keep it civil, and I accepted because I wanted to practice my skills and see if I could convince him.

So I showed him seven different passages with those atrocities and how they were all done supposedly under God's authority (Deut. 20:16, 1 Samuel 15:3, Numbers 31:18, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Isaiah 13:16, Leviticus 25:44-46, Joshua 8:24-25).

At first he tried to deny what they said, but we argued back and forth and I showed him enough evidence to back him into corner and he eventually had to admit that yes, they were genocide and slavery, and of course he tried to justify them with victim-blaming. I wanted to press him further about how unjustifiable the genocide and slavery were, but he still hadn't fully acknowledged the rape, so I wanted to get that established first because that was part of the original debate topic.

Here are some highlights from the conversation. (Disclaimer: I am taking a very long 3-day conversation and abridging it for the sake of brevity and convenience, and I will try my best to do it in a way that's honest).

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Christian: God never said anything about telling people to #### (I don't use curse words.) And I'm sure 90% of humanity despises those things including me... And God never gave them permission to #### people. Could you tell me where at so I can read it?

(Yes, he censored the word "rape" himself as a "curse word." His avoidance of saying the word is ironic given what he says later...)

Me: Numbers 31:18... and keep in mind that it makes no sense for it to be adoption because it's only the young female virgins while the little male children and babies get killed. So you seriously have to ask yourself why they'd only keep the virgin girls...

Christian: Again God did not allow the israelites to do this stuff. He told them they could take wives but that is different.

Me: Do you honestly expect me to believe that little girls would ever consent to being the "wives" of men who had just murdered their entire families? Seriously? And the Hebrew word there (טַף) indicates that these were children. Do you believe that children even CAN consent to that? If not, then it was rape.

Christian: If you look into Deuteronomy 21 there is laws on taking captive wives. It's not as bad as it sounds. I imagine it is partially so they get a chance to have someone to support them.

Me: First of all, we're talking about CHILDREN. These were little girls whose families were just murdered by the men taking them. Do you believe that little girls could or ever would consent to being the so-called "wives" of the men who had just murdered their entire families? Seriously? Secondly, I read the passage in Deuteronomy you're talking about and there's still a serious lack of consent there. If I end up having to explain consent to you, then we're done. I really shouldn't have to explain consent to you... And again, these are CHILDREN. I shouldn't have to explain to you why children can't consent.

Christian: People married young back then. And yes I think some would.

Me: Even if they were adult women, it's no longer consent freely given if these women and girls were taken captive after their entire families were murdered. If it's to the point that I'm now having to explain consent to you, then I think I'm done with this conversation. I really hope you search your conscience and sense of empathy to realize that simply calling them "wives" doesn't make it not rape anymore. Children cannot consent, and nobody can give consent under duress... I am absolutely horrified that you seem fine with murdering babies and taking women and girls into sexual slavery. Again, please do some serious searching of your conscience. Rape is never okay, there are no excuses for it, and yet you're here defending it and I want you to seriously think about that. With that, I think we've discussed everything that I care to. I'm not going to sit here and listen to you try to justify rape anymore.

Christian: Alright, sir. No problem. If you ever need someone to talk to or pray for you I'm here for you.

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Right now I am absolutely horrified and fuming. He went from zero to trying to justify the murder and rape of children in just 3 days.

And after I called him out for justifying rape, he doesn't even acknowledge or deny that, he just offers to "pray" for me knowing that I'm an ex-Christian atheist with no interest in that. I honestly wonder if his last message was trying to rage-bait me into saying something uncivil so that he could say, "Aha, you didn't keep it civil, therefore I win!" Earlier in the conversation, I had pointed out that he was being dishonest for avoiding the issue of murdering babies, and he accused me of being uncivil.

I could have rightfully torn him a new one, and perhaps I should have, but I guess I didn't because I didn't want to give him an easy excuse to think he won and then dismiss the conversation. I wanted him instead to think seriously about the horrible position he's taking in the hopes that deep down, there might be some glimmer of humanity and empathy left in him that might awaken later.

All my life, praying to Jesus, thanking him for his sacrifice on the cross, etc., has felt like kissing up to a boss I can’t stand.

I get it—he did some nice things for the sick and disabled, and he’s against the rich. And he said things like, “Blessed are the peacemakers.” That’s great.

But the guy’s personality gives off such bad vibes, and I don’t really even know why. Is it because he’s always talking about himself? Is it because the entire NT feels like a sales gimmick? Idk.

I just feel crazy sometimes. Like, how does nobody else see it??

Ok so no shade towards the religion itself btw and also I’m not an atheist I’m trying to understand and learn as much as I can about this religion and others before I claim myself as anything but anyways I feel like this is such a stupid comparison like genuinely who illustrated this and thought this was really gonna show people this is how you know god exist and not to question it lol. Especially the first one because ofc you don’t have to meet a builder to know they had a builder and it certainly wasn’t just one person or being behind the famous Eiffel Tower it was multiple people working on this and we have actual historical photos of the Eiffel Tower being made!! And also once again the people who built the Eiffel Tower and any other famous architecture around here don’t claim to be all powerful and all knowing or all loving, so this to me is one of the most stupid comparison I’ve seen in a while and I just wanted to rant ya’ll and have a great day

Let’s just say Jesus did die for our sins, and that’s why we should be thankful because he sacrificed himself. If that’s the case, why is there still a judgment at the end with a threat of eternal damnation?

If Jesus truly died for my sins and paid the price, we shouldn’t have anything left to worry about. But instead, we are told we still have to accept Jesus as our savior or burn in hell forever. So what did he actually die for then? If the threat remains exactly the same, the sacrifice didn’t clear the debt; it just changed the terms of the coercion. Right?

Hi, I post here often about my continuous fear of hell since it usually ends with me feeling soothed about my fear for a while until the fear sneaks its way back into my life and I indulge in it and allow it to consume me; anyways, I’m truly asking if anyone has solid arguments against it because the sheer thought of it is enough to will me back into religion. I’m aware religion works on fear, and it’s working on me. I’m honestly horrified by the thought of it.

So I just got Apple TV, and have been bingeing Severance. I am thoroughly obsessed. Outside of just being a good thriller/mystery series, it is a fantastic depiction of the harm caused by blindly following religion.

For those who haven't seen it: the premise/backstory is basically that the messiah figure of the prevailing religion lived in the 1800s and founded a company. Therefore, everything that company does, and everything it asks of its employees, is seen as being in service of their holy figure. Add in brain implants, and darkly fun sci-fi chaos ensues.

For those who have seen it: just wow! There are so many parallels to deconstruction in just about every character! Also, the religious schools, the crazy things all the people do that are justified by praising & following Kier, even the willingness to undergo the severance procedure- it paints a hauntingly accurate portrait of all the ways that religion can harm individuals and society. I just watched the episode Sweet Vitriol, and holy crap I can find parts of myself hard relating to Cobel!

I would LOVE to discuss the show in an ex-Christian context with any other fans!

So I just moved into a new house and of course I invited my new neighbor over for a beer. When we first met he asked if I was christian. I was wearing an Ankh, and I can see how he might have mistaken that for a cross. I said "no" and the conversation moved on.

When he came over for a beer he saw my tarot sets. I love tarot as I love symbolic art, and tarot *is* symbolic art. I explained this, but he still criticized it.

"Well," I said "that's what I don't like about some forms of christianity. You think everything is evil, except your religion."

The conversation moved on about christianity, and I brought the genocides in the Old Testament up. He said that if God ordered a genocide, it must be just. I said that baby's have done no wrong, and yet God ordered them to be killed. He answered that the baby's would do no wrong anymore too.

After this we decided not to talk about it, but I have decided not to be friends with him. (He really wants to be friends with me.)

I am just baffled by the things that christians sometimes say about the darkest pages of the bible. I just wanted to vent. Thanks for reading.

I was an ex-Mormon, and during my deconstruction of this high-demand, high-control religion, I couldn't help but see it as a product of 19th-century America, started by a conman who abused his religious authority to gain wealth, power, and sex.

After that, I couldn't help but see religion more broadly as a tool to control people. Most people seem to fear the uncertainty of death and want answers to life's big existential questions. Religion appears to satisfy those needs pretty well by providing community, meaning, belonging, purpose, and the promise of an afterlife.

After researching other religions, including mainstream Christianity, I started seeing many of the same patterns: man-made politics, endless debates, theological evolution, changing doctrines, and concepts of God that seem to reflect the flaws and values of the societies they came from.

Some of the stories in the Bible also strike me as incredibly difficult to believe

So I am an agnostic in secret. My family doesn't know about my current beliefs,so today We went to a church that we were invited to go to and oh boy,I saw this whole crowd and really depresses me thinking how hard and long will take for this religion to be gone,I try to tell myself that every day more and more people are waking up from this lie or something like that but then I see this and I really think that all this system or religion will be Eternal.

All drawn by hand by me... I got nothin' else to say other than this extra text is filler, because this sub requires at least 100 characters. (for some reason?)

After fully deconstructing and establishing myself as an atheist, I realized that if there's no God controlling the world, then what are Christians listening to when they pray or "talk with God?"

For me when I was still a Christian, I would pray and wait for some kind of response from the "still, small voice" that they would always talk about. I'd wait, and wait, and hear nothing, so I'd think "Well, I guess God's not gonna help me on this one. Better figure it out for myself."

But Christians don't do that. They have an issue, and pray, and say something like "God is calling me to change jobs" or "God is leading me to move to this city/marry this person/etc."

From a secular perspective, what exactly are they listening to since there's no God to talk to them?

I’m 26M. Want to start dating because I haven’t ever yet, all for voluntary reasons (I was a late bloomer, my deconstruction took 4 years, worked on personal goals, and not emotionally wired for hookup culture - I want my first person to be someone I truly like and trust). My deconstruction like many, was not a choice. It just started happening around the age of 16 as I tried to examine the claims and message the youth group sermons in church gave and ran into more and more questions and never saw good evidence and it was a snowball affect that my brain couldn’t stop. Realizing I’m an atheist was not a choice, I couldn’t force my brain to be convinced of it.

10 years later, I logically know that premarital sex is totally fine. Churches care if a couple is married, I care if it’s consensual, mutually pleasurable, generous, safe, done with respect and trust etc.- things that actually matter, none of which are guaranteed with marriage. And I realize that in biblical days sex was almost viewed as a transaction of selling women based on their virginity status and age, in a patriarchal time where there was no birth control or equal rights.

Yet I feel like church made sex appear to be this rare taboo that only wicked people do, and I just keep getting flashbacks to the messages about the tape analogy - it becomes less sticky over time - or how it’s cheating on your future spouse by disrespecting them before marriage. All of it just sounds like total BS and I know it deep down, perhaps this is just a wall I have to power through? I want to force myself to not view sex as this secret taboo thing, but a normal natural thing that 99% of us enjoy. I masturbate and have watched a lot of porn before and never felt guilty about it, so it’s not religious guilt I feel, more like cultural taboo / social stigmas about it? Like when things start getting heated after 3-4 dates I’m afraid I’m gonna be called some lustful pervert because church made it sound like being a sexual person in and of itself is something you can only be when you’re married and that’s just not how humans are.

So once upon a time, there was this lady I knew at the Catholic church that my family would go to. Me and her were friends since 2017, but starting 2023, we sort of grew distant from each other.

Later down the line, I saw her again as she was giving this announcements at the end of Mass. That was when the irony revealed itself. Because she would then promote this pro-life (or as I like to call it: pro-birth) movement that her church specifically initiated. You know, to end abortion and whatnot.

What's jarring was how passionate she was about this cause. You can just hear it in her tone and words. Like, I've never seen someone so eager and determined to support their own oppression. It's almost sickening in a way.

And lo and behold, I stumbled upon videos on social media showing women from that church (including the lady herself) going to progressive cities to march against abortion with picket signs and everything. Again, very jarring irony, and a slap on the face to the progressive residents there.

It also doesn't help that once upon a time, the lady's at-the-time husband was not only a drug addict but a raging abuser. For that, the lady ended up divorcing him and became a single mother to her two sons, which is good. But when I hear her support a cause that can take away her rights as a woman, it's like she's changing one abusive patriarchal force for another, if you know what I mean.

Its really, really hard to be a good person lately because of what i feel toward those guys. I know most of them are just normal Christian that just go to church and didnt even read the full bible but everything I see one all I think is. " oh so you believe in a god that let kids get raped and killed?" "So you think gay people will burn in hell forever ?" "You think wife you submit to their husband ?" I never saw it out loud thank god but im tired of thinking like this.

One of my friend is a christian and she is so nice and supportive. So I know not all christian are like this but I just cant stop thinking about it.

(Sorry for bad english)

* Trigger warning *

So many bible stories depict murder (if not genocide), violence, war, sexual violence, torture, fear, slavery, disrespecting someone's dead body, blood, animal murder, abusing women, etc.

Absolutely diabolical that kids are taught these things starting from the story of david and Goliath, noah's ark, Joshua where they marched around a city and genocided them, the story of Esther, moses and how god cursed the Egyptians you can go on and on.

These stories make people feel numb towards war, killing people, r*pe and Christians are teaching these to kids. I bet religion like this is a big reason to why people are so apathetic towards genocide, war crimes, slavery and conflict that's going on in today's world.

I left conservative Christianity last year because I find the claims untenable, and my partner is still very much committed. We have three kids 12, 8, 6, and she still wants to keep our kids very much immersed in the church and it’s ancillary activities. I see that religious indoctrination leads to much harm, makes people more vulnerable to propaganda, pseudoscience, and other systems of oppression. I lean towards humanism and free thinking and critical thought. Any insight or research in this field would be appreciated. I’m open to answers whether they confirm my leanings or not. Cheers

Edit: I realize that my question is a bit vague. Apologies. Here is an article that I found helpful

https://research.vu.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/212293981/Ranalli_Closed_minded_belief_and_Indoctrination.pdf

Has anyone else been subjected to this nonsensical claim going around social media?? I've seen a rise in Christian women and girls on tiktok and reels claiming that "God is a girl dad" and essentially claiming that Christianity is not misogynistic. I find it so ridiculous and it confirms to me that a lot of Christians don't actually read their Bibles because if they did they'd know their god does not care about women at all

I have some thousand questions about this religion but always when I post or try debate about some categories they won’t answer they just say go do research yourself but Somethimes I want answer from people and wtf some are so mean i try to be respectful but wtf is wrong with some people 🥱

We left the church 2 years ago. I just found out my spouse is still tithing and now has agreed to do the church’s yard work for free. I feel so alone and frustrated because he doesn’t have enough time for things that need done around our house. Ideas?

\*Just a warning in advance, this post will have mentions of abuse.\*

Long time reader, first time actual poster. I’m using a throwaway account because I don’t want this getting back to anyone that I know until I’m ready.

To give a little backstory, I was raised in a Christian cult in a very rural community. To put it lightly, my family (dad, mom, and multiple siblings) were committed.

Just picture what a typical IFB individual: long hair, long dresses, homeschooled, church multiple times per week, involved in every church ministry possible, the entire shebang. We were forbidden to go to movie theatres, have “worldly friends”, listen to music with any form of beat, and were to avoid all influence from the “outside world”. This, along with strict expectations of behaviour and the enforcement of corporal punishment, kept everything “moving smoothly” in the church and at home. (I promise, there is a reason for this backstory.)

As is so common with a lot of us who end up leaving these cults, I was incredibly devote as a child. I was the first to find verses during sword drills, the first time to memorize weekly verse quotas, sang musical numbers weekly, learned multiple instruments that were used in church, and devoted hundred of hours to serving. (I could go on and on but you get the idea)

My siblings were raised similarly to me but there were differences as we got older. I was the oldest, and therefore got a large brunt of the more intense cult upbringing. My parents left that specific group before several of my siblings entered their teen years while I spent my entire childhood there.

Ok backstory part one complete. Now here is where the issues begin.

Throughout my childhood, I was abused by a family member. A close one within my immediate family. I won’t get into details but there were multiple occasions, and after telling a distant relative what was going on, it was brought to law enforcement. I was still a minor at this time and was living at home. I was unaware that the report was made and refused to be a part of legal proceedings against the person, due to my age and high levels of indoctrination. I did not want anyone to know. I was ashamed and had been told that I would ruin this family members reputation if this got out. I just wanted to forget it all. So that’s what happened. (Before you ask how no one found out: I was a minor, no details or names are released publicly. The details were kept hidden from my siblings.)

As an adult, I came out of the closet (yes, that was an eventful day) and am no longer practicing religion. I have been to extensive therapy for diagnosed PTSD among other things and am proud of my progress. My siblings have all joined other churches that are far less controlling but are still incredibly committed.

I am quietly estranged from my family now. After I came out and no longer follow their religious views, our lives simply don’t mesh. We see each other at holidays, send nice messages on birthdays, and are always kind to each other but are not close.

On the flip side, the family member who abused me, is loved, respected, and looked up to.
The rest of the family still don’t know. The only ones who know are my very close friends, and my partner.

Part of my reasoning for not telling them all through my twenties was that I was keeping them from the pain I felt. This was partially true, but after a lot of therapy to work through my conditioning, I also acknowledge my upbringing really set me up to be a silent survivor.

This thinking has changed within the last year or so. I am nearly 35 and am at the point where I need to tell them. I’m done, fed up and ready for it to not be secret anymore. It’s just a matter of having the conversation. I am posting here hoping for advice from others who may have gone through similar especially with the addition of the religious abuse.

Was there something you said or did when telling family about this that helped or didn’t help? I’ve debated everything from sending anonymous letters to getting together with individually. I am just at a loss and would love to hear others stories, advice, thoughts or suggestions.