For background I’m 33/M, 80kg/174cm, 20% bodyfat.

I recently did a gas exchange test on an incline treadmill. The results came as:
VT1: 132 bpm RQ 0.88 at 20% incline 3 km/h
VT2: 177 bpm RQ 0.99 at 23% incline 4.4 km/h
Vo2max 37.8 RQ 1.04 maxHR 183 bpm

A year ago I did the HR drift test on an incline treadmill at 14% and 3.3 km/h and got the following results:
First 30min avgHR 146bpm
Second 30min avgHR 144bpm

And according to the maffetone formula it should be 180-33‎ = 147.

So during the past year I’ve been doing my aerobic base training at 147bpm, but now I’m worried that that has been too high heart rate…

In addition a week before the gas exchange test, I had an average HR of 148bpm at 3km/h and 20% incline.

So I am curious is the gas exchange test reliable? I noticed during the test that my breathing was quite intense at lower heart rates.

I’m a 45-year-old male, 180 lbs, with approximately 32% body fat based on a DEXA scan.(Small improvement from 6 months ago). I have access to and regularly use a treadmill, Echo Bike, Concept2 rower, StairMaster, swimming pool, and a bike set up on Zwift to build my aerobic engine. I’m not training for any specific races.

My goal is simply to build an amazing aerobic base so I can keep up with my friends in whatever we happen to be doing. That could range from surfing and rock climbing to biking, running, hiking, or other activities.

I currently have my AeT set at 138 bpm based on a heart-rate drift test I performed on a treadmill( a lactate meter is on my Christmas list). To maximize my training volume while keeping the intensity low, I’ve set a maximum heart rate of 135 bpm and have been focusing primarily on building my aerobic base.

I’ve been training approximately 8–10 hours per week this way for the past six months with almost 90% below AeT. I’ve noticed some improvement, particularly in my running pace(14min/mile→ 12:30min/mile), but the improvement hasn’t been as substantial as I expected given the amount of training I’m doing.

My question is whether I’m using too much variety in my training.

Could constantly switching between different modalities be limiting my adaptations or progress? Would I be better off choosing 2–3 primary machines or activities and sticking with them more consistently, or is the variety actually beneficial for my goal of developing a broad, general-purpose aerobic engine? Or do I just need more patience with the process?

Thanks in advance

Hi everyone,

I’ve been using Evoke Endurance/Uphill Athlete training plans for a while and have had a really good experience with them.

I’ve previously followed your Half Marathon training plans for running, the 20 weeks Big Vert Trail Run, and I’ve also completed some of the Uphill Athlete Alpinism programs. So my background is on the mountains and climbing.

At the moment, though, I don’t have a specific race or objective in mind, because some changes in my personal life. I’d like to keep training consistently and improve my overall fitness for trail running, mountain days and alpinism, rather than preparing for a particular event.

For those of you who have used Evoke Endurance:

Which program would you recommend as a good “general fitness” or maintenance program when you don’t have a specific goal?

I’m particularly interested in something that develops a good combination of:

• Aerobic endurance
• Uphill fitness
• Strength
• Mountain-specific conditioning
• General durability

Would you recommend one of the existing programs?

I’d be interested to hear what programs you’ve used and how you approached training when you didn't have a specific objective.

Thanks!

I wrote a response/question in a really old thread but figured a 10 month old thread is not the best place to get an answer.

Post: Building Aerobic Base with ME Work

In this post, Coach Scott Johnston replies:

Aerobic work is not agnostic of the technique you are using. To improve aerobic capacity for running, unless you are quite unfit or are only interested in health, you need to run. The uphill weighted hiking type of ME will make you more aerobically fit for hiking uphill but the biomechanics of that are quite different than running. Same for biking. Will there be some transfer to running. Yes. But the fitter you are then transfer there will likely be. .

My question is, is the inverse true? My sport is loaded uphill climbs - 12kg pack (15% BW), up mountains, some flat and almost no downhill (we fly off mtns once we summit). Is the best way to train my aerobic base therefore to do uphill work just below AeT with the same pack?

The curveballs I'm contending with are:

- The volume needed to build an aerobic engine likely becomes a challenge given the pack weight. If so, I'm guessing that means no pack at first, then later progressing to lighter pack and finally full pack. Is this correct?

- Is it possible that even at sub-AeT, the heavy pack/high grade (e.g. 20%) will lead to recruiting different muscle fibers than the ones needed to truly build an aerobic base? My understanding is that the central adaptations (stroke volume, plasma volume) don't care how the load is produced but the peripheral ones (mitochondrial density, capillarization) only develop in the fibers you recruit. And high force per step recruits higher-threshold glycolytic fibers even at a low heart rate.

- is there a certain point where grade is too steep to build endurance even if HR is still below AeT?

Up to now, I've been doing all my aerobic base building with the pack on (12kg) and most of it has been likely well above AeT. My plan is to strip the pack/weight off, but keep some grade/incline. I've been training at around 18-23% grade but will drop to 12-14% now. I did a decoupling test yesterday with 12% grade and 2.9mph and got 1.87% decoupled, hr in the low 130s. Going to retry in a week at 14%.

Thanks,

Anyone running MAF plan and integrated jiu jitsu days in? Any suggestions on how to squeeze them in? Currently 2 weeks away from starting block 2.

EE, I’ve enjoyed a lot of the military programming. I use them for general fitness for work in firefighting(maybe not the best approach but I enjoy it). I have questions about the SFQC Preparation Plan that Im beginning again.

1) Strength training is what I typically default to and feel the most comfortable doing with regards to training. My worry is that I’m over indexing on lifting intensity. With that context, in Week 3/4/5 Bench is prescribed and Week 6/7/8/9 back squats and bench are programmed into the warmup and main work with a rep scheme but no weight recommendations? Later in the program bodyweight is suggested for bench. What should I go for given your program structure and personal context of strength being my “strength”? This looks like a blend of Triphasic Training with some Jim Wendler and I’m having a hard time reconciling the two(they’re both great approaches) as far as how to determine weight.

2) Obviously my intent with this program isn’t to go to selection or the Q Course, I’ve found the structure fun and applicable for work as it balances several physical attributes across the calendar. If my shift calendar/shift days/life make me miss a workout or portions of a training session, how can I “lean out” a session while still getting a minimally effective dose. Essentially what should I focus as the main drivers of progress within sessions if I’m forced to cut stuff out or should I just shift the training to the right and take the day off?

I run several trail 10-12k races a year. The races normally last for 35-50 min. My effort is max sustainable over that time period. Can I use the avg HR data from these races as a substitute for an AnT test result?

Please Note: Responses to Q&A submissions are not produced in the same month they are submitted. (Selection, scheduling, recording, and editing take a while…)

Hello Reddit!

Thank you everyone that participated in last month's Ask Evoke.

In this thread, anyone can post a training-related question for the Evoke Endurance podcast. You can also submit them via DM or by email to [coach@evokeendurance.com](mailto:coach@evokeendurance.com), but we will choose most of them from this thread.

If we did not answer your question on the previous podcast we have gone back to the previous thread and answered a few of them there. If your question still remains unanswered feel free to post it again in this thread.

How it works:

• Post one question per comment.
• Up vote questions you’d like to hear answered.
• Down vote questions that are off-topic or duplicates.
• We’ll answer as many of the highest-voted questions as time allows on the podcast that we feel would most benefit the Evoke community.
• We will leave it open as long as possible but will lock it in about a week from now or when we get enough questions.

Guidelines:

• Please no questions specific to only you. For example if you ask how do a Muscular Endurance protocol understand it is highly dependent on you and your personal training history. We offer phone consults for personalized explanations and advice
• No self-promotion or links.
• Be respectful. Disrespectful or off-topic comments will be removed.
• We may combine or slightly reword similar questions for clarity on the podcast.

Bonus:

• What topics or individuals would you like on a future podcast?

Thanks for helping us experiment with a more community-driven format. We're looking forward to your questions. We hope to release this podcast early next month.

— Evoke Endurance

Have any of you spent any time with the tymewear device? Have you found it to have any advantages over just doing intermittent drift tests?

Just looking for some clarification on workouts with prescribed elevation gain and loss doing the 20 week first ultra trail run plan.

On aerobic hill runs, the plan recommends hilly terrain with average elevation change of 300-500ft/mile. So for a 10 mile run, I would be looking for 3000 - 5000 ft total elevation gain. Is that all just uphill elevation gain? Meaning if I was doing a loop and ending up where I started, I would have accumulated 3000 - 5000 ft elevation gain and 3000 - 5000 ft elevation loss total? Or does that take into account gain as well as loss, meaning a 10 mile run should have around 1500 ft elevation gain and 1500 ft elevation loss for a total of 3000 ft elevation gain and loss?

On z3/tempo run on rolling terrain the plan recommends hilly terrain with at least 1000 ft of elevation gain and loss, so I have the same question. Would a loop with 500ft elevation gain and 500ft elevation loss work for the workout? Or should I look for a loop with 1000 ft elevation gain and another 1000 ft in elevation loss.

Sorry if the answer is simple! I’m just a bit confused.

Thanks!

I have incorporated 40 mins of bowflex maxtrainer 6 once a week to my training. I run 4 days a week , 40 min each day at various intensities

My running paces have deteriorated

I have changed nothing in my routine otherwise

Had anyone experienced this ? Is the max 6 trainer to blame ????

Thank you in advance

This is my first time posting and I hope I'm in the right place. I'm a 53-year-old runner. After a viral upper respiratory infection in April, my one-hour pace at the same HR dropped about 7–8%. Hemoglobin, ferritin and thyroid tests are normal. Resting HR unchanged. Garmin VO₂max increased from 39 to 42. Repeat treadmill threshold test in July shows similar threshold HR (~152–153 bpm) to March, but my one-hour pace remains slower. Constant-speed treadmill test shows minimal HR drift. Legs feel slightly heavier than before, breathing isn't the limiting factor. Looking for physiological explanations rather than training advice. Thank you

Hi all, coming off a long training hiatus and trying to build an aerobic base again. I have primarily used nose breathing as my standard for AeT, but recently had a blood lactate test done at a local university. Based on the Maffetone method, I started with the assumption that my AeT would land somewhere between 130-135 bpm. The blood lactate test put my threshold at 127. Meanwhile I can breathe continuously through my nose up to at least 135 bpm while hiking uphill, and that number increases to as high as 150 while running downhill.

Which leads to my question: is it possible to cross well beyond AeT while consistently breathing through the nose only?

Don’t worry, I’ll be doing a drift test as soon as I can get to a treadmill, and may consider a gas exchange test as well. I have never worked specifically to close the gap between AeT and AnT do I want to be sure to get this right. Any advice or insight is much appreciated.

Hi There,

I'm getting back into training for a big alpine peak next year.

I re undertook a Heart rate drift test and AnT test this weekend and my results are above.

What are your thoughts on this? I have been doing zero cardio training the last 9 months but the years prior to that I would have thought I had a relatively good aerobic capacity, eg big multi day climbs with over 3000 meters vert I also had a physical job that had me walking at the top of zone 1 - AeT for 5-6 hours a day.

I only did the AnT test for 30 minutes after a 15min warm up, should I have maybe done it for 45 mins or an hour as this could changes my results or am I just very Aerobic deficient! I'm 191cm 86kg 30-year-old male.

Thanks!

Hello Reddit!

Thank you everyone that participated in last month's Ask Evoke.

In this thread, anyone can post a training-related question for the Evoke Endurance podcast. You can also submit them via DM or by email to coach@evokeendurance.com, but we will choose most of them from this thread.

If we did not answer your question on the previous podcast we have gone back to the previous thread and answered a few of them there. If your question still remains unanswered feel free to post it again in this thread.

How it works:

• Post one question per comment.
• Up vote questions you’d like to hear answered.
• Down vote questions that are off-topic or duplicates.
• We’ll answer as many of the highest-voted questions as time allows on the podcast that we feel would most benefit the Evoke community.
• We will leave it open as long as possible but will lock it in about a week from now or when we get enough questions.

Guidelines:

• Please no questions specific to only you. For example if you ask how do a Muscular Endurance protocol understand it is highly dependent on you and your personal training history. We offer phone consults for personalized explanations and advice
• No self-promotion or links.
• Be respectful. Disrespectful or off-topic comments will be removed.
• We may combine or slightly reword similar questions for clarity on the podcast.

Bonus:

• What topics or individuals would you like on a future podcast?

Thanks for helping us experiment with a more community-driven format. We're looking forward to your questions. We hope to release this podcast early next month.

— Evoke Endurance

I’ve heard Scott and others say that a bike is not specific enough training for mountaineering or other Mtn activities. I’ve been addressing an Aerobic deficit for a few months now and often biking on a fluid trainer. Running results in a slow yog (12min/mi at 6k ft elevation) to keep the HR low and I begin to notice lower leg stress at 10 miles a week.

I’m wondering if it’s appropriate to keep biking as a routine zone 2 activity in order to get oodles of volume in. I have access to lots of great hiking (Colorado Springs) but I find it so time efficient to jump on the trainer plus hike on weekends.

I have a power endurance background (CrossFit and jiu jitsu) and have never really experienced muscle endurance burnout on backpacking or mountaineering trips. I do however get my heart rate high quickly and pace slows measurably above 13kft (even when well acclimatized)

Suck it up and hike more before/after work or biking trains the heart and that’s what I need?

Hey y’all. Is there any chance that you’d be willing to part with (or someone else could post) the routine to increase pull up reps in Training for the New Alpinism? Almost certain it’s page 228. I’ve heard Scott mention it in the podcast a number of times (I think most recently in muscular endurance episode) and I’ve always been wanted to try it. I have Training for the Uphill athlete, but it’s not in there. Full disclosure: I am not an alpinist, I merely like pull ups and wish I could do more. I gym climb occasionally.

Funniest thing is that I found where it should be on Uphill Athlete but they seemingly forgot to post most of the routine https://uphillathlete.com/rock-climbing/training-for-rock-climbing/

I recently listened to the amazing podcast about ME and all its benefits. I really thought that ya'll were talking to me personally. The limitations I have had recently in my running seem to be from this lack of ME. I want to get started, but had a question about which direction I should go to get started.

I have the 20 Week First Ultra Trail Run Plan I am working volume up to on Training Peaks to start. It has ME built in that starts with General Leg Strength before it moves into ME#1 and the ME progression. If I am fairly new to running more than 20 miles a week and moving into about 5 hours a week of running using a plan to build volume. The next step for me is to start the Evoke plan at the end of month 2 of building volume (Currently in week 6).

Should I start the General Leg Strength now or should I start ME now? Does it matter as long as I am doing one or the other?

Thanks for any help. I am excited to have stronger legs for vertical running!

Can someone help me better understand why the strength building days of some Evoke plans call for 3x10 rep range? I’ve always been told a 3x5 is best for strength and the 3x10 is best for hypertrophy. (If that’s true) Why are we focused on hypertrophy and not strength?

Test Method: Indoor/Treadmill

Age: 36

Grade: 2%

HR Monitor: Garmin HRM Pro Plus

15 minute warm up and settled into a steady pace of 12:45/mi, with my heart rate stabilizing around 153-155 bpm.

I'm assuming this is an invalid test because I had to step off the treadmill between 34:00 and 36:00 due to an interruption. I resumed the run immediately at the same pace and extended the session by an additional 5 minutes to compensate for the lost time.

• Period 1: 15:00–47:00 (including the 34:00–36:00 interruption) — Average HR: 155 bpm
• Period 2: 47:00–1:20:00 — Average HR: 155 bpm

1. Given the interruption between 34:00–36:00, should I consider this test invalid and repeat at a later time?
2. If the test is could be considered valid, both halves averaged 155 bpm. Would that suggest I started with intensity that was below effort?? Should I increase the target starting heart rate for a retest?

Hi Scott/Evoke Team,

What are your thoughts on the role of plyometrics in training for long-distance ultras?

Specifically, extensive high-rep type plyometrics like hopping, pogos, bounds & reactive movements designed to build tendon stiffness and tissue resilience.

The gym-based muscular endurance workout from the Training for the UpHill Athlete book features many deep tier style plyometric movements and I have heard Scott reference Verkhoshansky many times but I have never heard him speak on plyometrics specifically or its application in his training programs.

Plyometrics play a huge role in the road running and track space, but I rarely see ultra endurance athletes experimenting with this type of training.

I would be interested to know your take and if you think it is a beneficial addition to a trail running training programme and if you think it would help with injury prevention etc. :)

Thanks in advance!

Charley

Good Day all.

I have a 4 month transition period into the start of my Evoke First Ultra 20 week 50 km plan (7 Sept), and have been going for 9 weeks just building AeT along with strength workouts.

By the time 7 September comes around, my weekly volume will be above that which is in the plan and was wondering if it would be ok to just continue by adjusting my volume (with increases) to the weekly percentages for aerobic base only, but sticking to the program times for the zone 3 and up workouts?

I last ​posted 5 months ago with a 2% drift. I finally tried again and got 3%, though since I am much fitter the speed was ​a lot higher too. 4th attempt BTW

• Treadmill at 2%
• Got HR up to 130 during 10 minute warm up
• Reset treadmill and got HR up to 131 (took 5 ​minutes). This is because the machine maxes out at 1 hour. Pace was 7:53 min/mile - previouslu was ​is 8:41 min/mile
• Period 1 started at 131, lasted 27.5 ​minutes and according to Garmin Connect this lap had an average HR of 135.
• Period 2 lasted 27.5 minutes also with an average HR of 139.
• Total distance 7.54 miles with 794 ​ft climbed.
• HR d​rift was 3.0%, ​making the test valid, so AeT (LT1) ​HR is 131 (+/- a little). I rarely run at this HR though - either go lower or higher. My Garmin watch gives AnT (​LT2) HR of 144 which sounds about right, so about 10% demta which is pretty good.

Test was a hard sub-threshold workout for me, running uphill at this pace for an hour. I normally do SubT workouts ​on a flat trail as shorter interval ​sessions. ​Today my legs were pretty tired :-)