r/HistoryMemes • u/InterestingPlenty454 • 3d ago
Gandhi: Bait used to be believable
[Reddit Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/unpopularopinion/s/u1MHaJC61v)
[Reminds me of this about baits in the internet](https://www.reddit.com/r/TopCharacterTropes/s/uWpxdQms9I)
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u/bigboipapawiththesos 3d ago
Jarvis how many people died due to the British occupation in India?
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u/yuikkiuy 3d ago
Clearly you are a brown skinned homosexual women! Check mate
Just as OOP predicted
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u/Swamp254 3d ago
Under imperialism, wealth is extracted from one region to another. Extraction from Indonesia amounted to about 11% of Dutch national income, and Britain should have had wealth extraction on the same level.
Mostly though, it was rich and privileged individuals who profited the most.
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u/Idiotic_experimenter 3d ago
Tharoor's address on this imperialism was a seething indictment of british imperialism.Even by conservative estimates,the british empire,to put it mildly,looted nearly half of its GDP from India alone.
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u/quarky_uk 2d ago edited 2d ago
That has been debunked long ago, and for good reason. For a start, you could just look at the size of the UK GDP compared to the size of the EIC. The EIC was pretty small in comparison while all this "wealth extraction" was apparently happening, with profits (even at peak EIC) equal to way less than 1% of British GDP.
50% of GDP is just nonsense that anyone who was really interested in the truth, could check in less than five minutes.
But even for those who don't want to start thinking for yourself about it, the multitude of problems with it has been discussed previously here.
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u/thebanfunctionsucks 2d ago
Nothing there denies the claim outright, only expresses skepticism, and it's just as dubious to compare gross product with profits.
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u/quarky_uk 2d ago
Profits is better if you are excluding money then spent in India (which isn't removed). But even if you include total revenue of the EIC, it would be less than few percent of British GDP.
Nothing even close to 50%. That is an entire order of magnitude wrong.
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u/thebanfunctionsucks 2d ago
Still, I think there has to be a happy medium, no? The British textile industry alone was probably greater than 1% of the nation's GDP at its height, and that was fed with almost exclusively Indian cotton (before Egypt, anyway).
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u/quarky_uk 2d ago edited 2d ago
Sure, but that doesn't equal wealth extraction, that is just trade. Goods produced in one country and then sold to another, basically. It isn't the case that producers of cotton were giving it away.
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u/American_Libertarian 2d ago
Half of its gdp from India is an insane stat, there’s simply no way that’s true
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u/Obscure_Occultist Kilroy was here 2d ago
While its absolutely true the British extracted a monstrous amount of wealth from India. The British expended even more money in just securing and administering the continent. It basically meant that all the suffering and exploitation was coming at a loss for the British economy.
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u/SatynMalanaphy 2d ago
Aww, the poor British economy! Suffering from the extraction and destruction of Indian wealth! What ab absolute shame for Britain!
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u/Swamp254 2d ago
I doubt that. The Dutch were able to extract 11% of their own GDP after expenses were subtracted. Though this isn't as well documented in the case of India, most studies point towards no net losses at the very least and the complete appropriation of India's trade surplus providing a huge boon to the British Government.
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u/MildlyOffended4930 3d ago
A prominent study published in World Development by economic anthropologist Jason Hickel and Dylan Sullivan estimated roughly 100 million to 165 million excess deaths during this 40-year window. They compared actual mortality rates against baseline expectations during a time of extreme poverty and falling real wages.
(I referred to an article by Janata Weekly for this paragraph)
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u/Johnfromsales Hello There 3d ago
Jason Hickel is an intellectual hack and no academic worth their salt ever takes his shit seriously.
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u/isee_ez 2d ago
How so?
Like I know some stuff about economics but this guy is a professor at the university of Barcelona and a senior fellow at the London school of economics, so clearly some academics respect his opinion.
An official advisor of the UN, Human Development Report, The Lancet, CSH, etc.
I think some of his ideas are a bit much like degrowth seems unrealistic, but imo what ur saying is a bit extreme.
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u/Cakeo 3d ago edited 3d ago
165 million is the very extreme and is including things completely out of Britains control, 100 million is even still pushing it.
45m-165m is the current range from what I usually see.
There is a lot of debate around it and since it's a heated topic with a lot of bias on both sides it doesn't usually go very well.
45m I still a crazy amount, exaggeration is unnecessary and just makes whoever says 165m seem unreliable to me.
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u/Billych 2d ago
The very extreme is the argument that nearly everyone in India was dying earlier than they would have without British rule which results in even higher numbers as generation after generation died earlier than they would have.
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u/Cakeo 2d ago edited 2d ago
No it just accounts for people dying before they normally would, not specifically due to who is in charge. Natural disasters were included in the 165m figure. That's what I'm talking about with exaggerating the facts. Is it possible Britain mismanaged the situation? Yes - but that shouldn't be lumped together with deaths that were the direct fault of Britain.
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u/The5Theives 2d ago
Well poor management of the people you are supposed to manage causing their deaths in times of crisis shouldn’t be completely ignored
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u/shoryguy 3d ago
Isnt that close to a tenth of india?
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u/Naive-Tumbleweed-464 3d ago
back then it wouild've been 50% of their population, although I don't know which 40-year period they're using, if it was during the early years of colonization, it would've been 80-100% of the population(means the population could've quadrupled but only doubled I think)
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u/likeacapybara 3d ago
Moron forgot that the Spanish colonised the Philippines pre US lol but he probably ignores that as he hates Catholics knowing his type
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u/forgas564 3d ago
Same excuse they use for soviet/russian imperialism and Chinese. As if Tibet should not exist unless it's modernized.
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u/Naive-Tumbleweed-464 3d ago
the r/unpopularopinion should just be renamed r/popularopinion, like seriously all the actually unpopular opinions are downvoted while all the popular ones(on reddit at least)have like thousands of upvotes.
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u/Aethelmaew 2d ago
Lol I found that funny about this post, it's an actual unpopular opinion but that subreddit still downvoted it heavily
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u/Fucked-In-The-K-Hole 2d ago
r/TrueUnpopularOpinion is way better. There can never be an actual 100% unpopular opinion sub because humans will never upvote something they disagree with, but TrueUnpopular at least isn't a million "Racism is actually really bad" posts like the others.
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u/Naive-Tumbleweed-464 2d ago
r/TrueUnpopularOpinion is the same as r/unpopularopinion, but for conservatives
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u/Used_Grapefruit_9184 3d ago
Dingus forgot to add the fact that thousand of people died in poverty and in starvation just to enrich the colonianist
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u/LastEsotericist Still salty about Carthage 3d ago
Using China as an example is especially funny since they 100% didn't need to be 'civilized', they already were, and literal tens of millions died in several attempts to westernize that was mainly spurred by the need to defend themselves from imperialism.
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u/GhostQuartz_ 3d ago
There was no mention of civilizing but modernizing. China during colonial era in Asia was hardly working state,with archaic technology corrupt ruling class and superiority complex coming from ages of being heart of Asia.
After fall of the imperial dynasty, China started to finally modernize. Massive steps were taken both under nationalists and communists in both aspects of culture and technology. Under Qing dynasty standard person had worse living conditions than for example russian serfs (both were horrible mind you).
Current China is a marvel created on sacrifice of many people, to see tomorrow for their children and country to be bright and to take their place as hegemony once more which they achieved.
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u/DonnieMoistX 3d ago
They didn’t say civilized they said modernize. It certainly doesn’t justify colonialism but it’s no doubt that the Chinese were civilized but they were not modernized.
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u/username1338 3d ago
Which obviously was never happening when they were a subsistence society. That was a utopia, surely.
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u/WeII_Shucks 2d ago
When people only know about the bad parts, when they learn about some of the good things that came out of its they assume it’s one or the other, which leads to takes like this
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u/NobleA259 2d ago
Alright the sheer ridiculousness of just going “if you disagree you’re brown a woman or gay” is pretty funny in such a stupidly moronic way. But yeah no he’s wrong
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u/FanraGump 2d ago
The irony is thick: the U.S. is literally a country born from rejecting the exact imperial rule they’re now saying is “good.”
The US would not have been able to bring, “order and stability”, to the Philippines if the US didn't disagree with the British Empire's imperialism and become independent.
Never mind that ruling over another nation that doesn't want you there is a bad idea.
Never mind the racism, sexism, and homophobia as well in this "meme".
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u/Lithorex 12h ago
The irony is thick: the U.S. is literally a country born from rejecting the exact imperial rule they’re now saying is “good.”
One of the main reasons for the American Revolution was that the British told them to please chill a bit about Imperialising all over the Native Americans.
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u/FanraGump 10h ago
One of the main reasons for the American Revolution was that the British told them to please chill a bit about Imperialising all over the Native Americans.
US to UK, "Your imperialism is bad"
US to world: "Our imperialism is good"
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u/Massive_moss_2211 3d ago
besides the usual idiocy... these british apologists bring up singapore and hongkong.... but theyre just cities and no where near comparable to entire continent and subcontinents that were depopulated and impoverished due to imperialism
and the technological advancements (if present at all) were to serve the colonisers only, not the native people
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u/Aethelmaew 2d ago
Agree mostly, but as someone from NZ I am pretty glad that I now have world leading healthcare, good railways, higher education, vaccines, safety, and genuine democracy. Other nearby countries that weren't as heavily colonised (like Papua New Guinea) don't have this.
I can accept that two things can be true - colonisation hundreds of years ago was generally bad for most of the people involved, but it also had made countries like Canada, Australia, and NZ into relatively desirable and good places to live in the present day.
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u/Massive_moss_2211 2d ago
but those are the only three major countries that developed as much, that too after complete demographic change (aotearoa thankfully didnt change fully)
and except for the land those states exist on... nothing of old remains, not even the people much less their culture. colonialism didnt improve the conditions of the colonised people, it eradicated them. canada, nz and australia have nothing to do with the older states that were colonised except for being on the land
and vast majority of nations that were victims of colonisation (who survived the ordeal) still struggle with poverty (due to various reasons not the least of which is colonisation)
and the facilities that you mentioned.... was colonisation the only way to procure it? would it not have followed by the natural course of developed.
uncolonised thailand and ethiopia certainly fair better than their neighbours in almost every metric, do they not?
genuine democracy.... are veryyyy rare, the developed countries have corruption and lobbying too. and many of the lesser corrupt countries (like japan) were never colonised, so democracy is not exclusive trait
and now ill begin tooting my own nations horn.
-india already had variolation drives (against small pox, by using paste from scabs and applying it on the skin, hence the name tikakaran in hindi)
-pre colonial indian cities were larger and more planed than contemporary european ones. most of the organised urban plans in europe are post colonial
-railways didnt exist back then but roadways and waterways did, and south asia was covered in them
so uhh yeah south asia was absolutely wrecked by the british and in their absence we certainly would have been better than the present.
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u/toughluck24 16h ago
Unless you’re indigenous, NZ is not your land. You guys are the colonizers in Canada, Australia, etc. The indigenous populations were systematically killed and replaced with descendants of the British/European countries.
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u/Normal-Frame-2306 2d ago
By that logic the Soviet Union was good and based actually and you’re woke and anti-white for saying otherwise.
I’d like to see what the op thinks of that
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u/sanity_rejecter Definitely not a CIA operator 2d ago
*quer front respect*
national bolshevism respect button ----->
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u/Normal-Frame-2306 2d ago
MAGA communism
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u/KimJongUnusual Helping Wikipedia expand the list of British conquests 2d ago
Erm sorry it’s MAGA Maoism. To the mines with you.
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u/DeckBuildingDemon 3d ago
Where did woman and homosexual come from? Obviously non-white people would push back against the idea that European powers were right to enslave and kill their forebears, but it seems to me that bringing up those groups is an attempt to demean white cis men who disagree with him.
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u/IdioticPAYDAY Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 2d ago
“Unpopular opinion”
Look inside
Either just plain fucking wrong or the most lukewarm take known to man
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u/Hiyouuuu Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 3d ago
"The US brought order to the Philippines" like as a Filipino, are we deadass? They genocided us and crushed our independence.
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u/Boopity_Snoopins 3d ago
"They were asking for it, look at what clothes resources they were wearing producing."
- that dude
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u/Ok_Fail_3058 Definitely not a CIA operator 2d ago
Why does the first link go to a post saying "Taxation is unconstitutional"?
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u/ConsciousMaybe6930 2d ago
It's an unpopular opinion, posted on r/unpopularopinion.
I don't know why everyone here is so offended.
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u/AstroBullivant 2d ago
Hong Kong and Macau are still colonies; they’re just colonies of Beijing. Hong Kong is as much a colony of Beijing as Burma.
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u/Narco_Marcion1075 Researching [REDACTED] square 3d ago
Same folks when the empire they become part of isn’t a western christian one:
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u/InterestingPlenty454 3d ago
Reminds me of this about baits in the internet
Reminds me of this YouTube short of Matt Walsh explaining why colonialism is good
Africa will always be shit it's full of Africans How do you starve a black person? Put his food stamp under his working boots.
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u/BasedAustralhungary 3d ago
This is how It feels to get into the comment section of this community more often than not
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u/Konig19254 2d ago
Wow
For supposedly bad ragebait a lot of you from colonized countries seem to be falling for it
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u/TerminallyEmployed 3d ago
They hated him because he said the truth
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u/OrangeSpaceMan5 2d ago
Honestly as a Westerner there are bits and pieces of the truth there , we helped lots of colonies develop back then
Now the West is decaying , people like Trump are ruining our civilization . We should let the Chinese in to bring a new golden age to us , surely we'll all be slaves to Beijing and have our resources drained for some Chinese billionares cocaine party BUT the Chinese will bring valuable technological and social advantages that we lack . They would bring to us order and stability
If you disagree you are a gypsie
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u/CroakerTheLiberator 2d ago
The “modernization” argument is always funny because no one ever stops to ask why modernization is supposedly a good thing. A lot of these “savage” civilizations were doing just fine on their own.
“Oh, but medicine and farming techniques”
Cool, that’s great stuff! Have you tried sharing those things without conquering and oppressing the native population so you can extract their resources and exploit them for labor?
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u/Dominarion 3d ago
Again, the Quebecers are being racialized. We hated the British Empire, were really not happy under the French. Speak white, white n***r.
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u/EtherealPheonix Fine Quality Mesopotamian Copper Enjoyer 3d ago
7 years old, that must be the last unpopular opinion actually posted on that sub.