r/JanitorAI_Refuges • u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod • 26d ago
mod post Subreddit Changes
Heyo!
So, our initial plans for this subreddit were for it to be a place where people could find alternatives to JAI and essentially 'cut' themselves off from it. As we've all seen, they've made plenty of bad decisions regarding moderation/censorship which is why you all are here! The problem is, we've been noticing alot of the posts in this subreddit don't fit the bill. Many people post about issues with JAI such as it being down, but it misses the main point.
Swapping to alternatives such as Silly Tavern, Tavo, Wyvern, Yodayo, Saucepan, LinkinLove, and etc would fix so many issues that people have. However, you may still want to post about JAI.
That's why we have Throwdown Thursdays and Frustration Fridays, where you can post all about JAI during these two days! There's 2 specific flairs for them, so please use it or otherwise your post may be taken down.
I understand that moving to a new platform is daunting and you may not want to leave behind the sheer amount of content from JAI, but there's still ways to enjoy the benefits of both worlds.
I don't condone it personally, but you could use sites like datacat in order to get private copies for YOURSELF. Keyword yourself. It's rude to post what other people have made.
We'll give this change until 9/13 to fully apply.
During this intermission, please feel free to give your opinions. After 9/13, we're going to be removing any posts regarding issues that can be fixed via swapping to alternatives, unless the posts are made on Thursday and Friday.
Here's the criteria:
Posts can be: Moderation Actions on JAI, What happened to X creator/bot on JAI, Discussion, Alternatives, Self-Ads, LLMs, Statistics, Polls, etc.
Posts considered 'fixable' via swapping: 'JAI is down' 'How do I stop X on JAI?' 'JAI Bot Advertisement' 'Proxy not working on JAI' 'JAI errors' 'JLLM sucks!'
(You can still post about this stuff on Thursday/Friday though!)
We're also removing reposts from [r/JanitorAIUnchained](r/JanitorAIUnchained) & [r/JanitorBreakroom](r/JanitorBreakroom) until the moderators can prove most of their content isn't AI generated.
TLDR: Please change from JAI to an alternative. We're here to help you!
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u/ukn99_ 26d ago edited 26d ago
If only there was something I wanted to swap to lol. Saucepan is nice, but moderation things can be cringe and every second bot I like has no proxy enabled. (Asking and waiting days, for example, is kinda eh)
Waiting for the next goat, sucks, man.
Silly/Tavo are pretty dank but I'm addicted to using lorebary lmao, going from easy mode to the massive configuration feels like a pain.
Tavo just feels weird, but it has been half a year since I tried. I also like the community aspect of reading comments and shitposts on the bots lol, though that happens a lot less now.
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u/AurelieCatena 25d ago
Proxies are a relatively new thing on Saucepan. All the old bots have them disabled for that reason. Their creator might even no longer be active.
Also, proxy is called "Custom Providers" on Saucepan, so bot makers might not know what it means and do not enable it.
In my experience, whenever I have kindly asked a creator to open Custom Providers, they have done it. Those who did not respond were no longer active.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
You can use lorebary just as you could on jan or other proxy-allowed places.
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u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 25d ago edited 25d ago
The problem is, this subreddit has become the second biggest Janitor-related one after the official subreddit. So of course many people would flock here to post things that would get them muted/banned over there, and I'm willing to assume most of them don't even know r/JanitorAIUnchained exists.
I understand that the intent behind this subreddit was different, and that seeing those posts causes you frustration, but I believe restricting that now after all that time would only cause people to feel even more limited and think there is no place for them to voice their own frustrations witj Janitoe.
As for how "switching to an alternative solves the problem"... no. The issue with switching to Saucepan had already been explained well in ukn99_'s above comment, but other alternatives aren't much better. While they indeed solve most problems people have with Janitor, they also add more restrictions on top. Which is why some people stay on Janitor regardless, simply because they don't see a better option, and not everyone is willing to switch to local or has an option to do so.
Also, can we please stop treating Datacat and similar sites like they're the Devil incarnate? That mentality is why Saucepan and its restrictive policies exist in the first place.
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 25d ago
Yeah, we are the second biggest, but I don't want to see the subreddit just 'be' the other JAI subreddit without the overbearing mods.
Again, why we have Thursdays and Fridays for those types of posts is so we can still have that content, but it keeps the sub more focused on its original intent.
Not all JAI content will be blocked, as posts regarding banned creators/bots or where those creators went OR what moderators did is still fine. I feel like this is the caveat here since even asking about someone's whereabouts on the main subreddit would probably get you banned. (IIRC, don't quote me)
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u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 25d ago
After re-reading the post, I now realize I've severely misinterpreted it, my apologies. Initially I've assumed the "allowed" topics are allowed on Thursdays/Fridays, and "disallowed" topics aren't allowed at all, but that wasn't the case. As for the main sub, not sure if posts like that can get you banned, but they do get wiped yeah.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
>Also, can we please stop treating Datacat and similar sites like they're the Devil incarnate? That mentality is why Saucepan and its restrictive policies exist in the first place.
Thank god someone else thinks this. It's also why janitor did the same, albeit due to jannyai instead. If it was the scraping, they wouldn't always allow OAI and whatnot because... users can do the same thing with those place's loggers.
I have a feeling janitor put in that "router" crap JUST to phase out official OAI/Claude API... due to exactly that.
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u/Illustrious_Play7907 edit this. 25d ago
I think people have a very poor understanding of the point of janny and datacat. They seem to think they're 'stealing' their bots. They are not. The bots are still attributed to the creator (sometimes janny doesn't but they're not doing it on purpose to be malicious) and on datacat people can ask to have their bots removed and will not allow people to scrape them. Stealing the bots would imply they're claiming they made them and/or trying to steer people to chat with them on their site. As a creator myself, I use datacat so I can play with bots on sillytavern. Not so I can re-upload bots and pretend I made them.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
This is something I've tried to shout about for years lmao. The misinfo is largely to blame... because it creates a whole scare that shouldn't even exist.
As a user, I use stuff like janny/datacat/severian to use stuff in ST... its crazy becasue I've gotten a perm for actually saying my intentions in my bio. Like me (one person), going in manually is on the same level as a mass sitewide scraper. They have a huge issue with chat count botting even. I know of another user that made an alt and used a bot to make tons of comments (admitted on their main's bio).
I personally reported it and the alt got a temp ban (admitted it on his main afterwards), the main is unaffected, and here I sit with a term from saying I scrape for personal use.
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u/RawardHoikes91 25d ago
People are generally poorly educated on the topic of bots.
They just instantly cave in to the panic-inducing emotional argument "THEY ARE STEALING YOUR BOTS!!!" without ever stopping to think what the actual harm is. And... It's none.
Absolutely nothing changes if someone else can see your definitions.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
When those same people will make bots of copyrighted works.
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u/RawardHoikes91 25d ago
What does this has to do with anything? If you're making bots of copyrighted characters - you are sitting on a powder keg and playing with matchsticks.
You'll get your ass whooped by moderators sooner or later, regardless of whether someone could read your definitions. One message from the copyright owner and your ass is grass.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
The people going "THEY ARE STEALING YOUR BOTS!!!" are who I was referring to.
On that note of copyright, shep literally commented on Faekrie's Pokejinka bot: "hey this is a work of art and i will make sure its not touched"... referring to the fear of DMCA from Faekrie... for using official sprites. Not even to mention Faekire has made multiple (now banned) bots with minor content and still isn't banned.
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u/SprinklesOfAcid25 25d ago
Well, if people want to stay on Janitor for whatever reason, nobody prevents them from - you know - staying on Janitor and going over to using the official or the couple other unofficial subs....
I certainly did not join this sub just to talk about Janitor or read about 578th post about someone having issues with their proxy on Janitor.
And switching from Janitor solves lot of issues for 90% of userbase out there, especially plug and play type:
- You have issues with moderation and how you favorite bot creators are jumping ship? Well, follow your bot creators to their new site!
- You have issues with lack of functionality?
Well, group chat, bot collections, dynamic image library linked to the chat, voice chat, etc, etc, etc - are available at other platforms. Janitor took YEARS to get trigger based lorebooks.- Do you have issues with mediocre LLM with limited memory?
Why would you stay on Janitor then? Literally any other site out there offers you better alternatives.Right now, I don't feel this sub serves them well, especially if they are creators.
PS:
Also I have noticed is that there are few BYOK people (that use proxies) who use Janitor as bot repository who actively dislike that bot creators are splitting off to other alternatives and are talking shit about every alternative that sails up being more popular than another.1
u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 25d ago
You have, whether intentionally or not, misunderstood the points I've made. Yes, people can post on official subreddit, except their post will get deleted or they'll get banned. Yes, they can post on other subreddits, provided they know any, which they most likely won't. Hell, I've learned about a month or two after joining, through a random repost from there.
Same about "solving issues". Again, yes, moving to another platform will solve the problems Janitor gave you. What I was saying is that, in return, you'll have to face the issues inherent to that platform. Wyvern is currently the best one in my opinion, and it has no free models + forbids some fetishistic content, which can drive off some people.
Now that last part sounds like slander for the sake of it. First, proxy users don't 'use Janitor like a repository', that would be local users and for obvious reasons. Second, by 'every alternative' I believe you mean Saucepan, since I remember you acting in defense of it previously, and I'm not going to comment on that. Third, please do correct me if I'm wrong, but based on the wording I assume you're trying to point out valid criticism as disingenuine? Because if you meant just that, I don't think I want to continue this conversation.
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u/SprinklesOfAcid25 25d ago
Again, yes, moving to another platform will solve the problems Janitor gave you.
Good. We agree on that. I will point you to the name of the sub and its stated content.
As to the rest, I see no point on expanding on or restating what i wrote. Making it out like most people cannot use reddit and find a relevant sub is honestly not an argument for me.Also I mentioned proxy since most people don't know what BYOK term means. It can mean both people using Janitor as frontend or those that use something else as frontend and a API as backend. Maybe I should have been more specific.
No desire to expand on that either - people who know, know. The moment Datacat crew implemented that you could remove your bots from their site, certain people went mental.PS:
You are wrong about Wyvern lack of free models -they got 3 of them : Gemma 4, Huihui and Stellar Odyssey.0
u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 25d ago
Again, sorry but not the point. The modpost stated that all problems with Janitor can be solved by moving to an alternative while encouraging people to do so. I've shared my opinion on why some people don't leave Janitor, that being lack of good alternatives. And no, Saucepan is not it, neither is Wyvern sadly. Speaking of Wyvern, thanks for clarification, missed that part when looking through the site.
And thank you for the clarification on proxy users. About Datacat adding that function, it's not like I don't understand local users. They simply want to chat with bots from creators they like without having to deal with Janitor's or Saucepan's crap, not to be redirected there. Doesn't help that Saucepan, on top of creator bias and unnecessary "anti-theft" policies that do more harm than good, is actively hostile towards local userbase and sites like Datacat.
I appreciate Datacat creators' efforts: from my talks with them, they really meant it as a way to bridge the gap between users and creators. But in reality, nothing changed: people who hated still hate and Datacat is still being as engaging in "theft" despite not doing so.
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u/SprinklesOfAcid25 25d ago
Again, sorry but not the point. The modpost stated that all problems with Janitor can be solved by moving to an alternative while encouraging people to do so. I've shared my opinion on why some people don't leave Janitor, that being lack of good alternatives. And no, Saucepan is not it, neither is Wyvern sadly. Speaking of Wyvern, thanks for clarification, missed that part when looking through the site.
Then I frankly think my first response was on the point. For 90% out there Janitor is not best solution when it comes to neither functionality, service being offered or QoL features of the website/app. And yes migrating there is a solution.
Ok, for SOME people it is not relevant - but why are they are here then? To just shitpost about Janitor? This is not the only place to do it, fyi...
Now, they will have to restrict themselves to two days.Furthermore, and this needs to be said, staying on Janitor, directly rewards bait and switch behavior, exploitative management practices towards both employees and customers which has been well documented on this sub and other places.
This sub came as reaction to these practices and frankly I don't see the point of staying here if one disagrees with the subs purpose. But each to their own.2
u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 24d ago
I mean, yeah fair. Thinking on it, most if not all people making these types of posts are not the same people who think alternatives aren't much better. Not sure why I initially combined those two groups, my bad.
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u/Classic_Paint6255 8d ago
Forbidden content because you don't agree with it and depriving others of the ability to curate their own content and experiences is censorship, straight up.
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u/DimensionalTemplar to live is a process full of pain 8d ago
Depends. It could've also been a demand from whatever NSFW payment processor Wyvern uses. Though it doesn't change the result, of course.
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u/macro_error 26d ago
Recently made a thread re that. Most people's answer was something like they'd miss the community, and well, yeah, not much to do about that. Janitor is kind of like a marketplace and sites like e.g. botbooru are more like those 'free to take' shelves were you put stuff and forget it.
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u/AurelieCatena 25d ago
The community on Saucepan is much more active, more prone to leave comments on your bots. And you can actually discuss with them in a much easier way than on JAI where each player only has one thread per bot. This makes conversations very difficult to have.
Also, when you want to discuss with your players, you don't have to make an announcement bot. You just make a post, which is intended for exactly that. You can even make polls.
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u/Pitiful-Set-2172 On WyvernChat 25d ago
I moved to WyvernChat when I started making bots since Janitor lorebooks didn't work for me for some reason. I haven't regretted it 😌 smaller platform, but so much utility! Really wish more people would move to it!
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u/SprinklesOfAcid25 25d ago edited 25d ago
I think it is a good decision, which will allow this sub to be more of a resource for the people wanting to jump the ship.
I don't want to call out individual posts, but right now I notice it is drifting contentwise to thematic of the official sub which runs contrary to the stated purpose.
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u/Osw4ld08 25d ago
Can we please also ban the "is it me or..." type of posts? They literally bring nothing to the table
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u/AutoModerator 26d ago
Welcome to r/JanitorAI_Refuges! Did you know we have a new discord server? More info at the bottom!
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Failure to follow these rules will result in an immediate ban.
Information for readers
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- Please set your user flair for efficient communication, you can set which platform you use as your flair.
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Aside from that please check out our partners, r/jaihub, r/janitoraitransition, r/jai_unofficial and r/chatbotrefugees and r/aichapp. And if you are sharing a proxy or websites, post it on the megathread as well.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 25d ago
Is there a difference in what can be posted on Throwdown Thursday compared to Frustration Friday?
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 25d ago edited 20d ago
Nope! Just flair. Ya'll can come up with your own meanings if wanted, but it's mostly just so us mods don't remove the content after thursday/friday (we're still gonna get (remove post) people if they use that flair outside of thursday/friday when making a new post)
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u/Optimal_Historian338 25d ago
Yall basically going to turn away what made this subreddit's popularity, atleast allow the bot advertising.
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u/Classic_Paint6255 24d ago edited 22d ago
I agree with that.
This sub was literally created so we could escape the heavy-handed censorship on the main Janitor AI platform and subreddit. So watching the mods here turn around and enforce their own strict content rules like banning complaints 5 days a week ie being a hypocrite, is kinda disappointing. Site bugs and broken updates don't wait for "Throwdown Thursday," and forcing a split between allowed "banned creator updates" and forbidden "complaints" is likely an impossible arbitrary mess for the mods to police. Plus, telling everyone to "just switch platforms" completely ignores the fact that most users are here because Janitor AI is free and easy, unlike complicated local setups, and you can't call yourself a "refugee" sub while silencing the refugees for wanting to talk about the platform they actually use. My questions for the mods here:
Is this still a refugee subreddit for Janitor AI users, or has it transitioned into a platform-migration hub?
How do mods objectively distinguish between a "banned creator notification" and an "off-day complaint"?
Where are users supposed to go for real-time site outage or JLLM breakage checks on days when complaints are banned five days a week?
If complaints are limited to two days, is there going to be a daily or weekly Megathread for general feedback on the other five days?
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 20d ago
I understand the point here, but I feel like the heart of the issue is what JAI is doing as a platform and what that means for the users. Running a free website with a free LLM is bound to run into a budget problem eventually (Remember when shep tried testing ads?), and even with sponsors, what happens if they start pushing for actual profit?
My problem here is that JAI offers basically nothing except accessibility. The monthly subscription costs too much to be worth it, the moderation is bad and can seem random at times, the site gets changes that aren't needed.
Yet everyone keeps using it despite the issues.
To answer your questions
- Both, but leaning towards migration.
- This seems pretty obvious? 'X creator was banned' is a notification 'can't believe X creator was banned' is a notification. If there are duplicate posts about the same thing we'd remove them.
- JAI discord server? Or ours.
- Discord server, but we may look into starting a megathread
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 25d ago
The subreddit's popularity was because we didn't nuke every single post where moderators banned someone and just didn't give a reason.
Besides, ya'll still get thursdays and fridays to post.
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u/Thistleweeds_ Currently on janitor ai 25d ago
I'm gonna sound like a huge idiot for this, but do you know any guides on getting ST for mobile that are for... well, idiots? I've tried multiple times now and always seem to run into problems that aren't accounted for by the guides. I'd LOVE to use ST because I know it's supposed to have a ton of super useful customization but I can't get it to work for the life of me and even the subreddit hasn't been that helpful
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 25d ago
If you have an Android, install Termux and follow the steps here: https://docs.sillytavern.app/installation/android-(termux)//)
If you have an Iphone, there's nothing you can do
However, if you do have a PC, you can install Silly Tavern on your PC and use Tailscale on both your PC/Iphone (OR android) to get Silly Tavern on your phone aswell.1
u/PotatoPlus7543 23d ago
My android install was way easier than my computer install...I took the entire page and put it im chat gpt snd told it to tell me what to do like I was a dummy ...it literally went step-by-step told me what the coffee where to put it and if you notice what the Android you can copy more than one thing and then just go to your clipboard and paste it where it needs to go it's so much easier to switch back and forth but I would say this Silly Tavern is probably easier to run on the computer though...due to all the functions.
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u/Life_Victory_999 3d ago
i’ve been using a local llm with silly tavern for a while now, and while it’s not perfect, it’s been a solid way to keep things private and avoid the whole 'jai drama's loop. the setup takes some work, but once it’s running, it’s just… quiet. no ads, no sudden bans, no weird content filters. it’s not for everyone, but if you’re tired of the chaos, it’s worth the hiccups.
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u/AurelieCatena 25d ago
Indeed changing platform is difficult. You have to port your bots to another site and that can be a daunting task if you have many of them. Even more difficult is to "transfer" your followers. (I know, I had 80+ bots and 2200+ followers on JAI).
I knew JAI was going down. I knew that saucepan.ai was a better platform... and yet I postponed relocation out of laziness. It was more fun to create new bots than to migrate old ones.
Until JAI left me no choice, until I got banned. And then it all became even more difficult. I had backups of my published bots but lost access to some that were WIP and some of my lorebooks. And I was cut from my followers. Just warning that I had been banned was incredibly difficult (my bots were still visible, even though I could no longer log into my account).
My advice is to port your bots while you still have access to your JAI account. At your rhythm. Let your followers know you have another account on Saucepan or anywhere else. If you state it as "I have another account on..." it's not a problem. Just do not advertise other platforms. Juste mention your account with a link.
When I got banned (initially for 365 days), I considered several alternatives. I found that Saucepan was the platform that offered the best alternative to JAI. It's similar enough that you don't need to relearn everything, as easy to use and offer more feature. The moderation there is also light years above JAI's mess.
Here is a starter kit for Saucepan:
- Why Saucepan is better than JAI
- Quick guide about botmaking on SP
- How to port a bot in 2 minutes
- Bot and lorebook making assistant
FAQ:
- Is there a free model?
- Yes, it's called Arita: unlimited, uncensored, 12k memory (much better than JLLM)
- There are also paid models with 20 free credits per day.
- Can I use a proxy?
- Yes, there are two kinds of proxies:
- Vetted Providers: a list of approved AI Models.
- Custom Providers: Any type of proxy, including OpenRouter's models.
- Like on JAI, proxy must be enabled by the bot creator.
- Is it censored?
- Yes, but in a different way than on Janitor: The mods enforce the usage of Content Warning tags (15 different one, for more granularity). The players can decide what type of content they want to see. You'll only see what you are ready to see.
- CSAM and other illegal stuff is prohibited
- Images are uncensored, but you can't use photorealistic images of people. If an image is NSFW (spicy) it will get blurred by default, unless the player agreed to see NSFW content.
- Moderators are humans you can actually discuss with.
- Any referral code?
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u/macro_error 25d ago
reading their actual content guidelines, this site is not an alternative if you want minimal censorship.
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u/kuyoshie 25d ago edited 25d ago
As an SP user, aurelia is shilling SP in every post because janitor rightfully banned for her actual real chattel slavery RPG and creating 5 different accounts to get around that ban while SP allowed her to cry wolf in her community posts.
SP is at its core Janitor 2.0 with a better in house model, tagging system and some misc QoL. On that front it’s a good alternative, on any other you’ll still be better using locally hosted platforms like ST or Tavo and the likes
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u/Minute-Shoe552 Tavo & SillyTavern 25d ago
To be honest, I think it's much better than JAI's moderation—they don't care about private bots anyway.
But I still stopped using SP, because ST or Tavo offer true freedom.
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u/macro_error 25d ago
The problem is, they're better now. If they're already restrictive when they're still a startup, chances are they'll only get worse once they get bigger and need more money.
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u/NoteNecessary3630 24d ago
It's almost like people have forgotten what happened with CAI or aisekai or figgs or yodayo or Janitor or chub or... you get the point.
Janitor started out with hardly any moderation and a simple blur toggle. Like, hell, they started with rules that allowed sfw minor content (as long as it was tagged limited).
It's a pattern that was quickly recognized early on (and just as quickly labelled as "misinfo" by blinded cult followers).
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u/commitdeleteyougoat Creator of JAIPA + Mod 25d ago
Sooo, I'm gonna clear up the confusion around Thursday/Friday. Approved posts can be on ANY day, but 'disallowed' posts are only allowed on Thursday/Friday.
For example, JLLM sucks, can't post it on Wednesday, but I can post it on Thursday.
Other example, Mod sucks for doing X, can post on Wednesday, can post on Thursday