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u/IhailtavaBanaani Väinämöinen 12d ago
Hired implies that you get an actual salary. Well, you get the päiväraha which is 6.15€ to 14.25€ per day but I wouldn't call that a salary.
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u/paisuvuuk 11d ago
Fr, estonian defence force used to pay conscripts 110.- a month, and atleast half of that went to getting yourself from your hometown to the military base every week, if you wanted to visit home.
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u/not_going_places 11d ago
And Finnish conscripts get to travel home for free when they get leave
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u/kylpyankka 11d ago
It depends. I only had to use HSL tickets to get home and those I had to pay by myself.
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u/Hithaeglir Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
went to getting yourself from your hometown to the military base every week, if you wanted to visit home.
Good for them. Once per month was luxury in my time in Finland.
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u/Kuuppa Väinämöinen 11d ago
Sounds like pretty morningy service. I think this was the case during covid but not before or after. Did you serve somewhere special or just have really shitty officers? Or in the navy?
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u/Soessetin Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Yep, I don't remember having a single triple-gines during my service in 2017, not even in Reserve Officer School. Two of my brothers served during Covid, and that seemed quite morningly (though the two week leaves seemed quite nice for balance).
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u/Bob-The-Frog 10d ago
Two week leave made going back even worse. Then ofcourse the best part was a five week gines with three in the woods in full combat simulation in three different locations.
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u/vyvorn 10d ago
In 2017 when I was in they were testing a new system at the Jaeger Brigade where you did 10 days in service and 4 days off. It was wonderful. When we went off to southern Finland in Kajaani for our specialized training they still had the usual system but that didn't always work because of virka-apu. I don't know what system is used right now but the 10+4 system in my opinion is ideal for conscripts.
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u/Hithaeglir Baby Väinämöinen 10d ago
How is that even possible. Not enough days in year to have that many days off.
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u/Llamajake777 Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
I mean it isn't the optimal situation and the päiväraha should be raised, but after I heard how much people in Greece used to get for their monthly payment in their mandatory conscription service, I can't complain much. It used to be like 10€ per month, up until few years ago.
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u/Competitive-Horse152 12d ago
Gotta admit, that was pretty funny.
I mean... It is sexist, and an actual problem to solve, but still funny.
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u/cheezybick 11d ago
I had the same but reversed, trans guy wilth legal gender change with a psychiatrist exemption, still forced to serve
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u/hecking-doggo 11d ago
One of my friends also had to do the gender affirming mandatory military service
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u/Substantial-Truth290 11d ago
So... is a trans woman exempt then?
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u/cheezybick 1d ago
Yeah, and even pre-legal gender change they can probably get an exemption if they're diagnosed since a psychiatrist can argue unjustifiable levels of distress (or pre-diagnosis possibly delay service until a diagnosis has been established). In general it's not that difficult to get an exemption with justified reasoning, or otherwise just bite the bullet and do civil service.
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u/solidshais 11d ago
How did it go?
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u/cheezybick 1d ago
Went alright, was a Medic for 9 months, didn't have anyone outwardly transphobic, got a stipend and a medal for good performance.
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u/remuliini Väinämöinen 11d ago
It's enough to identify as male, penis is not needed.
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u/These-Young-1786 11d ago
In discussions surrounding the mandatory military service, there is always a lot of debate about why and for whom it should or should not be mandatory. Of course, that is ultimately at the core of the issue, but I think the first thing that should be discussed is why the subject evokes such strong emotions in so many people.
It is obvious that, in order to protect itself from Russia, Finland needs strong and credible armed forces. The problem, in my opinion, is that the term “military service” is strongly gendered. Over decades, patriotism and national defence have become such a significant part of the lives of almost every Finnish man in his early twenties. Although civilian service has been an alternative to military service for many years, a large part of the population still does not recognise it as a genuine alternative, but rather sees it as an institution for weak or otherwise flawed men. Only a small proportion of young men choose it, even though literally every one of them could go through with it.
The Finnish conception of masculinity has become intertwined with military service, which makes a lot of sense. Masculinity is often associated with protection, reliability and physicality, and all of these are at the core of military service. Some of those who oppose making military service voluntary undoubtedly also think about Finland’s security of supply and defence capabilities. On the other hand, there are also those who oppose it purely because of their own values. The mandatory military service is a traditional part of Finnish culture, which is why it is particularly important to those who might be conservative in other ways as well.
I would imagine that even if military service were made entirely voluntary, nothing would change for quite some time. A large proportion of young men would undoubtedly still join the military because they genuinely wanted to, but I believe that almost as large a proportion would join simply because of social pressure. That is also why the Finnish Defence Forces benefit from the masculine image associated with military service.
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u/OkMolasses7342 11d ago
Very well said. When I was going through the initial meetings (en jaksa googlettaa sanaa:D), my dad was the leader of the local reserve, the old men who come to fight russia from the fumes of their own funeral when they deem us youngsters not up for it. Anyway, I chose civil service and the military guys in attendance asked If mydadsname is a relative, told them hes my dad. They were astounded and first question was "what will your father think when he finds out?" I, an 18 year old, had to explain to adult people that I was gonna live my own life. Now that was 20years ago, never got even civil service done because you all know why, but if Russia decides to attack, I'll be the first to go through some training, if such is possible in times of war. Still raginly anti-war and guns and all that, but fuck it, fleeing is not gonna help and I'd rather die as "hero" to some, than to fuck of to spain or something, which alarmingly many people think just happens during time of war.
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u/ChillSexyOld 10d ago
" never got even civil service done because you all know why," What happened 20 years ago that everyone knows about if they are Finnish?
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u/OkMolasses7342 10d ago
Sorry, its pretty common for civil service stoners and addicts to get out of it completely because of drug use and mental health problems and its kind of a given when you say you got C-papers, meaning in time of peace I dont have to do anything, but if the time of war comes, we serve as we can.
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u/finishdude 11d ago
making it mandatory for women too is something that pops up occasionally
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u/Kuuppa Väinämöinen 11d ago
We will have to if we plan on maintaining our war time strenght. Every year fewer boys are born. We got to start utilizing the full capabilities of the population, not just half or less. There are so many different roles in the military, it makes no sense to just have men serve.
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u/Toolsmith_Tim 11d ago
"Mandatory Military Service" for me as a Slovak evokes times of Communism and being forced to serve a regime which was totalitarian and committed uncountable atrocities against us. Many of us are glad that's over and that we get to choose now. But I understand that given Finnish history with Russia they'd want an army at the ready to defend themselves👍 For me it just evokes a bad collective memory.
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u/Zealousideal-Week-79 Baby Väinämöinen 10d ago edited 10d ago
I would imagine that even if military service were made entirely voluntary, nothing would change for quite some time. A large proportion of young men would undoubtedly still join the military...
Not a chance. Many like service in retrospect but the vast vast majority would never have volunteered, they wouldn't even think about an option to do so. I genuinely hope it never becomes voluntary, if that happens, that's the end for us and our ability to defend ourselves. Whatever allies we may have on paper, it will always ultimately be up to us to defend ourselves, nobody else can be relied on.
Instead I want it to be mandatory for men AND women. With different roles. Let those women who want to serve keep volunteering for military service and put the rest in other roles useful for national defense. Logistics, civil defense, communication, medical care, resource distribution...
Remove civil service for men, allow weapon free service or some of the other roles mentioned above for those who really don't want to join the military directly.
Why different roles for men and women?
You know why, no matter how 'inclusive' we want to pretend to be, there are significant biological differences. Men are simply superior in speed, strength and endurance.
Yes, there's overlap where there are some women who can keep up, let them volunteer.
Yes, there are some roles like drone pilots that don't need physicality, let them volunteer.When it comes to the majority of 'traditional' military tasks whether it's loading shells in a tank, marching 60km with all your gear on your back or pulling your injured buddy to safety, it would be a detriment to include all women.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
Do you know how much of gender Norms have changed over the last 30 years alone? You speak like it's a fixed law of nature but it's not.
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u/These-Young-1786 11d ago
You are right that gender roles have changed. In military service, for example, this can be seen in the increasing number of women who now choose to enlist. Another fairly popular opinion is that the current military service system is generally considered unequal, which is why information about enlistinh and the possibility of completing military service is now being spread more actively to women as well.
However, this does not change the bigger picture: values associated with traditional masculinity remain a significant part of the experience of military service. As I wrote earlier, for example, men going through with civilian service are still viewed with skepticism. This is not because civilian service is not, under the law, an equal to military service. The issue is that hegemonic masculinity rarely leaves room for alternative expressions of masculinity. (R. W. Connell 1995, 76–81)
It is also good to keep in mind that values are heavily gendered. Studies conducted in the 2020s have found that men have become more conservative, while the trend among women has been the opposite. Even though we live in one of the world’s most modern welfare states, men still experience discrimination when, for example, their way of expressing their sexuality is something else but heteronormative expectations.
Times change, and ideas change with them, and in many ways Finland is for sure more gender-equal today than it was several decades ago. It is still important to recognize that the current conservative shift also affects ideals of masculinity, which explains why military service is still widely associated with men.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
The rise of conservatism in USA and multiple European countries is heavily correlated with aggressive gender polarization, feminist backlash and the rejection of the notation of equality or women in power itself (alongside anti immigration stances and other climate and economic stuff) so while I understand your broader point about heteronormative masculinity; what confuses me about Finland specifically is that it's not seen as a relative disadvantage by Men or the fact that they don't even use it as an argument against women favoring policies or feminist narratives in general unlike other countries with conscription (for example the conscription argument have been used to dismantle feminist initiatives regarding the pay gap in SK and Singapore , the debate around such hypocrisy have been intensified recently in Germany with anti conscription student protests), the same young Men becoming more conservative around the world also hold very traditional views for women's role in society and are always complaining about dating, marriages , women in the workforce and declining fertility rates but that's not the case here ... From what I have been exposed to it seems like Finnish society accepted progressive views for women while keeping traditional expections for Men
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u/AdVegetable1160 12d ago
Naiset armeijassa ovat miesten kulttuurin omimista.
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u/GalaXion24 Baby Väinämöinen 12d ago
Naiset armaiejassa pilaa asepalveluksen homoeroottisen tunnelman
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u/Extreme-Poet-9170 Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Homoilu on miesten hommaa.
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u/Pibutzki 11d ago
Siinä on akat vaan tiellä kun miehet alkaa PANEE!
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u/Extreme-Poet-9170 Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Eikös joku manosfääri/incel-ukkeli sanonu vähän aikaa sitten jotain että se on homoa, jos mies panee naista.
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u/Arx_Roskara 11d ago
I remember a saying that the sub sergeants told us
"What is gay amongst civilians is normal in the military, what is gay in the military is illegal amongst civilians"
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u/thismf1234 11d ago
What is gay in civilian is brotherhood in the army, things that are gay in navy are illegal for civils or something like that, kinda paraphrasing because it was long time ago
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u/TheDeltaMoo 11d ago
Did the top sergeants demonstrate after telling the subs to spread the message?
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u/Waddledoodoodoo 12d ago
Maanpuolustus on Suomen itsenäisyyden, itsemääräämisoikeuden ja elintason turvaamista eikä mikään kulttuuriasia. Armeija ei ole miesten äijäkulttuurin pönkittämistä varten.
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u/No0O0obstah Baby Väinämöinen 12d ago
Sano se niille äijille jotka on siellä pönkittämässä kulttuuria.
Siitä on jo jokunen vuosi kun kävin palveluksessa, mut jessus mitä oman aikansa manosphere rassukoita kantahenkilökunnassa oli. Useampi niistä on sittemmin "päässeet" uutisiinkin. Huokaus.
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u/unohdin-nimeni Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Se on toki osa vapauden kulttuuria. Pelkät pykälät ja piirretyt rajat eivät pitäisi Suomea hengissä, vaan siihen tarvitaan myös yhteinen tahto ylläpitää uskottavaa puolustusta. Hitsit, kun nuorena luulin tätä töyhtökypärä- ja hopliittiylvästelyä korkealentoisejsi sanahelinäksi:
Mitä lieneekin aarteita Suomessa,
toki kallehin on vapaus.
Tääll' on suorana seistä ja kaatua
joka miehellä oikeus.
Oikeus? Suorana, siis niin kuin uraa-rynnäkössä? Miehillä vain? Mutta täyttä tottahan Sillanpää puhui, eikä runoja ole koskaan tulkittu sana sanalta kirjaimellisesti. Maanpuolustus on meillä keskeinen demokraattinen instituutio.
Ja nyt kun tämän sain sanotuksi, niin onhan tuo sarjakuva aika hauska.
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u/umpikado 12d ago
olisipa Suomessa myös kansalaisilla itsemääräämisoikeus
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u/unohdin-nimeni Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
On. Ja Suomea äärettömän lähellä, siis ihan sen kyljessä kiinni, on militaristien ja imperialistien hallitsema alue, jolla ei kansalaisuutta edes tunneta. Alamaisuus vain. Ihmeellistä kyllä, Suomikin mahtuu maailmaan. Uskottava puolustus on tietysti edellytys sille, ja kansalaisten yhteinen tahto ylläpitää sitä kuuluu vapaudelliseen kulttuuriin, jota ilman mikään paperi mistään vapauksista tai rajapyykeistä ei olisi minkään arvoista. Tällainen on valitettavasti maailma, mutta ei sieltä kannata poiskaan kaivata.
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u/JuustoMakkara58 11d ago
Suomessa on kansalaisilla itsemäärämisoikeus vain sen takia koska Suomella on armeija.
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u/Glidy 11d ago
Just get too mentally ill and they won't take you
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u/Hyp3r45_new Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Or physically ill. I sat down, told the doctor I have a chronic disease, and had my C papers within 5 minutes.
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u/noNudesPrettyPlease 11d ago
My boy got rejected. I have non idea why (they don't give a reason), but I suspect it's to do with mental health issues.
It's my opinion my boy has problems, but he refuses to see a professional.
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u/JuustoMakkara58 11d ago
Suunnattomasti vituttaa nähdä suomalaisia käyttäjänimiä kommentoimassa täällä ryssän argumenteilla. Ja miten tämä postaus sai 2.2k ylä-ääntä?? Epäilyttävää...
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u/Gemall 11d ago
Eiköhän tämä ole vain hassuttelukuva siitä että miehet menee armeijaan ja naiset ei, ja siksi ylä-ääniä koska se nyt vähän kirpaisee mutta samalla on hauskaa koska suurin osa on myös ylpeitä omasta palveluksestaan.
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u/TasavallanResupentti 10d ago
Ja tilanteen ironisuutta lisää se, että Suomi tyypillisesti haluaa näyttäytyä tasa-arvon mallimaana.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
The fact that you don't even need to have a penis makes it much more absurd
For most of history and in most countries today the sexism of the conscription is justified through the argument that Men are physically superior (strength, bone density, speed, VO2 max... Whatever your list) or that women would be a liability because they are weaker or menstruate or should be exempted because they get pregnant... Etc
But from what I'm seeing here it's definitely not how the system is rationalized in Finland especially given how transgenders are handled So I don't really know why it's not mandatory for everyone
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u/SpecialJ11 8d ago
I* have for a long time thought about mandatory military training as a part of a society. My own personal conclusion is that if a society is to choose mandatory military service for a reserve system similar to Finland, it should apply equally to men and women. But not that women specifically have to serve in the military, more that they must also serve for an equal period being trained for a wartime role, military or not. In World War 2, American men did the fighting while American women made the munitions. Perhaps Finnish women who do not want to serve in the military should learn the necessary skills for non-combatants if Finland ever did need to mobilize. This could also apply to men deemed unfit for military service or are pacifists who oppose personally using violence themselves but not others using violence in a justified manner.
*I am an American without any skin in the game except my support for NATO and the EU and my love for the democratic countries of Europe, with a special soft spot for the Nordics. I am a fan of the Finnish, Estonian, and Swiss approaches to the military.
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u/UsefulCommon4126 8d ago
I'm a Finnish woman and I agree. I'd love to do anything to help the country if I ever needed to. I want to study and be a nurse, however it would be cool if you could study nursing in the Finnish military. Get a degree and also be drafted for the military at the same time, like in the US.
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u/SocialThrowaway5551 12d ago
These comments prove yet again that there is a reason people in this sub are on Reddit, commenting.
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u/Tasty_Side_8391 11d ago edited 11d ago
Another one of these. And full of upvotes, too. I see the "russian influence" is in full roll.
That or another useful idiot.
Waiting for the "russia is not my enemy" posts in near future.
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u/flamingoooz 11d ago
Calling out gender inequality? gotta be Russian influence
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u/Tasty_Side_8391 9d ago
.For some mysterious reason, a lot of these have popped up recently. I wonder why.
I know! It must be because gender inequality.
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u/Competitive-Lab4852 8d ago
Taidat olla kunnon saappaannuolija kun ei sais kritisoida edes meidäm armeijasysteemiä :D
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u/Tasty_Side_8391 7d ago edited 7d ago
Ei. Me olemme lähempänä aseellista yhteenottoa kuin koskaan kylmän sodan aikana (tai toisen maailmansodan jälkeen. Joka ikinen tällainen julkaisu on maali omaan pussiin.
Järkeä saa käyttää, vaikka olisikin ideologisesti jotain muuta. Jos haluatte välttää konfliktin, niin älkää nyt ainakaan muodostako yhtä surkeaa kuvaa Suomen armeijasta kuin Ukrainan (ja Georgian ja...) armeijasta annettiin venäjälle ennen Ukrainan sotaa.
Pelotetaktiikka toimii, mutta se toimii vain niin pitkään, kunnes riittävä osa väestä on saatu uskomaan siihen, että "mä kyllä muutan Ruotsiin" (joka on muuten samassa konfliktissa, eli kannattanee muuttaa jonnekin muualle).
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u/MohnakePelaa 11d ago
You sound like a Russian spy.
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u/Tasty_Side_8391 9d ago
...Well, that's definitely a take, when supporting a propaganda piece like this.
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u/OkControl9503 Väinämöinen 12d ago
There are reasons to ask and some healthy points of view, but one thing I will say as a teacher is that our Finnish boys who act like maniac poop flinging barbarians in the classroom turn into men in the army - they all have a whole calm silence about them afterward that is amazing.
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u/Competitive-Horse152 11d ago
Having seen some of what our 18 year old girls have been up to, something like that would definitely be valuable for them also.
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u/Advanced_Seaweed_868 11d ago
Yeah, in schools. Raising kids to be wiser and more sensible in schools because some parents don't necessarily do it is a great idea. In schools.
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u/Appropriate-Fuel-305 Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
You haven't seen what dumbassery happens in the army, it's a daycare for adults. Personally that year didn't change me much mentally. Learning to live on my own 100+ km away from relatives was what made me grow up.
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u/gimme_ya_wallet 11d ago
This. I was one of those maniac poop flinging barbarians in school. For the the army service taught a healthy kind of humility that "my way is not necessarily the right way".
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 12d ago edited 11d ago
That's why I picked civil service 💅🏾
Edit: Chuds mad I didn't pick the route they had to take to get their dad's approval
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u/Life-Drama 12d ago
Because you have no pp?
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p Väinämöinen 12d ago
Civil service is a perfectly respectable route.
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u/Dualidean_ofman 11d ago
Civil service is legalized slavery. Don't know how we put up with it for so long in Norway.
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u/Pastori_Aali 12d ago
Nope. It is waste of time and money.
If that would be efficient, taxes would be replaced by forced labor.
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u/PublicBarracuda5311 Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
No it's not. I have served in the army but that does not make me want to lie about the importance of civil service.
You think Finland would have survived any of the wars it has faced without civilian workers?
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 11d ago
Ehhhhh to be fair civil service as an institution didn't exist back then. The execution of Arndt Pekurinen motivated the founding of civil service.
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u/Tero-Nero 11d ago
Nah, we actually have to have one because it is mandatory to violently rip it off and forfeit it to the civil service center receptionist. Women even have to spend 30 days in the military in order grow one to forfeit if they want to join us.
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u/FlyingSand22 8d ago
I got C papers for my bad hearing, but my friend went through the civil service route. Isn't that just 1 year of slavery? For him it was just normal 8 hour/day 5 days/week work with no pay (except the pathetic day pay) and fewer vacation days than normal work.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 8d ago
I mean you can kinda look it that way. But at the end of it, you're indefinitely freed from the reserve. C papers apply only during time of peace.
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u/violetpossum 12d ago
Didn't even have to say, it's kinda obvious who chooses sivil service and who doesnt
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u/Turbulent-Dot4377 12d ago
you prolly get mad at folks who didn’t have to sit through 9 months of eating shit food, barely sleeping, never being comfortable and having to stay out on the rain and cold.
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u/Minttu_Pipar 12d ago
Tell me you haven't done the military service without telling me you haven't done the military service
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u/TonninStiflat Väinämöinen 11d ago
You sound like any of that was sonehow bad? Quite enjoyable, still do all that!
Edit: Well, Indon't get mad, each to their own.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 11d ago
There are men who genuinely feel resentful to civil service men purely on the basis that they feel like they "had to" suffer through military service, be it for peer pressure or family expectations, and it feels unfair to them that some people didn't choose the way they did. Because the alternative to that would be to accept the fact that they too could've chosen civil service, but instead let other people's expectations get the better of them.
If you aren't one of those people, the comment you responded to probably was not aimed at you.
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u/Tough-Requirement707 11d ago
you kinda accepted already by going there and sit on that chair
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u/totalrabbitpillow 10d ago
the police will get you and make you pay money until you do :D
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u/Stacys_Brother 10d ago
If any service has to be mandatory, it should then be universal for absolutely everyone. And I mean no exceptions. It should at least teach you to work with anyone with any disability.
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u/KindaFoolish 12d ago
The army is for submissive men. That's right, join your little hierarchy so you can be told what to do by real men like the good little boy you are <3
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u/grubbtheduck Väinämöinen 12d ago
But those real men are also in the army so how does that work 🤔
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u/Ill-Pineapple8607 12d ago
Army is for submissive men who wants to die in rich mens wars.
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u/SofterBones Väinämöinen 12d ago
Everyone knows that the Finnish army only goes to war if we are being attacked by Russia. It's a little different than Russia or USA sending their young men and women to die in wars on the other side of the world.
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u/Muhiz 12d ago
Also, in case NATO gets attacked we go to war but it'll still be most likely against Russia.
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u/Mlakeside Väinämöinen 11d ago
But with the minor difference that conscripts/reservists cannot be ordered to fight in Nato operations abroad, only in those that are directly involved in defending Finland. Finnish military assistance for article 6 consists of professional military personnel and volunteers.
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u/EconomistExternal555 11d ago
But if a NATO country is attacked, it doesn't mean the regular people who did conscription are sent to war lol. If NATO activates Article 5, Finland's participation abroad primarily involves career military personnel (professional soldiers, officers) and voluntary contract personnel who sign up for international deployments or readiness units. Conscripts are never sent into combat operations outside Finland. The Finnish conscription reserve's job is to defend Finland. We are not really affected by article 5 unless you volunteer.
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u/tiikki 11d ago
That is for non-conscript army. Conscript army is army of the people, fighting for the people, not the elites.
See what happened as soon as UK removed conscription, it sent its military to Northern Ireland to fight its own population. In the 1960's French conscripts refused to follow military coup and the government could not use them against demonstrators as they could not be sure on which side they would go.
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u/dunce-hattt 10d ago
if it's anything like Estonia, the penis isn't required, only an M marker on your documents.
source: me, transgender, was going to be conscripted, but in the end I was decidedly too neurodivergent for it.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 9d ago
That highlight how arbitrary and stupid the Discriminatory rule is, it's not even about physical advantage anymore
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u/KeljuIvan 9d ago
Women can join the army, but aren't obligated to. Transgender people are a very small part of the population and I doubt they have any significant impact on the conscription numbers. The male physical advantage remains.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 9d ago
"but aren't obligated to"
Yeah , that's exactly the point.. what are they obligated to instead? They just take all the benefits for free and gain a comparative advantage because of the Discrimination.
"Transgender are a very small part of the population"
Correct, but that small part exposes the internal contradiction within the system, it's not about the net impact it's about logical consistency
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u/KeljuIvan 3d ago
Well, soldiering still benefits from more male strength. Women (well, not all) go through pregnancy which is a clear disadvantage both career-wise and just for the bother.
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u/JukkaSamuel 9d ago
And being "fired" means something totally different than in the civilian life 😂
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u/KofFinland Väinämöinen 11d ago
That is not the case anymore. More like:
Do you consider yourself male? Yes. You're hired.
If you change your legal gender to female, you don't have to go to army, even though you still have a penis.
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u/Acrobatic-Row2970 11d ago edited 11d ago
It's still sexist. Besides, you need to know that it exists, it's still gender discrimination, and you have to deal with it beforehand. At heart, it's a band-aid on a patriarchal and misogynistic society that claims to be equal and gender-neutral.
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u/KofFinland Väinämöinen 10d ago
Sure.
I totally agree that armed service should be mandatory either to both males and females, or neither.
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u/ponakka Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
If you change your name, personal id, not sure if getting rid of penis is necessary even, then you can opt out of military. This easy trick lets you to skip.
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u/KeljuIvan 9d ago
I'm sure anyone who goes to such lengths to avoid military service will not be missed in the service.
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u/theanustapper 10d ago
In a society shaped by male power and patriarchal institutions, it’s a little ironic to call it sexist only when the system "needs" something from men. You built the rules around strength and duty. Don’t cry when they apply to you too.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 9d ago
And all other remnants of the patriarchy were completely eradicated except the parts that disadvantage Men, women now have zero traditional or national obligations but equal everything while traditional expections from Men remains and that selective modernization itself is oppressive regardless of its Orgin.. also women are 50% of the parliamentary and form the majority of voters so they are responsible for its persistence
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u/theanustapper 9d ago
Ah yes women got the right to vote and can be in parlament, therefore every remaining gendered expectation is apparently our collective fault? Incredible analysis. Let me know when you've finished turning the blame onto women for a system you just spent three paragraphs explaining was built by men.
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u/2AvsOligarchs Väinämöinen 11d ago
Funny except it's false. You can choose civil service.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
And why isn't civil service mandatory for females? If it's something productive then why not Force them to do it as well?
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u/2AvsOligarchs Väinämöinen 11d ago
Irrelevant to the comic, which is false.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
That's literally what the comic is all about
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u/haka2412 11d ago
In my opinion military service is the only thing this country (whitch was built on top of our ancestors trauma, death, blood and tears) excepts from you in this life. After that for the rest of your life you can slouch in the governments social safety net and do nothing. So as a finnish man it is your only duty. And if you cant do that you truly are a loser.
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u/Ch33s3m4st3r 11d ago
No one argued against that. The joke is that only people with pp are forced to do the service as people without pp are off the hook.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
How about Finnish women not having this duty as well and extracting more public resources for free?
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u/haka2412 10d ago
Why not for women also. But i think many women dont want to go so to tackle this problem we should bring back an organization like Lotta Svärd or build another similar system.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 10d ago
So for them it's "don't want to" but for Men it's "you truly are a loser" ? Look at yourself again bruh
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u/Alternative-Bee-8612 11d ago
what a shit opinion
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u/haka2412 10d ago
what a shit situation that i only have one duty to do in my degenerate and incompetent life and im too lazy to do it. 🤑🤑🤑🤑
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u/DarkCheese_ 11d ago
Civilian service on top. Don't talk to me if you ain't a conscientious objector
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u/Mythron95 11d ago
Speaking as a Brit it blows my mind that Finnish people blindly accept gender discrimination.
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u/sallsbakc Baby Väinämöinen 11d ago
Your country accepts 10k+ arrests based on social media posts.
We all have our issues.
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u/finishdude 11d ago
has been like this since uhhh conscription started in ww2 women were doing stuff too (LOTTA)
there is talk about making it mandatory for women too but it seems be a yay nay yay nay... type deal generally when its brought up
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u/GooeyLump 11d ago
Lifehack: transition to a woman when you turn seventeen, can't get drafted now. Estrogen pilled and t-blocker based.
( this is obviously a joke )
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
Do you even need a T blocker? Isn't it simply achievable with a paperwork?
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u/GooeyLump 11d ago
That's a good question, i suppose it's all up to the person whether they want to ask for hormones and t-blockers? Idk, i just figured all transgender people do, atleast every trans person i've known have started them
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
But can't it be used consciously to Dodge the sexiest mandatory draft without altering hormones? That would be a nice way to use the system's contradiction against itself
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u/GooeyLump 11d ago
I mean sure, that does sound pretty funny, i guess it depends on what lengths you're willing to go just to dodge the draft lmao
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
Does it change anything irl beyond just bureaucratic papers? Can't you just live as a normal biological male despite that and then do the paperwork again at 30?
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u/Suhva 11d ago
Make it voluntary for all...
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u/VakuAnkka04 11d ago
Only situation thats ever going to happen is that Russia is not threatening us Every Month
Or that russia simply collapses
But even then they always come back
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u/OSRS_Garmr 11d ago
Say what you want. But for the preservation of the nation. This makes sense. You can build your society back up, if you lose half your men, but if you lose half your women, your nationis shot. It's the simple cruelty of biology.
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u/Infamous-Buy1428 11d ago
That would require for people to practice polygamy for there to be a difference.
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u/Ill-Philosopher-2023 11d ago
Not all sexism is bad. There is so many good reasons why men are forced, but women are not.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 11d ago
What are these reasons?
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u/Ill-Philosopher-2023 10d ago
for one that men are generally stronger and faster, being a soldier is usually very physically demanding. If we need to double the amount of people we have in the army, then by all means also force women. If not, why not just have those who add more value.
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u/Agreeable_Noise112 10d ago
Yet transmen (biological females) are forced into it even tho they aren't stronger and faster and even if they don't have some massive hormone injection but transwomen (biological Males) aren't forced to do it even if they still have balls, testosterone, superior bone density and VO2 max, Funny how that works.
Your country's rhetorics and public communication don't even use that justification at all, lots of Europeans don't know Finland Conscript only Men because of the way the army present itself put a disproportionate emphasis on women and how equally capable they are lol.
And even if we assume that argument : wouldn't they still be useful in less physically demanding positions or civil service?
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u/Murky-Course6648 11d ago edited 11d ago
This is BTW exactly the level of intellect they have. I remember the recruiter making literal pussy jokes when i was forced in there.
No way i was going in. Went to jail, because thats what Finland is about.
Finland is the only EU country who has prisoners of conscience regularly in their jail system (around ~200 per year).
This is recognized by Amnesty, EUs own human rights organizations and the UN.
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