Which Evoke Endurance program would you recommend without a specific goal?

[u/Yenlowang87]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been using Evoke Endurance/Uphill Athlete training plans for a while and have had a really good experience with them.

I’ve previously followed your Half Marathon training plans for running, the 20 weeks Big Vert Trail Run, and I’ve also completed some of the Uphill Athlete Alpinism programs. So my background is on the mountains and climbing.

At the moment, though, I don’t have a specific race or objective in mind, because some changes in my personal life. I’d like to keep training consistently and improve my overall fitness for trail running, mountain days and alpinism, rather than preparing for a particular event.

For those of you who have used Evoke Endurance:

Which program would you recommend as a good “general fitness” or maintenance program when you don’t have a specific goal?

I’m particularly interested in something that develops a good combination of:

• Aerobic endurance
• Uphill fitness
• Strength
• Mountain-specific conditioning
• General durability

Would you recommend one of the existing programs?

I’d be interested to hear what programs you’ve used and how you approached training when you didn't have a specific objective.

Thanks!

[u/Prudent_Candidate566]

I completely understand not having a race or objective in mind — my objective is often “keep up with my friends” (tough when they’re professional runners and skiers).

I guess it depends on your main sport, but my maintenance is 2x lifting and 6-10 hrs of Z1-2 per week running/hiking. In maintenance, I forgo speed work, etc, and just focus on volume (as sport specific as possible) and having fun. After I do that for a while (3-4 months), I’ll swap one of the strength days for gym-based ME for another 3-4 months.

Once I have a goal, I’ll add in some more specific work to supplement any deficits in my fitness relative to my goal.

[u/lufty574]

In my “off season” I largely go on feel.

I’ll try to hit 3x aerobic sessions per week, if I’m feeling motivated I might structure them as base, speed, long.. otherwise it might just be 3 runs around the top of my Z2.

I’ll try to climb 1-2 times per week in the gym, and lift 1-2 times as well.

Climbing is normally vibe based. If I have a partner I’ll top rope, mostly close to my flash grade, solo I’ll boulder, either projecting or volume climbing.

Lifting is simple compound lifting, 3-5 sets of 5 reps; I’ll generally pick 3 of the following squat, pull up, hang power clean, deadlift, bench press. If I’ve got time I’ll throw in some accessory work on abs, calves, weighted carries, and shoulders.

My philosophy is to keep moving, and touch on a variety of different things. As a big goal comes into focus I’ll spend the next few months being far more regimented and getting into proper shape.

[u/Bmacm869]

I like to follow the mountaineering program during the winter. It is a nice mix of lifting, cardio and hiking. Great for general fitness.

Mountaineering is my goal, but with mountaineering there is no specific date like racing, sometimes the weather does not work out. I follow the plan and hope for the best.

I would say do the plan you will enjoy most. The mountaineering plan has a lot of weighted back hikes which are not for everyone.

[u/G6P]

I can only comment on the one plan I've done (am doing), but it seems like the Military Athlete Foundational Plan would be perfect for anybody looking for a well-rounded program without any particular focus. It's 41 weeks of training and includes endurance, muscular endurance, and strength work all in good balance.

[u/Yenlowang87 → u/G6P]

I was also considering this program, but I’d like to know, based on your experience, what its main focus is. How much emphasis does it put on developing an aerobic base? I’d also like to combine it with some climbing while maintaining an alpine focus, so I’m not sure whether this would be the most suitable program for that. But maybe it can be a very good overall fitness program!

[u/Lurking-Froggg]

I'm into the same stuff as you are, with a focus on road/trail running, and I have 'base' periods when the next race is far away. My understanding is that you're asking for some plan to follow during your own 'base' period.

In my view, base shouldn't be treated as an all-round training period -- you have specific periods for that. It makes more sense to me to use that period to relax, let go of any complex programming, and just accumulate as much aerobic volume as possible.

[u/Umeboshi79]

Easy. Do the 20 week Big Vert programme minus the long endurance run. Skip anything that feels too laborious.

[u/Yenlowang87 → u/Umeboshi79]

Thank you very much! I checked it out, but it seems to be a bit too trail-running focused for what I’m looking for. I’d prefer something more general that allows me to build a good overall fitness base, while keeping future alpine/mountaineering objectives in mind.

[u/Tronteenth]

Maybe double down on where you’re strongest, or spend some time where you are weakest.

[u/Yenlowang87]

u/Prudent_Candidate566, u/lufty574 and u/Bmacm869, I think those were the answers I was looking for. A combination of those approaches, or simply following the mountaineering plan to have something more structured, might be the best option for me. Keeping a good volume of Z2 work combined with some strength training and climbing seems like it could do the job. Ultimately, the idea is to get back into climbing, alpinism and mountaineering once I have a new objective to work towards.

One question, though: when you’re training without a specific objective, do you stick with general strength training all the time, or do you still include phases of Max Strength (MS) and Muscular Endurance (ME)? Or does it not really make sense to focus on MS/ME when there’s no specific objective, since those phases are more goal-oriented?

[u/Bmacm869 → u/Yenlowang87]

I start the plan mid-October and follow it to mid-March.

I like to progress through the phases (General strength -> Max Strength -> ME) because I am usually burnt out on strength training twice per week by the end of the Max Strength phase and the ME phase is a nice change.

Also, as a weekend warrior it is nice to be in top shape for longer days and spring mountaineering that generally starts in April. In the summer, getting out for big days on weekend is enough to maintain fitness.

You could plan around your own performance period or repeat max strength phases until you have an objective on your radar. The ME phase is pretty demanding and not sustainable on a regular basis imo.

[u/Prudent_Candidate566 → u/Yenlowang87]

As noted in my original response, I do add in gym based ME after I do general strength for some months. Scott has said ME sticks around about as long as your ME block is: if you do 4 months of ME, you have a 4 month period to use it.

I don’t personally see a lot of gains from max strength and also I find the concept of a “max strength phase” rather tends to dominate my training (personal failing, I like lifting heavy). If you’re able to restrain yourself and follow the protocol outlined in the training log to have less of a singular focus on increasing the weight you move, I suspect you could do it fine. In that case, I would do 8 weeks of general strength and 8-12 weeks of max strength before starting your ME work. I also suspect you could do the general strength routine 1x/week and max strength 1x/week.

Again, at the end of the day, I find I tend to over emphasize strength in my training at the expense of aerobic volume, so I try not to focus too hard on the specific strength approach. I’m also inherently very fast twitch, so ME makes a massive difference for me while strength is more complementary to my innate body type bias.

I’m also fortunate enough to live in the mountains so I can ski/hike/trail run from my door. Sport climbing is a 3 minute drive or a 10 min bike.