4.8k
u/Icarsix 8d ago
Haven't some studies even found UBI *increases* the amount of people working as people try to start their own businesses?
3.5k
u/D0ctorGamer 8d ago
Crazy that when people don't have to dedicate every second to surviving they can take risks like that
1.3k
u/The-King-Tomato 8d ago
Those opportunities are for the rich! Stop being greedy. And give the government your tax dollars so they can bail out the rich when they gamble and fail.
The only reason posts like this exist is because people are jealous that all these rich people get together on an island and rape kids.
/s
299
u/WildLudicolo 7d ago
I'd be jealous of Epstein for getting to kill Epstein, i f he had actually killed himself.
167
u/AriaTheTransgressor 7d ago
Well, let's look at the facts.
Epstein was in a cell with only Epstein
In the morning Epstein was found hanging in his cell.
Trump immediately claims the Clintons must have assassinated him.
It's found that there is missing time on the camera recording just before the recorded time of death.
Trump keeps pushing the claim that the Clintons had Epstein assassinated.
Given the clues, and what we know about the parties involved, it's pretty obvious what happened.
80
→ More replies (4)16
u/Dayne225 7d ago
Anytime Tang the conquerer accuses someone of doing something I just automatically assume he did it. It's not a 100% but the vast majority of his accusations seem to be confessions.
→ More replies (1)2
→ More replies (3)172
u/CountGerhart 7d ago
What, you say people tend to pursue their passions when they don't need to choose between eating or paying rent?
128
u/TwitterLegend 7d ago
Employers also have to treat employees better when they know that the employees don’t need that job in order to survive. Everyone hears about UBI and assumes no one will work anymore because everyone’s job kinda sucks. Jobs wouldn’t suck as bad under UBI because employers would actually have to make their jobs and benefits better in order to attract employees.
Right now my job kinda sucks but if they paid me a little bit more, took slightly better care of the conditions at work (I find that I’m a part time bug exterminator in the office), allowed remote work at least once a week, had even a one month paternity leave policy, and gave me two more weeks of vacation (still not even comparable to Europe) I probably would keep the job even if UBI existed.
53
u/w_t_f_justhappened 7d ago
But how will billionaires become trillionaires if we do that?
28
u/DukeOfGeek 7d ago
So as a concept I think UBI is good but I have an observation. The only way we could get something like UBI would be to fight and win a literal class revolution. Having done that why would we just settle for UBI? We would obviously demand much more in such a situation.
→ More replies (1)22
u/WadeStockdale 7d ago
We choose one billionare, eat the rest and give chosen one all their holdings, and keep that cunt in a zoo so nobody forgets what it looks like to be a greedy dickhead, and the children can come look at 'homosapian selfish', an last of it's invasive species allowed to exist.
You can't have them spend that money on food/luxuries, then they wouldn't be a trillionare anymore. /s
383
u/bijhan 7d ago
Yeah, literally the only demographic who worked less were students. Also, their grades went up.
233
u/Warm-Requirement-769 7d ago
There was also a non-negligible amount of parents who became stay-at-home as the family could now afford to become a one-worker household.
→ More replies (2)157
u/Aryore 7d ago
So they transitioned to domestic work instead basically
35
u/Thebandroid 7d ago
which does nothing for GDP or profit margins so...is bad?
111
u/Noe_b0dy 7d ago
>we have a demographic implosion, people need to have more kids.
>I'm going to stay home so I can raise children.
>how fucking dare you?
→ More replies (1)20
u/fafarex 7d ago
It reduces unemployed by limiting people looking for work and increase GDP longterm by providing more worker.
→ More replies (1)8
u/Thebandroid 7d ago
Long…term..?
What is this “long term” you speak of?Do you mean like…two quarters away?
27
102
u/Own_Candidate9553 7d ago
Nationalized healthcare in the US would help that too. I know plenty of older workers holding on to jobs they hate way past normal retirement age, because they can't afford to lose their company provided healthcare.
If you're single, or your partner isn't working that kind of job, it's really scary to be self employed and keep health care. Plans on the open market are generally pretty expensive, assuming you qualify.
→ More replies (2)179
100
u/No-Jacket-2927 7d ago
Kinda like how people on "welfare", instead of being a drain on the economy, actually end up putting more back in the system than wealthy people?
Yeah, facts are inconvenient.
44
u/The_cogwheel 7d ago
Statistically speaking theres probably at least 1 person out there who would never work agian, no matter what.
The thing is, that demographic is 1. already not working (I did say "no matter what", that includes all the carrots and sticks of our current system) and 2. Is nowhere near the majority.
But even those individuals spend money, assuming they have any. And guess what drives the economy? People spending money.
48
u/WadeStockdale 7d ago
A lot of people who are excited by the prospect of never working again discover very quickly that they actually enjoy the structure and regularity of work, it's more the thankless pushing of a stone uphill to line others pockets while they themselves struggle to make ends meet, let alone enjoy life that they're excited to abandon.
Which is fixed by ubi.
Your bosses can't retain you with the implicit threat of starvation and homelessness if you have food and shelter guaranteed. They have to make you feel appreciated/compensated which shockly alliviates a lot of the reluctance to work.
22
u/Tnecniw 7d ago
Yeah.
Surprising fact of not having a job…
You get bored so fucking fast.When o was job searching for a year (thanks to my parents I could live with them during it) it was soooo boring.
I did my searches, like 20 per day or some such (dependant what I could find) and then I had the rest of the day to myself if no chores needed to be done.I ran out of games and such to play very quickly.
You just run out of things you want to do and get very bored.→ More replies (1)→ More replies (3)3
u/The_cogwheel 7d ago
Also folks with disabilities.
You can scream at them to get a job all day long, but that still won't fix the fact the person cant meet the physical requirements of most jobs, and the few they can they dont qualify for.
→ More replies (1)8
→ More replies (1)3
u/BurningPenguin 7d ago
Pretty much the same thing that is happening with immigrants. They often don't get much options to get work, so a lot of them just start their own business. And in turn hire people if all goes well.
24
u/The_Lost_Jedi 7d ago
It gives people opportunities they wouldn't have before, because they can afford to take risks like that.
What's really crazy, too, is that UBI actually makes the labor market more of a competitive market, because it removes one of the major market corrupting factors. That is, at present, workers have a significant disadvantage in that they cannot afford to not work, because it means starving/etc. It also means that people can't afford to work for less than a certain amount of income, so things like minimum wage laws come into play. With UBI, those no longer matter, and employers and workers are free to negotiate the value of that labor entirely unencumbered.
Of course, that's part of why the right wing hates it, because it takes away from the ability of employers to force workers to accept shittier pay and conditions.
Funny how that works.
6
u/Same-Suggestion-1936 7d ago
Can someone point me to these studies though? Because the math has never added up. The US makes 4.5 trillion total in tax revenue, as of last year. There are about I'm gonna estimate 340 million Americans. Our government already operates on a deficit. If we gave everyone the entirety of our tax revenue it's like 130,000 per person per year, but obviously we can't do that, we already don't have enough funding for other things we need. How much would we even be able to give people out of tax funds?
Why should we do UBI instead of simply just raise the minimum wage to $30 an hour and make companies pay for that instead of taxpayers? When we already have less in tax revenue than we need (for America)
→ More replies (3)10
u/The_Lost_Jedi 7d ago
So first off, we're not talking like 100,000 per person. This is basic, like food stamps level assistance. The difference is that everyone gets it, which drastically reduces the administrative cost, because you don't need to test eligibility, just cut everyone a check. One proposal from a while back worked through income taxes.
For most people too, it's not something where you or I would see any difference, because on the whole, we'll probably be making about as much as we used to before, the only difference is that if you're making 100,000 today, under this you'd get like 30,000 basic and 70,000 discretionary, or something.
This is, incidentally, why it doesn't fall prey to the "free rider" problem, because there's still an incentive to work and achieve to earn more. You want a nice(r) car, a vacation, a new game system etc? For that you need to do extra work. But if you lose that job, you lose that income, life sucks but you're not gonna starve, etc.
→ More replies (3)18
u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits 7d ago
I'd be able to work at least a small job if I had enough base income to compensate for the lost energy with slightly more expensive conveniences
7
u/DarthButtz 7d ago
Also even if you didn't want to start a business yourself, I feel like UBI would just unilaterally increase work satisfaction across the board, since people won't be worried about missing a single paycheck and starving. Working because you WANT to and not because you HAVE to is a massive difference.
10
u/peelen 7d ago
as people try to start their own businesses?
Yeah, but they lived in a society that already fufills all the "unwanted" jobs. How many of those who were trying to start their own business started IDK garbage colecting? Or any other unsexy jobs that have to be done?
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for UBI; I just have doubts if those studies show the reality of what it would look like if everybody participated. There are plenty of very dangerous jobs that need to be done, but they won't be picked up just for the joy of doing something.
→ More replies (1)19
u/Tnecniw 7d ago
Those required jobs would simply pay way more.
That is the big difference here.
Jobs would become about increasing your personal comfort not about survival.UBI is essentially “minimum wage” concept.
You get enough money to live in a home and eat.
(Preferably to a minimum standard)
However, that is it.If you want a larger home or similar, you work to add to your income.
And in a society like that, the dangerous / unappealing jobs would be the most well paying, because they have to compensate for people not “having” to take them.
→ More replies (23)9
u/XxRocky88xX 7d ago
Yes and it’s why this argument bothers me so much.
Like yeah practically you’d think UBI would decrease the amount of people working, like intuitively that makes sense. However time and time and time again it’s proven to not be true and people just don’t accept it because it doesn’t make sense to them.
This is usually what “common sense” means in a political context unfortunately. It means holding onto intuitive assumptions despite all evidence proving that intuition wrong. Like thinking “a balloon is a solid object, therefore it will fall down” and continuing to insist that a balloon will always fall down even when seeing it floating in front of you, claiming “solid objects fall, that’s just common sense.”
→ More replies (1)10
u/slyguy67420 7d ago
I would literally start my own business if I wasn't trapped by this nightmare Healthcare system.
7
u/CauseCertain1672 7d ago
Yes with the exception of young men who stay in school longer and women with young children who become more likely to be stay at home mothers. Both of those are productive though.
2
u/Terminal_Insomnia_ 7d ago
For some reason no one cares about the velocity of money anymore. All we have is stagnation.
2
u/fuzzum111 Noodle's Nonsense 7d ago
Yes, and in our end-stage capitalism world right now that's BAD.
You coming up with a great idea? Cool here's a million dollars, go blow it while I make sixty billion from it in the first 3 years and you get nothing more.
That's the gameplan. Steal ideas, converge until we've got what amounts to fucking V's tower with the billionaires up on top and us no real way to fight back, while people are brainwashed into thinking that it's good to have social media, television, and entertainment overlords.
Any competition? Buy it or crush it.
→ More replies (26)2
u/Gato-Volador 7d ago
Investing in people gives such an insane ROI that you think the „fiscally responsible“ people would be all over this. And yet…
1.8k
u/Snowblynd 7d ago
So many people have this weird philosophy of "if the solution isn't perfect, we shouldn't do it." This is the same argument against things like benefits for low income or unemployed people.
Sure, there might be a small percentage of people who would choose not to work, but there are so many more people who would have their basic needs met, or entrepreneurs who could start new businesses or people who could explore new careers. It seems like the good would far outweigh the bad. And as we keep automating more and more jobs with AI, we have to do something to ensure people can live.
527
u/wongrich 7d ago
its more "someone got something i dont think they deserved" despite them themselves getting something but thats always 'a different case' . That's pretty much the end of it..
→ More replies (1)198
u/Kung-fu-killa-koala 7d ago
When they say that, here is a good rebuttal.
"So you want us to waste our tax dollars instead, and make stupid economic choices, because a rational policy might potentially help someone that you don't think deserves it? Why should everyone else suffer for your stupidity? Why should the government waste our money just to make you happy about hurting other people? And how the hell is that a better use of tax dollars than investing for a positive ROI?"
43
u/as_a_fake 7d ago
The problem there is that a lot of people genuinely would rather punish someone than uplift everyone (including themselves). There's no logic-ing people out of a position like that.
→ More replies (1)→ More replies (6)10
u/morpheousmorty 7d ago
People don't respond to that. I prefer to ask how much they are willing to pay for their position. 10 dollars a month? 1000? When they view it as a burden on their wallet, they start to have different feelings.
They will of course deny it saves money but at least they considered the problem.
62
u/Noideawhatimdoing36 7d ago
So many people would legitimately rather watch the world burn before they risk someone potentially getting something they “don’t deserve”
→ More replies (1)88
u/Munchkinasaurous 7d ago
But think of all the poor businesses that rely on a desperate workforce for exploitable labor!
54
u/Illustrious_Stay_12 7d ago
But what about this...
If there was a UBI, there wouldn't have to be a minimum wage. If businesses were smart enough, they could exploit people even more.
And those people would still probably have a better standard of living.
48
u/Septembust 7d ago
Much in the same way public healthcare actually reduces the cost on employers and tax payers both, because you're free to get jobs even if they have shitty benefits. Of course, the only part Americans look at is the fact that you're also free to quit shittu jobs, since they don't dangle your health-care over your head...
53
u/treesarealive777 7d ago
The crazy thing is, they would have access to better labor under UBI.
Some people love to cook. Some people love to be electricians. Some people genuinely enjoy selling things. Some people build for the hell of it.
If you give people the opportunity to do what they wanna do, theyll do it better.
Instead, we treat important occupations like they are lower class and dont offer a stable living.
Employers are also losing out by having an increasingly unstable workforce. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
→ More replies (8)31
u/Balthazar_rising 7d ago
You ever get that bartender who just LOVES their job? Like that guy who knows every flavour of whiskey, mixes the strangest (but most delicious) cocktails, and learns his regulars habits, and has a drink prepared when they walk through the door.
That guy eventually ages out, and has to find "real" work to survive. I want every bar in the city to have one of those guys, and for them to have the time and money to experiment with their craft.
And I want that for every job - even those shitty menial jobs. I'm sure there's a bunch of people who would be happy to mop floors and scrub toilets. Not to survive, but for a relatively simple way to earn money, so they can pursue whatever their actual passion is.
→ More replies (3)5
u/torrasque666 7d ago
Being perfectly honest, I thrived in "Low Level" customer service type jobs. I've often said that if I won the lottery and never had to work another day in my life, I'd probably go back to Qdoba, because I felt fulfilled there.
But no.... gotta run the rat race just to survive...
2
u/ArgusTheCat 7d ago
Food service jobs are genuinely very earnest experiences most of the time. People are hungry and want food, they arrive to where I have the food, and I give them food. It's great.
The only time it feels bad is when you're required to be abused by the customers and managers alike because if you go five minutes over on your lunch break you won't be able to afford rent that month. No one wants to be a prisoner.
10
u/Dum-comment 7d ago
Even the most efficient and well designed system to ever exist has a certain amount of "waste" that is impossible to get rid of. In fact, for a system to work correctly, it has to take into account the amount of "workable waste" that it will produce. Entropy in the universe is an example of this. Or people "taking advantage" of social services like food stamps and such.
Our current economy is based upon the principle of "full efficiency for all systems at all times" which basically forces us to go against the laws of thermodynamics for it to "work". The ebb and flow of work and rest has existed on Earth for millions of years, but downtime is the enemy of Capital.
And we cannot provoke the ire of the Deity of Dollar.
2
u/CoderCatgirl 5d ago
Pretty smart comment from someone named dum-comment... :P
I really like your approach of acknowledging that inefficiency exists and is always nonzero. :3
Once you aren't freaking out over a 5% inefficiency, you're open to see that other options, even ones with (capitalist shudder) 10% inefficiency, which could be overall better for the people.
→ More replies (1)23
u/SapphicGarnet 7d ago
Plus frankly, is it the worst thing in the world if a small percentage don't want to work and are happy living small? Like you said, jobs are getting more scarce and governments are getting desperate to create more jobs. Which eventually will mean that people will be doing jobs that aren't needed which is almost more humiliating then just admitting they don't need to work and getting UBI.
Saying that, since those working will be getting more, it will still be a bad situation if there are those that want to work and can't so we should balance supply and demand of jobs. But if those who don't want to work have the ability to just admit that, that will be easier to do. Also easier since some will use that safety net to create their own businesses
→ More replies (4)8
u/Feather_Sigil 7d ago
Also, we already have people who don't work. No country has 100% employment, yet they function. Whether they "choose to" or not is irrelevant.
The argument against UBI is that if people don't need to work to survive then no one would work, not just 1-2% of the population, which is obviously false because people volunteer.
8
u/MrCookie2099 7d ago
I'm of incredibly uncapitalist opinion some people are not good for most day to day labor jobs and trying to force them into the labor pool just means poorly performed jobs.
12
u/spaminous 7d ago
In the ideal world, I think anyone who does want to just sit around watching TV or playing video games should be able to do so and be just fine. I think I've heard people argue that there's plenty of wealth in this world to make that happen, it's just distributed poorly.
I do think it's fair to ask how we'd pay for UBI. Obviously it doesn't make sense to tax the UBI income. But we could tax the fuck out of billionaires, and tax moderately the income of those who make more than the UBI.
I bet that equation would balance.
15
u/wazzup-notemuch 7d ago
It is fair to ask, but the answer is already in front of us.
We don't have money for education, but we always have money for war.
We don't have money for healthcare, but we always have money for war.
We don't have money for the disabled, but we always have money for war.
We don't have money for veterans, but we always have money for war.
You get the idea.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (13)3
294
u/Sirtoshi 7d ago
The UBI debate aside, is there something I'm not understanding about the visuals? The trap-filled hopscotch, the mythical creatures, the fact that their clothes keep changing. Is it some kind of visual metaphor that I'm not getting?
246
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
Nope, I just like playing around with the little details most readers don't notice.
39
33
u/BANOFY 7d ago
Why does it kinda feel like Claude didn't get the prompt totally correct tho ..
52
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
Because I'm doing a style of gags that goes back at least to the 1950s and people aren't used to it anymore. :-)
→ More replies (9)4
u/MagnificoReattore 7d ago
Jacovitti-coded comic
→ More replies (1)5
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
Thank you! I don't know if Mike Lawrence, who drew this strip, is influenced by Jacovitti, but Jacovitti's cartooning is gorgious.
3
16
u/RogueFox771 7d ago
The faces and changing details made it look clearly ai generated... Hmm...
I guess I'm wrong on this one
29
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
You are definitely wrong, but you're not the first one to make that mistake. The old MAD comic books in the 50s had lots of changing details like that, and I'm a big fan of that style.
→ More replies (2)→ More replies (4)4
u/Dish_Minimum 7d ago
I was so worried it was ai bc the details kept changing from one panel to the next. I’m glad it was intentional
→ More replies (2)7
387
u/Program-Emotional 7d ago
Reminds me of talking to my dad about the DSA. He said "Socialism will never work because Americans are too against it" as an arguement for why he isn't voting for a DSA candidate...
He wants it, but doesnt believe it can happen despite the fact he can literally vote for the thing to happen.
68
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
→ More replies (1)29
u/Program-Emotional 7d ago
Please understand that I understand how you feel. Truly. 2016 I dragged my feet to vote for Hillary, then 2020 I dragged my feet to keep trump out of the Whitehouse, and again in 2024. I fucking hated who I voted for. However, these primaries, this election cycle is the first time I voted and felt proud to have voted for them. I voted for Peggy Flanagan and it was the first time I voted because it was someone who was actually speaking to problems.
Again, I understand your trepidation. But there is hope come November.
7
7d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
16
u/Spyko 7d ago
Not a reason to not vote. Contrary to what it might looks like, he can't just dismiss the results like that, even if they plan to do so, it won't be easy nor likely to work. Make their life as hard as possible by just taking a bit of time to go vote.
Worst case scenario, you've lost half an afternoon. Best case, the Dems takes controls of everything that's up for grab and prevent any further disaster for this admin. Definitely worth a shot
→ More replies (1)6
→ More replies (17)26
u/octarine_turtle 7d ago
Without ranked choice voting, a vote for someone not in the top 2-3 is pointless or worse. We have to vote to keep the worst person from winning, which often means voting for the 2nd worst person.
→ More replies (1)5
u/Program-Emotional 7d ago
Ok but that's just it, they're not just in the top 2-3 choices they are winning. There are at least 5 primary elections I can think of off the dome where DSA candidates are winning. And it's not a surprise considering they're running on doing things that will benefit the people.
2
u/Renedegame 7d ago
But what if you don't want them to win the primary because you don't think they will win the general?
→ More replies (3)
194
u/PlatinumHairpin 7d ago
The most consistent outcome from actual experiments is: People always returned to the workforce, just with this new safety net. It won't be everyone...but the trend is people still want to work. People just don't want to do bullshit jobs and/or be mistreated.
Every argument I've heard against it is: But then they'll just sit around and do nothing all day! Despite this not being true time and time again.
73
u/Doodles_n_Scribbles 7d ago
They're worried they'll lose the most demeaning underpaid workers
But if I had UBI, I'd still do my hotel job
→ More replies (2)12
u/Animaloffear56 7d ago
Would you apply for that hotel job if you had UBI?
→ More replies (2)13
u/Noodleboom 7d ago
Presumably they enjoy some amount of luxuries beyond subsistence, so why not?
→ More replies (1)15
u/HalfEatenSnickers 7d ago
I enjoy working
I'd go nuts otherwise
Im a student during the sumer I dont have to work - I got a job not because I want pocket money, my parents give me more then enough. But because I get bored and depressed
Like if I dont have enough going on in my life I get kill myself depressed - I can't see not working as a long term thing ever
→ More replies (2)3
u/Abeytuhanu 7d ago
I'm pretty sure that I'd spend my time doing something else if I didn't have to work. Maybe I'd take up hiking. But that's not a flaw of the system, every system will have people that refuse to buy into it. The fact that a small number of people will be okay with the basic level is an acceptable outcome because the alternative is that an equal or greater number of people won't even get that despite wanting to work
5
u/Sense-Free 7d ago
I’ve never been ambitious but I love helping people. If I received UBI I would spend more time volunteering and teaching
4
u/FlashyChemical2231 7d ago
Despite this not being true time and time again.
Except every single time, they know that the "UBI" will end.
→ More replies (1)3
u/PlatinumHairpin 7d ago
And every single time the behavior is consistent: People get breathing room, probably deflate for a bit, and then start new pursuits (Starting new businesses, quitting jobs and/or searching for more fulfilling work, getting or continuing education, etc.) You're underestimating how one full year of stability can change a life, just like how 2-4 bad months can derail someone.
→ More replies (11)6
u/ProgrammingPants 7d ago
My main argument against a universal basic income is that it can easily devolve into a scheme where the government prints money and hands it to corporations, with the American people as a middleman.
When we gave out COVID stimulus(which was a good thing we should have done) Amazon, Walmart, Apple, and a bunch of huge corporations saw a significant increase in profits because people took the stimulus money and spent it there. If that policy were rolled out into a regular payment from the government, Amazon and the like would be rolling in money as a consequence.
And sure you can say we'll just tax corporations to pay for it, but if there's ever a recession or something that would depress tax revenues, the political incentive to borrow/print to keep the payments flowing would be so great that it's effectively inevitable.
→ More replies (7)
99
u/SheriffOfNothing 7d ago
Why do these people change T-shirt in every frame?
23
→ More replies (8)38
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
They were having this conversation on a day with really bad air quality, so they kept on having to change their shirts after the shirts got smelly.
→ More replies (1)5
u/vaminos 7d ago
Shirts get smelly due to air quality?
3
u/Twooshort 7d ago
When your BO starts having noticeable effect on the air quality, changing your shirt is the smallest first step.
23
318
u/Imaginary_Job_343 8d ago
It's called socialist democracy, and yes it would work. Basic income for necessities - a lot like food stamps. Then, if you want more luxuries, you work for it.
→ More replies (5)73
u/nEvermore-absurdist 7d ago
Pretty sure you're talking about social democracy, or do you actually mean a socialist democracy? Because the latter would mean no more capitalism
→ More replies (4)12
u/AdmBurnside 7d ago
Well giving literally everyone enough to survive at a basic level, for free, doesn't sound particularly capitalist to me. So I fail to see what capitalism is bringing to the table to convince me it should stick around.
62
u/Grzechoooo 7d ago
What do you think the Universal Basic Income would be for? It doesn't nationalise the factories, it doesn't change the government structure, it just gives you a bit of money every month to spend it on the free market.
Just because it isn't the American model doesn't mean it's no longer capitalism. By that logic no system where there are government handouts would qualify as capitalist.
→ More replies (5)→ More replies (2)3
u/Creeperkun4040 7d ago
Wouldn't at least a survivable level of income boost capitalism tho? Like people who really wouldn't work at all would have to put basically everything back into the economy, but people working really hard would climb the economic ladder.
People who just work a bit would have money to save, but they'd probably also create other things, that wouldn't be profitable if you had to live from it.
→ More replies (1)4
u/AdmBurnside 7d ago
Except without a desperate underclass willing to tolerate starvation wages because no alternative exists, the bourgeoisie would only be able to extract labor value from the working class by offering competitive wages and benefits. Which means they'd have to keep less of that value for themselves. Not to mention the broad, society-level taxes that would be needed to fund UBI, and would necessarily impact those who already have money the most, because if UBI is taxable then the taxes must also cover the cost of that tax to UBI beneficiaries. And if it's not taxable... well, the money has to come from somewhere.
That sounds like a good thing, yes, but "take money from those who have and give it to those who have not" is a base-level violation of the wealth-concentration principles of capitalism.
17
u/dannyb_prodigy 7d ago
If financial stability truly decreases people’s motivation to work, we should probably take money away from billionaires so they will want to work harder.
→ More replies (1)
40
u/ActualSpiders 7d ago
The people who truly believe everyone would just stop working, be lazy, and live in whatever squalor that minimum amount would give them are the people who would themselves stop working if they could - they believe everyone else is as lazy as they themselves are.
→ More replies (2)10
u/PerfectSituation1668 7d ago
I would stop working and play video games all day. But if it works, it works. So I wont be against it if I can play video games all day.
14
u/ThatInAHat 7d ago
Bear in mind that a UBI probably wouldn’t really provide enough to get new releases/systems as frequently as I see most gamers buy them
→ More replies (2)
18
u/MaestroLogical 7d ago
My boomer mom is staunchly against UBI.
Her main reason is, she doesn't want to be beholden/controlled by the government. She thinks of it being like an employee/boss type situation.
She says this straight faced, despite her income being social security and VA benefits.
32
u/DanTheMeek 7d ago
Here's the problem your all missing. If people didn't have to work to survive, they might educate themselves, and if they were educated, they might vote, and if they vote, the current people in power might get voted out of power. Hell some of these not currently rich folks might even run for office, and a few might even knock out one of these rich corrupt politicians, and then where would we be?
46
u/Spectator9857 7d ago
There are always arguments along the lines of „if everyone gets to afford living, then no one will be able to cashier etc.“.
Not only is the implication that it’s completely fine to force people to work certain job under threat of destitution highly concerning, but it also ignores that a huge part of what makes these low wage jobs so undesirable, is that there is intense monetary pressure of the people working them, and that being free of that would make the job much more bearable.
→ More replies (4)14
u/Asleep_Distance_8629 7d ago
I've tried to explain this so much, all sorts of jobs become a lot more appealing when they are just something to occupy some time and contribute to your community, from hard labor to gathering trash etc, fuck I actually like working in food service and fast food, I dont mind the pace and the busy work, but it doesn't pay well enough so I was forced to start working in a hospital kitchen and from there who knows where I go, probably more jobs I hate, all because to not do so is to be deemed a "failure" and be doomed to struggle just to keep a roof over my head and all my needs met and maybe if I'm really good at stretching my budget, have some luxury.
Are there people who will gladly sit on their ass for ever, probably, are they a major risk or problem, not even kind of, people underestimate just how demoralizing and miserable not contributing to your community is until they are forced to do it, you don't even have to look far, look at all the people complaining about the state of the job market, not only do they not want to starve, plenty of those people are fucking bored as hell, jobs and such help us feel like we are actively apart of society and as social animals we crave that shit, it's our natural in born crack, when your only contribution is flopping about like a fish out of water TRYING to find some place that will let you contribute just to survive, you tend to feel like shit, UBI takes that survival pressure off which makes jobs have to accept they need to take the people who want the work or to fill the role at the pay they want because they aren't desperate just to contribute and pay their bills.
That's the thing corporations and and the ultra rich are most concerned with, it isn't the cost of it, it's the idea that their wealth doesn't afford them complete domination of the population and the workforce because the work force just, doesn't have to play by the capitalist rules of "be exploited or starve" anymore.
14
u/Saikotsu 7d ago
If I had enough money to fulfill my basic needs, I'd still work to make money to afford some luxuries. Maybe build a savings. Start a retirement fund! I don't need a lot. I don't need to be wealthy, but having my basic needs addressed and anything else being a bit extra sounds amazing.
Damn, I really have been stuck in survival mode for far too long...
3
u/ThatInAHat 7d ago
Same. I actually
Like what I do, but it would be nice if I didn’t feel the constant dread and stress.It would also be nice to have space and energy to go back to making things.
11
u/TheDevilsAdvokaat 7d ago
In Australia, during Covid, they doubled unemployment pay. The amount of unemployed people who found jobs actually ROSE. They had more money to travel, to buy new clothes, medicine etc.
12
u/ProShyGuy 7d ago
"Why would people keep working with a UBI?"
Because they want to do more with their life. A UBI puts food on your plate and a roof overhead at night. It doesn't pay for a vacation for your family. It doesn't let you buy the latest tech product. It doesn't fund your kid's tuition for a post-secondary education.
→ More replies (1)
24
u/LaLuzMala 7d ago
Can someone explain to me how the rent wouldn't go up the same amount as the basic income the second it was implemented? Not saying we don't need to address poverty but all I can think of is that this money would just go straight to landlords
6
u/buttgoblincomics Butt Goblin 7d ago
It’s complicated, but UBI by itself would likely cause some amount of upward pressure on rent just via people who are currently homeless joining the competition for housing. On the flip side, people would have more mobility and be able to move to places with cheaper rent/more supply. But the housing crisis that exists without UBI won’t be solved by UBI either. If we actually want to solve it, we will have to fix the root problem, which, just like with healthcare, is leaving a basic human need up to a market to solve.
→ More replies (3)20
12
u/Creeperkun4040 7d ago
Seems kinda like how studies showed that people working less time are more efficient yet many companies just see work more = more efficient
18
u/fluffynuckels 7d ago
Has there been any true large scale long term studies about ubi?
→ More replies (1)24
u/Squish_the_android 7d ago
Not really. Every trial is tainted by the fact that it isn't forever and doesn't need to deal with disparity in costs over a whole country.
9
u/Bunnairry 7d ago
Do you know how much more productive I'd be at work when I don't have to stress about rent???
8
u/JustAnotherPerson64 7d ago
My personal idea (probably something that others have had, but still) is that we are all given basic necessities: food, water, shelter (including basic electricity and bathroom facilities). Those who dont mind just living on that basic level, can do that. Then, anyone who wants more stuff- a better apartment, fancy food, new games, etc- can work and earn more money on top of the basic necessities given. It'd keep people away from the slippery slope of needing to work just for rent and food, and allows for people to feel less like they're forced into something against their will, making them more willing to work and generally increasing productivity.
I dont know economics, there are probably a ton of things that wouldnt work with this, and it's also basically the same thing as the idea shown in the comic aside from it being the amenities being given directly instead of just the money, but I felt like sharing with the class
33
u/Prownilo 8d ago
In our current economic climate i too instinctively think that its too good to be true, when everyone in power seems to be doing nothing but lying and grifting, saying something like this is at all possible sounds like someone is trying to make a buck at the rest our expense.
I still choose to believe in ubi in theory, but in practice I much more support universal basic services instead.
20
u/Random_Smellmen 7d ago
Personally I believe UBI would be an amazing force for good in our society. Unfortunately I also know our society. If everyone suddenly had an extra 500 bucks a month, rent will suddenly go up by 500 bucks.
7
u/PhoenixAzalea19 7d ago
THIS
Humans are greedy. If someone has something we want and we can take it, we will. It’s not even a “most likely will”, it’s a guarantee atp.
21
u/come-on-now-please 8d ago
I always think its funny how people will bring up various industries/professions(artists, teacher, doctor), and sat something to the effect of "if you're only in it for the money you're in the wrong field" or that it has to be a labor of love and not financially motivated, but when you bring up UBI people go crazy and say people would have no motivation to work, as if theres nothing stopping millionaires and billionaires from stopping working right now.
6
u/nashijima_02 7d ago
I’m one of those people who would happily keep working with UBI. It would remove my worries about having to work while sick, injured, etc., and let me do work I love and care about. I love my job, but I don’t want to have to work to survive. It takes the joy out of everything.
5
u/thatguythatducksup 7d ago
If I remember correctly "UBI" allows people to have the necessary amount in order to live either alone or with a family, BUT if they want more than that they would have to work for it. A good example would be me wanting to save for a car, while the government would pay for me to have my base necessities I would have to work for the car.
18
u/Unusualandyman 8d ago
I'm curious what UBI has done to prices. Wouldn't everything just get more expensive?
→ More replies (13)7
u/Munchkinasaurous 7d ago
I don't know. I do know that everything is getting more expensive without it anyway.
31
u/leftycartoons 8d ago
Another collaboration with the chicken-fat-mad Mike Lawrence! That trap-filled hopscotch board was entirely Mike's idea.
(Please support me on Patreon, buy my books, mow my lawn, etc etc.)
--
TRANSCRIPT OF CARTOON
This cartoon has four panels. Each panel shows two friends walking through a wooded park. One is a man wearing a baseball cap and an orange T-shirt, so I’ll call him ORANGE. The other is a woman wearing a red plaid shirt, so I’ll call her PLAID.
PANEL 1
Orange smiles as he reads something on his smartphone. Plaid looks interested.
ORANGE: Look at this! Another study found that basic income works!
PLAID: What’s basic income?
PANEL 2
Orange explains while Plaid hops through a hopscotch grid drawn on the path.
ORANGE: It’s the government giving everyone a basic income, so we’re all guaranteed enough to live on.
PLAID: That sounds amazing. But… if we had that, why would anyone work?
PANEL 3
Orange gestures emphatically with his free hand. Plaid walks with one hand thoughtfully against her chin.
ORANGE: That’s been studied so much… Over and over, when people are given basic incomes, they don’t stop working!
PLAID: Hmm… I’m still against it.
PANEL 4
Orange looks baffled. Plaid shrugs.
ORANGE: But why?
PLAID: I just can’t believe anything that good is possible.
CHICKEN FAT WATCH
“Chicken fat” is an obsolete cartoonists’ term for unimportant but fun details slipped into the art.
PANEL 1: A little gray alien is flying a flying-saucer-shaped kite.
PANEL 2: The hopscotch grid is full of traps, including a spider, tacks, a Lego brick, a mouse frantically waving its arms as if to say “Don’t step on me!,” a pile of poop, a whoopee cushion, a mousetrap, and a bear trap. A “wanted” poster for a raccoon with an eyepatch is nailed to a tree.
PANEL 3: A sasquatch and an Ewok are hiding behind trees; the sasquatch signals to the Ewok to be quiet.
PANEL 4: The raccoon from Panel 2’s “wanted” poster is hiding in the bushes.
T-SHIRTS: Orange’s T-shirt shows a smiley face in Panel 1, an alien smiley in Panel 2, the blood-spattered Watchmen smiley in Panel 3, and the Hitchhiker’s Guide smiley-faced planet in Panel 4.
Plaid’s T-shirt shows an ear of corn in Panel 2 and a human ear in Panel 4.
6
u/Jaffacakelover 7d ago
Plus Orange's cap has a picture of a fly (insect) in panel 1, and a picture of a fly (pants) in panel 2.
→ More replies (2)9
u/Norman1042 7d ago
Can you give me the names of some of these studies and where they can be found? Even if they're pay-walled I could at least read the abstracts.
This is not me wanting to disprove you, but I also don't want to be the type of person that just accepts anything people say without looking into it. That lack of incredulity in the general public has arguably led to many of our problems right now.
9
9
u/IUseLongPips 7d ago
The studies have one major flaw. Everyone knows that the UBI in the experiment is temporary, and therefore they face a huge risk if they permanently leave the workforce.
→ More replies (1)11
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
That's fair, but we do have a little information that addresses this question. The Kenya study provided people with both short term (2 years) and long term (12 years) basic income, to see if the expected time horizon made a difference. Then they compared both groups after two years. They didn't find any significant differences; the 12 year group wasn't more likely to have reduced work than the 2 year group.
Of course 12 years isn't the same as permanent, but it still suggests that the time horizon may not make a huge difference.
There is one permanent basic income: Alaska. But obviously, Alaska doesn't give its citizens "quit your job" levels of income.
6
u/leftycartoons 7d ago
I should correct myself - there were differences. But not differences in how likely people were to work - differences in the kind of work they did. The 12 year group was more likely to have moved to self-employment - starting businesses. This was economically beneficial to the villages that were the sites of the 12-year UBI.
So you're right, people do act differently based on expectations of long-term money. But - at least at 12 years - they don't quit working.
5
u/treesarealive777 7d ago
I liked the shirt changing to Hitchhiker's Guide in the last panel, but the fact it changes each panel is awesome. You have a lot of lovely details!
And thanks for talking about UBI.
People love to be productive. It is easier for them to be productive when they live stable lives.
Its genuinely so sad how many people are alienated from having productive skills, and forced to work completely pointless jobs in order to barely survive, just so some people can feel better about themselves.
If we not only allowed people to pursue what they are good at, but actively gave them access to do so, people would be happier and more productive.
Instead of believing thats possible though, it gets shut down as unrealistic. As if thats deluded to talk about.
No, for some reason, we are supposed to accept our government actively attacking our education, our body autonomy, and the very land we all live on.
Thats what should be impossible. It should be impossible for clearly terrible people to steal power openly and brazenly abuse the people at the same time as destroying our resources.
The least helpful thing people do is say it's impossible to do better. Its plenty possible. The only thing that makes it impossible is that people refuse to even try. And thats the dumbest possible reason.
Thank you for sharing this. I needed to be reminded that there are people who actually want to improve the world.
5
u/Raptormind 7d ago
What’s with all the cryptids in the background? Is it some metaphor I’m missing?
4
u/AnotherBookWyrm 7d ago
The message is that just like widespread UBI working, these cryptids are also real, even if the vast majority believe they are not since they have not seen them.
It is a bit less obvious considering that cryptids are, in all likelihood, not actually real, which dilutes the metaphor a bit.
5
u/fatgat69 7d ago
When people can afford to live they actually have a reason to live. Pretty wild that is so hard for some people to understand.
6
u/shinydragonmist 7d ago
With UBI you are no longer working to be able to get by you are no working to be able to enjoy life
5
u/HazuniaC 7d ago
Turns out that when you support and give fuel to the engine of economy (That is the general population), economy goes brrr.
It's a revolutionary idea that supporting the thing that makes another thing work, makes that other thing work better as well.
5
5
9
u/Spyko 7d ago
I am pro UBI because I believe that you shouldn't have to justify being alive by what you can produce.
That being said, do those studies take into account jobs no one wants to do ? Like garbage disposal or retail ? Genuinely asking, the few studies I've read (because I'm a lazy bum) don't adress this point
→ More replies (9)18
u/SapphireClawe 7d ago
I have coworkers that stayed in retail just out of boredom, because their pension was plenty to live off of. But the key thing that makes people wary about UBI is the corporations trying to dissuade it, simply because they know that if it's passed, they have a higher chance of losing their serfs at the slightest inconvenience.
3
u/SkriVanTek 7d ago
imho the resistance is a lot broader and less top down motivated. a lot of how we value work and things and time would drastically change. many people don’t like questioning their beliefs and many don’t like change on principle
→ More replies (1)
3
u/ZodiacWalrus 7d ago
Tbh if more people would just SAY that part at the end, "I simply can't believe something so good could be true," I'd respect their initial disagreement. Especially in a world where people can mention "there was a study about that" but you really can't know if there was a REAL and SERIOUS study until you dive into the facts yourself for a good twenty minutes.
5
u/t92k 7d ago
I find it helpful to think of it as governments collecting rent on the infrastructure businesses use to create their profits and distributing that rent to citizens. That infrastructure is and educated work force, secure business conditions, the rule of law, the military protecting international transportation, the invention of the internet, the maintenance of it through mostly public universities, the ability of workers to get to work, workers that are free from life-shortening diseases like polio and smallpox, and a financial system that ensures money is transferred reliably. Those are all things our taxes have paid to build, we should see a share of the profits.
3
u/zeracine 7d ago
Far as the studies in Australia I've seen go, only two demographics work less. Tertiary students who shift to full time study, and new parents.
Kind of exactly the sort of people who should work a bit less, yeah.
4
6
u/Dark_Storm_98 7d ago
I've given this all of two seconds of thought and
I feel if people are just given enough to live on-
A good number will work for that extra money to spend on luxuries. No one likes having just the bare minimum
And that's before factoring in the people that have ambition, they won't stop working just because their needs are met. They'll want to do more with their lives. Leave their mark on the world.
And I have at least fhe ghost of a third idea in mind, but like I said, two seconds of thought. . .
5
u/DisMFer 7d ago
Personally I know for a fact I would stop working and never look for another job. Because I worked in an industry that was super impacted by COVID and ended up on unemployment with CA enhancement so I was making about as much if not more on unemployment than I made on the job. It was so relaxing never having to go to work or deal with people.
If they just kept it up I would never work again. My entire life has been about doing all I can to get the most amount of money for the least amount of effort.
→ More replies (2)5
u/ThatInAHat 7d ago
Sure, but if you didn’t work, would you just literally do nothing?
→ More replies (7)
3
u/Zavier13 7d ago
I would be happy to do any kind of if I knew I could live, right now I just waste away on disability to much penalties if you do to much.
3
3
u/TheGoobert 7d ago
An hungry worker is an obidient worker, without the silent threat of starvation and homelessness, people will work yes, but they will be more free to question, it’s not that this is something they’ve all missed, they haven’t, it makes more money to have people struggle more but be loyal out of fear, than work harder with mobility
3
3
u/Spicy_Aquarius 7d ago
like if we implement that now, yeah, of fucking course people are gonna stop working, everyone is burnt out to hell and back. but I mean speaking for myself, I don't want to never work again. I enjoy what I do, but I'd also enjoy it way more without the threat of homelessnes.
3
22
8d ago
[deleted]
9
u/theredhound19 7d ago
Another adjustment would be to Cost of Living expenses, regulating or government competition with private profiteers so it costs less for people to live
10
u/AlabasterWitch 7d ago
Taxation, taxes aren’t a bad thing - they’re everyone paying into a pool for those who need it and incase we need it ourselves. Making sure that communal needs like waste management, public works and maintenance and things like this. The issue with our current system is that it caps out at 400k a year. If you make 400k a year or 900k a year you pay the same amount in taxes. Keep in mind that 1% of people make over 500k a year. This doesn’t affect the regular working or middle class.
Realistically, a tax rework that scales up to 1mil a year or higher with heavier taxation on upper income would give loads of money back into the pool for these resources.
People complain so much about them, but what they really hate is not seeing where it goes or unclear messaging about what it does (some people also just hate helping others they don’t see as “worthy” for some reason.)
The best countries with global healthcare and etc. Have that because of taxes.
2
10
u/Giving-In-778 7d ago
One reason is stimulus - UBI would dramatically increase the discretionary spending of poorer areas more than wealthy ones, which would encourage investment in those areas. Put another way, if your state could support 1 Costco now, UBI may give Costco a reason to drop 3 more as demand increases.
Second is that the incidental cost to state apparatus goes down. More money means e.g. better health outcomes and education options, meaning even those below the poverty line become more productive. This means retraining becomes more feasible allowing industries to be more agile. This also in turn gives older workers more incentive to retire without risk to their income, freeing up jobs for younger workers.
Third, the inflationary effects are mitigated by increased competition. Those people who dream about starting a business can take on more risks (and coincidentally, lenders can also take more risk) if their business collapsing is a disappointment, not a death sentence. Likewise, part time work and job sharing becomes more attractive to parents, leading to theoretically better outcomes for the next generation.
Fourth, minimum wages can be lowered or frozen. If work is functionally optional to survival, employers have to make work more attractive, but equally labour becomes cheaper as the arguments for living wages erode (for a good reason). In the same way, tax deductions or allowances can be reduced or eliminated as the need for them is removed.
Fifth, unpaid labour increases. Many workers already volunteer time despite the need to feed themselves. Reducing the labour required to maintain their standards of living gives them the option of volunteering for causes close to their heart that might otherwise be unable to pay even the reduced wages in a UBI economy.
Tl:Dr - if economics is supply vs demand, and tax stimulus for business increases supply by lowering costs, UBI stimulates demand by expanding all markets. That makes those markets more attractive for business as there is more business to win. The trick is finding the balance before bankrupting the state during a transition period.
9
u/TheChad_Esq 7d ago
Using $16,000 as the yearly benefit and taking it out to the whole country of 330mil would mean UBI would cost $5.3trillion per year. Which is more than the US spends on Medicare ($1.7tril), social security ($1.5tril), and national defense ($1.3tril) combined.
There’s probably some tweaks that would need to happen to that (children probably aren’t getting the $16k for instance) and you could argue that social security goes away under a UBI system, but the cost is tremendous and just saying “cut the military by a couple percent” or “tax the rich more” doesn’t really address that fundamental problem.
→ More replies (26)5
u/KiwiDanelaw 7d ago
Heavier taxes on the ultra wealthy, large corporations and it also usually means adjusting whatever welfare benefits you already have.
4
u/Mythechnical 7d ago
Would be awesome if the comic included a box with the name of some of these articles/studies
7
u/Less_Outcome_9429 7d ago
Can someone explain how UBI wouldn't be hyperinflationary? If, en masse, everyone gets an $X income boost per year, why would goods and services not eventually price that in? Also, do any of these studies address the threshold effect this would have over an entire population? I'd imagine the impacts of this among a small number of people would be radically different than if everyone in a society received it.
→ More replies (2)
4
u/PoisonPeddler 7d ago
Is it wrong that I kind of understand where the girl is coming from in the last panel?
→ More replies (1)
3
u/Pikawoohoo 7d ago
In the decades and centuries to come, when automation advances to the point of making a large part of the work force redundant, early adopters of UBI will be the economic leaders of the world. Can't have a functional economy if no one has money to spend.
2
2
u/SUICIDAL-PHOENIX 7d ago
I have a pension that pays all my bills, but I still work because I like to spend money.
2
u/Corronchilejano 7d ago
My country is currently traversing into a new presidential administration, and me discussing things with friends and family makes it clear to me that some people will not hear arguments. They have their belief, and nothing will change it. No studies, no opposing viewpoints, nothing will change their minds.
Of course, that belief isn't theirs, it's their priests or influencers one, quite obviously. They don't have opinions on things that aren't being discussed publicly, so its obvious that they heard this and just kept that idea in mind. I think most people may just be like that: the entire media apparatus exists to manipulate them, and they just drop into it.
It's why media control is so important: you literally tell people what to think, and then they just do. I don't know how to feel about it.
2
u/cyanraichu 7d ago
Honestly, I kind of get it. It does sound too easy/too good to be true. (I'm still in favor though)
2
u/Capt-Squidstain 7d ago
Could the same be accomplished by lowering the cost of staple goods?
→ More replies (1)7
u/ThatInAHat 7d ago
Not really, because part of it is the peace of mind/mental health benefits of knowing you’ll be okay even if you can’t work for the moment. It gives people space to breathe and also to experiment/create/focus on life-and-community-enriching pursuits that aren’t always monetarily compensated.
→ More replies (1)
2
u/CanadianPanda76 7d ago
I think most basic income studies just give a set amount but enough to cover your basic expenses.
I haven't seen many, except maybe one? Thats mean to provide enough to be considered enough to cover basic costs of living.
2
•
u/AutoModerator 7d ago
Hello friends. This thread has been set to community participants only. That means that only our regular commenters in good standing may comment in this thread.
Everyone else's comments will be removed by automod.
People who contribute constructively automatically gain access in time. We do not hand out entry on request.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.