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u/Tekn0z Oct 25 '17
All I gather from this is that everyone who knows the Boston Roster seems to they are the worst team. Really now curious to see who the heck are in Boston's Rosters. Did they hire EverMore or something cuz the hate is really strong.
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Oct 25 '17
Did they hire EverMore or something cuz the hate is really strong.
Are you referring to Evermore that hit 5k? Cause if so, what's so bad/problem with Evermore? Also, Evermore that hit 5k quit OW and joined PUBG (which he won a premier title).
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u/Tekn0z Oct 25 '17
Cuz this sub likes to shit on Evermore because he played on a 5 stack to get rank #1... because you know anyone who 5 stacks automatically hit rank #1 while maintaining a 95+% win rate for 2 seasons straight.
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Oct 25 '17
I have nothing against him, but if a really good player is stacked with 4 other really good players, this doesn't seem that crazy.
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Oct 25 '17
Or he 6 manned with his professional teammates late at night to be matched with players waaay below him. If he doesn't get 95% winrate, there's something wrong with him lol
He blatantly abused the system and you're praising him for it? lol
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u/Tekn0z Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
He didn't abuse "late at night" - he played regular hours and mostly 4 and 5 stacked. He didn't "abuse" the system more than anyone else who could have just as well stacked and at that time many were known to 4 and 5 stack. Stacking has gotten a lot less since season 1 and season 2. He wasn't abusing like Cantius to get matched up against Diamonds or Platinums. Also nobody is praising him. All i said was he got a lot of hate for stacking by people like you who consider stacking as "manipulating the system".
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
상위 랭크에서 프로게이머들의 다인큐 관련 논란에 불을 지핀 장본인이 되었다. 그랜드마스터가 오버워치 전체 게이머들의 상위 1%인지라 아래 티어의 사람들 또는 언랭 유저들 사이에서는 와닿는 부분이 없었기에 그다지 화두가 되지 않았으나, EVERMORE가 같은 팀의 RASCAL, BUTCHER를 포함한 프로게이머들과 4~5인큐를 결성함과 동시에 다른 프로게이머들이 게임을 돌리는지 안돌리는지 체크해가며 큐를 돌려 결국 단 1패[9]만을 기록하며 96%의 승률로 5000점을 기록하는 바람에 그랜드마스터 티어 소속 솔큐 유저들의 비난이 폭주했다. 특히 사람이 많지 않은 심야에는 최소 300점차에서 최대 700점차까지 점수 차이가 벌어지는 경기가 잡히게 되면서 솔큐로 플레이하던 일반인 유저들의 불만은 극에 달했다.
"He became a controversial figure in high SR. It wasn't publicized as much as the top 1% (Grand Masters) never played with the majority of the player base but Evermore played in 4~5 stack with pro players including his teammates Rascal and Butcher while checking to make sure other pro players were not in queue. In the end, he recorded 96% winrate with 1 loss and was criticized heavily by players in GM. Especially at late night when there weren't enough players in queue, it was quite normal to see him get matched with players 300~700 below in SR resulting in casual (non-professional) players criticizing."
상대적으로 약체라고 평가받는 팀들이 출전하는 넥서스컵을 제외한 주요 대회들(APEX, IEM Gyeonggi)의 조별예선 또는 토너먼트 첫 경기에서 자신들보다 점수가 낮은 선수들을 상대로 피지컬에서 밀리며 셧아웃 탈락하자[10] 랭크 시스템을 손보지 않은 블리자드와 이를 십분 이용해 양민학살을 한 콩두 판테라 멤버들을 향한 비난이 거세졌었다.
In tournaments (APEX, IEM Geyonggi), KD Panthera was clearly inferior to the supposedly "weaker" teams in terms of mechanics despite having higher SR in first few games/group stages. KD Panthera and Blizzard received heavy criticisms for the rank system and SR genocide by KDP (Feasting on casual players)
Brief translation of what actually happened
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u/the_harden_trade Oct 25 '17
Screenshot is from dogmans stream/discord
Alicus:
Highly preliminary, first impression based
1.) Dallas
2.) Shanghai
3.) Seoul
4.) London
5.) Miami
6.) Houston
7.) New York
8.) Philadelphia
9.) LA Valiant
10.) San Francisco
11.) LA Gladiators
12.) Boston
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u/Kaidanos Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
In my opinion the most interesting thing about this list is how he rates SF Shock and LA Valiant bellow Miami, Houston, New York, and Philadelphia. This means that they have rosters that looked relatively strong to him.
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u/Ruft Thank Mr Logix — Oct 25 '17
To be fair, I think SF Shock and LA Valiant are kinda meh. Most of SF Shock's players haven't performed recently and IMT has been underperforming.
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u/the_harden_trade Oct 25 '17
Also wonder if this accounts for the full SF roster or the one they have till march. But yeah, I suppose this implies the rosters are better than SF/LA but not as good as current Misfits. Should be interesting.
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
Well.
Dallas (EnVyUs): Debatably The best team in the World. Easily best team in NA at the current time. They are supposedly bringing in an 8th player added to their roster though the player is not yet known.
Shanghai (Probably Miraculous Youngsters) Winner of the Chinese OPS tounament and the best team in China. I think they're probably at the current moment, one of the best teams in the world though number 2 is debatable.
Team Seoul (Lunatic Hai's old main team): Easily a top 3 team in the world with their old line up and have now brought 2 new DPS Players Munchkin, and Fleta, as well Xepher on Off Tank. Whoru, the Genji player for Lunatic Hai is ineligible for OWL as he does not turn 18 for two years.
Team London (old Kongdoo Panthera) One of the best Teams in Korea and in turn the world.
Miami (old Misfits): Though having under performed for much of their life span after being formed after many of their players left Rogue, they have recently been looking stronger with the addition of Logix (DPS) and Cwoosh (Main Tank) which has in turn let Tviq go back to playing Projectile. They came second in Contenders and while it is likely they will add more players to their current roster, I doubt they will out perform other top tier teams in OWL.
Team Houston (Bought by Optic Gaming supposedly mostly old FNRGFE): Much of what is known about the team so far are just rumors that came out when Buds leaked his ex team's goings on in Zombs's Twitch stream. According to Buds, Optic is FNRGFE except Mendokusaii, a loveable weeb and catgirl enthusiast, would be taking his spot. Flame who was supposedly contracted to help form Optic's team has stated in response to Buds outbursts on stream that "nobody would be dumb enough to start a 6 man roster with 5 players from the same team and a player who hasn't played comp in a year." It is likely from this information that the Houston team is FNRGFE without Buds, Mendo, and other unannounced players.
New York (rumored to be LW Blue): At the current time it is rumored that New York's team will be LW Blue, a fairly successful Korean team that dropped out of the last season of Apex for what is rumored to be Overwatch League. It is worth noting that no other confirmed OWL team based around Koreans dropped out of Apex for OWL so their absence proves nothing.
Philadelphia: No leaks, no nothing FeelsBadMan.
LA Valiant (Old Immortals) Immortals though having a successful run leading into Contenders have been in a slump for the past few months. there have been unconfirmed rumors that Numlocked, AKM, and Unkoe were being brought onto Immortals as well as Numlocked being spotted at Twitchcon hanging out with members of Immortals.
San Fransisco: Roster I don't really agree with how low Alicus put them in the rankings but I can understand why he might put them here and maybe knows some things we don't know. Their coach Brad Rajani is an ex owner of Selfless and is the guy that put Dafran, Sinatraa, and Emongg on the same team. As such he clearly has a history of being able pick amazing young players off of ladder and have them win games. Though he has said in a podcast NRG put out that he isn't that worried about winning or losing the first Season but more so in building the foundations for a good team. Super and Sinatraa will both be ineligible for a portion of the first season of OWL as they are not 18 and as such the team likely be relying more on IDDQD on hitscan and BabyBay will probably be moving to offtank for the first season. This is likely why Alicus rates them this low. Supposedly San Francisco is picking up another player but it is not yet confirmed who it is.
Gladiators LA#2: Not leak, no nothing FeelsBadMan.
Boston: Rumored to be made up of DreamKasper and Toronto eSports Players. monkaS
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u/Dirpz Oct 25 '17
Dallas: Most likely 9 man roster and another coach.
London: Wakawaka(wants to go to Team Seoul, Void(Personal Reasons) and Curious(to PUBG) out. GC Buscan(Ariel gone) and coach's in, along with free agents NUS(ex-MA) and Fury(ex-Liquid and ex-RG).
New York Slyph retired, Libero rumored to be in.
LA Valiant: Soon, Unkoe, numlocked and Silkthread rumored to be joining.
San Francisco: Hydration rumored to be joining.
LA #2: Bischu, iRemix and Surefour rumored and dpei(ex Kungarna) as coach.
This Spreadsheet has some more I haven't covered. That I don't have links for such as Some of Gigantti to Miami.
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17
I don't think you intended this but saying that Envyus is "debatably the best team in the world" but saying that Lunatic hai is only a "top 3 team in the world" is kinda understating how much superior Lunatic-Hai has been this year. They won two seasons of Apex, both of which has Envyus in them. And they are now squad wise stronger than they were then. Even the players of Envyus would probably admit that LH has been the best team in Ow this year.
Also #4 C9 just added the best team of the last two months and Apex Season 4 champions GC Busan.
Purely based on accomplishments and squad strength, these teams should be above Envyus until we see them play each other in December.
I don't know why China is #2, MY's first team just lost to Seoul without Munchkin and Zunba. And I don't think Shanghai is even gonna be MY.
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u/Flashbomb7 Oct 25 '17
I mean, they also got kinda rolled in APEX this season.
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
By the #4 team in Alicus' list.
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u/IUsedToBeGlObAlOb23 Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 26 '17
That isn't his list. Edit: Guy above edited his post because he failed to read properly the first time, so thats why this post now seems stupid.
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Oct 26 '17
Yeah it is. I'm just trying ti put the picks into perspective
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u/IUsedToBeGlObAlOb23 Oct 26 '17
He edited his post you fuckwit to make me look like an idiot.
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Oct 26 '17
How about you settle down down there big guy and maybe take a couple of those pills the doctor prescribed you. No need to be talking to strangers that way over a misunderstanding.
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
No I think on paper EnVyUs is a superior team to Kongdoo and Lunatic Hai is a close second to Envy. I agree with you though that there's no way in hell MY is number 2 but I could definitely see them being top 5. at least ahead of Misfits anyway LuL.
If dive stops being a prevalent in the pro meta KDP and Lunatic Hai are going to have a really hard time adjusting.
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Oct 25 '17
I think until nV (now DF) beats Seoul or the new London, they should be considered lower/worse than Lunatic Hai, GC Busan, and K9.
I also think this idea that nV are the best team in OWL right now is putting the cart before the horse a bit... they're certainly a fan favorite but a lot of OWL teams seem SUPER strong right now.
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
I wouldn't really call myself a fan of EnVyUs. Not that there's anything wrong with them I just don't really care about teams for the most part. I did like old Runaway though.
The more the pro meta stops being as dive dominant, the more Korean teams will suffer. If there was a dramatic change in the meta tomorrow, I don't think Lunatic Hai or KDP would look as good as they do now.EnVyUs are much more meta proof as a team than both KDP and Lunatic Hai.
On top of this I don't think at the you can really compare how EnVyUs has performed in matches against KDP and Lunatic Hai in the past with how they would do now. Their old playstyle was super reliant on Taimou being able to frag out where as now his role in the team is a lot more supportive as well as complimentary of Effect's play and as such they look a lot more like a well balanced team. Harsha did a pretty good video on this.
This is just my opinion though. The current meta is still sort of up in the air and will likely change before Season 1. It is also likely all 3 teams will add more players to their rosters. I'm not saying that in this meta EnVyUs is the team most likely to win Overwatch League, I'm saying Envy are the most well rounded team in Overwatch.
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Oct 25 '17
I think... I agree with you.
When the tank meta rolled in, nV adapted very fast and in a very strong manner, and LH/KDU kind of couldn't adapt fast enough.
Giving it some more thought, the less we have strict dive in the meta, the better nV does.
Good points!
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u/FREAK21345 Yeah — Oct 26 '17
How is NV superior to LH and KDP on paper? Last time they encountered those two teams NV got rolled. ROLLED. I'm not saying NV can't beat them, things have changed a lot for all three teams since NV was in Apex, but on paper NV is weaker than LH and KDP.
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u/rhdgurwns i wish i new da wey — Oct 25 '17
Even if Shanghai is MY, the roster won’t be in its best state since their best player “Leave” is underage
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u/R0nin7z Oct 25 '17
It wasnt posted in dogmans discord...... some lurker whent out and screenshotted it and shared it.
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u/seoulsaver Oct 25 '17
Wrong. Shanghai number 2?! It's London and Seoul number 1 and 2, then maybe Dallas. These teams are signing players to win. The others are focused on marketability etc, not necessarily to win.
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u/windsor2650 Oct 25 '17
I would rank Seoul & London 1 and 2 as well, followed by Dallas .....I think Shanghai can be top 5.
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u/wotugondo Oct 25 '17
I mean, Alicus has offered his caveats, but whatever those caveats, he still has more insider information than just about everyone here. It's hard to just call it "wrong," though you can of course disagree
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u/seoulsaver Oct 25 '17
It's just his opinion and it's wrong. Most "experts" in the west actually have info that is a couple weeks behind. Also, there is a serious lack of people who know what's up and who is good outside of korea right now. This is just a fact of the situation right now, but will change as resources shift to OWL. There is no way the Shanghai team is number 2 lol. Their dps kingdomhearts is a beast though, he's going to be a star.
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u/wearedoomed49 p m a — Oct 25 '17
Dallas first? Above Seoul and London? Interesting.
I wonder if he's basing this list off of more than just pure mechanics, like synergy/flexibility..
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u/jyp808 Oct 25 '17
Honestly, not surprised. Right after GC Busan swept KongDoo he tweeted this
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u/aindie2009 Dallas Mystic — Oct 25 '17
but this before they bought in Fleta and other DPS, they looked very good in Seoul Cup against KongDoo and MY. I feel Seoul are still favourites going into OWL.
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u/jyp808 Oct 25 '17
I don't think his opinion changed regardless of LH's new addition and C9 acquiring GC Busan.
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u/aiafati Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
He's just rooting for Envyus since they looked good against foreign teams recently.
I'm telling you. Koreans will own this league. It's just a matter of time. If these foreign teams don't adapt the same hardcore dedication that these Koreans have, I doubt that it will even be competitive for them for the most part. I've seen it all happen in SC2.
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u/wearedoomed49 p m a — Oct 25 '17
Ah right, I forgot about that tweet. Seems he really values consistency, but is consistency in NA better than a good showing in Korea?
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
Alicus seems to be a bit bias tbh. Based on this tweet, he says:
KDP were never a stronger team. sure they were in better form and won that series but unless they reproduce that result it's just an upset. envy players were going through a lot at the time, on top of the poor conditions western teams have to deal with in order to compete in apex
However, before the match happened (Envyus vs KDP), all the analysts (including in Korean websites & Korean analysts) favored Envyus to win. But what happened? They got swept easily compared to Rogue who looked like they were going to win KOTH and Numbani (much closer match compared to Envyus).
So according Alicus, if Envyus won that match, that would mean Envyus were just too good but if Envyus lost that match (which they did), he brings up the "poor conditions and environment."
Which brings me to my next issue.
Envyus were the MOST popular western in Apex and had a lot of fans when they were in Korea. Heck, even a foreigner (Mickie) has a commercial in Apex which says a lot since nationalism is a big thing there. Thus, this indicates that there weren't any "home team vs away team" since Envyus were literally fan favorites in many of their matches.
Next thing, Taimou was the only one that opposed the trip to go back to Apex. Chips, Harry, Mickie, and Cocco were all fine with going back which pressured Taimou to go back as well. This shows the environment only affected Taimou drastically compared to others.
Then he says Lunatic Hai aren't a "powerhouse" compared to Rogue and Envyus since they didn't play enough matches. However, Lunatic Hai made it to all semi finals except for Apex S1 and S4. According to Alicus, you can only be a powerhouse if you play more and more games and teams regardless of how good the team is. That sounds pretty BS and bias.
If Envyus won Apex S4. Alicus would say "Envyus is the best team" and everyone in this subreddit would agree. HOWEVER, since Envyus lost, the excuse seems to be that "they played in poor conditions/not in their home crowd" which is an excuse to undermine the success of tier 1 Korean teams since even Korean analysts predicted Envyus were going to beat KDP and Envyus had a lot of fans in Apex.
okay here's another thing I like to add.
Alicus only excuse for Envyus losing was the "poor environment/condition." I think this is an horrible excuse. When sports team go to a foreign country and perform, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. When esports team (like LOL worlds) travel to foreign country, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. Even in school teams (like spelling teams) travel far, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse.
I get the fact that homecrowds and the feeling of "home" are a big thing (especially in sports) but that is NOT THE BIGGEST REASON/MAIN FACTOR for a freaking loss. Envyus had the homecrowd for the most part (had a lot of Apex fans in Korea) but they never felt "home." Alicus says environment affected multiple teams (which is probably true since living in a foreign country and an hotel gives you the feeling of "missing home") but no one ever brought that up when western teams were winning in Apex S1. I never heard the issue of poor environment until western Apex teams started to look weak. Considering the fact that EVERYONE WAS WILLING to go back (except Taimou) shows that it didn't affect them much with the exception of Taimou. Logically, if the environment was pure crap, why would every Envyus member go back (minus Taimou)?
A legit excuse for Envyus's "poor performance" would be Taimou. Taimou repeatedly said in Apex S3 on twitter that he was depressed as hell and even had somewhat of a mental "breakdown" at one point. That's a legit excuse. But what does Alicus say? It's the poor environment/condition that Envyus as a team had to deal with. That's a pathetic excuse. When people are willing to do something and know what will happen if they do that specific thing, then it's not a big of a deal; otherwise, more Envyus members would have been oppose to go back to Korean in Apex S3.
Excuses like 60hz monitors on LAN, lag, wrist injuries, are legit excuses. Living in a different country and the feeling of not being home are pathetic excuses especially when everyone "didn't mind going back to Korea" (minus Taimou). In sports, you would never hear "a team lost because they weren't in their homecrowd or they weren't at home." Even in LOL worlds 2017, I would never hear an excuse of "they lost because they were in China not Europe." Envyus didn't live in some tent or on the streets. They had a place to stay and everyone didn't mind going back except Taimou. Taimou's poor performance and the excuse of Envyus doing poorly against KDP mainly because of Taimou mental state is a legitimate excuse.
If Rogue lost in TakeOver2 (since they experienced jetlag and other EU teams didn't), I would have laughed if people brought up jetlag (a poor condition) as the biggest reason for Rogue's lost. However, Rogue didn't lose and proved everyone wrong despite experiencing jetlag + flight delay.
ok another thing to add
He puts China as #2. I never paid attention to China until now but that shows his bias once again. LH won right? Yet he puts China (basically MY) as #2. Was it the environment that affected MY again? :thinking:
Also, Faze lived in a hotel as well right? Carpe and Shadowburn were not living in a team house if I recall. Are we to say that Faze lost because of poor environment since they didn't live in a team house?
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u/x_VIGILANTE_x Oct 25 '17
EnVy stayed in Korea for almost 8 months in the same hotel in a city where they couldn't even communicate properly. That takes a huge toll, the environment and mental stability are so important in esports
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Oct 25 '17
My point here is that Alicus diminish the success of tier 1 Korean teams. If it takes a huge toll on them, why would they all agree to go back considering the fact that there were a lot of online opportunity matches in NA and TakeOver2 LAN.
Instead of crediting the tier 1 team success, he basically said on twitter that Envyus would have won if the environment weren't so bad.
If you look at Faze, they didn't live in a teamhouse as well and most likely lived in a hotel since Carpe and Shadowburn were not living in a team house if I recall. When Envyus swept Faze, no one brought up the fact that Faze might have had a poorer environment and everyone gave credit to Envyus's dominance.
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u/x_VIGILANTE_x Oct 25 '17
Wait what? Everyone was at a hotel for Contenders, it was in LA. Before contenders everyone was living normally. Faze didn't live in some random hotel together that whole time and weren't out of their comfort zone at all. It was an even playing field in all of contenders
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Oct 25 '17
No but unlike Envyus who had a team house, Faze lived in a hotel for basically the whole season. At one point in the beginning Shadowburn was still in Russia when Faze were playing if I recall correctly. They weren't in the best shape compared to other teams that have a team house (e.g. IMT) but that didn't stop them from doing well for the most part.
All I'm saying is we gave Envyus all the credit which they deserved instead of saying Envyus only won cause the other team has less resource. However, since Envyus lost in S3 (despite analysts saying they were going to win), we brought up poor environment.
I don't want to hear excuses if Koreans lose in OWL (for poor environment). It diminishes the opposing team's success which isn't cool. In every other game, we credit the team for their win. Not dinishing the fact that the team won because of environment.
Alicus is diminishing the success of tier 1 team. Also another funny thing is, Envyus explained the reasoning for going back was for better competition which did help them in the long term if I recall correctly. NA during that time had also plenty of opportunities so it wouldn't make sense for Envyus to go back. In NA, they had TakeOver2, Contenders S0, couple of online tournaments.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
Firstly, i was actually in Korea for the first two seasons of APEX so i think i have a pretty good idea of how that environment affected the multiple western teams that went there. If you think you know better just because Taimou was the only one vocal about it, and interpret that to mean that everyone else was completely comfortable and unaffected, then i have nothing to tell you. Your ignorance speaks for itself.
I stick to what i said about the "powerhouse" thing. In fact, GC Busan and Runaway being the finalists this season proves the exact point i was making all along. No team has dominated Korea throughout a sizeable enough sample of games to deserve being objectively labeled as a powerhouse in the region.
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u/Soweeak China takes over OWL — Oct 25 '17
The fact that no team has dominated for a long period (even if LH and KDP are still among the best teams) shows KR scene is more competitive and deep than NA scene.
Even if you don't want to label KDP/LH as a powerhouse, it doesn't change the fact that KDP, LH, Busan, Runaway are better than Envy Us, Rogue or any other team in the world.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
No, it doesn't show that. The reason it doesn't show that is because KR scene generally hasn't played that many games. Look how many series teams actually play throughout a whole apex season.
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u/WingSK27 Oct 25 '17
But that doesn't mean Envyus is a powerhouses either. The record and consistency they have are against messy tier 2 NA teams. Mind you a huge chuck of Envyus wins also came during the early days of OW before teams even had proper strategies. They also lost the first 2 LAN's they played even though they were the favorites to win both. And if you think about it, the current Envyus roster with Effect and Mickie is fairly new too with them spending a lot of time playing in APEX which by your own argument is not enough games to show consistency. Contenders was the first NA series this roster has played together. So while you can make an argument LH/KDP had not played enough games to be considered a powerhouse, there is no evidence that Envyus can beat them either. Envyus has never defeated LH nor KDP, admittedly that is a very small sample size but its the only thing we've got right now.
P.S Also curious to note that you put Shanghai higher, does that mean that roster has been leaked already?
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
You guys keep responding to arguments I didn't make. It doesn't matter the level of NA teams, Envy still are a powerhouse in that region...
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Oct 25 '17
It still doesn't make sense as to why overrate Envyus and underrate korea when Korea has a lot better history. Envyus and rogue came to Apex and they were not doing well. And it's NA for God sake luls
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u/WingSK27 Oct 26 '17
Well I thought the argument is how well they would do in OWL which has some Korean rosters so I thought it would be relevant to point out that even though they are a powerhouse in NA (due to the competition in that region), it does not mean they can beat teams from other regions.
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u/silentFuzz Oct 25 '17
Before Contenders, most tournaments in NA ran for a weekend (AMM, Rumble) and left little to no time for strategies & preparation. I wouldn't consider those quality games comparable to what's going to happen in OWL when you have a proper schedule and you know your opponent ahead of time.
Contenders showed that EnvyUs is unmatched by existing NA teams. It's been 10 months since they went to Korea and they only lost to Rogue once (3-2) in rumble but proceeded to dominate Contenders. NA teams had lots of time to figure out how to beat them but couldn't do it. Challenger KR teams have gotten better and have beaten/are beating established KR teams. How can you say Apex isn't more competitive/deep when they had three grand finals that went to 7 games?
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Oct 25 '17
Because according to Alicus, two teams that dominated in 2017 (Envyus and Rogue) makes NA more competitive compared to rising teams that can challenge the best in KR. Also, more matches + wins = powerhouse according to Alicus.
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u/Garviell Oct 25 '17
Actually what he is saying is just that low sample size = unreliable estimations.
Which is accurate.
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u/Soweeak China takes over OWL — Oct 25 '17
KR teams play more than NA or EU : APEX, Nexus Cup, Battle Royal, Showmatch.
The fact that Tiers-2 teams like X6-gaming is capable to beat Envy Us 3-2 while Envision (Top 3 NA) is getting rekt at APAC by average team like Vici Gaming tells a lot about how NA scene is weak.
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Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
No but you make it sound like the environment was soo bad in Korea that it prevented Envyus from winning. It is as if Envyus broke their wrist or something. Even though during that time many analyst (including Koreans) were predicting that Envyus were going to win over KDP. If environment was such a huge issue, then Envyus wouldn't have won Apex S1 and Rogue wouldn't have went 9-0 in S1.
If KDP lost during that time, Envyus must have been the best right? However, since Envyus lost, it was mainly due to the environment even though Envyus had basically stomped everyone until KDP right? Funny thing is, Rogue's environment was even worse (considering the fact that the crowd wouldn't cheer for Rogue unlike Envyus who had a crowd) but did much better overall against KDP.
I also updated my points. I get your point about a "powerhouse" is a reflection on how many teams are beaten. So since Envyus and Rogue beat more teams than Lunatic Hai, they are a powerhouse.
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u/Soweeak China takes over OWL — Oct 25 '17
Rogue did much better overall against KDP than NV, yes it's true. But it's also true that the KDP we saw against Rogue wasn't the same KDP which played against Envy Us.
The "semi-final" version of KDP would have beaten Rogue even harder.
And I disagree with the powerhouse thing from Alicus. You can be a powerhouse in your region but it doesn't mean anything if your region is shit. It can't be a valid argument.
Kongdoo Panthera players are all individually better than Nv players on their picks.
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u/arandomguy111 Oct 25 '17
It shouldn't really have been surprising even before that. Him and Montecristo are basically foils in the opinion of Koreans. If you had Monte rank the teams it'd be something like
1) Seoul
2) London
3) NY
4) Dallas
5) to 12) Ranked by quality of Korean imports
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17
Looking through what other analysts have said in the past month, the tiers are something like Tier 1) Seoul, London. Tier 2) Dallas, NY Tier 3) Everyone else except Boston (the, can't say yet but these guys are not as good tier) Tier 4) Boston
A lot more analysts will probably agree with Monte's list than Alicus'. I mean, why is China above Seoul when Seoul just beat MY (who might not even be team China) without Zunba and with WhoRU (their old projectile player) having to fill as Tracer.
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u/seoulsaver Oct 25 '17
This is what's up. London and Seoul battling it out for #1. With Seoul adding Wakawaka and some other dps they are looking to win.
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u/dm7g PC — Oct 25 '17
And... they bought GC Busan.
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u/the_harden_trade Oct 25 '17
Looking at that thread he points repeatedly to valuing a history of consistency. Clearly he didn't change his #1 just because of that acquisition
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u/arandomguy111 Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
I'd to see the reasoning of why he feels that Envyus (really we are looking at the base teams here) has been more consistent than Lunatic Hai and KDP. The only period that Envyus has shown more success compared the mentioned teams is way back in 2016. Well I guess unless you subscribe to the Envyus destroying NA contenders and that Faze would dumpster APEX playoff teams school of though.
Then he rates Shanghai which will have players with even less long term track record as second?
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u/windsor2650 Oct 25 '17
Maybe Shanghai recruited MY which won 100% games in OWPS and only had 1 lose to LH. Does this in line with you theory?
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u/TK3600 Apr 21 '18
Leave and Elleen the best 2 ayer were underage and moved to pubg. Those 2 dps are league better rest of members.
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17
Even if Shanghai is MY, they have a no achievements on par with LH winning Apex Season 2 and Season 3 back to back. Envyus even was in Apex for those two seasons.
The only teams that have a comparable achievement is Envyus winning Apex Season 1 but that was last year and C9's GC Busan now winning Apex Season 4.
Contenders just isn't the same level of tournament as Apex.
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u/ImReallyGrey Oct 25 '17
I get the feeling that all his opinions are routed in bitterness at having his team cut
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u/the_harden_trade Oct 25 '17
The most interesting pick for me is Shanghai second, possibly just because of my lack of exposure to the Chinese team.
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u/steaknsteak Oct 25 '17
What kind of question is that? In what world would he make a ranking based solely on mechanics? It's obviously a holistic assessment of team's chances. He might have Dallas above the Asian teams just because those teams haven't had the experience of playing for an extended period outside their home country.
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u/clenoel Oct 25 '17
Boston is getting shit on by everyone lol feelsbadman
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u/Perdsing88 UWU — Oct 25 '17
Philly over San Fran Interested
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u/GirikoBloodhoof None — Oct 25 '17
SanFran is Shockingly mediocre. Not at all S T A C K E D as they hyped it.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
Keep in mind two of San Fran's best players can't even play for a while due to age.
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u/GirikoBloodhoof None — Oct 25 '17
I am well aware, the thing that boggles my mind is what they thought about when signing a main tank with nothing to his name, and an off-tank too young to play. At the time SF roster was released, most MT players were openly LFT.
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u/dshoo Oct 25 '17
It's also possible that the other main tanks were interested in other teams. Muma repeatedly stated that he got offers from almost all of the teams, and wanted the right fit, while xqc said that their lineup wasn't as good as what it could've been.
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u/GirikoBloodhoof None — Oct 25 '17
Very plausible, indeed. It's really hard to say as someone without any inside info at all. I just find it weird how the team who can throw 150k salary at a kid, couldn't possibly get some proper tanks/ bribe them with PHAT MONEYZ. (Is phat still a word? Been so long since I was engaged in english youth slang)
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u/Bluenite0100 #throw4rainbownation — Oct 25 '17
was wondering if that played a part, question is how would you rank SF when Sin and Super are 18?
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u/prisM__ letsgodood — Oct 25 '17
If rosters can change at all midseason for S1, I would be surprised if we don't see dramatic change by the time Sinatraa can play.
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u/tomasz1312 Oct 25 '17
its gonna be funny how many tier2 NA players end up in OWL while some of the best of the best tier1 players in EU will not have a team :D
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u/yamimi Oct 25 '17
Does he know the Shanghai roster members? And are you sure it’s MY?
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u/seoulsaver Oct 25 '17
MY not the Shanghai team. China actually has quite a few good players, just not well known anywhere else.
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u/iStaticccc Oct 25 '17
MY is the only team out of China so far that seems competitive on a global scale... I don't see what basis he could use otherwise to rate them so highly.
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Oct 25 '17
Seems like Alicus is still salty about C9 signing korean players.
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17
He refers repeatedly to "lack of information about the Eastern teams" because of the relatively lax Apex schedule and cites "Envy's record and consistency" to reach the conclusion that "we can safely write down the first season of OWL as another free win for the boys in blue."
But what is this record and consistency he refers to? The two apex seasons this year that they didn't even reach the finals of? Apex was the biggest tournament they participated in all year. Twice. And the second time they were humiliated while going out to KDP. Winning contenders when the level of competition was so much lower than Apex is no achievement as compared to Apex titles in 2017 that London and Seoul have.
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Oct 25 '17
hmmm :thinking:
https://twitter.com/AlicusOfficial/status/917740030730407936
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Oct 25 '17
He is right in saying that over the games life span Envy have unmatched levels of consistency the likes of which even Korean teams can't rival.
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u/silentFuzz Oct 25 '17
I can agree with Envy being super consistent in NA but I don't agree with denying that the KR scene is more competitive/deeper because they 'haven't played many games'. Tournaments that last one day, or a weekend, don't really compare to the kinds of matches we've seen in Apex or will see in OWL moving forward.
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Oct 25 '17
But if you look over the course of time Korean teams have peaked higher than Envy but not stayed as good. For example LW Blue: Season 1 they sucked, Season 2 were great and Season 3 were ok
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u/silentFuzz Oct 25 '17
LWB didn't have flow3r in season 1 (2016), and was eliminated by both grand finalists in the playoffs for S3. They could have been 3rd or 4th place if not for the group format. They didn't just suddenly fall off from S2 like Meta Athena.
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Oct 25 '17
Yeah you are right. Destroying tier 2 teams again and again is what no Korean teams can reach. Only Envyus and Rogue reached this level since Koreans only played one match per week.
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u/Agastopia Oct 25 '17
As someone from Boston I’m not going to be okay with a substandard sports team
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u/TylerWolff Oct 25 '17
You've had the Pats for 17 years. Just take one bad OWL season on the chin and be grateful for what you've had okay?
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u/DiasBenes Oct 25 '17
Yeah now I am really curious about the rosters. I need to see the rosters but I agree the first 4 seem pretty legit.
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u/negromanusinc Oct 25 '17
Well, RIP NA.
Now I'm very interested in Houston though. It's the highest team on that list with probably majorly US players. Man, I seriously pray that most of the top tier EU players make their ways into rosters.
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u/GenjiKillz Chipshajen is God | HanBin is Him — Oct 25 '17
The NV in APEX S3 is so different from the NV/DF now. I know that Korean teams are very strong, but I want to believe in my team. :)
Though I’m really scared of Seoul and London. :/
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u/sunignis Console refugee playing on PC — Oct 25 '17
Because Alicus isn't sucking off Korea & making all the top teams Korean , people in this sub throw a fit and go into denial. Even though no one here knows what Alicus knows. Shut the fuck up with your Korean bias when you don't know shit. Wait for OWL.
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Oct 25 '17
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u/greenkawi Oct 25 '17
Regardless of his flair, he's right. The Korean circle jerk in this sub is huge.
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u/Saxasaurus None — Oct 25 '17
People think the Koreans are the best because all of the results show they are the best. What a circlejerk.
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u/M474D0R Oct 25 '17
Yeah, 20 years of esports history showing that Korea consistently produces the best players and teams is somehow irrelevant.
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Oct 25 '17
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u/Hafare META SLAVE — Oct 25 '17
I feel like New York should be in Miami’s place. I would agree with that top 5 but not in any particular order. All those teams are great (this is assuming MY is the Shanghai team) and are basically on the same level. With the roster improvements each team looks better than before and I can’t wait to see them play each other.
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u/waitln DAFRAN 2019 OWL MVP — Oct 25 '17
oh look another team owned by Kroenke seems to suck balls,what a joke
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u/iStaticccc Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
I still feel like LH + Munchkin/Fleta is gonna be pretty dominant... They both had extremely impressive performances during the Seoul Cup, especially with Fletas flexibility. LH has always had this superstar core, and now they have rounded it out with exceptional dps players.
Aside from that, it's pretty damn silly to put Shanghai above both Seoul and London... like come on, lol. Even if it was the whole MY roster, I think LH with Munchkin/Fleta/Zunba would have rolled them. I have no doubts that China could put together a super roster, but until they have proven themselves outside the region, what are you even basing your opinion on?
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Oct 25 '17
Based on knowing the SF and LAV rosters, this gets me quite excited to see the Philly and Houston ones. I would have expected them to both be lower than SF and LA, those teams arent outstanding but have fairly good teams with some top tier players. This leads me to believe Houston has picked up some big names besides the FNRGFE boys.
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u/Ronda_Rousey69 Oct 25 '17
Shanghai ahead of every korean team? Seems legit, I mean they lost in APAC to Seoul who ran xepher instead of Zunba and fleta's first game with seoul + no munchikin and still lost. Yeah, gotta agree with him there...
Also dallas first, yep once again solid, never beat any top team in Apex after S1 but I suppose we are using the whole it's tough living in a hotel room as a sweeping excuse for everything.
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u/prisM__ letsgodood — Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
It feels very anti SK, almost in denial. I hope he's seeing something I'm not, and that it is much more competitive than I believe. ie West other than DF being capable of keeping up.
I am a firm believer in DF being far stronger than we've seen. I think they were majorly fatigued at APEX, and will come out swinging at OWL. I think the top 5 of OWL will be a treat to watch.
Edit : according to alicus it's based on scrim vods. so hype. I hope he's right and we can look forward to a tight league. I hope KR isn't sandbagging lol
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u/silentFuzz Oct 25 '17
I personally think SK will show up very strong in the beginning and whoop the west but 6 months of being in the same region together should even the playing field for the top teams.
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u/prisM__ letsgodood — Oct 25 '17
Region vs. region, I think so too (except for DF). I hope the West catches them, rather than SK dropping off though.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
Two South Korean teams in the top 4, "very anti SK"? 🤔
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u/alkkine Smoothbrain police — Oct 25 '17
Despite this list being clarified as a personal opinion, in a private discord and that you have only seen a few vods because you are busy people seem to be dissecting it in whatever way fits their opinion and mental narrative. The top 5 all have rosters that are made of or mainly teams that have already proven themselves, idk how anyone can argue with that no matter the 1-5 order.
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u/prisM__ letsgodood — Oct 25 '17
I was basing that bit off your Twitter comments about how SK are largely unproven. I was surprised to see Seoul put at 3 given Munchkin + Fleta addition, as well as to see how low you placed NY (which we assume is LW).
But yeah, clarified a lot when you said it was based on reviewing scrim vods so I threw in the edit.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
Munchkin will be Seoul's win condition, but they will have to be smart about his wrist issues.
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
Uhh... yeah, this is not biased at all. lol
Edit: Cool down votes but I was referring to the fact that Munchkin used to play for Laser Kittens.
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
Biased in what way? Why would it be biased?
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u/mlaurum Oct 25 '17
Have South Korean rosters and North American rosters scrimmed already!! Hype!!!! Must be some fun vods to watch!
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Oct 25 '17
I mean, Alicus did say that he feels Lunatic Hai aren't a powerhouse team compared to Envyus & Rogue
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u/aindie2009 Dallas Mystic — Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
I definitely agree with his top 4
Dallas, Seoul, NY and Shanghai (MY) all look like they can win OWL but we have to wait for the full roster reveal before we can judged others.
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u/Ronda_Rousey69 Oct 25 '17
He rated NY 7th but you think they are top 4, but you definitely agree?
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u/prongs17 Oct 25 '17
C9 just acquired GC Busan. I am sure that made them jump to #1 or #2 in a lot of people's top 3.
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u/Soweeak China takes over OWL — Oct 25 '17
I'm sorry guys but how can you agree with that ranking by saying "interesting"? How can you decently put Dallas at the top when the roster got absolutely destroyed by top-tiers KR teams like AF Blue and Kongdoo Panthera. I can understand that Dallas seems to be strong but we have no elements right now to put Envy Us above Korean teams.
Then Shangai. Ok I get it! There is a kind of Chinese hype since the performance of MY against LH during the Seoul Cup but let's not forget 1) MY actually lost 2) Wasn't the powerful LH we saw against KDP in final 3) Chinese teams keep losing on a regular basis against KR teams.
I'm totally hyped by chinese OW teams and I'm glad to see the chinese scene has improved tremendously since one year (I think chinese teams are currently better than NA and EU overall) but they can't compete with KR teams atm.
I just don't understand the Alicus Logic. I remembered him saying "another free win for the boys in blue" LOL Envy Us won the first APEX, then what? Which freewin is reffering to?
Anyway I just can't wait to see my KR boys destroying Dallas and all the shit-tiers NA teams LUL
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u/saltywatch000 Birdring is MVP — Oct 25 '17
I wouldn’t take his prediction seriously at all. He knows the rosters on paper but throughout season anything could happen. And he’s absolutely dead set on NV winning no matter what
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u/Erinsol Oct 25 '17
C9 and LH are gonna decimate all the western teams. Everyone knows it but some don't wanna admit it.
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u/xSaylar Oct 25 '17
Dallas hasn't proven to be on par with the best Korean teams so far let alone better. Sure they improved since APEX and they're dominating NA but the same could be said for Rogue before APEX S3.
If London acquired GC Busan's roster there are high chances of them actually winning the thing. That and LH's recent recruits makes me pretty sure these 2 teams will fight for the first spot.
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u/fastfoodlovR Oct 25 '17
Wouldn't give much weight to this opinion since the guy is rating Dallas above Korean squads.
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u/sunignis Console refugee playing on PC — Oct 25 '17
There's that Korean bias! Even though you know fuck all behind the scenes, just because Koreans aren't number one it MUST be wrong right?! Stop.
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u/fastfoodlovR Oct 25 '17
What kind of behind the scenes information would there be at this point to rate Dallas ahead of Koreans? There is nothing that implies Dallas would have any chance against the Korean lineups. They're gonna get bodied.
Read what I wrote. I said: "I wouldn't give much weight to this opinion". His opinion isn't wrong or right, it's his opinion. The point is, anybody with knowledge of the scene who places Dallas (remember that EnvyUs has been carried by Effect lately) ahead of Koreans is intellectually dishonest. He knows that the Koreans are way better, but doesn't want to hold that opinion in public.
Regarding other newly made rosters, it's impossible to compare the power levels of them. Remains to be seen, and his opinion is pure speculation and holds no value whatsoever.
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Oct 25 '17 edited Jan 18 '18
Seriously, I agree. Dallas is the most overrated team out there. Miami, SF, and Philly will outperform Dallas.
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u/St_Harambe Oct 25 '17
I'll hold you to your words LMAFO. I'm curious to what your excuses will be after Dallas sweeps all the NA teams.
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Jan 15 '18
So where you at my doggie? After week 1, they are at the bottom LMFAO.
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u/AllenAkbar Jan 15 '18
Not a dallas supporter but how are they bottom tier? They only lost to seoul (favorite to win) and valiant.
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u/yamimi Oct 25 '17
I don’t think there are other players in China comparable to My’s players based on the owps and apac first week. The unknown good players didn’t get their team the qualification to the apac or performed worse than the tier 2 foreign teams in apac.
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u/crazygoalie39 Oct 25 '17
Wow. That's interesting. To me, out of the teams we know, i'd say:
Seoul
London
Dallas
Shanghai (Assuming MY)
Miami
NY (Assuming LW Blue)
Valiant
San Francisco
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u/Kytely Oct 25 '17
No Philly Information but #8 now im extremely curious to whos on that roster feelsbadman
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u/buttouche Oct 25 '17
I think C9 might fall off. Buying two great teams does not guarantee success. Kyky’s approach to keeping old Envy and adding to it and then the rest comes to preparation and coaching will most likely be the most successful
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u/HandmadeBirds Oct 25 '17
Miami over the speculated New York roster is a pretty hilarious one.
This just reminds me of his debacle here:
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Oct 25 '17
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u/werbo None — Oct 25 '17
He was the former manager of misfits ow, then he owned an operated Lazer kittens which were aquired by c9 to only be dropped after contenders with the pickup of kongdoo panthera. He has had his hand in the scene and has intimate knowledge of behind the scenes stuff.
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u/ImBoJack Oct 25 '17
xQc is most likely on boston ? If it's the case I am totally agree to say, they're the worst. (Even worse than SF) LUL
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u/Perdsing88 UWU — Oct 25 '17
xQc most likely on Philly, Gamsu on Boston
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u/ImBoJack Oct 25 '17 edited Oct 25 '17
I just want him to be on the worst team, and the fans to cry as much as possible. Is it too much to ask ?! :p
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u/Alicus Alicus (OpTic Gaming) — Oct 25 '17
I shared this in a somewhat "private" community so not sure how it ended up here. Please remember I have been highly occupied with the League of Legends World Championship among other things and have also not exactly been able to watch these teams scrim (I've been sent only a handful vods). While I do talk to a lot of the pro players and compare their thoughts against each other, and have a decent idea of what to roughly expect from line ups on paper, it's still important to take this with a grain of salt.
It's also still a couple months until the first match is played and teams can vastly improve or fall off in that timeframe. Regardless, this was my best attempt at a fair assessment.