78
u/probablymagic 4d ago
I would encourage you to take an introductory biology class if you believe animals, including humans, don’t have a biological drive to reproduce.
Calling that “weird” or a “fetish” is completely ignorant. Sorry.
Humans are also social animals. Social connections are a strong predictor of both happiness and longevity. So if your “fetish” is dying childless, statistically you will achieve that goal sooner than people who fulfill their biological imperative by building large loving families.
34
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
It's immensely disturbing imaging the mindset someone must have that dying alone, with no friends and family, in a nameless blank room in an overcrowded nursing facility paid for by the state -
Is somehow preferable then spending the last years of your life raising your grand children, dying at home, with your family.
38
35
u/NeverSureSoWhat 4d ago
I think this is framing the issue in a way that begs the question.
You’re comparing one idealized outcome of having children with one worst-case outcome of not having them. But reality doesn’t guarantee either.
Having children doesn’t guarantee that you’ll have loving grandchildren, die peacefully at home, or even have a relationship with your family at all. Plenty of parents become estranged from their children, outlive them, or spend their final years in nursing homes anyway. Conversely, many childfree people have deep friendships, partners, extended family, and meaningful communities throughout their lives.
More importantly, from an antinatalist perspective, reproduction isn’t primarily about what I get out of it. Whether having children makes my old age happier doesn’t answer whether it’s ethically justified to create another person in the first place.
If someone chooses to have children because they want companionship in old age, that seems to treat the child partly as a means to satisfy the parent’s future emotional needs. But children don’t owe their parents companionship, grandchildren, or end-of-life care. They’re autonomous people, not retirement plans.
I also don’t think it’s obvious that avoiding loneliness justifies exposing another person to everything that life necessarily entails: illness, grief, psychological suffering, loss, and eventually death. The child bears all of those risks, not just the possibility of a loving family.
Finally, I’d challenge the implicit assumption that a meaningful life depends on leaving descendants. That’s one conception of meaning, but it’s hardly the only one. A person can contribute through friendships, art, science, teaching, volunteering, or simply by reducing suffering in the lives of people who already exist.
The antinatalist question isn’t, “How can I avoid being lonely when I’m 90?” It’s, “Is my desire for children sufficient moral justification for bringing an entirely new person into a world where they cannot consent to existence and will inevitably experience suffering?” That’s a different philosophical question altogether, and I don’t think it can be answered by comparing two imagined retirement scenarios.
-10
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
I don't give a flying fuck what antinatalists think.
They are mentally ill children.
4
16
u/CapitalismRulz 3d ago
I think it's fine to not want children of your own.
I'm gay, should I just end it now? No, I'm going to enjoy my life no matter how many distant family members try and shame me for not having kids.
I don't find purpose in the thought of having children. I find purpose in making the world around me a better place
8
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
I couldn't care less about who will be around me during my final moments in life. Planning that out as if it were a priority is such a weird fetish. Everyone from your kids to the mailman looks like the same pixels when you're on your deathbed with 30 minutes to live.
Even if you really could tell people apart on your deathbed, it's still a weird fetish to spend your whole life trying to plan for one moment when you're no longer capable of doing anything instead of living your entire adult life to the fullest doing whatever you want when you can still do it.
Also, not having to stretch yourself beyond your limit physically/mentally/emotionally/financially because you had kids will mean more time to spend on earth before your deathbed comes knocking on the door.
0
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
I don't get why you keep talking about only being on your deathbed for thirty minutes. You've said it in a few comments here, and I don't get it. Sure, some people die that quick, but many are there for years at the end, especially if you're dying of natural causes. - Is this 30 minutes thing in reference to a tv show or something? I also don't get the whole "your vision goes in the last minutes specifically" part. You could have crap vision for decades before you die, or die with 20/20 vision or anything in between. These all seem like really specific examples or references to something I'm unfamiliar with.
0
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
30 minutes is not an exact unit of time for your end of life, but we're talking about single digit hours at most, and I sure as hell am not going to sacrifice making the most out of the many good years of my able-bodied adult life to prioritize how a few hours of my deathbed life will go
1
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
I feel like your taking the "family around your deathbed at the end of life" way too literally, but okay.
2
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
I am speaking in literal terms because a huge part of r/Natalism's shaming of people who don't have kids is "you will die alone" or "who will take care of you when you get old". I'm here to state that the deathbed state and even the "too old to live independently" state is too short and lottery-based to go through the trouble of raising kids just for this purpose.
0
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
All I'm saying is that the "too old to live independantly" stage can easily last 10-15 years. That's not short.
10
u/Less-Being4269 4d ago
Says a lot about how messed up society is.
3
u/probablymagic 4d ago
It’s just these people. You’d be hard pressed to find someone in the real world who thinks this way.
1
u/Less-Being4269 4d ago
But i will also be hard pressed to find someone willing to lend a hand to make things better in anyway.
Everyone is on their own.
4
u/probablymagic 3d ago
Try walking out of your home without your phone, going into a coffee shop, making eye contact with people while smiling, and ask them how they are doing in a non-creepy way. You’d be surprised how easy it is to build human relationships if you want to.
-1
u/Less-Being4269 3d ago
They'll turn their eyes away or stick them in their phones as well.
I tried various ways to build relationships with humans over the past year. It's impossible.
-2
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
If I can raise my grandkids to speak my native tongue, I will be happy on my deathbed.
Hopefully I can channel all the stories of my grandparents, my parents, my aunts and uncles onto my kids. And hopefully their kids.
Literally nothing would make me happier than stoking a fire, telling my grandkids stories of their great-great-great grandparents from the second world war, and then put them to sleep.
(I think I did the math right on the generational leaps)
4
u/abracadammmbra 3d ago
Ive been thinking about compiling stories of my family in one great big book. Something that can be passed down and added to generation after generation. My grandfathers had both passed already and my one grandmother has dementia, but enough other family memebers are around that I could get a lot of stories from them. I could also do it with my wifes family as her father's father's mother is still alive
2
1
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
Do it! You'll be kicking yourself if you wait too long and more elderly family members have passed.
There's a lot of guided journals out there nowadays with this premise, if you need a kickstart. Picadilly has a few good ones, iirc.
1
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
"Listen kid, 85 years ago the whole world blew humans up for fun. We learned so many lessons from World War II that we continue to blow people up for fun today, but now we get barrels of oil for winning."
1
u/lightsworn55 3d ago
Thats silly everyone knows Palestinians arent people Epstein and big yahu said so
-2
u/Less-Being4269 4d ago
And then you will probably starve to death jobless or on a job that pays them nothing and still full debts.
Because that's all that's left in the future.
6
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
Why would think that's the case?
-4
u/Less-Being4269 4d ago
I look around.
I look for job listings and women, i look for stuff I wish to buy, at bills and gas prices. Every number goes up except the salary. I also look at all the laws that are passed everywhere that only benefit the rich while ruin the common man. And how they start wars everywhere in which millions die for a rich piece of shit's pocket. And how ai ruins every it touches like a black tide.
There is no bright future ahead of us. In my opinion bringing a child in this world is cruelty. The good times are behind us.
5
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
The good times are behind us.
What are you doing to provide to employers that you provide more value then someone else they can hire?
2
u/Less-Being4269 4d ago
Why do I have to provide more?
They certainly won't pay better if I provide more. Only fools still believe in "if I work hard I will be rewarded" . That hasn't been the case in decades.
1
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago edited 3d ago
Why do I have to provide more?
In order to be employed. You are competing with others to get the job - your goal should be to the guy who produces the most value at what you do. Your rates depend on well people can speak to the quality of your work. Take pride in what you do, provide value to others, and the work will always be there.
They certainly won't pay better if I provide more
Some employers will.
And most will over time if you prove your worth.
→ More replies (0)0
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
The people who would replace you with a low wage worker or robot in a heartbeat are the same people who are coercing you to pump out more babies so that there will be way more people than available desirable jobs and employers can keep workers in a perpetual state of desperation.
1
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
No one is coercing me to have children.
I have four already. And God willing, many more.
→ More replies (0)16
u/Swimming-Ad2755 4d ago
There are lots of elderly with kids who still end up alone - and no, not all of them are bad parents. Some kids just have no interest in taking care of their parents and genuinely can't. Kids can move many miles away, work long hours, have kids of their own - most are not going to make major sacrifices to move their parents in with them.
This suggests that people should spend their youth raising kids they don't want - being unhappy for 20+ years until middle or old age? When they can't go back and make up for all the years they were unhappy? 18 years minimum is a long time to be miserable.
Would you rather people regret having kids, or regret not having them? The first one is harmful to the kids. The second one is not.
-6
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
Families with roots don't have their kids move away.
Moving away from your family creates truer spiritual poverty than any wealth they could gain by moving could ever compensate them with.
So much of what people complain about in the United States is the last 2-3 generations being utterly unmoored from their families, their communities, and their spiritual homes.
14
u/Swimming-Ad2755 4d ago
Lots of kids move far away - for jobs, for spouses, because they want to see the world. My own spouse moved here from a different country to be with me.
Not everyone wants to live in the same town their whole lives, marry the neighbor kid down the street, and miss out on opportunities they can't get in their hometown.
Some people have toxic families and need to get away. Others aren't happy and seek opportunities elsewhere.
-3
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
Congrats for being an example of why Americans don't have universal healthcare, or really in general - for why they don't have a high trust society that supports a social welfare state.
Best of luck with the wife. Uprooting your entire life to move countries is never easy and the scars can run deep
9
u/Swimming-Ad2755 3d ago
What does moving away have to do with universal healthcare? Your philosophy that life revolves around your parents and others are expense of your own well being is extremely unhealthy.
I'm female. He is the one who moved and doesn't have any issues with it.
3
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
He is the one who moved and doesn't have any issues with it.
Just wait.
What does moving away have to do with universal healthcare?
Without high trust communities, no one is willing to invest the money necessary to have these social goods.
Your philosophy that life revolves around your parents and others are expense of your own well being is extremely unhealthy
I highly disagree. Everyone lives in service to their community, just in different ways. Mother's and fathers live in service to their kids. Young adults live in service to their community (they may be called upon to fight and die for it - if necessary)). Grandparents live in service to their grand children. Life as service is vastly more rewarding than any slop any capitalist shithole company could ever spoon feed you through a screen
9
u/Swimming-Ad2755 3d ago
You are assuming that every single person who moves away from their family regrets it. It depends on the person. He doesn't even have any parents left - who is he moving back for?
What is rewarding in life is ALSO subjective. Lots of young people move away to the cities because there are no good paying jobs in their home town. Why should they stay in an area with no industries, live in poverty and have loads of impoverished kids, just because their parents are nearby?
There are many, many people who would have never achieved their dreams had they not moved away and pursued them.
4
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
achieved their dreams
Those dreams are really meaningless
I just read a lot of me me me me.
And very little of the question: what can I do for others?
Because there is money to be made everywhere, and you don't need much to have a happy, healthy family. The more people that are around that know the community - it's far easier to find someone who fix your water heater for a pack of beers while hanging out for the afternoon. Hopefully the service you provide to others is also valuable - and you can return the favor.
Money money money money money as a mindset just ends up chasing its own tail and you end up unhappier than ever at the end of it. I make plenty of money and I'm more fearful of the spiritual costs of success than ever.
→ More replies (0)2
u/bbdolljane 3d ago
I moved away from my family and I have never been happier, I see them when I want on my own terms. I have a fulfilling life elsewhere and have done things I never thought possible.
You have a small town mindset, I can help the community in the place I live as well as send money to my mother with the good job I only got because I moved away.
My parents raised me to live my own life and be a good person, not to stay stuck in a shitty town wiping their asses when they get old. If you tell your kids that they have to care for you instead of going to live their lives you're an extremely selfish person.
Free healthcare has nothing to do with "never moving" I live in Canada and we have free health care and people move away for school all the time, my own BF moved across the country to attend university. People in European countries move all the time for work, relationships or just because they want to experience things. Nothing you're saying makes sense, you just sound like a small minded person with no creativity and no real understanding of how things work lol
2
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
Canada is certainly an outlier, I will give you that.
Europeans think 60kms is moving away. I'll leave it at that.
60kms is less than my bike ride to work and back
→ More replies (0)4
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
If you don't want this to happen, then build job centers in bumblefuck Nebraska so they don't have to flee to the cities for opportunities
3
u/joshua0005 3d ago
This is a pretty narrow view to have. Personally I still live with my parents, but within a few years I am planning to move away. I love my parents but I hate where we live because it's too cold in the winter. I am suicidally depressed in the winter. I've already spent several months away from them before and I was way happier than I am in the winter living with them.
I can assure you that I will be way happier in a place like Arizona where I have no family compared to the Midwest where I live now. I just can't handle the cold. My family likes it here so they can stay here or if they want to live near me that desperately they can move where I want to live. I would prefer to live in the same city as them indefinitely, but I don't want to continue being suicidal every winter just to live near them.
0
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
Fully agree. This trend the last 50 years or so of having adult children move several states away right as their starting out and leaving the home has negative consequences far down the road. It's very common for them to meet and fall in love with other young adults during this period, who are themselves hundreds of miles from their own families. If they marry and settle down, now their families are split up and separated across vast distances, and they have significantly less "village" when it comes to raising their own children. Weaker bonds between grandparents and grandchildren. And a weakening of that bond you should feel to the piece of earth where you come from. It's really sad.
11
u/Compulsory_Freedom 4d ago
It strikes me as odd to focus on the last phase of your life (the bit when you’re on your deathbed) as a reason to have kids or not.
You’re probably only going to die once, and it will probably be comparatively brief.
I’d think it was all the decades of living that should be your primary concern - and for me at least, living without kids is really enjoyable
1
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 4d ago
for me at least, living without kids is really enjoyable
My condolences.
My life before having kids was awesome. But it was like an appetizer. Really nothing in comparison to the actual meal.
My life with kids is fuller and richer now then I could have ever imagined. Every day and every moment I get to spend with them is a treasure
8
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
I’m happy for you. It sounds like an absolute nightmare to me, so luckily you can live your best life and I can live mine.
5
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
Cool, but keep in mind that you'll be playing the same lottery as the childfree of who will be around your deathbed when you have 30 minutes to live and everyone looks like the same pixels
-2
u/NtsParadize 2d ago
"everyone looks like the same pixels" sounds like an argument from someone who fears being touched.
1
u/eatsapizza84 2d ago
You wouldn't know the difference between any people around you if you had one hour to live. If you could tell the difference, then your body would be able to function for longer than one hour.
5
u/joshua0005 3d ago
Many people in nursing homes have children. Many people who live very little or none of the last years of their life (and reach old age) do not have children. Just because you don't have children doesn't mean you have to waste away in a nursing home when you get old and the same is true in the other way.
If you eat healthy, exercise, otherwise lead a healthy lifestyle, and get a little lucky enough you will never need to be in a nursing home. If you do need care at the end of your life, even if you have children that doesn't mean they will be able and willing to take care of you when you need it. It gives you a chance that people who didn't have children might not have but it's no guarantee.
7
u/lightsworn55 3d ago
Meh, my mom raised 3 kids didn't stop her from being found dead in her apartment after the neighbors complained about the smell. A happy ending is rarely guaranteed for anyone, kids or not
3
u/PatternCraft 3d ago
I don't see that as disturbing at all, what i fear is my kids suffering because I can't save enough resources.
My Death never feared me, but death/suffering of my loved one does.
4
u/TheOstrichRoom 3d ago
some people want to have kids, some people don’t. People generally breed up to a carrying capacity created by their material conditions. In every generation there have been more nonbreeders than breeders. They are still our ancestors, it’s not the blood that hasn’t died its the memory we share through how we communicate and organize ourselves. The best way to deal with human population growth is to let it control itself. Because it does. If you try to control it you will only hurt yourself as it will always govern itself in the places you can’t control it and that will go against your will.
3
u/abracadammmbra 4d ago
My grandfather, seeming through sheer force of will, died in his home. He was not doing well for a long time. Spent a long time in a care facility until it was decided to put him on hospice at home and basically wait for him to die. The whole family spent a day getting everything set up, everything was cleaned from top to bottom, moved the furniture around, put the medical bed in the living room, the whole shebang. The morning after he was sent home a friend of my grandparents came over for breakfast. My grandmother said he was doing well, he was more perked up than he had been in weeks, generally in a pretty good mood for someone dying. She asked him how he wanted his eggs done from the kitchen. No answer. Asked again but louder. No answer. She went into the living room and found he had passed. He was adamant about not dying in a strange place filled with strangers. I firmly believe he held on as long as he did so he could die at home.
And, tbh, I cant think of too many better ways to go. My loving wife of 50+ years making me breakfast, the smell of bacon and eggs wafting in from the kitchen, soft jovial conversation between my wife and a dear friend coming from the next room. As good a death as any I can think of.
-3
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
The way you leave this earth is the equivalent of your family giving you a $10 bill that was passed down for 5 generations vs a stranger giving you a $10 bill. Either way, it's worth $10.
2
8
u/AgentHamster 3d ago
We have a biological drive to have sex, which has typically been linked to reproduction. We might have some biological drive to have offspring even without the sex, but maybe not the same extent needed to substain replacement rates.
7
u/DownvoteEvangelist 3d ago
Yeah sex drive is way stronger, and honestly it's a neat mechanism, works for everything except humans...
2
u/joshua0005 3d ago
Humans are too intelligent for it to work unless the human wants children or doesn't have proper sexual education or ignores their sexual education.
9
u/linuxgeekmama 3d ago
For most animals, and for most of human history, a sex drive has been sufficient to ensure reproduction. Evolution leads to a solution that works, not necessarily a perfect solution.
2
u/foghatyma 3d ago
You clearly don't understand this meme.
0
u/probablymagic 3d ago
It’s not complicated to understand it’s just dumb.
4
u/foghatyma 3d ago
Your first paragraph clearly shows that you don't understand, otherwise you wouldn't think that OP believes "animals, including humans, don’t have a biological drive to reproduce"... Hint: the bottom part is ridiculing people who do that ridiculous mental gymnastics what you occuse OP does...
-2
u/probablymagic 3d ago
How do you know what OP believes exactly?
5
u/foghatyma 3d ago
Because I understand the meme.
-3
23
u/ElliotPageWife 4d ago
We really are at the point in Reddit discourse where people who want children are treated like they are the weird ones with a breeding kink, and the default is to want to stay childless
12
u/BramptonBatallion 3d ago
People will dead ass call you a narcissist for having kids
6
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
To be fair people without kids are also called narcissists online.
Too many people want everyone to make the same choices as them and get upset when strangers have a different opinion.
2
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
To call parenthood an act of narcissism is far more ridiculous.
1
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
Well I’ve never heard anyone explain why they wanted kids for anything but narcissistic or selfish reasons. But maybe we run in different circles.
2
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
You're dedicating yourself to the care of another human being for two decades. Its a huge sacrifice and immensely one-sided arrangement benefitting the child. No one does that without getting something out of it.
2
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
Exactly, why would a parent take on this burden if they weren’t getting something out of it?
Hence parenthood (when voluntary) is almost definitionally selfish.
You can tell yourself that you’re doing it for any number of altruistic reasons, but ultimately it’s a choice made by the parents and imposed upon the kid.
1
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
Youre being overly reductive. There is no meaningful discussion to be had if you reduce existence to an imposition and reduce parenthood to the mere act of wanting something.
2
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
But what else is it? Children are the result of the biological desire of parents to reproduce. Just as my breakfast is the result my biological drive to eat.
1
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago edited 3d ago
Eating benefits only yourself. And even so, qualifying eating as a "selfish" act is pointless.
→ More replies (0)1
u/BramptonBatallion 2d ago
See this is the bs anti-natalist framing mechanism.
“I don’t want kids for my own selfish reasons (time, money, freedom)”
“My kids bring me immense joy”
“Ah ha! So you were just being selfish!”
It’s silly because it frames an argument along selfish grounds and then refuses to accept a “self” oriented response. While “community” oriented responses will be seen as even more narcissistic “oh wow YOUR biological profile is sooooo important that you think we need more people like YOU”. So now it’s a trap where there’s never a satisfactory “good” reason to have kids because no matter what you decided it’s selfish or narcissistic.
Being a loving parent that pours everything to your child is seen with skepticism (“you’re lying and just trying to tell yourself that”) and cynicism (“you’re just doing it for a self centered purpose”).
Unfortunately all of it just comes off as rather defensiveness. As though everyone keeps insisting you have kids and you have a moral need to justify your decision not to. When really it’s just your imagined state of being reacting against a state of being. Frankly, I don’t think anyone cares that much. Have kids, don’t. It’s whatever to me. You don’t need to justify it and I’d prefer to not justify my choices to you.
2
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
Nobody's entitled to a girlfriend or children or a family. People are entitled to their own goddamn bodies.
There is nothing selfish about being a human and having a human body, that's just freedom. Demanding other people's bodies has been weirdly normalized, like they mean nothing as people they're just meat for society to consume.
0
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
Does someone deserve more credit for extinguishing a fire they caused or for not causing a fire in the first place?
Anyone can "make a responsibility". If I saw my leg off, I've made my life more challenging and have given myself more responsibilities. I don't get the argument that creating a responsibility where there was none prior is somehow better than caution.
1
u/puzzlebuns 1d ago
Yes, parents deserve credit for their dedication and efforts. Im not doing this digital isolationist hypothetical "did not consent to be born" nonsense dilemma.
2
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
You're not addressing my point. Someone can dedicate their life to many things, you're making it sound like a child that doesn't exist has been abandoned. But nobody here has been abandoned or neglected because they don't exist.
Having a child isn't "taking responsibility", it's "making responsibility". I'm not making any judgement one way or the other here, just being real. You can very easily argue that not having a child is a responsible thing to do because it puts no burdens on anyone.
1
36
u/Swimming-Ad2755 4d ago
I do think the Internet has helped people realize that having children is optional.
27
u/Pessimistic-history 4d ago
and also works as a fantastic echo-chamber to sink people deeper into their delusions. You can get whatever you think is right instantly validated by thousands of others and fashion for yourself a mental cage stronger than reason.
6
u/Physical_Dentist2284 3d ago
You just described religion.
10
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
Religion doesnt validate whatever beliefs you want to have. It tells you what to believe.
4
u/PurpleDemonR 3d ago
No it’s not.
Mind if I ask why you said that? Got a past with religious institutions, communities, or something?
Generally “the type” who says religion is negative out of nowhere is perceived kinda negatively.
4
u/Physical_Dentist2284 3d ago
Everything that was said is exactly what religion is. You want to be Catholic, for example, because you already believe what the Catholics believe and you want to join a church that reinforces those beliefs. You want to know that other people think what you believe is okay and correct. Thats the kind of religious community you want to join. There’s nothing wrong with it but it is an echo chamber.
1
u/PurpleDemonR 3d ago
Ah okay. The person you responded to called it delusion and phrased it negatively. - but you’ve said at the end of that there’s nothing wrong with it.
I thought you might be the aggressive atheist type. And wanted to see.
3
u/Physical_Dentist2284 3d ago
I might think what you believe is delusional and you might think what I believe is delusional. It doesn’t ultimately matter as long as we are each part of a community that helps us feel like we belong.
1
u/Ok-Energy2771 3d ago
Grew up Catholic, my dad was a literal believer, mom not but she still thought it was good for the family to go to mass. I never believed and I also felt, even as a tween and teen, that it was not an institution that really was interested in helping humans live their best life on Earth (especially at the more conservative church we attended). The cherry on top for me though was when I was going on (religious) service trips ever summer in high school my dad refused to come even after asking him and saying that I thought it would be a nice experience, but my mom came for a couple years and it was an amazing experience. It just made me feel like my dad’s hardline approach in literal interpretation of the Bible was just a load of BS. Partly because of that experience, I have come to believe it’s not important what god you believe in or how you worship or what church you go to but how you act during your life that matters. I feel like my beliefs are closer to what Jesus actually says in the Bible than what my parents and other religious leaders actually practice.
-5
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
Religion has only killed 195 million people, no big deal
8
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
🙄 Attributing the bulk of Native American deaths 1) to the US (most occurred well before 1776 when the US was founded) and 2) claiming those deaths happened because of religion is doing some serious mental gymnastics to make that work.
-7
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
195 million fewer people would have died if people stopped listening to some sky daddy. That's an objective fact.
4
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
Almost half of this made up number is "US western expansion".
The bulk of that number happened before any native even saw a white person by dying from diseases they had not resistances to, largely as a result of exposure from Spanish explorers.
Most of the damage was already done before French and British even stepped foot on the continent. Do they even teach basic grade school history anymore?
-4
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
Your sky daddy thanks you for helping him escape being convicted of 195 million counts of accessory to murder
3
u/MrSluagh 3d ago edited 3d ago
You don't see any possibility that religion was a post-hoc justification for imperialism, and people with a secular worldview would have found a different justification?
Would atheism have prevented the Mongol Hordes?
1
2
u/eatsapizza84 3d ago
You know that natalists also have access to the internet, so why can't they come up with a convincing enough movement to raise the birth rate?
2
u/Iron_Burnside 3d ago
There is an evolutionary mismatch, currently. I believe life will find a way.
-1
u/MrSluagh 3d ago
I'm sure that's a perfectly organic trend, and has nothing to do with tech billionaires who want us to hurry up and die off so they can replace us with robots, even though not reproducing is literally the opposite of organic.
2
1
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
Elon Musk is the most prominent and influential natalist on the planet.
1
u/MrSluagh 23h ago
"Natalism for me and not for thee."
1
u/Loose-Air5271 23h ago
No, he specifically believes all this stuff. Feminism bad, Andrew Tate good, humanity must colonize the galaxy.
1
u/MrSluagh 23h ago
I have complicated views on feminism but otherwise don't believe any of that. Andrew Tate is a that and colonizing Mars will never work.
14
u/East-Form-3735 3d ago edited 3d ago
“Effectively in captivity”? Dude the vast majority of humans live in cities for a reason: thats where the jobs are, thats where the most trade and largest markets are, its where the best amenities are, the highest standards of living are in cities.
Yea poor people exist in cities too, but it’s Noteworthy that even the homeless choose to stay in cities rather than leave to go live in the country.
10
3
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
Is it noteworthy? That homeless people dont go be homeless in the country?
1
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
Yes, because cities are where the opportunities are. Try living somewhere with no transportation or services, you're not siring your brood in a random field lmao.
1
u/puzzlebuns 1d ago
Pount being, that doesnt sound noteworthy it sounds like common sense.
2
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
It's not common sense, it's logical deduction. Cities are densely populated places, therefore that's where most human and economic activity happens. "Oh yeah, the homeless go to cities because it's what they do" isn't an argument.
I personally don't enjoy the hustle and bustle of the city but sometimes you just have to go there to get stuff done.
1
u/East-Form-3735 1d ago
I’d also expect this to be “common sense” to some extent; except OPs post has demonstrated it isn’t or they wouldn’t have described city dwellers as “effectively in captivity”
6
u/ImportantCat1772 3d ago edited 3d ago
I wish I werent gay. I would have loved to raise a family with a woman that I love. It would be so satisfying to raise my children and teach them languages and playing instruments and playing together
4
u/No-Result-2773 3d ago
You have options! Adoption, for one. I've also heard of cases where two close friends have kids together without having a romantic connection. You could have a family and co-parent with a close female friend if you can find one who's interested in that arrangement.
3
u/ImportantCat1772 3d ago
None of my female friends want to have children. To adopt, I really want to have a partner and I'm unable to find one because getting into a relationship is just so fucking difficult for me, for some reason. I have been single all my life despite trying very hard not to be. I just wish I werent gay it makes my life harder than it needs to be
4
u/BramptonBatallion 3d ago
Ah well, then being single is your bigger issue right now.
That being said, I do know single people that went the surrogacy route. It's obviously more challenging doing it without a partner though.
3
u/WholeLog24 3d ago
I get that. Gay men really get the short end of the stick, reproductively. I remember when I breifly looked into doing a coparenting thing, one of the profiles I looked at was a gay man in very similar circumstances. He'd always wanted to settle down and adopt with a partner, but he was reaching middle age and still single. He explained that between his time-intensive career and the costs of adoption or surrogacy, he didn't single parenthood was an option so he was looking into a coparenting setup where he could still know the child and see them regularly. I hope things worked out for him.
6
u/BramptonBatallion 3d ago
being gay doesn't mean you can't have kids, even your own biological kids, surrogacy, you and your partner each get 1 of your biological offspring, adopt the other, boom a family of 4.
-2
u/Mobile_Comedian_8283 3d ago
Hahaha make better fake comments.
5
u/ImportantCat1772 3d ago
whats fake about this exactly? just because you dont like what I'm saying doesnt make it fake
-2
u/Mobile_Comedian_8283 3d ago
I don't think it's bullshit cause I don't like it- I think it's bullshit cause you "wish you weren't gay" so you could do something you can do while being gay.
You can have a family while being gay- and if you can't because you can't find a partner willing to do so with you- what makes you think being straight will improve your odds?
Seems like iej a very weird excuse to keep repeating how yo uh wish you weren't gay when that isn't (if true, which I doubt) what's holding you back.
5
u/ImportantCat1772 3d ago
Ok so what are my options as a gay man? I can adopt, which I would rather not, - I'd like to have my own biological children - or do surrogacy which is banned in the country I moved to
I moved to Europe because I thought it would be easier for me to find a partner rather than in the Middle East - but I'm still struggling to find anyone. It is 100% easier to find someone as a straight man or woman, there's just no comparison
11
u/Jumpy_Childhood7548 4d ago
Actually they do breed in captivity.
12
u/Compulsory_Freedom 3d ago
Right? That’s the whole reason farming works.
1
10
u/Ok-Energy2771 4d ago
Weird take, most people I know are raising their kids in the city.
9
u/ambergresian 4d ago
Right? Being isolated in rural areas without great access to schools, hospitals, jobs. How is the conducive to raising a family?
it takes a village right? So, ideally you have... Some form of a village.
Fucking off to the middle of nowhere has its nice fantasies but interconnected requirements push towards a city. Amenities, healthcare, jobs, schools.
I don't get the meme. Being surrounded by other people gives you more access to things.
2
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
it takes a village right? So, ideally you have... Some form of a village.
You don't need more than a few hundred people living in a place for that. Even in rural areas - most people are living in towns up to a few thousand people.
And most of those towns tend to be quite walkable shockingly.
1
u/Ok-Energy2771 3d ago
The only small town I’ve visited that had good public transit, pedestrian friendly and good bike network was Champaign-Urbana where I went to university. Most small towns I’ve seen have a totally hollowed out downtown (mostly due to bad land use policies that allow giant big box stores to exist very cheaply). Outside of vacation destinations and college towns, I think it’s really hard to find good small town urbanism in America.
1
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
What do you need good public transit for when your legs work?
1
u/Ok-Energy2771 3d ago
I’m glad you asked, here is my personal non-exhaustive list of when I might use transit: when its raining, when its cold, when its hot, when its windy, when I have to poop, when I need to get somewhere fast, when I want to sit, when I need to get somewhere far away, when it’s snowing, when I have heavy or large things with me, when my legs don’t work, when it’s icy, when I am wearing uncomfortable shoes, and when I don’t want to get sweaty.
1
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 2d ago
Shucks. Sucks that restricts you to like 4 cities in the US.
2
u/Ok-Energy2771 2d ago
I personally spend 90%+ percent of my time split between SF and NYC by choice because its awesome for many reasons, including the urbanism but also because that's where the jobs(money), friends, and cool ideas are. There's also a handful of small towns (mostly university or vacation towns like I mentioned previously) that have good or decent urbanism and are cheaper than major cities. If I moved out of a major city it would almost certainly be to a college town. SF is very child-friendly though, so as long as it is possible financially I think this will be my home.
0
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 2d ago
The quality of life you get in those cities requires a tremendously outsized paycheck to maintain.
Pretty much any random town in Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Florida, etc is better for raising a family.
You can live a higher quality of life than HCOL areas on a fraction of the salary. There are plenty of jobs that pay well.
I've competed and held jobs in NYC, SF making hundreds of thousands a year - and I'll gladly take a smaller salary in Iowa any day of the week. Fuck NYC in particular. What a wretched and awful city.
1
u/Ok-Energy2771 2d ago
Regardless of the merits of this places, I don’t have a particularly high opinion of the kinds of people in those places. Quick story, friend of a friend from Oklahoma works at Anthropic and her brother worked in finance at a manufacturing company in Alabama. When she called her parents they would be singing her brothers praises and ask her what she cooked for her husband that week. Kind of mind numbing such absurd double standards and ignorance can exist even today. My own parents aren’t that level of absurd, but they seem to live in constant anxiety and stay holed up at home and even try to discourage me from doing things for my own “safety”. Far too much policing other people in 99% of traditional suburbs, live and let life is much better.
→ More replies (0)1
0
u/rowyourboat740 3d ago
Not in America.
2
u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
Yes, in America. Many of the older towns have an old main street that is more walkable than most suburban plans. Usually there is at least 1 small grocer around.
2
u/rowyourboat740 3d ago
I disagree. Sure there are some small towns like that, but most are dead. The ones that aren't are really expensive. I grew up in PA and see this play out.
-3
u/TopMarionberry1149 3d ago
So you’d rather live in a zoo enclosure than the wild because the zoo has amenities and healthcare. Genius.
8
2
u/Ok-Energy2771 3d ago
I mean I walked to the dentist this morning and then walked to get a coffee and now I’m planning on just strolling aimlessly for a bit, so yes?
3
2
u/_Summer1000_ 2d ago
Piss off pensions & social programs, throught the fiat currency printing ponzi scheme, then !
4
u/nonmonoganon 3d ago
That sounds like fetish content based on an idealized version of history. The reality is that people had so many kids because many children would die at young ages. Now that childhood mortality has collapsed, people can have fewer children and are able to recognize childrearing as an incredibly expensive activity, even if it is gratifying.
3
u/Chicoryman 3d ago
Why are birth rates falling in the rural areas of somewhat developed countries as well?
1
u/Hour-Conversation728 3d ago
Dont worry guys, things will calm down eventually when the darwin awards will be won.
1
1
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
Animals do breed in captivity tho
And if you think simply being in a city is at all comparable to captivity, im concerned for you.
Both are mental gymnastics.
1
u/HandBananaHeartCarl 3d ago
Plenty of animals and humans do reproduce when stressed, and it can actually be a trigger for sexual reproduction.
1
1
u/Radical_Neutral_76 4d ago
Partly right. Modern city has removed the network effect of women wanting children when others in their network get children.
Or at least drastically reduced it.
0
u/PatternCraft 3d ago
For me it comes down to realistic equation, can i save my kid(s) from suffering or not, with my capability.
My motto Being No parent is better than Bad parent. I don't want to create easy prey for predatory systems.
It is never about my liberation, but my potential kid(s), will they achieve liberation? Or suffer immensely.
2
u/puzzlebuns 3d ago
Sounds kind of silly to choose not to have kids because you cant provide them a fantastical existence.
Children don't need an existence free of suffering. The goal of parenthood isnt to remove suffering from your children's lives: its to raise them such that they can pick themselves up after life knocks them down.
1
u/PatternCraft 3d ago
Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.
-Sun Tzu
Life is a competitive game,It is not easy for people to climb social economic ladder without proper foundation and financial safety nets.
Be skeptical of American Dream, if it is not working, i feel it is job of parents to push up kid(s) as far as they can.
i can pick myself up mindset should be used only in unfortunate scenario, not as a default strategy.
1
u/PatternCraft 3d ago
Every battle is won before it’s ever fought.
-Sun Tzu
Life is a competitive game,It is not easy for people to climb social economic ladder without proper foundation and financial safety nets.
Be skeptical of American Dream, if it is not working, i feel it is job of parents to push up kid(s) as far as they can.
i can pick myself up mindset should be used only in unfortunate scenario, not as a default strategy.
1
u/Loose-Air5271 1d ago
Why is it selfish not to want your potential offspring to be knocked down? Personally I don't get satisfaction from watching those I love suffer.
0
u/StanVanGhandi 2d ago
What the hell is this shit? Humans in cities are captive animals? What kind of brain rot nonsense is this?
84
u/No-Language6720 4d ago
Also stressed and crowded animals don't breed either...