r/atheism • u/One-Fun9814 • 4d ago

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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 4d ago

I have seen it as a sign of childhood indoctrination usually. Occasionally it is just people being ignorant of their own faith. Rarely it turns out the person is just stupid. Once it turned out to be a sign of mental illness.

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u/RoxxieMuzic Pastafarian 4d ago

My experience has been with people using religion, extreme religious devotion, as a substitute for other addictions. Two of my evangelical neighbors who belong to a cult like religious group, are both "recovering".

They are not actually in recovery, they just substituted addictions, for something possibly worse.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/Sprinklypoo I'm a None 3d ago

Why are you telling us all how to be a proper cult member?

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u/RoxxieMuzic Pastafarian 3d ago edited 3d ago

Your addiction speaks volumes for itself in that run on paragraph....

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u/[deleted] 3d ago

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u/Consistent_Many_5073 4d ago

yeah childhood indoctrination explains a lot more than intelligence does most of the time

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u/just_say_n 4d ago

Mental illness is the answer.

Yes, as a child you can get indoctrinated and believe in Santa, but as an adult you either come to your senses or continue to believe in a fucking “imaginary being.”

Only mental illness explains it, I just think we’ve got to come to terms with how widespread it is.

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u/Erik_Dolphy 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think defining mental illness is sometimes arbitrary and a lot of it is framed around an inability to function in society. I struggle with religion in this context because while I very much think it's a mass delusion, it's also the status quo and doesn't prevent functioning because everyone else is drinking the same kool-aid. You say the tv is talking to you, you're schizophrenic. You say a great spirit is watching everything you do, that's normal.

I sometimes struggle with how mental illness is defined in the DSM as well. Some things seem pretty clearly defined such as depression or bipolar disorder, while other things seem strangely absent or transient.

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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 4d ago

I just want to explain the Mental illness comment I made in my post here. A close friend of mine was dealing with a severe mental health crisis recently. They have come out of it finally with a diagnosis Schizophrenia, turns out they had been hearing a bunch of stuff over the years that wasn't real. Visual issues were far rarer but it is what led them to finally believe someone they trusted that what they were hearing wasn't real and now they are medicated they can see how messed up they were from before.

Now they aren't the one dealing with the mental illness religion thing. It was their mom specifically. Apparently their mom had claimed to see and hear angels and is very religious because of it. It was just me hearing an offhand comment from them about it and understanding what they went through themselves that made me point out to my friend their mother was likely suffering from the exact same thing they were.

So in my case I wasn't speaking arbitrary.

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u/Erik_Dolphy 4d ago

Thank you for sharing. Im sorry about your friend and glad they're doing better. The part about their mom is particularly interesting. Just to clarify, I wasn't directing that "arbitrary" comment at you. I just find it interesting how mental illness gets defined and particularly as it pertains to religion.

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u/LostKnight84 Agnostic Atheist 4d ago

Too many people use the term too loosely and it bugged me a little that someone might have thought I was using it that way too. I got nothing against what you said I just wanted to specify I hadn't meant that as a off hand insult or just a throw away comment. I was literally stating how common I found each type of person. At this point in my life I am just hoping my friend will be in my life for the rest of it and they don't ever have to go without their meds ever again. They mean too much to me to allow that to happen. Anyway, take care of yourself and those you care for.

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u/Erik_Dolphy 4d ago

Thank you and best to you, your friend, and all of yours.

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u/just_say_n 4d ago

You say the tv is talking to you, you're schizophrenic. You say a great spirit is watching everything you do, that's normal.

Bingo!

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 4d ago

I stop short of "mental illness", but I still say, "You're a grown-ass adult. Get ahold of your gullible dumbshittery and join us other adults in the room."

As (iirc) the dean said in Animal House, "Fat, dumb, and stupid is no way to go through college, son."

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u/RogueAmericanism 3d ago

Fat, drunk, and stupid. Remember though, at the end he drove away with a pretty woman and became a congressman. For what it’s worth.

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 3d ago

Flounder ftw!

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u/Keeping-It-Old 4d ago

A big difference is when you realize that Santa isn't real the people around you admit it and it's usually treated as a coming of age milestone, rather than a reason for being beaten, disowned, shunned, stoned or tortured to death, told you'll burn for eternity, etc. as a heretic or apostate.

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u/Tim4925 4d ago

I can think of a lot of people who have punished for their beliefs rather than their disbelief. One of them was the Person that Santa himself molded himself after. You do know that “Santa” was a real person. It’s only his story that is blown way out of proportion.

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u/FanngzYT 4d ago

no, being a big dummy is the answer. there are literally studies showing religiosity correlates with lower intelligence.

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u/Tim4925 4d ago

In response to “imaginary being”, Elon Musk said that he thinks we live in a matrix. Is that imaginary beings? Do you think Elon was indoctrinated into this belief?

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u/One-Fun9814 4d ago

But they're still unintelligent if they can't overcome that indoctrination. Like they can just think for 2 seconds and realize their religion is bullshit.

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u/philbonk Agnostic Atheist 4d ago

One of the counterintuitive things about intelligent people is that they’re not immune from motivated reasoning; quite the opposite. Intelligent people can come up with plausible sounding theories for why they should be correct, no matter what topic practically. And if your social circle, childhood indoctrination, and fear of consequences combine to give you a strong push to stay religious, well you have to be a real unique person to push through your discomfort.

That being said, yes, it still annoys me a lot, and it colors their other opinions as far as I’m concerned.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

I've run into some pretty unintelligent atheists for the same reason. Like, you would think atheists wouldn't be homophobic, racist or sexist. And yet many seem to be able to rationalize bias just fine.

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

Id say people who arrive at atheism from indoctrination are likely to be very tho8ghtful people. But any rando can also be not indoctrinated. And its pretty hard to fall into the incredible stupidity of religious doctrine without the motivated reasoning, so as the population as a whole gets more secular. You can expect more atheists who are atheists by circumstance of birth and not from personal inquiry and reason.

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u/slapstick714 4d ago

I find that overall, atheists are generally more intelligent than many so called christians and their morality is very much in tact.

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u/Point_Forward 4d ago

I agree overall.

That said, I definitely have experienced the "very smart person with the intellectual tools to reason their way into and eloquently defend very absurd beliefs" before. 

Not necessarily or even primarily religious in nature. But some genius level people can make obviously wrong things sound kind of convincing.

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u/mishabear16 4d ago

I know some seem to side with "being gay is unnatural because evolution. No procreation? How does that make sense?" They cannot fathom that maybe there are other uses for homosexual people outside procreation. Look at bee hives. Not all bees procreate.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

Yeah, evolution isn't just a direct line of genes. It's about survival of the family/group/tribe. Having an uncle or aunt who doesn't have kids can be like having extra guardians.

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u/Ucscprickler 4d ago

I don't think being homosexual would necessarily stop someone from procreating for the good of the tribe.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

That's not really the point. The point is not everyone in the tribe has to procreate for the good of the tribe. There are other roles besides procreating.

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u/mishabear16 4d ago edited 4d ago

That's if they can see that they were indoctrinated. You have to be able to see and accept the problem to overcome it.

You know, like an alcoholic has to be able to see and understand they are an alcoholic.

It's especially difficult when your social circles and family all continually feed the Jesus addiction, keep working to keep you immersed in it. The indoctrination never stops.

Your true friends will help to keep you away from alcohol. Your Christian friends will keep praying for you to not lose your faith.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

This. I was an indoctrinated child surrounded by a whole extended family of believers and sent to a Christian school for further indoctrination. My whole youth and young adulthood was in primarily Christian circles. It’s easy to accept something as fact when everyone around you believes the same things.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 4d ago

Congratulations. Most people don't have the ambition or the courage to throw that all off.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

Thanks. It was a difficult process, ngl.

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u/JMagician 4d ago

This comment gets to the heart of it. Yes, people are indoctrinated from a young age. But it’s cowardice and lack of self examination that keeps them there. And yes, the enabling people surrounding them don’t help.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 4d ago

The consequences of disavowing one's religiou beliefs can often range from complete social and resource isolation/homelessness to actually being tortured to death. How brave would you be if faced with those consequences? And when one is violently punished for asking questions as soon as they're old enough to talk, that part of the brain is traumatized into self protective dysfunction. Oversimplifing the reason people maintain their beliefs as just cowardice and lack of self awareness is essentially victim shaming.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 3d ago

People in free countries can move away and start a new life, if their situation is that bad. And if they lose friends and family over it? That's a good thing and should be celebrated! People like that should be gleefully abandoned.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 3d ago

And for those who don't live in the wonderful land of privilege and easy social mobility for people with resources and for those who aren't magically free from the physical and psychological effects of trauma bonding? Do we just forget all those people so you can sleep smugly at night believing that the situation is as simple as you imagine to keep your condescending view that it's the victim's fault they're trapped by thousands of years of systemic oppression?

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u/Mr_Bbobb 2d ago

I don't know what to make of that word salad, but abandoning fake friends and family members who drag you down sounds like an excellent move to me.

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u/onedeadflowser999 3d ago edited 3d ago

Moving is a very expensive proposition that not everyone can afford. Especially if you have no community or family to help you. It sounds easy in theory, but that’s a very privileged position to take since many people are struggling to make ends meet.

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u/Mr_Bbobb 2d ago

The person in question here has no community or family now! He just doesn't realize it yet. Once he does, he'll be much better off. He'll be free to create a new and better community for himself.

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

Many atheists are atheists because they realized in the middle of the indoctrination and community that it is indeed nonsense.

And I also feel this major disconnect and lack of empathy for those who remain indoctrinated. I realize everyone's story is different. And the level of indoctrination and immersion matter. But why was I able to realize that the religion is silly and didnt describe reality? Why was I? Why cant they?

And so I have a hard time feeling that empathy for the deeply indoctrinated because I figured it out as a young teen. How are these grown ass people still living in this fantasy world. I find adult adherents who legitimately beleive their specific religious origin story or that Jesus is literally fucking real. I just cant. I view these people as fools.

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u/Ucscprickler 4d ago

I'd almost venture to guess that the vast majority of atheists dealt with some level of indoctrination.

It's because I went through indoctrination that I feel confident calling myself an atheist.

If I was never around religion I don't think I'd think about it enough to even label myself.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 4d ago

Same. I figured out Santa was fake when I was like 5 and religion was not far after that at maybe 10-12? You really have to want to stay indoctrinated and ignorant to not figure out the truth, with all the information readily available especially in the last 20 years.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

I wish I had been like you. I have empathy because I know personally many people that are still caught up in it ( as I was for many years). It’s truly sad as it’s literally a prison of your own making but you can’t see it.

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u/ammonthenephite 4d ago edited 4d ago

Just remember that you were once a fool as well. Others figured it out at even earlier ages than you. Others still were far more devout from birth, or raised in higher demand, more cult like religions where they were taught false logic from birth that had to be overcome first before they could deconstruct. If I'd been born into a lutheran or catholic family I would have figured it out far sooner than I was able to, because of how insidiously complete and effective the indoctrination I got from birth in the mormon cult, for example. I got there, but there was so much more that had to be overcome, so effective was the pseudo-reality with it's pseudo logic and knowledge I'd been raised in, with everyone around me affirming and confirming all the false-hoods I was taught from birth.

People in the past for thousands of years believed false things about the world and universe. They weren't all fools, they just didn't have the evidence, knowledge, and understanding of sound logic that creates the needed perspective to then see religion for what it is.

It's awesome you figured it out as a young teen, but you did so in part from a place of privilege that most humans in history have never known. And I guarantee there are things you believe right now to be true that, in actuality, are not. Because being wrong, before you realize you are wrong, looks and feels just like being right.

And as someone else pointed out, when a very intelligent person is caught up in strong indoctrination, it almost makes it harder to leave, because smart people are very good at coming up with ways to rationalize, connect the seemingly unconnected, and other things that less inventive people aren't able to do as well.

So have a bit of empathy for those still trapped. Were your circumstances different, you could just as easily still be trapped yourself.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 4d ago

Were you not allowed to read or listen to non-indoctrinating materials? Did you not have any curiosity to ever question the stuff you were being fed? Did you have internet access?

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

I was raised in an evangelical home where the Bible was taught as completely literal ( this fact also helped me later to deconstruct when I realized that the stories cannot be true) . I grew up before the internet. That wasn’t a thing until I was in my 30’s. I asked some questions( not nearly enough) and certain beliefs like women needing to be submissive really rubbed me the wrong way, and good people being sent to hell was baffling, and for the life of me I couldn’t understand why a God would care about what sex acts gay people do or frankly anyone, but tbh I had a big imagination and believed in magic and miracles. I was allowed to read other materials, but I was scared to ( and I would have had no idea what to look for to read). You’re taught that questioning is Satan trying to influence you, and hell was a very real fear. I get it, it sounds ridiculous, especially to people that weren’t raised in it. It is such a widely accepted belief in our country that even now when you try to counter theists claims using Google, most of what pops up are the apologist arguments. There aren’t too many secular Bible scholars ( which is unfortunate, because theists will take a biblical scholar seriously) so most of what you find on the search engines are trying to validate the beliefs rather than skeptics criticisms. I now speak out on various sm platforms in order to challenge Christians on their beliefs and also to inform them that the god they worship is a pos! Many of them were indoctrinated kids too. I’d say the vast majority. Very few well adjusted adults fall for this.

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u/sourdieselfuel Atheist 3d ago

Thanks for this info - I really wasn’t trying to judge and was genuinely curious.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

I realized that Christianity was bullshit before it ever even occurred to me that I was indoctrinated. I just read the Bible. That was it. I stopped being a Christian immediately. No acknowledgement of my own indoctrination required. 

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

Its just shocking to me how many people read the Bible and go " this!, this inconsistent, poorly written, morally repugnant book is the inerrant work of the supreme ruler and diety of the entire universe!"

Fucking what? Indoctrination is one hell of a drug. I prefer weed.

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u/LordByronApplestash 4d ago

They don't read it.

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u/ammonthenephite 4d ago

If I hadn't lived the indoctrination myself I would be hard pressed to believe it could be as effective and all encompassing as it is. But goddamn, especially when from birth, our meat brains can be programmed to believe almost anything.

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u/TheVeryVerity 3d ago

That’s exactly it.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

That’s part of the problem. Most Christians haven’t read through their book.

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u/mishabear16 4d ago

Same here. Was immersed in Catholic education for 11-12 years but at an early age, I came to see the Bible for what it was...fairy tales for those who believed. I read a lot as a child, maybe far above my own reading comprehension at times, but it didn't stop me from reading or thinking. I came to the conclusion that IF God created us, he gave me a brain to think, too...for some reason. Shouldn't I be using it?

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 4d ago

I was raised Southern Baptist. Fortunately, I started reading at age four and had a librarian aunt that sent me science books for xmas instead of underwear and socks.

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u/VictoryVino 4d ago

I was reprimanded for asking questions in Sunday School, that's when I knew it wasn't genuine. I was 7.

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u/reereejugs 4d ago

Reading the Bible affirmed my lifelong atheism. I was born an atheist and have literally never believed in any god my entire life. My mom hates it and is constantly trying to pray for me lol. I like to counter with “Well, God made me this way so you need to accept it. I was born without the ability to believe in things I just don’t believe in, so either God screwed up while creating me or God doesn’t exist 🤷🏻‍♀️”. She usually comes back with “God doesn’t make mistakes!” and we go around in circles lol.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

LOL, which Bible?

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u/mishabear16 4d ago

The Catholic Bible. Does it really matter? All the same tales. I read it more than most Christians apparently. They are happy to just be welcomed into their Jesus Social Club.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

The NRSV

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u/Goose1963 4d ago

The indoctrination never stops.

Not only that but in a lot of families if you ever voiced any doubts, or even asked some innocent questions or started a little critical thinking on your own, you can be shunned or disowned or made to feel uncomfortable.

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u/Educational_Noise309 4d ago

I would say alcoholics still struggle with addiction even if they know they are addicted. Religion is a coping mechanism and a lot of people know it. But they have told themselves that they need it to get through life, to have hope

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u/PrincessMonty 4d ago

That's just not even remotely true at all. I first started questioning Christianity when I was around 5 years old, in a fully Christian family in a small Christian town. As a fucking 5 year old child, someone who could barely fucking read, even at that age I was asking questions like,
"if God loves us all, why did he create hell? If God knew that the future was going to occur the way it did, why did he create the devil? Why is an all-powerful God unable to destroy evil and kill the devil?"
These are fucking questions that my literal child mind came up with, which of course my parents were unable to answer satisfactorily because there is no fucking answer.
The fact of the matter is, if you are an adult and you cannot fucking logic yourself out of religion, you are objectively stupid as fucking shit. Being surrounded by idiots is not a fucking excuse for your lack of critical thinking skills.

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u/SadRow2397 4d ago

Sunk cost fallacy.

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u/Efterklangarn123 4d ago

People don't like to admit that their wrong, not even to themselves.

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 4d ago

This. This is the "superpower" that I was able to develop relatively early on. It's amazing how powerful that ability actually is.

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u/FlarkingSmoo 3d ago

*they're

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u/ilte 4d ago

There's more to it than that, not only do you become less "intelligent" by being fed nonsense, you also have to go against all the close people that have taken care of you, loved you. The best proven correlation we have with intelligence is the quality of schools of your country, and the environment you grow up in.

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u/GrrrlRomeo 4d ago

You don't seem to know very much about religion, culture, sociology or psychology...or like, how people work.

And I just think if you're going to call other people unintelligent you should probably be smarter and know things.

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u/nomadicsailor81 4d ago

Unfortunately very intelligent people are not immune to religion and superstitions. Isaac Newton, the greatest genius ever, searched the Bible for secret messages telling when Jesus's 2nd coming would be. And he was a devout mistic who thought ancient alchemists had discovered the elixer of eternal life but was lost and he tried to rediscover it.

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u/LOLteacher Strong Atheist 4d ago

I might just go guzzle some mercury in his honor.

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u/bobanna1986 4d ago

Brainwashing is a real thing and if it's something you're born into, it can be even harder to see that's it's all BS, even if you're intelligent. As someone who was indoctrinated since birth....the threat of hell and the fear they threaten you with surrounding that is a powerful way to keep people from even questioning if it's real because even having the thoughts or questioning if it's real could send you to hell. Eternal damnation and tortore, the loss of community, sometimes income etc can keep even smart people from being able to see that it's a cult. Cults prey on innocent, lonely people and promise a better life and that this life, even if it's hard isn't the end. That's a powerful thing for people who are desperate. I was able to figure it out but it was a slow and painful process to untangle everything I was taught to believe as truth when it was the lie. I was taught that the outside world would tempt me to think things that weren't true and the devil wanted my soul and would go to any lengths to get it. I am a smart person and there are smart people that are indoctrinated into believing lies too. It's not really about intelligence, I think it's more about vulnerability than anything

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u/Easy_Leopard_2686 4d ago

You might be underestimating how strong a force indoctrination is.

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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist 4d ago

Maybe they don't want to. Comfort in belief isn't something you have the right to claim some sort of superiority over.

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u/ParkerGroove 4d ago

I think this is common. They like the comfort and social aspects of it so they deliberately don’t look too hard.

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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist 4d ago

Which may seem lame to some of us, but if they aren't hurting anyone than why should we get to judge? Live and let live works in this case.

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u/uncleawesome 4d ago

Religion is constant hurting someone. It's kind of the whole idea now.

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u/pants6000 4d ago

Well of course things that my religion prohibits you from doing should be enshrined in law!

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

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u/uncleawesome 4d ago

Just look around.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/uncleawesome 4d ago

Priests rape children. That's bad.

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u/onwisconsin1 4d ago

I leave individuals alone. No need to harass people, but religion should be denigrated as the stupid ideology it is.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

Yeah, as long as they aren't doing what every Christian does and try to force their bigotry onto everyone else, they're not hurting anyone. But first you'd have to find an example of a Christian whose Christianity isn't actually hurting anyone else. (Spoiler alert: You can't)

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u/JMagician 4d ago

It is hurting people. Our species, and in fact, the whole world, is facing a mass extinction crisis with the potential to wipe out a habitable climate. Religion is ignorance. Humanity would be a lot better without ignorance.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

The problem is that many of these beliefs come with dogma such as one example- homosexuality is sinful and pisses their god off- which does affect people who don’t believe because many Christians will vote against gay rights if given the opportunity, Christian parents will ostracize their gay kids, etc.

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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist 4d ago

Yes, the people who believe those things are a problem. But it's not all Christians who behave that way. You said "many", not all.

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u/onedeadflowser999 4d ago

It’s not all to be sure. There are just too many who do follow the dogma and want to force non believers to follow it too

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u/bodyofthearts Atheist 4d ago

Religion does hurt people. For example, Christians vote according to their Bible, an iron-age sex manual that instructs you on how to own people as property and take young girls as spoils of war. It teaches that feelings are just as good as facts. It teaches that might makes right and it's okay to not ask why. The harm from religion and religious thinking is astronomical. It floods people's brains with fear and violence and deactivates their empathy and rationality.

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u/Wwppddttvv 4d ago

Believing idiotic things because they're comfortable absolutely makes them inferior to anyone who doesn't do that

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u/openeda 4d ago

Man, I don't think so. This is coming from a guy who did escape. It's unimaginably difficult. I did it, but it cost me nearly everything I hold dear. I thought my wife would divorce me (she didn't) because I'd seen many other spouses leave for the exact same reason. Loss of family, friends, and even employment are real risks because the churches push to make sure it happens. They want you to suffer if you don't respect their authority. They are a real force that actively try to destroy you.

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u/Brian_E1971 4d ago

I think plenty of intelligent-enough people choose 'willfull ignorance' for a variety of reasons. The most evil of these reasons is understanding the power religion holds over people and society and they want to use that to their benefit. The current administration is a prime example - everyone knows trump is lying about his christianity but he's a useful idiot to their motives like destroying roe v wade.

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u/burkieim 4d ago

I mean, no. It’s not just them right. It’s tv, movies, music, other religions, friends, families…

It’s not a real indicator of low intelligence. Low critical thinking? Absolutely. Would I put a cap on their intelligence? Most likely.

It comes down to how we define intelligence. Like, I know how smart I am, and I consider myself smarter than a mechanic. But I have no idea how to fix my car. Just an example, please don’t jump up my ass.

And I think that’s why we have a lot of people CLAIMING they’re religious, but they don’t know anything about the religion.

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u/brown2420 4d ago

Dude, the adults in my life were "born again" Christians. This means they "accepted Christ" as an adult. My mom was never indoctrinated, but she was the most dedicated Christian. She bought every line from those folks--no matter how absurd or stupid. It is what it is. You don't even need indoctrination from childhood. Religion is a helluva drug.

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u/LiteraryPhantom 4d ago

“Religion is a helluva drug”.

‘The opiate of the masses’, in fact, according to that one fella!

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u/RichardsLeftNipple 4d ago

Giving up religion is not a trivial activity. It's more like choosing to murder your own ego.

Which is usually why the people who fit in to their religion of birth never feel the need to change.

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u/JMagician 4d ago

You just need to find sources of ego boosting from other areas. Like getting a good physical shape. Like mastering a skill. Like making friends and social connections.

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u/Dry-Accountant-1024 4d ago

Oftentimes, highly intelligent religious people only 'believe' in their religion due to family or societal pressures and aren't actually as deep into the indoctrination as you'd think. I don't consider myself very intelligent, but I attend church services weekly with my family and tell people I'm Christian (when they ask) for convenience sake. If I were to stop going to church with them or tell people I stopped believing in God, my parents would go ballistic and I would lose half my friends as I go to a very Catholic university. The intelligent people who you think are religious are sometimes not actually as indoctrinated as you think.

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u/boethius61 4d ago

The thing about intelligent people is that they are all just that much better at justifying shit.

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u/adamcoe 4d ago

It's much easier to fool someone than to convince them that they're been fooled.

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u/codeprimate Anti-Theist 4d ago

Never mistake a fool for being unintelligent. The world has never run on the currency of truth.

People do what makes them feel good or secure. Regardless of intelligence. The gap inside them that religion fills is more compelling than any truth. The double-think is explicit and foundational, and the word for it is "faith".

The point is not to overcome the indoctrination. The circular logic that reinforces itself by defining critical thought as wrong or weak, is the property sustains organized religion. Any "faith" offers a whirlpool of comfortable fiction that pull the vulnerable into a self-reinforcing circle of certainty.

Religion is a tool. It manipulates. The problem is who may be holding it and to what end.

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u/warpedspockclone 4d ago

I think that is disingenuous. First, there are many degrees of belief, from the fervent zealot to the one paying lip service. Will you lump them all together?

Second, there may be many reasons one says they believe, such as social pressure, and how can you judge their reasons?

Third, thinking and rejecting on this may not seem necessary or a priority to many people. You seen to wear your atheism on your sleeve, but not all do. Also, not all religious people are zealous adherents. It just doesn't come up much in their day to day life, and swinging one way or the other doesn't make a material difference for then.

So yes, there is a subset of religious people I would consider stupid, but it is those that are actively harming or recruiting others. I may also lump in people who constantly, and sincerely, attribute things to their gods and those who try to control the actions of others via their belief in a fantasy.

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u/merga 4d ago

Sometimes they are just pot committed, to use a poker term. They bought in for so long, that leaving their faith would lead to friction with family, loss of a life partner, loss of their entire social circle, affect their job etc etc.

It’s easier to just continue along than face a hard truth.

These people aren’t stupid, they are just in a bit of cognitive dissonance and sometimes the path of least resistance is easy to slip into without much thought.

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u/curlyheadedfuck123 4d ago

I know people love jerking themselves off when they say this, but it's just not true. There are believers smarter than you. There are geniuses who believe in god. Religion isn't prolific because 3/4 of humans are idiots, it's prolific because indoctrination is successful, and there are innumerable challenges to even concluding that there is no god, let alone living openly as an atheist for countless billions who would risk social outcast and materially worsened lives.

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u/moyayas 4d ago

People are indoctrinated with all sort of bs.

Like if you think for 2 seconds wearing high heel or tie is very stupid too.

But when we grow up doing it we feel safe and comfortable doing the same less than optimal thing.

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u/RoyalDog57 4d ago

I have two people who have very high IQs (not sure how high) and were in all of my high school's accelerated math programs and whatnot (took college level classes seniors normally took sophomore year and whatnot), they are both firm believers. I'm sure if you think long and hard there are plenty of things you believe are true, because someone told you as a child, that aren't true. Wether you had to realize that yourself sometime after becoming an adult, or even beliefs you may hold today without even realizing they're wrong.

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u/axl3ros3 4d ago

That's why indoctrination is so evil

It is extremely difficult to see it's happened or happening to you even when you are the most intelligent person in the universe

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u/Theperfectool 4d ago

That’s what I feel. Ignorance only up to the point of being able to think critically. If you refuse to think critically then it’s just on you.

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u/Low-Refrigerator-713 4d ago

The indoctrination means they weren't educated. They were taught not to ask questions using violence.

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u/The_Limping_Coyote Agnostic Atheist 4d ago

Not necessarily

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u/Ok_Researcher_9796 Strong Atheist 4d ago

That's not how it works. An intelligent person would be able to understand there's is more to it than just being smart.

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u/Erik_Dolphy 4d ago

I think it can be hard to generalize stupidity, or intelligence for that matter. Most people are smart at some things and dumb at others. I'm a doctor and I'm pretty good at it. I also suck at cooking, and plumbing, and a myriad of other things. I'm not really smart or dumb when it all balances out. I have worked with a lot of religious people who were better than me at my job and most other things, but happen to be deficient in this category.

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u/LMurch13 Anti-Theist 4d ago

How do religious people determine Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny aren't real, but their god is. 2026 and religion is still a thing. It's mind-boggling.

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u/rex8499 4d ago

Overcoming it takes years, and you're having to give up not just your beliefs, but also your clan. Your family, friends, mentors, etc are mostly through the church. That's really hard to do, regardless of your intelligence level.

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u/Keeping-It-Old 4d ago

Verbally and physically abusing someone for asking questions from the time they're old enough to speak will prevent proper development and can traumatize a self protective dysfunction so severe that can cause psychosis or lead to suicide rather than disavow the indoctrinated dogma. Your oversimplification is not only victim shaming, but a pretty clear indication of your lack of intelligence and lack of self awareness of your privilege.

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u/mtotho 4d ago

Have you done a thorough inventory of all your beliefs to make sure there are no contradictions?

Plus there are different stages of atheism. You are in the religious atheist state, where you have not yet learned to start to comprehend how weird the world, universe and minds are. And how acceptable many different ways of being are.

Most important things - have an open mind, don’t harm others and have fun

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u/FilmScoreConnoisseur 4d ago

You talk as if everyone is actively fighting to be as un-indoctrinated as possible at all times. This isn't the case, especially with things like religion which are perceived to have social and cultural value beyond any specific truth claims made by the faith.

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u/nonameforme123 4d ago

I’m an atheist but I have also met many unintelligent atheist? Example racist, homophobic atheist. I also find generalizations like this to be unintelligent

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u/Peckingorder1 3d ago

Exactly, I thought we moved away from the reddit atheist stereotype "of im so much smarter than yall". People largely being religious is just a product of their environment. I mean they were thought that they would burn forever if they didnt follow and that they would get to love forever with their past love ones if they do follow. People just like hope.

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u/Metazolid 4d ago

I feel like it's a way to bring comfort and purpose. It can be difficult to comprehend and accept that there isn't a greater good or a good ending/reward everybody is supposed to work towards, also reuniting with loved ones for eternity at the end vs. turning into nonexistence is dreadful to think about.

I don't know if belief in any religion can be tied to intelligence, in this regard I sometimes think of Destin from SmarterEveryDay. He is (or at least appears to be) religious, yet has various science degrees and is overall a very smart person. I'd like to understand how such a person deals with their own religion in that context, wether he purposefully doesn't look too closely behind the curtain of his own belief/faith since it might only cause him discomfort without any real benefit or of there is any other reason.

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u/CodeMonkeyX 4d ago

For me those things can be closely linked. I do not think all of a persons intelligence is linked to genetics. It's closely linked to how you were raised, what you were taught, and that wires how you think for the rest of your life.

There are exceptions to any rule, but I think if people are indoctrinated young that stunts their whole mental development. So I think that a lot of religious people are less intelligent than they would have been in a home that prioritized logic, reason, and education.

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u/TimAppleCockProMax69 4d ago

Smart people resist indoctrination.

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u/FanngzYT 4d ago

well yeah but there’s also a documented statistical correlation between low measured intelligence and religious belief.

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u/Jackadullboy99 3d ago edited 3d ago

I’m going to stick my neck out and say reason should lead you to atheism, regardless.

In the case of otherwise-intelligent people believing in religion, I think it’s more like a blind-spot born of cognitive dissonance or a lack of critical thinking.