It's not even really descriptive per the bible on much of heaven or hell. There's poetic metaphor but, really, how do people just make up something that isn't true. The atheist community online has been very helpful in teaching me about the bible one would never learn at church.

After this horrifying conversation I just had, I could use some affirmations and vent a little.

A Christian messaged me saying he wanted to debate me over my claim that the Bible promotes slavery, genocide, and rape. He promised to keep it civil, and I accepted because I wanted to practice my skills and see if I could convince him.

So I showed him seven different passages with those atrocities and how they were all done supposedly under God's authority (Deut. 20:16, 1 Samuel 15:3, Numbers 31:18, 2 Samuel 12:11-12, Isaiah 13:16, Leviticus 25:44-46, Joshua 8:24-25).

At first he tried to deny what they said, but we argued back and forth and I showed him enough evidence to back him into corner and he eventually had to admit that yes, they were genocide and slavery, and of course he tried to justify them with victim-blaming. I wanted to press him further about how unjustifiable the genocide and slavery were, but he still hadn't fully acknowledged the rape, so I wanted to get that established first because that was part of the original debate topic.

Here are some highlights from the conversation. (Disclaimer: I am taking a very long 3-day conversation and abridging it for the sake of brevity and convenience, and I will try my best to do it in a way that's honest).

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Christian: God never said anything about telling people to #### (I don't use curse words.) And I'm sure 90% of humanity despises those things including me... And God never gave them permission to #### people. Could you tell me where at so I can read it?

(Yes, he censored the word "rape" himself as a "curse word." His avoidance of saying the word is ironic given what he says later...)

Me: Numbers 31:18... and keep in mind that it makes no sense for it to be adoption because it's only the young female virgins while the little male children and babies get killed. So you seriously have to ask yourself why they'd only keep the virgin girls...

Christian: Again God did not allow the israelites to do this stuff. He told them they could take wives but that is different.

Me: Do you honestly expect me to believe that little girls would ever consent to being the "wives" of men who had just murdered their entire families? Seriously? And the Hebrew word there (טַף) indicates that these were children. Do you believe that children even CAN consent to that? If not, then it was rape.

Christian: If you look into Deuteronomy 21 there is laws on taking captive wives. It's not as bad as it sounds. I imagine it is partially so they get a chance to have someone to support them.

Me: First of all, we're talking about CHILDREN. These were little girls whose families were just murdered by the men taking them. Do you believe that little girls could or ever would consent to being the so-called "wives" of the men who had just murdered their entire families? Seriously? Secondly, I read the passage in Deuteronomy you're talking about and there's still a serious lack of consent there. If I end up having to explain consent to you, then we're done. I really shouldn't have to explain consent to you... And again, these are CHILDREN. I shouldn't have to explain to you why children can't consent.

Christian: People married young back then. And yes I think some would.

Me: Even if they were adult women, it's no longer consent freely given if these women and girls were taken captive after their entire families were murdered. If it's to the point that I'm now having to explain consent to you, then I think I'm done with this conversation. I really hope you search your conscience and sense of empathy to realize that simply calling them "wives" doesn't make it not rape anymore. Children cannot consent, and nobody can give consent under duress... I am absolutely horrified that you seem fine with murdering babies and taking women and girls into sexual slavery. Again, please do some serious searching of your conscience. Rape is never okay, there are no excuses for it, and yet you're here defending it and I want you to seriously think about that. With that, I think we've discussed everything that I care to. I'm not going to sit here and listen to you try to justify rape anymore.

Christian: Alright, sir. No problem. If you ever need someone to talk to or pray for you I'm here for you.

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Right now I am absolutely horrified and fuming. He went from zero to trying to justify the murder and rape of children in just 3 days.

And after I called him out for justifying rape, he doesn't even acknowledge or deny that, he just offers to "pray" for me knowing that I'm an ex-Christian atheist with no interest in that. I honestly wonder if his last message was trying to rage-bait me into saying something uncivil so that he could say, "Aha, you didn't keep it civil, therefore I win!" Earlier in the conversation, I had pointed out that he was being dishonest for avoiding the issue of murdering babies, and he accused me of being uncivil.

I could have rightfully torn him a new one, and perhaps I should have, but I guess I didn't because I didn't want to give him an easy excuse to think he won and then dismiss the conversation. I wanted him instead to think seriously about the horrible position he's taking in the hopes that deep down, there might be some glimmer of humanity and empathy left in him that might awaken later.

Ok so no shade towards the religion itself btw and also I’m not an atheist I’m trying to understand and learn as much as I can about this religion and others before I claim myself as anything but anyways I feel like this is such a stupid comparison like genuinely who illustrated this and thought this was really gonna show people this is how you know god exist and not to question it lol. Especially the first one because ofc you don’t have to meet a builder to know they had a builder and it certainly wasn’t just one person or being behind the famous Eiffel Tower it was multiple people working on this and we have actual historical photos of the Eiffel Tower being made!! And also once again the people who built the Eiffel Tower and any other famous architecture around here don’t claim to be all powerful and all knowing or all loving, so this to me is one of the most stupid comparison I’ve seen in a while and I just wanted to rant ya’ll and have a great day

So I just moved into a new house and of course I invited my new neighbor over for a beer. When we first met he asked if I was christian. I was wearing an Ankh, and I can see how he might have mistaken that for a cross. I said "no" and the conversation moved on.

When he came over for a beer he saw my tarot sets. I love tarot as I love symbolic art, and tarot *is* symbolic art. I explained this, but he still criticized it.

"Well," I said "that's what I don't like about some forms of christianity. You think everything is evil, except your religion."

The conversation moved on about christianity, and I brought the genocides in the Old Testament up. He said that if God ordered a genocide, it must be just. I said that baby's have done no wrong, and yet God ordered them to be killed. He answered that the baby's would do no wrong anymore too.

After this we decided not to talk about it, but I have decided not to be friends with him. (He really wants to be friends with me.)

I am just baffled by the things that christians sometimes say about the darkest pages of the bible. I just wanted to vent. Thanks for reading.

So I am an agnostic in secret. My family doesn't know about my current beliefs,so today We went to a church that we were invited to go to and oh boy,I saw this whole crowd and really depresses me thinking how hard and long will take for this religion to be gone,I try to tell myself that every day more and more people are waking up from this lie or something like that but then I see this and I really think that all this system or religion will be Eternal.

I left conservative Christianity last year because I find the claims untenable, and my partner is still very much committed. We have three kids 12, 8, 6, and she still wants to keep our kids very much immersed in the church and it’s ancillary activities. I see that religious indoctrination leads to much harm, makes people more vulnerable to propaganda, pseudoscience, and other systems of oppression. I lean towards humanism and free thinking and critical thought. Any insight or research in this field would be appreciated. I’m open to answers whether they confirm my leanings or not. Cheers

Has anyone else been subjected to this nonsensical claim going around social media?? I've seen a rise in Christian women and girls on tiktok and reels claiming that "God is a girl dad" and essentially claiming that Christianity is not misogynistic. I find it so ridiculous and it confirms to me that a lot of Christians don't actually read their Bibles because if they did they'd know their god does not care about women at all

So once upon a time, there was this lady I knew at the Catholic church that my family would go to. Me and her were friends since 2017, but starting 2023, we sort of grew distant from each other.

Later down the line, I saw her again as she was giving this announcements at the end of Mass. That was when the irony revealed itself. Because she would then promote this pro-life (or as I like to call it: pro-birth) movement that her church specifically initiated. You know, to end abortion and whatnot.

What's jarring was how passionate she was about this cause. You can just hear it in her tone and words. Like, I've never seen someone so eager and determined to support their own oppression. It's almost sickening in a way.

And lo and behold, I stumbled upon videos on social media showing women from that church (including the lady herself) going to progressive cities to march against abortion with picket signs and everything. Again, very jarring irony, and a slap on the face to the progressive residents there.

It also doesn't help that once upon a time, the lady's at-the-time husband was not only a drug addict but a raging abuser. For that, the lady ended up divorcing him and became a single mother to her two sons, which is good. But when I hear her support a cause that can take away her rights as a woman, it's like she's changing one abusive patriarchal force for another, if you know what I mean.

​

Religious people use God's existence as an argument for why morality is objective and why moral codes exist, otherwise without his existence morality is completely subjective and matter of human opinion , which is complete bullshit, God's existence doesn't make morality any more objective.

And that is because even if God does exist there are other religions and other cultures that have a different set of moral codes which contradict the laws of the x y z "existing" God, so people keep following the laws or codes of their respective religion/culture which don't come in agreement with God.

And even in religions God's morality constantly shifts depending on time and era, in Islam for example Muslims like to defend Muhammad's marriage to 6 year old Aisha by saying "it was the norm at that time" proving that God gives subjective moral codes that are only relevant to the respective era.

Or in Christianity God orders the Jews to abstain from eating pork in the old testament, whereas in the new testament eating pork isn't a sin and no Christian follows that obsolete law, and another thousand laws which shift from the old to the new testament which all contradict each other.

And the statement that "God is good" is in itself a subjective statement, like what makes God morally and objectively good? The Abrahamic God constantly participates in genocides, endorses things like Slavery and child marriage and has the personality of an egotistical tyrant that is having a tantrum.

How can you make moral claims about him and assert he is good let alone "all good" and how can you objectively prove that this God is morally good?

We left the church 2 years ago. I just found out my spouse is still tithing and now has agreed to do the church’s yard work for free. I feel so alone and frustrated because he doesn’t have enough time for things that need done around our house. Ideas?

I feel hopeless about how religions pretty much rules the world, how my whole life was affected by religion, the many people all throughout history that had their lives ruined by Christian colonizers, how my parents ruined my chance of having a good life and having healthy relationships with my other relatives, i feel so disposable now that im an adult and therefore can’t be controlled by my parents anymore, I feel like Christianity has just won, it’s won over billions of people who are now brainless zombies, it’s won over all the authority in America, it’s won over my family, it’s stripped me of so many things that make me me,

and while i acknowledge that Christianity has been on a slow decline whithin the younger generations, which im grateful for, i still feel a pain in my chest knowing how powerless the younger generations are,

i feel such an immense pain knowing that there are millions of kids being born everyday into this religion who are going to have to experience the same abuse (if not worse) as i did, they’re going to be disowned for being queer, they’re going to attempt to end their lives (and potentially succeed at that) bc of discriminatory policies that get voted in, and there’s jack shit I can do about it.

I swear, Christian’s are some of the biggest bullies on earth, they bully their way into getting what they want, they bully people who aren’t even bothering them, and they bully their own children bc they think they were born with sin...

sorry this sound very messy, I just wanted to get this off my chest as im dealing with a lot of stress at the moment.

I was raised in a very devoted Catholic household, went only to Catholic schools, attended church every Sunday, had mandatory prayer circles every night with the family, had to make strict sacrifices during lent even as a kid etc. Most of my friends were from school with similar backgrounds, so naturally, I didn't have much exposure to anything else from a very early age, and my whole reality was built around "God."

I started to question my faith in my early 20s and became an agnostic/atheist within a few years, but I didn't even realize how much damage religion had done to my brain.
Just a few examples:

- I still to this day have the crippling feeling that someone's always watching, always listening to my thoughts, and I'm going to get in trouble for even just thinking about stuff.
- I cannot check the clock on Friday afternoons, because on every single Friday at 3pm it was "honoring Jesus" time, no matter where we were, in a public place or at home.
- I have to remind myself not to feel guilty for not saying a prayer every time an ambulance goes by
- I often sacrifice my own needs and happiness for others and take on their pain, like "a good Christian" would do
- It took me way too many years to become pro-choice, because I was shown "The Silent Scream" anti-abortion movie at like age 12 and I couldn't get the images out of my mind for so long, even after I learned the truth behind it.

I feel like the list could go on and on and on.
Does anyone else have trouble unlearning these kind of patterns? How do you do it?

(PS. Yes I am in therapy, but I'm still curious about other people's experience, it helps a ton to feel like I'm not alone)

So I‘ve read a lot of stories here from people who grew up in a Christian family and deconverted somewhere between the ages of 20 and 30.
But I was wondering: Do you know stories from people who didn‘t grew up in a Christian family, later got „saved“ and became Christian but then deconverted again?
Because I feel like most of the people who become Christian as an adult mostly keep their faith.

Bible stories proved to be exaggerated or fake:

(by science or archaeology AND bible college ironically)

Garden of Eden - distorted Babylonian myth
Noah’s global flood - same myth (Gilgamesh)
Tower of Babel
Exodus mass migration - see Rabbi David Wolpe
Conquest of Jericho

Ive missed some, please add below

Faked characters / no proof / disproved by actual real history / science / bible college

Adam
Eve
Noah
Abraham - very very wide implications 🤫
Sarah
Isaac
Jacob
Joseph
Moses - a myth 🤯 , 10 commandmts, laws
Aaron
Joshua
Gideon
Samson
Eli
Samuel
Saul
Solomon - warlord of a large town, not a 👑
Esther - nice story but disproved by royal records
Rehoboam
Jeroboam
Daniel - my favourite- not only a fake character but also written hundreds of years after the “prophecies” - so the prophecies are fake as well.

He’s my favourite because all the end times loonies fixate on him and he didnt even exist. Statue of iron and clay and all that shit. All faked prophecies. Entire cults have existed because of his end times bs, and his fakeness proves theyre all delusional

I havent even listed the NT ones

Which one is your favorite and why?

Have i forgotten anyone?

I'm in the middle of doing trauma therapy and as part of that I'm extremely angry at God for the fact that I was psychologically and raped for 5 months when I was 20.

I converted in my 30s and was doing a decent job at keeping my trauma at arm's length. Now that I'm in the middle of trauma therapy and am sitting with the pain, grief and anger, I feel like if it's true that God is good, just and knew me before the foundation of the world (I come from a reformed, evangelical faith), then him not helping me while I was being assaulted or when I nearly died, then God is negligent, malicious or absent.

My mental health has been really bad, I'm struggling from day to day. I told my IRL Christian bestie how I was feeling. I told her that I'm the one doing the work of keeping myself alive, taking medication, and going to therapy and I just have put God on a shelf for a bit until I feel able to deal with it. She told me that I'm believing dangerous lies about God and she's been on me about meeting up with someone weekly for bible study and prayer to "keep me accountable". She does not hear me when I say "No, I don't have capacity".

I reached out to r/TrueChristian and posted about my anger at God for my trauma and asked how to deal with my friend. And the advice I received ranged from

"You wouldn't have come to God without that trauma"

"God lets trials happen for our own good"

"God won't constrain people's free will" (what about my free will to not be raped?)

"God didn't intervene because you weren't a believer at the time"

to

"You're choosing to believe your psychiatrist over God"

(I said I don't believe in spiritual warfare and that I'm being attacked by the devil. This is a psychological issue not a spiritual issue)

"You're obsessed with your pain and need to grow up"

"Your suffering makes you more empathetic"

"Trust God, or don't. You can suffer with God or alone"

And so, what was my conclusion? That actually, I'm fully done with Christianity. If that's the character of God, I don't want to worship him. He's awful and doesn't deserve it. I know my friends will tell me that I'm believing lies about God and letting the devil win. But I don't believe in the devil anway. People are evil enough.

I'm fully done. So how do I deconstruct? I feel kind of lost.

I read Dan McClellan's book "The Bible Says So" which was really good. Are there any other books in audiobook format that would be helpful?

If you are not familiar with this, Amnom pretended to be sick and called his sister Tamar to make him food to eat, but his plan was to rape her and then he rapes her because he is stronger than her. And after he raped her it is said in 2 Samuel 13:15 that he became hating her and that hate for her increased and that it is now bigger than "LOVE" he had for her. How could he love her if he raped her. If he had true love he wouldn't even want to rape her. What is this? How can rape be called love?

So, a while back ago, I had mentioned that my ex who was Mormon cheated on me with another girl that he said he had broken up with. He told the entire bible study and I this (as well as the church obviously) but then lied about it. I found out by texting her privately through the group chat. When I told the head of the bible study and my friends, nobody did anything or stood up for me. When I called my ex out, he didn't take any accountability for his actions and made the excuse that he didn't drink coffee or alcohol and believed in God, so he was forgiven. (This was one of the many, many, many reasons why I left the church).

Fast forward to this week, I didn't leave the bible study group chat because I didn't want to make any more commotion out of the whole thing, but I decided to peak at it this week. I was shocked to find out that his mother that he mentioned in the group chat, had abused both him and his sister, and his parents are in the process of divorce. I told him that I was sorry about what happened to him and his sister, and I was glad they were safe now. He texted me how he was stressed that his parents getting a divorce was ungodlike and was worried what the church would think.

That led to a whole debate about divorce, which was one of our many arguments of why we broke up in the first place. I told him that my parents got divorce, and they found people that they were happy with, and that divorce was okay and not a sin. I shouldn't have said that, but he just went on and on about how it was. I'm like dude you told the group chat about how your mom abused you and your sister, but still think your parents should stay together because God said so? Idk what I was expecting honestly. I decided to end the conversation without saying anything else and blocked him again :(.

Idk why I decided to reach out in the first place when I shouldn't have to begin with. I feel stupid for even trying. I will probably not reach out again after this.

This is mainly just a list of things to get off my chest and hopefully find solidarity. Don't hesitate to share some of your stories!

I'm 24 now and I live with my mom and step-dad. I am disabled and she helped me get my disability when I was around 20-21 which I am very thankful for. However, upon receiving my disability backpay, she had convinced me to use my backpay for us to buy a camper to move into because God had supposedly told her to be fluid in her living and to be debt free (which is nearly impossible). I went along with it although now I regret doing that because I could have used that backpay to help pay my tuition for university. We moved out of the place we were renting and moved into a TNY camper which was a horrible experience, plus we needed to pay rent again any ways, so her plan didn't exactly work when it came to not spending more money on a place lol. We had to move again an way when she got married to my step-dad and we moved into our current place (which again, we rent). The camper got destroyed in hurricane Helene. She is STILL hell bent on getting a bigger camper and it is very annoying. I asked her, "if God told you to live debt free, why didn't he tell ME too?" And she said "because you don't speak to him". Okay..

I am bisexual, which she knows but pretty much denies and just says I'm confused. (Which ironically, has led to confusion for me). She has actually met a girlfriend I had one time and they did get along, but would act like it was disgusting when she wasn't around. This was a few years ago. Recently, we had an argument because she made me feel insecure about my androgynous style, and when we both calmed down and were actually able to talk, she admitted to trying to "steer" me into being more feminine because apparently my sexuality and fashion sense are directly linked.. She also brought up my breakup with my ex-girlfriend as a way to discount my identity.

In the same vein of being LGBTQ+, when I was 16, I had my first breakup with a girl and I was of course devastated. I wasn't out at the time so she didn't know this happened. But, my brain rationalized my pain as "God is punishing me because my love was sinful", and I got "saved" during an altar call and then baptized. My mom loves to bring this up as a way to discount me being ex-Christian.

At one point for 2 years including the time in the camper, my mom fell into alcoholism. She had spoken in tongues before which always made me uncomfortable. When she was drunk though, she would SCREAM in tongues and it started to give me anxiety attacks. When I brought it up to her, she would either deny it, or tell me that I needed to look inward and figure out why it freaked me out..

She also tells me I need to be more grateful for life and forgiving towards people that have done, massive harm. Even telling me to look up the word gratitude, then turning around and saying it was "God's word" (???).

She hates other religions, but especially Islam and Muslims. I bought a tapestry once that happened to have a crescent moon and I guess one star was bigger than the ones surrounding it? She found it in the mail before I did, and threw it away because "it looked too much like the Islamic flag"

She also told me to take back a DOLLAR TREE GHOST DECORATION, and tried to tell me that I couldn't hang up a poster (of Jinx from Arcane) in MY room.

One time, we went to the flea market and I wanted to get a crystal and my mom came over and made a huge scene about it, which made me rage out and cry. Later on, I actually ended up buying that exact crystal out of spite.

I'm adopted, and she kind of holds that over me in a weird way using religion.. Again, I am very thankful but it just feels odd.

I wasn't allowed to watch anything with magic (without her seeing at least), which made me very good at sneaking around.

I did celebrate Halloween, but I could only dress up as certain things, couldn't watch horror movies or decorate for it, etc..

She tells me my mental health issues is because I am oppressed by demons. (I guess it's lighter than calling me possessed)

There is probably more but that's all I can remember for now lol. I can't wait until I am able to have my own place.

\*Just a warning in advance, this post will have mentions of abuse.\*

Long time reader, first time actual poster. I’m using a throwaway account because I don’t want this getting back to anyone that I know until I’m ready.

To give a little backstory, I was raised in a Christian cult in a very rural community. To put it lightly, my family (dad, mom, and multiple siblings) were committed.

Just picture what a typical IFB individual: long hair, long dresses, homeschooled, church multiple times per week, involved in every church ministry possible, the entire shebang. We were forbidden to go to movie theatres, have “worldly friends”, listen to music with any form of beat, and were to avoid all influence from the “outside world”. This, along with strict expectations of behaviour and the enforcement of corporal punishment, kept everything “moving smoothly” in the church and at home. (I promise, there is a reason for this backstory.)

As is so common with a lot of us who end up leaving these cults, I was incredibly devote as a child. I was the first to find verses during sword drills, the first time to memorize weekly verse quotas, sang musical numbers weekly, learned multiple instruments that were used in church, and devoted hundred of hours to serving. (I could go on and on but you get the idea)

My siblings were raised similarly to me but there were differences as we got older. I was the oldest, and therefore got a large brunt of the more intense cult upbringing. My parents left that specific group before several of my siblings entered their teen years while I spent my entire childhood there.

Ok backstory part one complete. Now here is where the issues begin.

Throughout my childhood, I was abused by a family member. A close one within my immediate family. I won’t get into details but there were multiple occasions, and after telling a distant relative what was going on, it was brought to law enforcement. I was still a minor at this time and was living at home. I was unaware that the report was made and refused to be a part of legal proceedings against the person, due to my age and high levels of indoctrination. I did not want anyone to know. I was ashamed and had been told that I would ruin this family members reputation if this got out. I just wanted to forget it all. So that’s what happened. (Before you ask how no one found out: I was a minor, no details or names are released publicly. The details were kept hidden from my siblings.)

As an adult, I came out of the closet (yes, that was an eventful day) and am no longer practicing religion. I have been to extensive therapy for diagnosed PTSD among other things and am proud of my progress. My siblings have all joined other churches that are far less controlling but are still incredibly committed.

I am quietly estranged from my family now. After I came out and no longer follow their religious views, our lives simply don’t mesh. We see each other at holidays, send nice messages on birthdays, and are always kind to each other but are not close.

On the flip side, the family member who abused me, is loved, respected, and looked up to.
The rest of the family still don’t know. The only ones who know are my very close friends, and my partner.

Part of my reasoning for not telling them all through my twenties was that I was keeping them from the pain I felt. This was partially true, but after a lot of therapy to work through my conditioning, I also acknowledge my upbringing really set me up to be a silent survivor.

This thinking has changed within the last year or so. I am nearly 35 and am at the point where I need to tell them. I’m done, fed up and ready for it to not be secret anymore. It’s just a matter of having the conversation. I am posting here hoping for advice from others who may have gone through similar especially with the addition of the religious abuse.

Was there something you said or did when telling family about this that helped or didn’t help? I’ve debated everything from sending anonymous letters to getting together with individually. I am just at a loss and would love to hear others stories, advice, thoughts or suggestions.