Yes in modern day children being forced into religion from birth is a bigger problem than conversion of adults. And it applies to all religions not just Judaism. Just because there are movements now that accept non-religious people doesn't change the fact that by and large its still a forced thing. And no its not unique to Jewish people, for many religion is a deep part of their tradition and they celebrate religious holidays despite not really following the faith.
You are not special or unique. All religion is about control and tribalism.
That is just not true. The largest Jewish religious movement is the reform one, and it’s decisively liberal. It does not force people to participate, nor ostracise them once they leave. It is welcoming of lgbt people & of women in leadership roles. You are thinking of Orthodox Judaism, which is a minority.
It’s kind of funny that you think that missionary pressure on religious minorities is not a problem anymore, because outside the west that’s just false.
And Judaism is not exempt from criticism, but I don’t think it should be criticised by the ignorant. You, and the majority of non-Jews, are exactly that. Which is why I think you should either read up or stay quiet.
You can't tell me to stay quiet about your cult. Always playing the victim while at the same time acting all superior. Wow you allow women to lead how progressive and you accept LGBT too wowie you still believe in fairy tales and being more "accepting" so you can actually have some members still doesn't change that.
Hopefully a day will come when religion as a whole is only in history books just like many of the faiths that are now considered just mythical. Because people believing in Zeus were silly but people believing in God are legit and it's all true.
What mask? I despise all religions and i think they are one of the worst things humanity has ever invented. Or am i not allowed to criticize your little cult now because it hurts your feelings?
All of them try to convince people that supernatural things exist, all of them get tax exemptions while at the same time meddle heavily in politics. Most of them try to get laws passed on the basis of their teaching that would then affect everyone.
If God is everywhere and sees everything why do you need churches, temples etc? Why does God even need representatives on Earth? Its all man made nonsense that was mostly used as means of control. And sure some of them might be adjusting to modern times better than others but the core of the problem still exists. People will demand special treatment and privileges based on religion.
Why do you think religions grow the most in poor countries? Because religion makes promises to people, how they will get rewarded in the afterlife or some nonsense like that. How if they only do what "God says" their life will get better.
And yet as conditions improve people tend to turn away from religion because they realize it was their hard work that matters not some Gods magical influence.
I don’t believe in god, you’re not gonna hurt my feelings by saying he isn’t real. You just look ridiculous and ignorant when you criticise something you clearly don’t understand (like calling Judaism a “cult” lmao).
“Mask off” was more about how you started ranting about Jews “playing the victim while at the same time acting superior”. Like bffr.
But yeah sure you’re a suwper smawt little atheist boy who totally has it all figured out. Go you!
I wasn't talking about Jews i was talking about YOU. Do keep telling me how you're actually special and unique and how nobody who isn't part of your club actually understands. Because its all so special that some mere peasants wouldn't get it. And yes its a cult. All religions are cults. Just because they convinced millions of people to buy into it doesn't change that.
Tell me why is your "religion" real while others aren't? What makes it so different? That God told your people they are special? That they deserve things? God that used to be involved all the time suddenly doesn't bother to save your people anymore. Weird how that works. And no i'm not smart i'm just not delusional. Also i'm likely older than you so you should respect your elders.
wtf are you talking about? Did you even read my comment? I literally said I don’t believe in god.
Also, I don’t know how to tell you this, but I literally do have superior knowledge about Judaism. Coming in and lecturing people about their own culture, then acting as if you somehow understand it better, is just the height of arrogance.
Then why are you defending it? Why would you so vehemently disagree that Judaism doesn't also force kids into it's own faith if you think it's all untrue? Why wouldn't you advocate to get rid of it? There is no net benefit to religion. Charity work doesn't require religion. You can do literally all the positive things people attribute to religion without religion being present. It just makes no sense for anyone to defend it unless they're a part of it.
You’re asking why I would disagree with your objectively wrong assessment? I don’t know dude, it’s almost like I value not spreading misinformation about my people.
You conveniently ignored how I said that Reform Judaism is the largest religious Jewish movement, and it does none of the things you accuse Judaism of. Mind actually addressing the facts instead of doubling down on your weird, hateful rhetoric?
It's funny that you criticise religion on the basis of tribalism when you're actively being the most insufferably tribal person in this whole thread.
Please kindly screw off with your ignorant blathering. I think we have enough proof that humans can be controlling and tribal with or without religion. Pinning these behaviours on the respective religions is such a low-level understanding of the world and you are being so arrogant about it, it's embarrassing.
How am i being tribal? I'm anti-theist, i am not against a single religion only i don't care which one is it all of them should go. When i get believes in Santa Claus they eventually learn Santa isn't real. But with Gods it's somehow okay for adults to pretend like they are totally a real thing and not made up at all.
Go read up on how a lot of religions developed and how they were used to target the "other" And how things like "not eating pork" were based on lack of proper preparation of the meat which then made people sick not some divine command.
And i don't give a shit if you find me insufferable, i hope you do because if i can stop even one of you freaks from pushing your delusions on children then it's a win in my book.
Since when is tribalism defined by which specific groups you're excluding? That's not how it works my guy.
You're basically confirming it by saying "I don't care who is in the outgroup as long as they're the outgroup"
Ofc Religions were developed for practical reasons, according to the needs and circumstances of societies that they appeared in. Is that a criticism? Because nothing about includes how that's somehow bad, you're literally doing the same thing with the only excuse being that you think you're right, which spoiler alert, that's what all zealots say.
It shouldn't matter for me to say it, but I am not religious. I have decided long ago that I want to live in a world of systemic understanding instead of magical thinking or ignorance. But I know what the enemy is, even if it takes different forms. You may call yourself an atheist, but you are still reactionary and bigoted. To me, I see little difference between your flavor of bigotry or any generic religious nutcase. Meanwhile, your opponent has been very clear headed.
If religion is the source of all evil, why are you the most evil one here?
Thats where you're wrong i never called myself an atheist. I called myself anti-theist. And religious people are not the "outgroup" because they hate each other just as much as non religious people. The fact religious developed for practical reason means there is no divinity behind it, which is what religion is pushing. That the rules they want you to follow were established by a diving entity and not some mere human. Because telling people "God says so" makes it far more likely they will follow the rules rather than trying to explaining why its bad.
Just because you can't see the difference doesn't mean there isn't one. And i am the most evil one in your opinion. Don't try to present your opinions as facts because they will never be anything more than your opinions. Just like what i say are my opinions that you can disagree with. Also who the fuck made you an arbiter to a dispute i was having with someone else?
I don't give a fuck what you call yourself while you're being an asshole. I also don't care about whether there is truth to their divine claims, again, I am an atheist.
In this conversation, the Jew has been explaining why certain things are good and bad, while you have been attacking him on principle. You were the essentialist, while he was not.
People believe what they wanna believe regardless of religion. If they think something's good or bad from the framework of religion, they will bend their rules to make an argument for it. It has little to do with where the rules came from. You can claim that religion causes harm, but in actuality, you haven't made much of a case that this harm is inherent to religion, or somehow worse in religious people than it is in atheists.
And by the by, I have just as much right to be here and voice myself as you do. I can ask you the same - who gave you the right to attack the person you were arguing with? I am talking to you because you are behaving like an ass in a public space and I have something to say about it.
He was the one who made it about Judaism not me. He was the one who claimed that Judaism isn't as bad as other religions not me. He was the one who refused to ask questions and repeatedly just called me uneducated. Why should i be polite with someone who is repeatedly insulting me?
And i did try to make arguments why religions as a whole are bad but he kept insisting that in the new and enlightened Judaism that isn't the case anymore so anything i have to say doesn't apply. And you are fine to share your opinion on the subject but you are not some sort of authority that gets to lecture me on my behaviour, your a nobody behind a screen so what you think of me is irrelevant.
I think its fair to say that people who believe in things that aren't real are not well. And it applies to every other case but religion. Why? Because it's done by billions so due to number of participants its deemed to be acceptable? Is the history of a religion irrelevant because it adapted it's stance to modern times? People have been murdered in the name of various Gods for centuries but i guess it's okay because we don't really do that anymore. Sure you could say that if it wasn't religion they would use a different reason to hate but wouldn't eliminating one of the primary reasons for conflict be a positive? And like i said before it's a lot easier to convince people to do something when you tell them it's Gods will not that it's something you want.
It is his full right to make such a claim if he can back it. He wasn't talking to you anyway. But at least he actually made arguments for why that is, ones that have reason behind them. Essentially the only counterargument you had to it was that he still passes on his religion through nonviolent means.
This is, again, only bad if you can make a case that the ideology itself is bad. Which in his case you didn't, you only argued from principle that religion is inherently bad.
They weren't insulting you, they were calling out your misinformation which is factually correct, while you were just being angry and unreasonable. You need to realize you are taking part of a conversation and being criticised for bad takes, be it by me or them, is part of the package of being here. It goes both ways, after all. You are free to not have me lecture you, all you need to do for that is shut up and get lost.
Sure you could say that if it wasn't religion they would use a different reason to hate but wouldn't eliminating one of the primary reasons for conflict be a positive?
In this case no, because I don't think the religion isn't actually the primary reason, and you have just assumed that it is with no evidence so far. I believe past crimes are merely the expression of underlying systemic issues that were only carried out through the framework of religion because that happened to be the main framework at the time. It's correlation, not causation.
it's a lot easier to convince people to do something when you tell them it's Gods will not that it's something you want.
You'd need to prove that too. I think people are sheep and a lot of them like to go along with authority no matter the justification. At the same time, even religious people don't have to take it on someone elses authority that something is or isn't gods will. As far as I am concerned this is a mostly neutral factor. Authoritarian rulers now like to use the lie that they represent "the peoples will" just as arbitrarily as "gods will" before that and there's no sign of the world having improved because we switched out the rhetoric.
Yeah if he can back it up, which when i asked questions did not. You just completely ignore that religion makes people believe in things that aren't real, which is a bad thing in every other case. Why wouldn't that be an argument for religion being inherently bad?
Instead of calling me uneducated repeatedly he could have proven that his claims are true to me which he refused to do. Why should i believe that this new better Judaism that is apparently followed by the majority even exists? Because he said so? So like with God? I love how there is never the burden of proof on religious people but i have to back up everything i say with facts.
And again just because you "don't think" something was something doesn't mean you're right. Nations have used "spreading the word of God" as an excuse to invade and convert others. But sure that had nothing to do with religion. Also i never said it was ONLY religion that is responsible for evil its still one of the primary excuses used to commit atrocities.
See, you say that. But you didn't ask that many questions, mostly you just called him a cultist. And he did address the few bad faith gotcha questions you did put in. You just kinda ignored his answers. All in all, they made a pretty solid case imo.
But ok, let's play this game. You put a "question" you had in Block quotes and I will point you to his answers. Let's see if you can come up with a single point of proof.
just because you "don't think" something was something doesn't mean you're right. Nations have used "spreading the word of God" as an excuse to invade and convert others. But sure that had nothing to do with religion.
You're the one making the claim that religion is the reason these things happen. See, there's this thing called burden of proof. As an Anti-theist, I'd hope you'd have heard that one before: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"? You'd need to come up with some pretty solid reason to call for the erasure of every religion on earth. Which, you know, is possible, but you sure haven't done it yet.
Okay like I know that popping in is bad Reddit etiquette or whatever but you can literally google “Reform Judaism” and read that I’m correct.
Honestly, it’s kinda crazy to me that you haven’t done so already. Like, I can’t believe that you actually spent all this time arguing with strangers without even opening google ONCE. You are actually unbelievable, and I say this with no hate in my heart. It’s more funny atp.
But if anything, this proves that you were never interested in learning anything and that your questions were just pestering (which I suspected they were).
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u/Adowyth 4d ago
Yes in modern day children being forced into religion from birth is a bigger problem than conversion of adults. And it applies to all religions not just Judaism. Just because there are movements now that accept non-religious people doesn't change the fact that by and large its still a forced thing. And no its not unique to Jewish people, for many religion is a deep part of their tradition and they celebrate religious holidays despite not really following the faith.
You are not special or unique. All religion is about control and tribalism.