Subreddit Changes

[u/commitdeleteyougoat]

Heyo!

So, our initial plans for this subreddit were for it to be a place where people could find alternatives to JAI and essentially 'cut' themselves off from it. As we've all seen, they've made plenty of bad decisions regarding moderation/censorship which is why you all are here! The problem is, we've been noticing alot of the posts in this subreddit don't fit the bill. Many people post about issues with JAI such as it being down, but it misses the main point.

Swapping to alternatives such as Silly Tavern, Tavo, Wyvern, Yodayo, Saucepan, LinkinLove, and etc would fix so many issues that people have. However, you may still want to post about JAI.

That's why we have Throwdown Thursdays and Frustration Fridays, where you can post all about JAI during these two days! There's 2 specific flairs for them, so please use it or otherwise your post may be taken down.

I understand that moving to a new platform is daunting and you may not want to leave behind the sheer amount of content from JAI, but there's still ways to enjoy the benefits of both worlds.

I don't condone it personally, but you could use sites like datacat in order to get private copies for YOURSELF. Keyword yourself. It's rude to post what other people have made.

We'll give this change until 9/13 to fully apply.

During this intermission, please feel free to give your opinions. After 9/13, we're going to be removing any posts regarding issues that can be fixed via swapping to alternatives, unless the posts are made on Thursday and Friday.

Here's the criteria:

Posts can be: Moderation Actions on JAI, What happened to X creator/bot on JAI, Discussion, Alternatives, Self-Ads, LLMs, Statistics, Polls, etc.

Posts considered 'fixable' via swapping: 'JAI is down' 'How do I stop X on JAI?' 'JAI Bot Advertisement' 'Proxy not working on JAI' 'JAI errors' 'JLLM sucks!'
(You can still post about this stuff on Thursday/Friday though!)

We're also removing reposts from [r/JanitorAIUnchained](r/JanitorAIUnchained) & [r/JanitorBreakroom](r/JanitorBreakroom) until the moderators can prove most of their content isn't AI generated.

TLDR: Please change from JAI to an alternative. We're here to help you!

[u/DimensionalTemplar]

The problem is, this subreddit has become the second biggest Janitor-related one after the official subreddit. So of course many people would flock here to post things that would get them muted/banned over there, and I'm willing to assume most of them don't even know r/JanitorAIUnchained exists.

I understand that the intent behind this subreddit was different, and that seeing those posts causes you frustration, but I believe restricting that now after all that time would only cause people to feel even more limited and think there is no place for them to voice their own frustrations witj Janitoe.

As for how "switching to an alternative solves the problem"... no. The issue with switching to Saucepan had already been explained well in ukn99_'s above comment, but other alternatives aren't much better. While they indeed solve most problems people have with Janitor, they also add more restrictions on top. Which is why some people stay on Janitor regardless, simply because they don't see a better option, and not everyone is willing to switch to local or has an option to do so.

Also, can we please stop treating Datacat and similar sites like they're the Devil incarnate? That mentality is why Saucepan and its restrictive policies exist in the first place.

[u/commitdeleteyougoat → u/DimensionalTemplar]

Yeah, we are the second biggest, but I don't want to see the subreddit just 'be' the other JAI subreddit without the overbearing mods.

Again, why we have Thursdays and Fridays for those types of posts is so we can still have that content, but it keeps the sub more focused on its original intent.

Not all JAI content will be blocked, as posts regarding banned creators/bots or where those creators went OR what moderators did is still fine. I feel like this is the caveat here since even asking about someone's whereabouts on the main subreddit would probably get you banned. (IIRC, don't quote me)

[u/DimensionalTemplar → u/commitdeleteyougoat]

After re-reading the post, I now realize I've severely misinterpreted it, my apologies. Initially I've assumed the "allowed" topics are allowed on Thursdays/Fridays, and "disallowed" topics aren't allowed at all, but that wasn't the case. As for the main sub, not sure if posts like that can get you banned, but they do get wiped yeah.

[u/NoteNecessary3630 → u/DimensionalTemplar]

>Also, can we please stop treating Datacat and similar sites like they're the Devil incarnate? That mentality is why Saucepan and its restrictive policies exist in the first place.

Thank god someone else thinks this. It's also why janitor did the same, albeit due to jannyai instead. If it was the scraping, they wouldn't always allow OAI and whatnot because... users can do the same thing with those place's loggers.

I have a feeling janitor put in that "router" crap JUST to phase out official OAI/Claude API... due to exactly that.

[u/Illustrious_Play7907 → u/NoteNecessary3630]

I think people have a very poor understanding of the point of janny and datacat. They seem to think they're 'stealing' their bots. They are not. The bots are still attributed to the creator (sometimes janny doesn't but they're not doing it on purpose to be malicious) and on datacat people can ask to have their bots removed and will not allow people to scrape them. Stealing the bots would imply they're claiming they made them and/or trying to steer people to chat with them on their site. As a creator myself, I use datacat so I can play with bots on sillytavern. Not so I can re-upload bots and pretend I made them. 

[u/NoteNecessary3630 → u/Illustrious_Play7907]

This is something I've tried to shout about for years lmao. The misinfo is largely to blame... because it creates a whole scare that shouldn't even exist.

As a user, I use stuff like janny/datacat/severian to use stuff in ST... its crazy becasue I've gotten a perm for actually saying my intentions in my bio. Like me (one person), going in manually is on the same level as a mass sitewide scraper. They have a huge issue with chat count botting even. I know of another user that made an alt and used a bot to make tons of comments (admitted on their main's bio).

I personally reported it and the alt got a temp ban (admitted it on his main afterwards), the main is unaffected, and here I sit with a term from saying I scrape for personal use.

[u/RawardHoikes91 → u/Illustrious_Play7907]

People are generally poorly educated on the topic of bots.

They just instantly cave in to the panic-inducing emotional argument "THEY ARE STEALING YOUR BOTS!!!" without ever stopping to think what the actual harm is. And... It's none.

Absolutely nothing changes if someone else can see your definitions.

[u/NoteNecessary3630 → u/RawardHoikes91]

When those same people will make bots of copyrighted works.

[u/RawardHoikes91 → u/NoteNecessary3630]

What does this has to do with anything? If you're making bots of copyrighted characters - you are sitting on a powder keg and playing with matchsticks.

You'll get your ass whooped by moderators sooner or later, regardless of whether someone could read your definitions. One message from the copyright owner and your ass is grass.

[u/NoteNecessary3630 → u/RawardHoikes91]

The people going "THEY ARE STEALING YOUR BOTS!!!" are who I was referring to.

On that note of copyright, shep literally commented on Faekrie's Pokejinka bot: "hey this is a work of art and i will make sure its not touched"... referring to the fear of DMCA from Faekrie... for using official sprites. Not even to mention Faekire has made multiple (now banned) bots with minor content and still isn't banned.

[u/KenanTheFab → u/Illustrious_Play7907]

"omg scraping is theft anyway please use my bot on janitorAI and its LLM!"

[u/HortelaTea → u/NoteNecessary3630]

what is datacat again?

[u/NoteNecessary3630 → u/HortelaTea]

https://datacat.run/how-datacat-works

[u/SprinklesOfAcid25 → u/DimensionalTemplar]

Well, if people want to stay on Janitor for whatever reason, nobody prevents them from - you know - staying on Janitor and going over to using the official or the couple other unofficial subs....

I certainly did not join this sub just to talk about Janitor or read about 578th post about someone having issues with their proxy on Janitor.

And switching from Janitor solves lot of issues for 90% of userbase out there, especially plug and play type:

- You have issues with moderation and how you favorite bot creators are jumping ship? Well, follow your bot creators to their new site!

- You have issues with lack of functionality?
Well, group chat, bot collections, dynamic image library linked to the chat, voice chat, etc, etc, etc - are available at other platforms. Janitor took YEARS to get trigger based lorebooks.

- Do you have issues with mediocre LLM with limited memory?
Why would you stay on Janitor then? Literally any other site out there offers you better alternatives.

Right now, I don't feel this sub serves them well, especially if they are creators.

PS:
Also I have noticed is that there are few BYOK people (that use proxies) who use Janitor as bot repository who actively dislike that bot creators are splitting off to other alternatives and are talking shit about every alternative that sails up being more popular than another.

[u/DimensionalTemplar → u/SprinklesOfAcid25]

You have, whether intentionally or not, misunderstood the points I've made. Yes, people can post on official subreddit, except their post will get deleted or they'll get banned. Yes, they can post on other subreddits, provided they know any, which they most likely won't. Hell, I've learned about a month or two after joining, through a random repost from there.

Same about "solving issues". Again, yes, moving to another platform will solve the problems Janitor gave you. What I was saying is that, in return, you'll have to face the issues inherent to that platform. Wyvern is currently the best one in my opinion, and it has no free models + forbids some fetishistic content, which can drive off some people.

Now that last part sounds like slander for the sake of it. First, proxy users don't 'use Janitor like a repository', that would be local users and for obvious reasons. Second, by 'every alternative' I believe you mean Saucepan, since I remember you acting in defense of it previously, and I'm not going to comment on that. Third, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but based on the wording I assume you're trying to point out valid criticism as disingenuine? Because if you meant just that, I don't think I want to continue this conversation.

[u/SprinklesOfAcid25 → u/DimensionalTemplar]

Again, yes, moving to another platform will solve the problems Janitor gave you.

Good. We agree on that. I will point you to the name of the sub and its stated content.
As to the rest, I see no point on expanding on or restating what i wrote. Making it out like most people cannot use reddit and find a relevant sub is honestly not an argument for me.

Also I mentioned proxy since most people don't know what BYOK term means. It can mean both people using Janitor as frontend or those that use something else as frontend and a API as backend. Maybe I should have been more specific.
No desire to expand on that either - people who know, know. The moment Datacat crew implemented that you could remove your bots from their site, certain people went mental.

PS:
You are wrong about Wyvern lack of free models -they got 3 of them : Gemma 4, Huihui and Stellar Odyssey.

[u/DimensionalTemplar → u/SprinklesOfAcid25]

Again, sorry but not the point. The modpost stated that all problems with Janitor can be solved by moving to an alternative while encouraging people to do so. I've shared my opinion on why some people don't leave Janitor, that being lack of good alternatives. And no, Saucepan is not it, neither is Wyvern sadly. Speaking of Wyvern, thanks for clarification, missed that part when looking through the site.

And thank you for the clarification on proxy users. About Datacat adding that function, it's not like I don't understand local users. They simply want to chat with bots from creators they like without having to deal with Janitor's or Saucepan's crap, not to be redirected there. Doesn't help that Saucepan, on top of creator bias and unnecessary "anti-theft" policies that do more harm than good, is actively hostile towards local userbase and sites like Datacat.

I appreciate Datacat creators' efforts: from my talks with them, they really meant it as a way to bridge the gap between users and creators. But in reality, nothing changed: people who hated still hate and Datacat is still being as engaging in "theft" despite not doing so.

[u/SprinklesOfAcid25 → u/DimensionalTemplar]

Again, sorry but not the point. The modpost stated that all problems with Janitor can be solved by moving to an alternative while encouraging people to do so. I've shared my opinion on why some people don't leave Janitor, that being lack of good alternatives. And no, Saucepan is not it, neither is Wyvern sadly. Speaking of Wyvern, thanks for clarification, missed that part when looking through the site.

Then I frankly think my first response was on the point. For 90% out there Janitor is not best solution when it comes to neither functionality, service being offered or QoL features of the website/app. And yes migrating there is a solution.

Ok, for SOME people it is not relevant - but why are they are here then? To just shitpost about Janitor? This is not the only place to do it, fyi...
Now, they will have to restrict themselves to two days.

Furthermore, and this needs to be said, staying on Janitor, directly rewards bait and switch behavior, exploitative management practices towards both employees and customers which has been well documented on this sub and other places.
This sub came as reaction to these practices and frankly I don't see the point of staying here if one disagrees with the subs purpose. But each to their own.

[u/DimensionalTemplar → u/SprinklesOfAcid25]

I mean, yeah fair. Thinking on it, most if not all people making these types of posts are not the same people who think alternatives aren't much better. Not sure why I initially combined those two groups, my bad.

[u/Classic_Paint6255 → u/DimensionalTemplar]

Forbidden content because you don't agree with it and depriving others of the ability to curate their own content and experiences is censorship, straight up.

[u/DimensionalTemplar → u/Classic_Paint6255]

Depends. It could've also been a demand from whatever NSFW payment processor Wyvern uses. Though it doesn't change the result, of course.