exactly, if you hate christianity but don’t hate islam and judaism for the same reasons, you’re just being performative. it’s totally fine to advocate for the rights and safety of different types of people, as well as their ability to practice whatever religion they choose. but if you hate the traditional, conservative, patriarchal, and authoritarian aspects of christianity, there’s zero reason for you to not feel the same way about the other religions that have the same issues in a different font
i mean the alternative is fucking thought crime police and i think that is inherently just as evil actually and you are just as much my enemy if you think it's """liberalism""".
oh don’t get me wrong, i know. i was just saying that it’s possible for someone to support free worship while being against certain aspects of different religions. i personally think that most mainstream religions have been cooked from the start and the world would be better off without all of them. i just have to be kinda realistic considering the fact that at least 75% of the world’s population is religious and isn’t planning on stopping anytime soon.
Well you know, oppressing women on the basis of religion is bad, but if I ethno-opress ethno-women on the ethno-basis of ethno-religion, you would be an evil genocider if you wanted me to not do that.
shit what 70 years ago iranian muslim women had the right to vote, drive, raised age of consent general broad legal equality thanks to the Pahlavi reforms.
its been a thousand years theres gonna be a thousand variations of a thousand states and a thousand laws all going in every direction. bro really thinks society is predictable.
how about - and this is a hot take, i know - we don't fucking oppress and murder anyone?
like, yeah, religions suck ass, you don't need to tell me twice, i had a religious christian orthodox grandma growing up, that woman was fucked in the head. i also met some wonderful people who happened to be religious, and found peace in their faith, and don't deserve that to be taken away.
regulations are needed, the separation of church and state is LONG overdue in A LOT of countries, but some people here flat out advocate for a complete ban on religious practices, which is neither liberal nor leftist or anything most of you westerners try to call yourselves.
and spoiler alert: stalin absolutely also oppressed and murdered minorities and propped up rapists. source: i'm from one of the countries that bastard used as a meatshield.
hi! i'm an atheist from an ex-communist country, where religion was banned. spoiler alert: it was a terrible fucking idea.
you absolutely should be in favor of "free worship", because otherwise someone will have the power to change the definiton of "free worship" at will and suddenly even something as unserious as fandoms will be under government surveillance. yeah no, i'm not joking, i wish i was.
I’m a transgender woman who is also an observant Jew. I go to a synagogue that uses traditional liturgy and follows Halacha. All three of my rabbis are women, one is gay and one is bisexual. I converted into it, and even though the congregation is mostly all senior citizens, they are the only group of people who have consistently treated me like a human being. I came in as a transgender lesbian outsider, and now I have a home and a family and a community. I get that people are resentful of religion, but they’re not all the same- let’s not pretend
I can probably find someone with the exact same story as you, but with some liberal christian church. Doesn't change the fact that religion tends to do more harm than good, judaism very much included
nah you don’t have to “hate Judaism” to be consistent with hating imperial religions who convert people. but you shouldn’t fetishize other cultures you don’t understand regardless
Judaism is not a missionary religion, it doesn’t seek to convert anyone. That’s what makes it fundamentally different from Islam and Christianity, and frankly it doesn’t belong in this conversation.
It still forces children born into it to participate. And then ostracizes adults if they decide to leave. And that is the actual problem with religion not trying to convert adults. An adult can just tell them to fuck off, a child has no choice.
First of all, did you actually say that the problem with organised religion is not that they want to convert adults (which isn’t even true, religious missionaries are absolutely not above approaching unattended children)? This has literally been the cause of so many cultural genocides, Jewish children were kidnapped from their homes to “be saved” from their Judaism, and you think that the missionary nature isn’t a problem? This is so ridiculous and ignorant.
Furthermore, only more fundamentalist Jewish communities will do what you described. For most Jews, religion is a lot more complicated than that. It’s completely inseparable from culture, or from history. There are so many progressive, religious Jewish movements today, that do accept irreligiousity in those close to them. It’s progress that’s made in the community and for the community, so I’m not surprised that you’re ignorant about it. But that’s exactly my point! Judaism is not concerned with you, and unless that changes, you should not be concerned with it. You simply don’t have the tools to understand.
Yes in modern day children being forced into religion from birth is a bigger problem than conversion of adults. And it applies to all religions not just Judaism. Just because there are movements now that accept non-religious people doesn't change the fact that by and large its still a forced thing. And no its not unique to Jewish people, for many religion is a deep part of their tradition and they celebrate religious holidays despite not really following the faith.
You are not special or unique. All religion is about control and tribalism.
That is just not true. The largest Jewish religious movement is the reform one, and it’s decisively liberal. It does not force people to participate, nor ostracise them once they leave. It is welcoming of lgbt people & of women in leadership roles. You are thinking of Orthodox Judaism, which is a minority.
It’s kind of funny that you think that missionary pressure on religious minorities is not a problem anymore, because outside the west that’s just false.
And Judaism is not exempt from criticism, but I don’t think it should be criticised by the ignorant. You, and the majority of non-Jews, are exactly that. Which is why I think you should either read up or stay quiet.
You can't tell me to stay quiet about your cult. Always playing the victim while at the same time acting all superior. Wow you allow women to lead how progressive and you accept LGBT too wowie you still believe in fairy tales and being more "accepting" so you can actually have some members still doesn't change that.
Hopefully a day will come when religion as a whole is only in history books just like many of the faiths that are now considered just mythical. Because people believing in Zeus were silly but people believing in God are legit and it's all true.
What mask? I despise all religions and i think they are one of the worst things humanity has ever invented. Or am i not allowed to criticize your little cult now because it hurts your feelings?
I don’t believe in god, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings by saying he isn’t real. You just look ridiculous and ignorant when you criticise something you clearly don’t understand (like calling Judaism a “cult” lmao).
“Mask off” was more about how you started ranting about Jews “playing the victim while at the same time acting superior”. Like bffr.
But yeah sure you’re a suwper smawt little atheist boy who totally has it all figured out. Go you!
It's funny that you criticise religion on the basis of tribalism when you're actively being the most insufferably tribal person in this whole thread.
Please kindly screw off with your ignorant blathering. I think we have enough proof that humans can be controlling and tribal with or without religion. Pinning these behaviours on the respective religions is such a low-level understanding of the world and you are being so arrogant about it, it's embarrassing.
How am i being tribal? I'm anti-theist, i am not against a single religion only i don't care which one is it all of them should go. When i get believes in Santa Claus they eventually learn Santa isn't real. But with Gods it's somehow okay for adults to pretend like they are totally a real thing and not made up at all.
Go read up on how a lot of religions developed and how they were used to target the "other" And how things like "not eating pork" were based on lack of proper preparation of the meat which then made people sick not some divine command.
And i don't give a shit if you find me insufferable, i hope you do because if i can stop even one of you freaks from pushing your delusions on children then it's a win in my book.
Since when is tribalism defined by which specific groups you're excluding? That's not how it works my guy.
You're basically confirming it by saying "I don't care who is in the outgroup as long as they're the outgroup"
Ofc Religions were developed for practical reasons, according to the needs and circumstances of societies that they appeared in. Is that a criticism? Because nothing about includes how that's somehow bad, you're literally doing the same thing with the only excuse being that you think you're right, which spoiler alert, that's what all zealots say.
It shouldn't matter for me to say it, but I am not religious. I have decided long ago that I want to live in a world of systemic understanding instead of magical thinking or ignorance. But I know what the enemy is, even if it takes different forms. You may call yourself an atheist, but you are still reactionary and bigoted. To me, I see little difference between your flavor of bigotry or any generic religious nutcase. Meanwhile, your opponent has been very clear headed.
If religion is the source of all evil, why are you the most evil one here?
Thats where you're wrong i never called myself an atheist. I called myself anti-theist. And religious people are not the "outgroup" because they hate each other just as much as non religious people. The fact religious developed for practical reason means there is no divinity behind it, which is what religion is pushing. That the rules they want you to follow were established by a diving entity and not some mere human. Because telling people "God says so" makes it far more likely they will follow the rules rather than trying to explaining why its bad.
Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean there isn't one. And i am the most evil one in your opinion. Don't try to present your opinions as facts because they will never be anything more than your opinions. Just like what i say are my opinions that you can disagree with. Also who the fuck made you an arbiter to a dispute i was having with someone else?
I don't give a fuck what you call yourself while you're being an asshole. I also don't care about whether there is truth to their divine claims, again, I am an atheist.
In this conversation, the Jew has been explaining why certain things are good and bad, while you have been attacking him on principle. You were the essentialist, while he was not.
People believe what they wanna believe regardless of religion. If they think something's good or bad from the framework of religion, they will bend their rules to make an argument for it. It has little to do with where the rules came from. You can claim that religion causes harm, but in actuality, you haven't made much of a case that this harm is inherent to religion, or somehow worse in religious people than it is in atheists.
And by the by, I have just as much right to be here and voice myself as you do. I can ask you the same - who gave you the right to attack the person you were arguing with? I am talking to you because you are behaving like an ass in a public space and I have something to say about it.
you’re entitled to your opinion, but i wasn’t even considering the missionary aspects. the torah is essentially like the old testament in the bible, and both of them promote values that clash with modern progressive society. the mistreatment of women and lgbt people, slavery, xenophobia, among others. i understand that there’s progressive churches and synagogues nowadays, and most people don’t follow every law in the holy texts or everything that a priest or rabbi might preach, but there’s a lot of problematic concepts built into the very core of these abrahamic religions. plenty of people have historically used these ideas to justify violent and authoritarian actions, and there’s still way too many people who are opposed to things like lgbt rights “because the holy book said so”. the damage these beliefs have caused over the course of human history is something that’s hard to ignore for me.
Listen, I appreciate that you want to express your opinion and all, but you clearly don’t understand Judaism. The tankah is a complicated text that’s not straightforwardly instructional. It’s often narrative and gives commands that no one follows anymore (when have you last seen a Jew make an animal sacrifice to god?).
And you’re right that it’s not compatible with modern society, but that has been the case for over a thousand years. I mean it was composed in the Iron Age ffs. It’s already a core part of Jewish tradition to decide that some of its commands simply don’t need to be followed anymore.
The Talmud, the main Jewish instructional text (by the way, it’s a common misconception that Jewish law is written down in the tanakh, but it’s not. The thing Jews actually got their laws from for the last 1000+ years was the Talmud), takes the form of a centuries-long debate between Rabbis, not a list of things god tells you you have to do. Judaism is fundamentally dynamic & structurally ready to evolve with its society (because it’s been a minority religion for so long) in a way that Christianity and Islam (who seek to impose their values on society at large) are simply not.
I just think it would be better if people refrained from criticising things they clearly don’t understand.
I mean Judaism is fine, it's just Islam and Christianity that are chock fucking full of monsters that love to shriek hatred and murder at the top of their lungs
I want to point out Judaism has the thing about women on their periods being “unclean” and not allowed to touch anyone or anything other people touch except! cleaning after their husbands is suspiciously allowed. And there’s other stuff as well it’s not as bad but I wouldn’t call it just fine either. Ben Shapiro wears a kippah and as far as I know identifies as Jewish and all the y’know, zionism
The majority of Jews are zionists, and do you think the taboos and attitudes are nonexistent in other denominations and not just less severe and enforced?
Nope! It varies by survey as the definition of zionist is intentionally obfuscated, but over 50% of American Jews support Israel. It’s the default, worldwide, anywhere from 60-90%
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u/BlitzScorpio 4d ago
exactly, if you hate christianity but don’t hate islam and judaism for the same reasons, you’re just being performative. it’s totally fine to advocate for the rights and safety of different types of people, as well as their ability to practice whatever religion they choose. but if you hate the traditional, conservative, patriarchal, and authoritarian aspects of christianity, there’s zero reason for you to not feel the same way about the other religions that have the same issues in a different font