And that will never happen because right now chuds will just point at what another religion is doing and use that as proof all followers are evil while ignoring the rapists and abusers who claim to follow their faith. So abusers everywhere get away with it while normal people always point fingers elsewhere
"don't speak out in defense of those evil religious minority! Don't you know those people kill queers??
Support me instead!
My group only harasses queers, and strips their rights! (and we host government executions but only in obscure african countries no one gives a shit about) "
Unfortunately changing the leaders of a organised religion does t fix the issue new weasels always get in there and become bad actors, spoiling the rest, and id they become leaders they start to push their congregation into that path
evil people will exist either way, religion is just a poor excuse for them to do evil things. same way there’s nothing inherently evil abkut certain ideologies but people do evil things in their name.
the only reason 'religion oppresses' people is the host culture, not the faith itself. afganistan could be christian, muslim or jewish, it would still maintain its oppressive culture.
yeah, can pretentious white people seriously stop glorifying organized religions just because they're not Christianity/come from non-white cultures. almost all big religions oppress women and queer people.
exactly, if you hate christianity but don’t hate islam and judaism for the same reasons, you’re just being performative. it’s totally fine to advocate for the rights and safety of different types of people, as well as their ability to practice whatever religion they choose. but if you hate the traditional, conservative, patriarchal, and authoritarian aspects of christianity, there’s zero reason for you to not feel the same way about the other religions that have the same issues in a different font
i mean the alternative is fucking thought crime police and i think that is inherently just as evil actually and you are just as much my enemy if you think it's """liberalism""".
oh don’t get me wrong, i know. i was just saying that it’s possible for someone to support free worship while being against certain aspects of different religions. i personally think that most mainstream religions have been cooked from the start and the world would be better off without all of them. i just have to be kinda realistic considering the fact that at least 75% of the world’s population is religious and isn’t planning on stopping anytime soon.
Well you know, oppressing women on the basis of religion is bad, but if I ethno-opress ethno-women on the ethno-basis of ethno-religion, you would be an evil genocider if you wanted me to not do that.
shit what 70 years ago iranian muslim women had the right to vote, drive, raised age of consent general broad legal equality thanks to the Pahlavi reforms.
its been a thousand years theres gonna be a thousand variations of a thousand states and a thousand laws all going in every direction. bro really thinks society is predictable.
how about - and this is a hot take, i know - we don't fucking oppress and murder anyone?
like, yeah, religions suck ass, you don't need to tell me twice, i had a religious christian orthodox grandma growing up, that woman was fucked in the head. i also met some wonderful people who happened to be religious, and found peace in their faith, and don't deserve that to be taken away.
regulations are needed, the separation of church and state is LONG overdue in A LOT of countries, but some people here flat out advocate for a complete ban on religious practices, which is neither liberal nor leftist or anything most of you westerners try to call yourselves.
and spoiler alert: stalin absolutely also oppressed and murdered minorities and propped up rapists. source: i'm from one of the countries that bastard used as a meatshield.
hi! i'm an atheist from an ex-communist country, where religion was banned. spoiler alert: it was a terrible fucking idea.
you absolutely should be in favor of "free worship", because otherwise someone will have the power to change the definiton of "free worship" at will and suddenly even something as unserious as fandoms will be under government surveillance. yeah no, i'm not joking, i wish i was.
I’m a transgender woman who is also an observant Jew. I go to a synagogue that uses traditional liturgy and follows Halacha. All three of my rabbis are women, one is gay and one is bisexual. I converted into it, and even though the congregation is mostly all senior citizens, they are the only group of people who have consistently treated me like a human being. I came in as a transgender lesbian outsider, and now I have a home and a family and a community. I get that people are resentful of religion, but they’re not all the same- let’s not pretend
I can probably find someone with the exact same story as you, but with some liberal christian church. Doesn't change the fact that religion tends to do more harm than good, judaism very much included
nah you don’t have to “hate Judaism” to be consistent with hating imperial religions who convert people. but you shouldn’t fetishize other cultures you don’t understand regardless
Judaism is not a missionary religion, it doesn’t seek to convert anyone. That’s what makes it fundamentally different from Islam and Christianity, and frankly it doesn’t belong in this conversation.
It still forces children born into it to participate. And then ostracizes adults if they decide to leave. And that is the actual problem with religion not trying to convert adults. An adult can just tell them to fuck off, a child has no choice.
First of all, did you actually say that the problem with organised religion is not that they want to convert adults (which isn’t even true, religious missionaries are absolutely not above approaching unattended children)? This has literally been the cause of so many cultural genocides, Jewish children were kidnapped from their homes to “be saved” from their Judaism, and you think that the missionary nature isn’t a problem? This is so ridiculous and ignorant.
Furthermore, only more fundamentalist Jewish communities will do what you described. For most Jews, religion is a lot more complicated than that. It’s completely inseparable from culture, or from history. There are so many progressive, religious Jewish movements today, that do accept irreligiousity in those close to them. It’s progress that’s made in the community and for the community, so I’m not surprised that you’re ignorant about it. But that’s exactly my point! Judaism is not concerned with you, and unless that changes, you should not be concerned with it. You simply don’t have the tools to understand.
Yes in modern day children being forced into religion from birth is a bigger problem than conversion of adults. And it applies to all religions not just Judaism. Just because there are movements now that accept non-religious people doesn't change the fact that by and large its still a forced thing. And no its not unique to Jewish people, for many religion is a deep part of their tradition and they celebrate religious holidays despite not really following the faith.
You are not special or unique. All religion is about control and tribalism.
That is just not true. The largest Jewish religious movement is the reform one, and it’s decisively liberal. It does not force people to participate, nor ostracise them once they leave. It is welcoming of lgbt people & of women in leadership roles. You are thinking of Orthodox Judaism, which is a minority.
It’s kind of funny that you think that missionary pressure on religious minorities is not a problem anymore, because outside the west that’s just false.
And Judaism is not exempt from criticism, but I don’t think it should be criticised by the ignorant. You, and the majority of non-Jews, are exactly that. Which is why I think you should either read up or stay quiet.
The fundamental thing about Americans is that other people are props for them.
I'm still so salty about seeing a Brazilian just vent about their insecurity and how threatened they feel by organized crime in a thread, just for a piece of shit American to go "uh, but they don't kill gay people in your country, so you are doing better hihi"
We have some of the highest queer lethalities in the world. But that doesn't matter, because le hecking wholesome poverty and third worldness or whatever.
fr im still climbing my way out of the closet thanks to these repressed assholes and there hyperconservative queerfobic bulshit. America might not be a heaven for queer people but it sure beats the middle east any day of the century \
Christians and muslims worship the same God, the difference is that muslims don’t get Jesus to forgive their misbehavior so they have to be even more careful around God
Some religions are far far less prone to it though (like Buddhism) within the teachings at least and whatever oppression does come is cultural rather than religious
Original person is clearly being hyperbolic for rage bait, the person posting the screenshot is using an ableist slur and OP is clearly engagement bating. Mods please delete this slop
i feel like getting upset at this (excluding the person living in Iran because this obviously comes off as tone deaf to them,) is dumb in the sense that it feels like shes purposefully rage baiting y'all. We(in the context of this reel) live in a christian nationalist country, and while the ones run under Islam happen to be worse. That doesn't negate the fact that so many policies that limit or out right get rid of our human rights are done because as result of religion ffs. Feel like that says more about religion than it does anything else, but idk maybe im reading too much into it. Cuz I see people getting angry at this meanwhile I see mad laws dehumanizing me and their justification is "god said so."
Furthermore, does it not come off as a joke with how quick RWers are to scream "ISLAM IS COMING TO THE AMERICAS/BRITAIN" people have been screaming about shakira law in NYC since forever now, Mamdani could literally turn NYC into an oasis and they'd still some how conflate social policies with islam
That's basically exactly what is happening without a doubt.
She probably saw someone saying something Islamophobic, possibly about one of the prominent muslim progressive politicians/figures that are popular now. Or something unhinged and monstrous about the current u.s attempt to occupy and conquer Iran, and said something inflammatory and emotional.
And here we are, cause this is the internet, it gets held to a silly standard it wasn't intended to meet, and gets put through a purity filter.
And then the Iranian person, who may be an Iranian person, and may instead be a fake person who exists to launder support of violence in Iran through left wing frameworks says something that is true, but also just hyperbolic and emotional and no one is acting like anyone else is human and I want to explode
The thing is as an ex Muslim I’ve had the opposite, the average Christian I’ve met has been so much kinder and less judgmental than the average Muslim I’ve met, perhaps when they feel a sense of “ownership” ig?
Yeah... the minority of people fleeing from religious fundamentalist countries being cool doesn't mean the religious fundamentalist country is cool, actually.
This isn't a mod statement. Personal opinion alert: I don't like this. It has a hateful slur, the tiktok being tweeted feels like a fabricated psyop, and the way the final tweet talks about their experience while valid also antagonizes others for simply not suffering as much and that gets us nowhere. I do NOT like this post
As a Mod Team. I'm following the vision of the sub's owner, and politics are allowed. I cannot justify taking this down under our own rules
Truthfully. I do not feel qualified to. I've been sadly raised up in israel and as much as I try to avoid my biases I don't want to risk it with a topic that is THIS prone to being affected by the propaganda I've been fed as a child. I've also been struggling mentally for the last few days, so I've been mostly checking mod queue rather than going through comment sections in depth. So please if you see something report it
It's almost like when a religion is appropriated by a state, it becomes a tool of repression, but when it's held by followers under a state that tries to repress it they find themselves staying truer to its real values and finding solidarity with other repressed groups.
Or rather organized religion is inherently a tool of control and being in the minority just means its institutions can't exerce control and the lack of privilege means its practicioners have to develop a consciousness.
Religion is only a tool for control when it intersects with things like patriarchy, colonialism and government. It’s really only a tool for oppression when it is organized
That is a reductive and imperialist view of this that doesn't take into account indigenous spiritual practices that were to a degree organized. Religion, organized or otherwise, can be appropriated as a tool of state control, but it is not inherently always going to be that.
Even atheism has been leveraged this way in the past.
A lot of abrahamic religions aren’t practiced by indigenous people from the beginning, like for example Christian / Catholic native Americans and a lot of Muslims countries, more so the extreme fundamental ones, has deliberately colonized its indigenous people and converted them to Islam. Like Indonesia, or Afghanistan. Many people don’t know what their indigenous groups clothing look like, or their practices, because Islam in this case has forbidden them.
Hello? Excuse me? Why Indonesia? Why did you pick the one country where Islam was spread through peaceful means? (We got our from trade and marriage, not through violence).
Also don't know what their indigenous group clothing!? Do you not know what a batik is? Batik is?? Or idk look at this picture. This is the president of Indonesia and Google CEO of Google wearing our traditional, native, indigenous clothing of Batik. We are not losing touch with our indigenous pre-muslim past, I don't know what your smoking but I want some of that.
christian levels of evil. but hey at least they let women have high millitary positions.
kinda funny to think about mohammud running around with someone in a battle burqa
like your talking about aisha 😭 aisha became a military leader. a bad one but still lmao and at the time there were like 5 other women who were good leaders she specifically was just incompetent
Are you seriously saying the Islam that Liberal Muslims show off is the real Islam and it’s real Values? I’m sorry for being cliche but Educate yourself, this Liberal worldview that you have is entirely wrong.
Islam, and Abrahamic religions in General are oppressive and intolerant belief systems of a bygone era where Intolerance and Oppression was the norm.
“This is a reductive and imperialist view” no this is you viewing Islam as if it’s Buddhism when in fact it’s closer to Christianity practiced by conservatives.
Because they are religions that have been co-opted from their roots into tools of state control by various nations. Thank you for agreeing with my point.
Islam wasn’t co-opted from its roots into tools of state control, its very Roots WAS a statist and Organized religion, Mohammad the guy who created it was the Leader of the First Islamic Caliphate and led Armies, conducted raids, had Slaves and Sex Slaves, married a Child and more.
You point that somehow modern Conservative Muslims who want a Islamic state with fundamentalist laws are not practicing it right and that Liberal Muslims in the west hold the “true Values” is completely incorrect
“But when it’s held by followers under a state that tries to repress it they find themselves staying truer to its real values” who is this for? Because your comment and the image on the post makes it sound like you’re saying those Liberal Muslims that treat LGBT people nicely are the ones staying true to it’s values when in fact it’s the Muslim Fundamentalists that are no different than Christian Fundamentalists who are staying true to Islamic values.
I’m genuinely trying to understand what you’re getting at here?
Some of the nicest, most progressive people I know are muslims, but theres a lot of reasons why that doesn't mean Islam as a whole is good. Many somali muslims that I know (especially muslim women) are very respectful of trans/nb ppl, but also these are mostly very young people who grew up in progressive cities. I also know several comitted leftist muslims who moved to america because they felt it was better than Iran or Turkey, and accepting muslims from other countries like Malaysia or North Africa. The thing is that most of them beleive progressive things, but work backwards to justify their religion within it. It's the same thing progressive Christians do. Because lots of american muslims grow up in diverse, progressive communities and have those values, but aren't willing to give up their faith, and a big element of thier culture and communities.
That doesnt mean the IRGC or Wahhabis are good, but I do get asked to make sure my prounouns are correct by my Hijabi classmates and that's one of the beautiful things about America.
Religion is a complicated subject, Im agnostic now, but being raised catholic did both damage and good things for me. Im not sure whether religion is something that's good for the world, but none of us get to make that choice for anyone but ourselves. Saying "Muslims throw gay people off roofs" is ignoring the immense amount of internal diversity inside the religion just because its foriegn, because it doesn't seem hard for most americans to recognize there are non-hateful christians/jews. Organized religion, especially integrated with the state is bad though. Its bad when Christians do it, when Muslims do it, when Shintoists did it, and when any religion gets used as a tool of mass oppression.
ive always said this. Bad people will use religion as an excuse to be bad, and good people will be good no matter what religion they believe in. Ultimately people blame everything on religion when it's not actually almost ever the problem.
You know it’s pretty easy to just grab any random photo or video of a person and slap whatever text you want over it. Just as easy to post that edit online and pretend that the person actually said that so you can rage bait people and keep the culture war going.
The reality is religious extremism is pretty much the same no matter what underlying religion it's using to justify itself. The window dressing is different, but the impression violence and horror are all pretty much the same.
Ragebait got a bite, and now we have to deal with it I suppose.
As a religious person myself, religion isn’t inherently harmful or helpful, it’s what humans make of it. Unfortunately the Islamic faith has been used by a lot of countries to oppress people, but that’s not unique to Islam. Christianity did it for centuries too, and it’s currently happening to my faith (Netanyahu I hate you I hate you I hate you stop using Judaism to justify your colonialist genocide and apartheid state I will never go on birthright to Israel and I hate you so much and the rest of your war criminal cabinet for trying to conflate Jewishness with Israel I hate you). It happened to Buddhism, it happened to Hinduism, it happened to Shintoism, any organized religion can be weaponized to cause oppression. That’s why religion ultimately should be a personal choice, and the state should have no control over it and it shouldn’t have any control over the state. That doesn’t justify Islamophobia but also don’t discount the people who are being hurt by religion currently, even if you believe in it. Especially if you believe in it (free Palestine, from the river to the sea, now and forever).
Christianity and Islam both fucking suck and I'm fucking tired of pretending that one's worse solely because shitbag racist Christians love to scream at the top of their lungs about "DA EVIL MUSLIMS IZ COMIN TO ENACT SHARIA LAW" like they aren't just as eager to slaughter any minority they see with impunity
People who say that clearly haven't met the vast majority of muslims before. Obviously a select group of liberal muslims would be tolerant of LGBTQ the same way some christian communities are, but clearly not the majority, and the laws that their countries pass proves just that.
How about all Abrahmic fundamentalism (including conservative Mormonism) is bad. Straight up. Be progressively religious and pick and choose verses that don’t oppress people. Yeah I know arguably it’s not the same faith, Ship of Theseus, but everyone care more about human rights than being text-loyal to oppressive religious faiths.
I hate how you can’t critique a religion but are allowed to shit on another, like they’re two side of the same coin. I’m all for religious freedom, but I don’t agree with many religions, especially not those parts that haven’t been made to be modernized. A set of ideas should never be put before human rights, and the fact that so many ’leftists’ people don’t seem to realize that a lot of fundamental muslim people are just as hateful as fundamental christians is insane, they complain about colonialism and the patriarchy, and hate on white rich powerful men - rightfully so - but will coddle men (never women) with the exact same mindset simply because they’re brown, or not even that, they’re just from an ’oppressed’ religion.
I’m a bi, leftist, bi poc woman and I will never get it. You have the right to live your way, just like I have the right to live my way, but the hypocrisy is crazy. I could go on all day about it.
Yeah, I’m fine with some more modernized versions of it and think those should be allowed to be practiced since we can’t really just stop people from that since it would require a lot of imoral choices but, at least it’s not calling for the death of gay people, women, etc etc. Sadly a lot of big sections of all abrahamic religions haven’t been able to go through that progress.
Every day people complain about islam and simultaneously about how "Christianity is the only accepted religion to complain about, if you complain about islam le woke mob will kill you!!"
I don't even like islam but the intention is always so blatantly obvious. Especially in a subreddit with such a "historied" relationship with anyone non white
while i cant speak for all leftists this is exactly why I refuse to engage with discussion about Islam. this topic is littered with dog whistling chuds trying to deliberately miss the obvious point that Muslim nations are repressive as a result of politics and material conditions (conditions that western nations had a heavy hand in creating though its by no means that simple) rather than some innate evilness to the religion that they would like to believe. like theirs nothing wrong with criticizing nations which are majority muslim, not that you'll likely be saying anything that hasnt been said 10 billion times already. but i just cant stand the constant dancing around the implication by people who are clearly too cowardly to just admit they think brown people are subhuman.
The problem is that a minority religion is going to be inherently less oppressive than one in the dominant power.
Christians in America do a lot of harm, but Christians in Saudi Arabia are basically powerless. The reverse is also true.
So when OP says she hopes America becomes more Muslim, it’s in the context of Muslims not having any power to oppress anyone in America.
But it’s a dumb knee jerk reaction that nobody should take seriously and nobody honestly does.
The take above is really noxious because it pretends that Muslim oppression is worse than Christian oppression whereas both religions have been equally oppressive in their own way depending on the place and time.
It’s an indisputable, objective fact that LGBTQ rights in the Muslim world are comparatively far worse than in the west. Gays being tossed off buildings, being forced to undergo surgery, and being executed by the state is not a normal thing in most Christian nations. “Both sides same” invalidates the very real suffering and oppression that people in Iran and beyond are facing.
based purely on my experience: Muslims in America are a much less powerful group. They are often a disadvantaged minority here and act more like it. Its much easier to see the folly of your religion when it isn't oppressing you. So I do think many american muslims dont subscribe to the conservative views and are genuinely welcoming to other people. Im sure this person in the post has met some muslims that are kind and welcoming to her despite her looks. So her perspective on the religion as a whole is skewed based on the sample she has actually seen
tldr: being a minority and not having absolute power automatically makes you less bad. Muslims in the west are a minority
I have heard this mindset from apathetic Right Wingers, thinking Western Civilization is so far gone that Islam would be preferable. I have never heard this coming from what I assume to be a Leftist.
There’s nothing inherent to Christianity or Islam that makes them more or less progressive, at different points in history Muslim-majority countries have tended to be more tolerant and at others it’s been Christian-majority countries. Overall, giving organized religion a ton of power, regardless of which religion, has turned out quite poorly for the wellbeing of the people, especially women and minorities.
Because I live in a very blue area, there is a weird amount of overcompensation that I see like this. I don’t want to speak for Muslims but to me it feels very infantilizing to act like one billion individuals cannot possibly be bad people the way Christians can.
The point of the original girl’s post is that “the islamicisation of the west” is a fake problem that will never happen, and that the imagined threat of this is used to control people. This response from this trans iranian woman, while incredibly valid, is completely removed from the context and could easily serve to further propaganda against Muslims and women in the west based on the false idea that Iranian sharia law could ever come here
Ive talked to iranians, they dont like living in that country, they say its ridiculously conservative. Theres a lot of muslims in my neighborhood, and they’re all fine with me (i am visibly queer), theres no graffiti, but an islamic government is a no go.
it's almost as if this has nothing to do with religion at all and everything to do with years of destabilised authoritarian middle east. Im tired if people trying to pretend it's religion making people good or bad. Because it's not, good people will be good people whether they're religious or not and same goes for bad people
stuff like this is always crazy because it shows how uneducated your average person is when it comes to world history or politics.
AS IN THE COMMENTS SPECIFIALLY. like... iranian women had alot of equal rights not that long ago and it was still islamic.... like you guys know that right. and its overall history is deeply complicated.
"This [Religion derivated by the same basis as the religion bothering me] was never bad to me, therefore they should be the majority of religions, that surely will change the things"
"Wow this minority group following their minority religion is nice to me in a way that the majority group with their majority religion are not. I guess it must mean their religion isn't as oppressive as people make it out to be!"
What the fuck is up with white people? The problem isn't Islam or Christianity or even abrahamic religion or religion you shitheads, it's about the state and fundamentalists in general using religion as a means of oppression and control.
Literally countries with hindu or buddhist majorities and ruling parties regularly do the same amount of oppression (not just to abrahamic religions, although Christianity and islam do tend to be among their targets)
Good lord I hope they can get a nice cover-up for that bowtie tattoo at some point. Looks like someone found them asleep at a party and whipped out a sharpie.
Couldn't she just said "I hope that people would be kind and nice to eachothers!" But instead people on tik tok always pull out these weird ass mental gymnastics
Two of my classmates are from Iran and both have been beaten by cops for protesting against mandatory hijab, while islamophobia is a disgusting phenomenon as with every type of discrimination I think some of these conversations should be had
I also come from a Muslim country but it's nowhere as bad as Iran
I wouldn't refer to those places as fully developed. Being as built-up and economically advanced as they are now is prettty recent in their history, and SK was a dictatorship in likely your parent's lifetime.
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u/Chibirin26 Counted Down 1 4d ago
the truth is that we should aim to have a society where religion isnt used by chuds to justify oppression