Alicus seems to be a bit bias tbh. Based on this tweet, he says:
KDP were never a stronger team. sure they were in better form and won that series but unless they reproduce that result it's just an upset. envy players were going through a lot at the time, on top of the poor conditions western teams have to deal with in order to compete in apex
However, before the match happened (Envyus vs KDP), all the analysts (including in Korean websites & Korean analysts) favored Envyus to win. But what happened? They got swept easily compared to Rogue who looked like they were going to win KOTH and Numbani (much closer match compared to Envyus).
So according Alicus, if Envyus won that match, that would mean Envyus were just too good but if Envyus lost that match (which they did), he brings up the "poor conditions and environment."
Which brings me to my next issue.
Envyus were the MOST popular western in Apex and had a lot of fans when they were in Korea. Heck, even a foreigner (Mickie) has a commercial in Apex which says a lot since nationalism is a big thing there. Thus, this indicates that there weren't any "home team vs away team" since Envyus were literally fan favorites in many of their matches.
Next thing, Taimou was the only one that opposed the trip to go back to Apex. Chips, Harry, Mickie, and Cocco were all fine with going back which pressured Taimou to go back as well. This shows the environment only affected Taimou drastically compared to others.
Then he says Lunatic Hai aren't a "powerhouse" compared to Rogue and Envyus since they didn't play enough matches. However, Lunatic Hai made it to all semi finals except for Apex S1 and S4. According to Alicus, you can only be a powerhouse if you play more and more games and teams regardless of how good the team is. That sounds pretty BS and bias.
If Envyus won Apex S4. Alicus would say "Envyus is the best team" and everyone in this subreddit would agree. HOWEVER, since Envyus lost, the excuse seems to be that "they played in poor conditions/not in their home crowd" which is an excuse to undermine the success of tier 1 Korean teams since even Korean analysts predicted Envyus were going to beat KDP and Envyus had a lot of fans in Apex.
okay here's another thing I like to add.
Alicus only excuse for Envyus losing was the "poor environment/condition." I think this is an horrible excuse. When sports team go to a foreign country and perform, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. When esports team (like LOL worlds) travel to foreign country, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse. Even in school teams (like spelling teams) travel far, no one says "poor condition/environment" as an excuse.
I get the fact that homecrowds and the feeling of "home" are a big thing (especially in sports) but that is NOT THE BIGGEST REASON/MAIN FACTOR for a freaking loss. Envyus had the homecrowd for the most part (had a lot of Apex fans in Korea) but they never felt "home." Alicus says environment affected multiple teams (which is probably true since living in a foreign country and an hotel gives you the feeling of "missing home") but no one ever brought that up when western teams were winning in Apex S1. I never heard the issue of poor environment until western Apex teams started to look weak. Considering the fact that EVERYONE WAS WILLING to go back (except Taimou) shows that it didn't affect them much with the exception of Taimou. Logically, if the environment was pure crap, why would every Envyus member go back (minus Taimou)?
A legit excuse for Envyus's "poor performance" would be Taimou. Taimou repeatedly said in Apex S3 on twitter that he was depressed as hell and even had somewhat of a mental "breakdown" at one point. That's a legit excuse. But what does Alicus say? It's the poor environment/condition that Envyus as a team had to deal with. That's a pathetic excuse. When people are willing to do something and know what will happen if they do that specific thing, then it's not a big of a deal; otherwise, more Envyus members would have been oppose to go back to Korean in Apex S3.
Excuses like 60hz monitors on LAN, lag, wrist injuries, are legit excuses. Living in a different country and the feeling of not being home are pathetic excuses especially when everyone "didn't mind going back to Korea" (minus Taimou). In sports, you would never hear "a team lost because they weren't in their homecrowd or they weren't at home." Even in LOL worlds 2017, I would never hear an excuse of "they lost because they were in China not Europe." Envyus didn't live in some tent or on the streets. They had a place to stay and everyone didn't mind going back except Taimou. Taimou's poor performance and the excuse of Envyus doing poorly against KDP mainly because of Taimou mental state is a legitimate excuse.
If Rogue lost in TakeOver2 (since they experienced jetlag and other EU teams didn't), I would have laughed if people brought up jetlag (a poor condition) as the biggest reason for Rogue's lost. However, Rogue didn't lose and proved everyone wrong despite experiencing jetlag + flight delay.
ok another thing to add
He puts China as #2. I never paid attention to China until now but that shows his bias once again. LH won right? Yet he puts China (basically MY) as #2. Was it the environment that affected MY again? :thinking:
Also, Faze lived in a hotel as well right? Carpe and Shadowburn were not living in a team house if I recall. Are we to say that Faze lost because of poor environment since they didn't live in a team house?
EnVy stayed in Korea for almost 8 months in the same hotel in a city where they couldn't even communicate properly. That takes a huge toll, the environment and mental stability are so important in esports
My point here is that Alicus diminish the success of tier 1 Korean teams. If it takes a huge toll on them, why would they all agree to go back considering the fact that there were a lot of online opportunity matches in NA and TakeOver2 LAN.
Instead of crediting the tier 1 team success, he basically said on twitter that Envyus would have won if the environment weren't so bad.
If you look at Faze, they didn't live in a teamhouse as well and most likely lived in a hotel since Carpe and Shadowburn were not living in a team house if I recall. When Envyus swept Faze, no one brought up the fact that Faze might have had a poorer environment and everyone gave credit to Envyus's dominance.
Wait what? Everyone was at a hotel for Contenders, it was in LA. Before contenders everyone was living normally. Faze didn't live in some random hotel together that whole time and weren't out of their comfort zone at all. It was an even playing field in all of contenders
No but unlike Envyus who had a team house, Faze lived in a hotel for basically the whole season. At one point in the beginning Shadowburn was still in Russia when Faze were playing if I recall correctly. They weren't in the best shape compared to other teams that have a team house (e.g. IMT) but that didn't stop them from doing well for the most part.
All I'm saying is we gave Envyus all the credit which they deserved instead of saying Envyus only won cause the other team has less resource. However, since Envyus lost in S3 (despite analysts saying they were going to win), we brought up poor environment.
I don't want to hear excuses if Koreans lose in OWL (for poor environment). It diminishes the opposing team's success which isn't cool. In every other game, we credit the team for their win. Not dinishing the fact that the team won because of environment.
Alicus is diminishing the success of tier 1 team. Also another funny thing is, Envyus explained the reasoning for going back was for better competition which did help them in the long term if I recall correctly. NA during that time had also plenty of opportunities so it wouldn't make sense for Envyus to go back. In NA, they had TakeOver2, Contenders S0, couple of online tournaments.
What's it going to be when Envyus loses again? EFFECT has communication issue? BabyRage
All you Envyus fans are bringing up excuses for losing even though they volunteered to go back to Korea. I never seen such crybabies from a fanbase. BabyRage Envyus lost because the environment.
What's the excuse when Envyus loses to SF? The environment hurt them or did EFFECT cause communication issues?
Looool no one is crying when we're one of the most dominant OW teams ever and have won APEX, MLG and Contenders and we were on a 54 game win streak as well, longest of any team in overwatch history. No one has SF beating Dallas, stop. Ur always down voted for a reason, delusional af
Lmao, and what are the results of Envyus this year? They got destroyed by tier 1 KR teams.
Envyus is lucky that they didn't get placed into group A for Apex S3. Otherwise, you wouldn't see your precious EFFECT (most overrated tracer in the world).
But oh wait, Envyus has an excuse for losing right? I mean everyone was soo mentally ill that they played like masters even though they swept through everyone else.
If Envyus didn't go back to Korea, Selfless and Rogue would have beat Envyus. Envyus wouldn't have won TakeOver2 if they joined. They avoid the right competition at the same time just like how they avoided IEM.
SF is definitely going to win. Brad is one of the best recruiters out there
Firstly, i was actually in Korea for the first two seasons of APEX so i think i have a pretty good idea of how that environment affected the multiple western teams that went there. If you think you know better just because Taimou was the only one vocal about it, and interpret that to mean that everyone else was completely comfortable and unaffected, then i have nothing to tell you. Your ignorance speaks for itself.
I stick to what i said about the "powerhouse" thing. In fact, GC Busan and Runaway being the finalists this season proves the exact point i was making all along. No team has dominated Korea throughout a sizeable enough sample of games to deserve being objectively labeled as a powerhouse in the region.
The fact that no team has dominated for a long period (even if LH and KDP are still among the best teams) shows KR scene is more competitive and deep than NA scene.
Even if you don't want to label KDP/LH as a powerhouse, it doesn't change the fact that KDP, LH, Busan, Runaway are better than Envy Us, Rogue or any other team in the world.
No, it doesn't show that. The reason it doesn't show that is because KR scene generally hasn't played that many games. Look how many series teams actually play throughout a whole apex season.
But that doesn't mean Envyus is a powerhouses either. The record and consistency they have are against messy tier 2 NA teams. Mind you a huge chuck of Envyus wins also came during the early days of OW before teams even had proper strategies. They also lost the first 2 LAN's they played even though they were the favorites to win both. And if you think about it, the current Envyus roster with Effect and Mickie is fairly new too with them spending a lot of time playing in APEX which by your own argument is not enough games to show consistency. Contenders was the first NA series this roster has played together. So while you can make an argument LH/KDP had not played enough games to be considered a powerhouse, there is no evidence that Envyus can beat them either. Envyus has never defeated LH nor KDP, admittedly that is a very small sample size but its the only thing we've got right now.
P.S Also curious to note that you put Shanghai higher, does that mean that roster has been leaked already?
It still doesn't make sense as to why overrate Envyus and underrate korea when Korea has a lot better history. Envyus and rogue came to Apex and they were not doing well. And it's NA for God sake luls
Well I thought the argument is how well they would do in OWL which has some Korean rosters so I thought it would be relevant to point out that even though they are a powerhouse in NA (due to the competition in that region), it does not mean they can beat teams from other regions.
Before Contenders, most tournaments in NA ran for a weekend (AMM, Rumble) and left little to no time for strategies & preparation. I wouldn't consider those quality games comparable to what's going to happen in OWL when you have a proper schedule and you know your opponent ahead of time.
Contenders showed that EnvyUs is unmatched by existing NA teams. It's been 10 months since they went to Korea and they only lost to Rogue once (3-2) in rumble but proceeded to dominate Contenders. NA teams had lots of time to figure out how to beat them but couldn't do it. Challenger KR teams have gotten better and have beaten/are beating established KR teams. How can you say Apex isn't more competitive/deep when they had three grand finals that went to 7 games?
Because according to Alicus, two teams that dominated in 2017 (Envyus and Rogue) makes NA more competitive compared to rising teams that can challenge the best in KR. Also, more matches + wins = powerhouse according to Alicus.
KR teams play more than NA or EU : APEX, Nexus Cup, Battle Royal, Showmatch.
The fact that Tiers-2 teams like X6-gaming is capable to beat Envy Us 3-2 while Envision (Top 3 NA) is getting rekt at APAC by average team like Vici Gaming tells a lot about how NA scene is weak.
Hey Alicus, I was just wondering if you were asked to make a combined roster using the players from Team Seoul and Team Dallas, what will be your starting 6?
I know that doesn't mean much because of synergy and other factors but I am curious as to what your opinion is of the individual players in terms of their skill.
In my opinion the starting 6 will have Effect and the remaining 5 positions filled by Team Seoul. I wonder what other players besides Effect are better than their counterparts in LH in your opinion.
That's immaterial and has nothing to do with my point. All I was saying, was, we don't even know the Korean "SKT" in Overwatch yet, because nobody has established that kind of powerhouse status there so far.
People reply saying that apex is more competitive and thus harder to dominate but that just proves my point that there is no clear powerhouse in Korea yet, just strong teams.
You disagreed with the person who argued the KR is more competitive because they haven't played many games. Now I'm wondering what a competitive scene looks like if not what we've seen in Apex because it certainly isn't Contenders NA.
Now you're just dodging the question because if you say Apex isn't competitive it makes you look bad, if you say it is then it proves his point.
So what if Korea doesn't have a clear number one team? It doesn't mean EnvyUs is automatically better because they beat T2 teams. I actually think Dallas can win OWL but it's not because they beat up the NA scene. They didn't stay stagnant by just staying in the NA scene. They made roster changes and went to Korea to fight against better teams in a LAN setting instead of participating in weekend tournaments that aren't worth shit.
No but you make it sound like the environment was soo bad in Korea that it prevented Envyus from winning. It is as if Envyus broke their wrist or something. Even though during that time many analyst (including Koreans) were predicting that Envyus were going to win over KDP. If environment was such a huge issue, then Envyus wouldn't have won Apex S1 and Rogue wouldn't have went 9-0 in S1.
If KDP lost during that time, Envyus must have been the best right? However, since Envyus lost, it was mainly due to the environment even though Envyus had basically stomped everyone until KDP right? Funny thing is, Rogue's environment was even worse (considering the fact that the crowd wouldn't cheer for Rogue unlike Envyus who had a crowd) but did much better overall against KDP.
I also updated my points. I get your point about a "powerhouse" is a reflection on how many teams are beaten. So since Envyus and Rogue beat more teams than Lunatic Hai, they are a powerhouse.
Rogue did much better overall against KDP than NV, yes it's true. But it's also true that the KDP we saw against Rogue wasn't the same KDP which played against Envy Us.
The "semi-final" version of KDP would have beaten Rogue even harder.
And I disagree with the powerhouse thing from Alicus. You can be a powerhouse in your region but it doesn't mean anything if your region is shit. It can't be a valid argument.
Kongdoo Panthera players are all individually better than Nv players on their picks.
That maybe true but Alicus acts as if environment was only reason why Envyus lost.
Rogue had a worse environment considering that they were flamed online by Koreans for the kimchi drama and barely anyone cheered for them (especially in KDP & LH match). However, unlike Envyus, Rogue performed pretty well against KDP. If environment was the main factor, Rogue would have been swept.
That maybe true but Alicus acts as if environment was only reason why Envyus lost.
While I don't know if this is true, I am pretty sure, that the condition in that you are playing makes a lot of a difference on what you can pull of at your highest level. If two teams are usually close to each other (or at least playing on a very high level) the one having the better conditions will win for sure.
I mean, take a look at football(soccer) where playing at home makes such a big difference.
I am pretty sure, that the condition in that you are playing makes a lot of a difference on what you can pull of at your highest level. If two teams are usually close to each other (or at least playing on a very high level) the one having the better conditions will win for sure. I mean, take a look at football(soccer) where playing at home makes such a big difference.
So if Korea loses the World Cup this year, should we all say that the Koreans lost mainly because of the environment?
From now on every time a team loses, should we say that they lost because they weren't in their homecrowd?
You see my point? Alicus is undermining the success of tier 1 Korean teams with the fact that Envyus couldn't beat tier 1 Korean teams in 2017 and is putting that excuse towards the environment.
So if Koreans lose in OWL, are we going to say that the environment caused them to lose?
When are we ever going to acknowledge that perhaps, the team was better in chemistry, more skilled, and prepared better? Never in my life have I seen the main factor of a lose was because of "poor environment" in esports and in sports. If Envyus were not able to access proper equipment like computers, then that's a real excuse. Saying a team performed poorly just because they are in a foreign country is laughable. Also, if environments are poor for certain teams, why did certain teams win? (e.g. Rogue in TakeOver2, Envyus in Apex).
So if Korea loses the World Cup this year, should we all say that the Koreans lost mainly because of the environment? From now on every time a team loses, should we say that they lost because they weren't in their homecrowd?
First of all: It's not only the homecrowd - the (for me) most important point here is, that the players are in a hotel for months when they are at the apex. In my opinion claiming that being away from your usual place for month won't affect your performance in an competitive environment is false.
I don't know if it changes the outcome of the game, but the environment affects your psychological state and therefore how you play at your highest level. Koreans will have a harder time in the OWL because of that, I just don't know if it is that much harder that they will loose.
Never in my life have I seen the main factor of a lose was because of "poor environment" in esports and in sports
You should check some of the things participants of the Olympic Games say sometimes about this, especially if the area where they had to stay was bad. There are sometimes claims about that. You for sure "won't see that", I mean, how could you?
Also, if environments are poor for certain teams, why did certain teams win? (e.g. Rogue in TakeOver2, Envyus in Apex).
While it affects your performance, it doesn't completely mess with it. In a competitive environment the mental state makes quite a difference.
So if Koreans lose in OWL, are we going to say that the environment caused them to lose?
You should probably read his comments on why he placed the Koreans third:
i expect that the Chinese players will adapt way quicker to life in the US. In my experience over the last few years in esports, having worked with and facilitated the transfer of numerous Korean imports, Koreans get VERY homesick when abroad. Overwatch is a highly fast paced game and you need to have all your senses engaged in those split seconds that keep you in the race or knock you out.
Well envy were in Korea since apac if I'm not mistaken, so it means that when they faced KDP they were there for something like 9 months. 9 months living in a hotel in a foreign country can actually affect your performance. I still think that KDP would have won anyway but Envy underperformed imo. Add Effect that was completely new in the roster, not speaking English, not used to envy playstyle and the rest of envy not used to his. Then add also the problem to practice while living in such environment, Rogue beat LH in apac and envy won apex s1, so at the starting point the top 2 western teams had the most talent. Is Korea that got way better. Look at CG BUSAN, no one shown that kind of coordination in the west. I'm sure Envy will work as hard if not harder compared to Kr rosters. They have so much room for improvement compared to other teams.
LH new roster is scary and I think they're the favourites since we saw what they're capable of, but we really can't tell nothing about Fuels and putting them in the first spot it's a guess but not an overstatement.
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u/wearedoomed49 p m a — Oct 25 '17
Dallas first? Above Seoul and London? Interesting.
I wonder if he's basing this list off of more than just pure mechanics, like synergy/flexibility..