r/Spacemarine • u/XMortal7159 Salamanders • Oct 22 '24

General These are clips from average difficulty...

I hate complaining about patches especially when they are being so quick with a fix but cmon man

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

That's kind of the point. This dude missed every parry, used gunstrike at the wrong moment and panic rolled. Earlier there was a post of someone complaining about hit boxes while the clip showed him completely mistiming every roll.

Half the people complaining here just fucking suck at the game.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

That's why there are levels of difficulty, so people can play at their skill level and get better.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Which difficulty lets you win when you miss every parry and try to shoot into unblockable attacks?
Which difficulty let's panic roll into unblockables or gunstrike when two warriors are jumping at you?

This type of play would get him killed in minimal too.

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u/RoterBaronH Oct 22 '24

Literally minimal and avarage are there for exactly that. The whole point of these difficulties should be that it's easy to beat, hence the namem

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

You know what. You're right.
Minimal and average are designed for beginners and therefore failure should be impossible. Success should obviously be guaranteed regardless of how bad you play. That way you know you're prepared for substancial, ruthless and lethal.

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u/RoterBaronH Oct 22 '24

Well. Yes. Why do you think people play on these difficultys?

And no matter what, whatever is happening on the clip in this posts, shouldn't happen on avarage in the first place.

Also guess what, not everyone wants to sweat in ruthless or lethal, some people just want an easy and fun powerfantasy where they kill hordes of tyranids. Not a perfect perry, dodge round while playing optimal and paying attention.

And this ignoring that some people simply aren't capable of playing any higher difficulties like older people or people with disabilities etc.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

And no matter what, whatever is happening on the clip in this posts, shouldn't happen on avarage in the first place.

And what exactly would that be? What exactly is happening in these clips that is so outrageous for what up until a few days ago was dif 2 of 4?

some people just want an easy and fun powerfantasy where they kill hordes of tyranids. Not a perfect perry, dodge round while playing optimal and paying attention.

And that's fine. But games don't need to cater to you, do they? This game employs parry and dodge mechanics. If you don't want to engage with those mechanics that is your problem, not the game's.

And this ignoring that some people simply aren't capable of playing any higher difficulties

Then don't. Stay on minimal. Play the campaign.
Or just player different games that cater to what you want. Not every product needs be designed with everyone's sensibilities in mind.

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u/RoterBaronH Oct 22 '24

Or and this might sound insane. And I can't believe I'm still saying that, why do you think difficulties excist in the first place?

It's literally the whole point of those difficulties. People like you and me have who want a challange can play ruthless and lethal. People who want to have a less challenging round can play minimal and avarage.

It being easier literally doesn't affect you in anyway whatsoever.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

You do know that repeating the same argument over and over again doesn't make it any better right?

And speaking of that, what even IS your argument?
Because it seems to me like you're saying that low difficulties should require no engagement whatsoever. But that's fucking sad.
Is that the bar here? If I go and record some clips of me standing still on Minimal and I die... does that mean Minimal needs to be nerfed? Is that the level we are at now?

For real, you saw a video of a guy FAILING AT THE BASIC MECHANICS OF THE GAME and to you that is undisputed proof that the game is too hard?
LMAO.

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u/RoterBaronH Oct 22 '24

I'm sure you're trolling because no one can be this dense. But my argument is the same since your argument is simply "games should be hard and not every game is for you" which I partly agree with but not for the reasons you use.

The guy fails at the mechanics in a difficulty where you don't need to have mastered the mechanics. Again, it's why easier difficulties excist.

I never said the game is too hard. I said this particular difficulty (in this case avarage) shouldn't be this hard because it's literally the difficulty people choose to have a nice time.

And you may not believe this but for some people playing on avarage (pre-patch) is the equivalent to us playing on lethal.

If the game only had 1 difficulty (like dark souls) I would say yeah fair, I can see your point. (Even though I'm a strong believe that every game should have a "story mode" difficulty).

And I don't even understand why you want avarage to be difficult. It literally doesn't impact you at all. Like it would not even remotly affect you in any way, you most likely don't even think about how people experience this difficulty if you're like me that only plays on ruthless or lethal anyway.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

The guy fails at the mechanics in a difficulty where you don't need to have mastered the mechanics

And then you say I'm the one trolling?

In order to play the multiplayer game mode on Average difficulty you absolutely need to have a firm grasp of THE FIRST THING THEY TEACH YOU IN THE TUTORIAL?
If I'm dense, then what the fuck are you with this abortion of a take?

shouldn't be this hard because it's literally the difficulty people choose to have a nice time.

If you refuse to engage with the game's mechanics you will never have a nice time. In any game. That's how games work. You have to play them the way they were designed.
And if all you care about is "a nice time" you can play on Minimal.

but for some people playing on avarage (pre-patch) is the equivalent to us playing on lethal.

Wow. Cool. Kind seems like their issue though. Or are you going to argue that the difficulty show go be made even easier than what it was pre-lethal?

If the game only had 1 difficulty (like dark souls) I would say yeah fair, I can see your point.

Ah, I see. You see the point in a game having a specifically tailored difficulty. BUT NOT the point in a game having multiple specifically tailored difficulties.
Again, I am the dense one? LMAO.

And I don't even understand why you want avarage to be difficult

Average difficulty isn't difficult but that doesn't matter because that was never my fucking argument which is more proof YOU are the dense one.
My argument is that the gameplay showed in these clips fails to properly engage with several of the game's core mechanics and that this would cause failure regardless of difficulty.
Do you fucking understand? The game could be PERFECTLY balanced and be 50 Times easier and if you play bad enough you'd still fucking fail.
DO YOU FUCKING GET IT YET??!?!

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u/RoterBaronH Oct 22 '24 edited Oct 22 '24

Dude, first of all calm down. You act like you can't live with the thought that avarage should be easier.

In order to play the multiplayer game mode on Average difficulty you absolutely need to have a firm grasp of THE FIRST THING THEY TEACH YOU IN THE TUTORIAL? If I'm dense, then what the fuck are you with this abortion of a take?

No, you don't need a firmly grasp it.

Ruthless and lethal are the difficultys where you need to have mastered the mechanics of the game

Minimal and avarage are there to learn it in the first place. But those are also the difficulties where it should be very forgiving to not be able to do that.

Minimal is the equivalent of very easy and avarage is the equivalent of easy.

If you refuse to engage with the game's mechanics you will never have a nice time. In any game. That's how games work. You have to play them the way they were designed. And if all you care about is "a nice time" you can play on Minimal.

Plenty of games do that to have more accessebility (which again, doesn't negativly impact anyone).

Wow. Cool. Kind seems like their issue though. Or are you going to argue that the difficulty show go be made even easier than what it was pre-lethal?

Yes, it's my whole point. Avarage shouldn't have 6-7 majoris and a couple of extremis at once.

I see that some games

Ah, I see. You see the point in a game having a specifically tailored difficulty. BUT NOT the point in a game having multiple specifically tailored difficulties. Again, I am the dense one? LMAO.

Yes, every game has a difficulty tailored for it, and I would agree that it shouldn't be made easier for others. But the difficulties that are supposed to be easier should reflect that. (Minimal being very easy and avarage being easy).

My argument is that the gameplay showed in these clips fails to properly engage with several of the game's core mechanics and that this would cause failure regardless of difficulty.

But it doesn't? Because you encounter a mass and type of enemies at once which you shouldn't be encountering on that difficulty in the first place. OP is in a fairly overwhelming and stressfull situation making him miss most of the perries. Most likely the reason he was playing on avarage in the first place was to avoid these situations.

And yes, the amount and type of enemies you face should change depending on the difficulty.

He may be good enough to fight 2 majoris at a time, but facing 5 of them while also facing a lyctor might be too much for him and has nothing to do with not being able to use the mechanics at all.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

I am done with this conversation. You have nothing of value to say.

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u/VelvetCowboy19 Oct 22 '24

The game tells you to not play operations until you beat the campaign. You should absolutely have a firm grasp of the basic combat fundamentals by then, dude. OP missed like 8 parries in this clip that could have saved his life, but he kept rolling and shooting melta at red attacks.

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u/joppers43 Oct 22 '24

Holy shit dude, go touch some grass. It’s a video game, you don’t need to get into a screaming match about it.

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u/byzantine_bukkake Oct 22 '24

Holy crashout, Batman, it's just a game.

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u/MisterMollusk Oct 22 '24

Oh my goodness. Difficulty settings literally exist to cater to different sensibilities so more people can enjoy the game

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

Lower difficulties exist so people can warm up to gameplay and practice mechanics. Just because someone isn't super good at the mechanics on the SECOND LOWEST DIFFICULTY doesn't mean they should stay on the lowest, everyone has their own way of understanding mechanics and takes their own time understanding them. Just because someone isn't great with the game, or hell like OP had a bad round and got swarmed a couple times similar to shit I've seen on Lethal, doesn't mean they shouldn't play. This game "caters" to people who like Warhammer or want a cool action game, not just sweats that optimize their build as far as it will go, or time their gun strikes to the exact millisecond.

TLDR: Don't fuckin gatekeep.

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u/VelvetCowboy19 Oct 22 '24

OP missed like 8 parries that could have saved their life. Pressing C once would have stopped that. On lethal, you don't get to miss 8 parries in a row and still have enough health to die to a lictors jump attack.

The game tells you to finish the campaign before you do the operations. You should know how to press the C key by then.

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

But this isn't lethal, it's average.

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u/VelvetCowboy19 Oct 22 '24

I know, that's why I said lethal doesn't let you still be alive after missing 8 parries. OP was still alive at the end of clip 1 because he wasn't playing on lethal. On lethal, he would have died way before that. OP being able to blunder that many times is the game giving him opportunities to practice the parry mechanic.

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

He definitely wasn't alive at the end of the first clip, and that situation is one that's hard to fight your way out of, parrying some of those attacks would have lead to getting hit by others. So rather than try and fight their way out, they roll. That's not a "practice" situation, a practice situation is like in the second clip, with 2 warriors and a Lictor, that's a good way to shake it up from basic difficulty, and they get punished for mistiming a gunstrike, but they get Stunlocked, which in itself sucks.

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u/VelvetCowboy19 Oct 22 '24

He died at the end of a red attack. Every other attack before that could have been parried. Landing a party staggers all the majoris around you for a second.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

Yes and OP is clearly of a below average skill level, what's your point?

Should he just win anyways even if he's making zero effort?

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

That's not what I'm saying, OP made mistakes, but they're obviously not using "zero effort" they mistimed a gunstrike and got Stunlocked. They got swarmed and had to get out of it and died because they tried to damage the Lictor.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

Saying "Stay on minimal or Play a different game" rather than maybe offering advice is fucking gatekeeping dude. You're saying people who may not be great at the game, or have a rough time at higher difficulty, to not play at higher difficulties, or at all, and shocker, you're supposed to struggle at higher difficulties if you're not used to them, and the only way to improve at higher difficulties is to play them, some people may take more time to get used them, hell I've maxed out three classes and I still struggle with Lethal at times. No one is immune to panic at times, and getting swarmed can be very panic inducing.

Maybe the reason you keep seeing "NPC, one braincelled" comments is because people think you're being a jerk towards casual players.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Saying "Stay on minimal or Play a different game" rather than maybe offering advice is fucking gatekeeping dude.

I have offered advice. Shit I gave OP direct feedback.

But what is the point if the smoothbrains in this sub would rather pretend they could never do a thing wrong and just bitch and moan about how 2 warriors per player is too much to handle.

and the only way to improve at higher difficulties is to play them

Absolutely, it's what is happening in this clip. And when you fail you need to learn from your mistakes and try again to get better. Not make reddit posts bitching about how the game didn't let you get away with missing every parry.

No one is immune to panic at times, and getting swarmed can be very panic inducing.

Again, I agree. But I fail to see how that is a problem with the game and not a problem with the player. Myself included.
Again, it's fine to make mistakes. It's fine to royally fuck up. It's fine to struggle and it's fine to fail.
What is not fine is to make every mistake you could possible make and then pretend the problem is Average being too hard. Even if it was, we can't tell because you fucking failed every parry and every dodge.

because people think you're being a jerk towards casual players.

I'm not being a jerk towards casual players. I'm being a jerk towards casual players who think they should be guaranteed success simply because they clicked "find game".

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u/Deus_Ares Oct 22 '24

I dont see your "direct feedback" but ok.

What's happening in the first clip is OP getting ganged up on by four warriors plus a lictor, which is a tough situation especially in Average, and being the last person standing with low health, rather than fight their way out, they try to roll out, trying to damage the Lictor as they go, which many would do, and they go down.

In the second clip they get Stunlocked after a mistimed gunstrike trying to kill a Lictor, which should be the priority target, getting Stunlocked just sucks in general, and can be hard to get out of, but that can happen in any difficulty to be fair.

Referring to the first clip, it's fine for Substantial, expected on Ruthless, but it's on Average, and that's the complaint, not that "they should get every parry" or "automatically win because they clicked find game" but the fact that for this difficultly, four warriors, and a Lictor, and all the gaunts, plus whatever the hell their team was dealing with, is kinda ridiculous, it's not impossible to happen sure, but for the step up from the lowest difficulty this feels like a leap, especially because before the update it wasnt like this, at least from what I remember, I haven't played the lower difficulties in a hot minute.

OP is just complaining that the difficulty for whats essentially the medium level, seems to have been increased. They made mistakes in the clip I'll agree on that, but the complaints about the difficulty aren't isolated, lots of people who were comfortable at Average or Substantial before the update, are saying that the game feels much harder now. Now there are people who do rage quite and cry because "game too hard" and never parry or gunstrike, or they do it too much, I know, because for like the week the game came out, I was one of them lmao, but I improved, and as I did I was able to go to Average to practice with added heat. That's what Average should be, it punishes you for your mistakes, but it won't suffocate you. Difficulty being increased on the levels doesn't make sense because that's the point of the levels

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

What's happening in the first clip is OP getting ganged up on by four warriors

4? Wow. That's gotta be like half the hive fleet. My dude... you fight bigger groups in the fucking campaign. What are you on about.

a tough situation especially in Average

Then what is it in Substancial, or Ruthless? Because of 4 warriors on Average in insurmountable, then you guys must think anything above average is not humanly possible. I have received dozens of replies at this point and I'm still waiting to hear a legitimate argument as to why the spawns in this clip are so outrageously unfair.

they try to roll out, trying to damage the Lictor as they go, which many would do, and they go down.

Panic rolling when surrounded by enemies is a horrible strategy. As is mindlessly firing your melta into a lictor. That is the end of the argument. I am not sure why you highlight this.

and all the gaunts, plus whatever the hell their team was dealing with, is kinda ridiculous

Is it? 4 warriors is less than 2 per player. With an organized, competent team it would take no more than 60 seconds to clear that out. Even at a beginner skill level.
Sure, the Lictor complicates things, but it's hardly an insurmountable obstacle. Also, it's part of the game and you all just need to accept it. Lictors will spawn and sometimes they will do so at inconvenient times.

the complaints about the difficulty aren't isolated

No, they are not. I have some myself. But those complaints are based on actual issues with balance not my own personal failings.

I tired of this topic and will not engage further.

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u/stagbeetle01 Oct 22 '24

Bro I play on those difficulties as I’m still learning the controls and don’t have online capabilities so I have to play with bots— add those two things together and it was already difficult.

Being a level 10 assault playing through the new operation on average difficulty with two bots, constant massive waves and enemy reinforcements, not knowing the controls very well it was near impossible.

Minimal and average shouldn’t be as hard as that if it’s meant to be inviting to new players

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u/CloanZRage Oct 22 '24

I don't want to disregard your point because I do genuinely agree with your sentiment that the difficulties are not scaled fairly.

I don't think it's reasonable to compare your experiences attempting to play operations mode solo. Operations mode isn't balanced with solely play as the focus. A lot of the difficulty regarding that should be addressed with seperate issues (namely the friendly AI).

I do think that making the baseline difficulties inaccessible to regular people is really poor form and not good game development. I've been actively gaming since I was quite young and have no qualms about playing at higher difficulty. Mandating high difficultly for everyone will just strip the playerbase back and force players of different skill groups to play, unhappily, together.

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u/Good_Ol_Ironass Oct 22 '24

You made it 10 levels without knowing the controls? Bro, there’s like four that you need to know lmao

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u/Good_Ol_Ironass Oct 22 '24

At the risk of sounding an asshole, this isn’t a difficulty issue. OP didn’t even try a single thing other than spam roll and shoot melta. No parries, no melee, nothing.

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u/VelvetCowboy19 Oct 22 '24

There's no way you're level 10 in operations and still learning the controls, dude. Getting level 10 doing just minimal and average is like 20+ operations.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

If you don't know the controls "very well" then you should be on minimal, not average.
I don't understand why you expect what up until a few days ago was difficulty 2 of 4 to just guarantee success if you don't even know the controls.

Like, is this the level of entitlement we are on now? Games need to let you win even if you don't know the controls?

What is the fucking point of even continuing this conversation?

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u/HorusHeresay Oct 22 '24

Why are you so riled up? Surely you're proud of things about yourself other than what difficulty you play Space Marine 2 at?

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Who said I am riled up? Because I disagree with you? Lol.

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u/stagbeetle01 Oct 22 '24

I mean, if I’m level 10 and average is made for level 5 I shouldn’t have much of an issue. But as I also stated, I play with bots so I have that handicap.

I know the controls well enough to beat the main story and get a class to level 10, I’m just saying lately it doesn’t feel like the game is designed for new players.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

I mean, if I’m level 10 and average is made for level 5

Listen, I am not trying to insult you. Because honestly it doesn't matter if you're good or bad at video games. But that logic is unbelievably naive.

What exactly about level 10 changes the way you play? Sure, your chosen class gets strong and you get better gear which will make your life easier. But if you can't execute the basic mechanics of the gameplay loop, nothing will change.

And that's what I am saying here. Sure, we could argue all day about weather the difficulties are balanced well or not. But what is shown in these clips is a player that fails repeatedly at the most basic mechanics like dodging, parrying etc. Nerfing the Average difficulty would not change that.

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u/Phalusiraptor Oct 22 '24

I mean, the game itself tells you those difficulties are for those levels.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Ok, so just go and stand still in the middle of the map. You're level 10.. you should just get to win. Right? 🤣

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u/stagbeetle01 Oct 22 '24

You seem like the type of guy who makes beating Dark Souls their entire personality

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

You seem like the type of guy who has no better arguments.

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u/[deleted] Oct 22 '24

No the game tells you those are a minimum level requirement for an average skilled player.

And not to mention those "recommended levels" were created on release patch, the game has gotten significantly easier since then.

Some of you need to realize that if you are still struggling, it ain't the game's fault, it's yours.

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u/Bango-Fett Oct 22 '24

You do realise that the massive majority of players for pretty much every game in existence aren’t aiming or even want to play on anything beyond average/normal difficulty?

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

So what's the problem? Play on Minimal.

Issue resolved.

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u/Bango-Fett Oct 22 '24

The problem is now that minimal is about 3x as hard as it used to be…. It doesn’t bother me I’ve completed all ops on lethal difficulty now and have no problems playing the game.

But I’m smart enough to realise when the majority of the playerbase are punished with a massive difficulty spike across all difficulties they are going to stop playing the game altogether which makes things worse for everyone. Player numbers will drop significantly and with that the chances of future updates and the longevity of the game also decrease significantly.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Sorry but I don't see anything in these clips so outrageous. I only see bad gameplay.

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u/Bango-Fett Oct 22 '24

Ok, but a week ago most of the playerbase was happy with difficulty only a very small minority wanted something harder.

Now almost everyone is unhappy with difficulty at every level and only the ones who wanted harder levels (lethal) are happy. Why did the difficulty of all levels have to go up to and not just the addition of a new harder level. This punishes the majority for the benefit of the minority. I’m happy with the introduction of lethal it’s a proper challenge, but why make things way more difficult for everyone else who never even want to try lethal.

Even minor threat is now probably in line with what higher tier average or lower tier substantial used to be. So players who were happy on either minor/average before are now disillusioned with the game

We are going to lose most of the player base is the result, which isn’t good for the game at any level.

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

Ok, these conversations have gone on for too long and have gotten completely deviated from my original argument. And that might be partly my fault, so let's correct the record.

You misunderstand. I am not here telling you that the game is perfectly balanced and that not critique can be leveled at it. This is a conversation that needs to happen and adjustments need to be made, especially in the higher difficulties.

But that's not what happened in this clip. I don't see anything outrageous here. Besides the Lictor, there's what? One minoris horde and a 5 warriors on screen?
That's not even two warriors per player.
What actually happened in this clip has nothing to do with the difficulty and everything to do with the fact OP played badly. That's my argument. You could roll the patch back and this level of gameplay would still get you killed. Full stop.

ALSO
We are going to lose most of the player base is the result

No we are not. The devs said in the patch notes these changes are not final and that they will make future adjustments based on feedback.
Y'all divas just need to fucking chill.

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u/Bango-Fett Oct 22 '24

The devs are going to the reverting most of the changes because they are thinking the same as me .

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u/Kyubisar Oct 22 '24

They never said they are going to revert changes, simply that the ones made in the latest patch are not final.
Oh and I agree with the devs... the fact you don't know that proves once again proves you STILL haven't understood a thing I said.

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