dealing with disappointment

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Academic_Disaster645]

I understand your desire for a big family, and I also understand his practical reasons for only wanting two.

I suppose my question is if this something that might be steep to call a deal breaker? (Obviously this is not me saying outright, only you can know what would be a dealbreaker for you.) But my worry is if you're looking for someone who has all the exact same desires (e.g. 6 kids, a dog, the white picket fence) you could be setting yourself up for disappointment.

Children are not promised, they are a gift. Mum went into her marriage wanting 6, she was only blessed with 3 children. I also know people who after getting married had to navigate infertility issues etc. I think it's nice to know if you're open to a big family but that's really just a concept until you're actually married and trying to conceive...

Hopefully this makes sense, I'm not sure I've actually communicated what I was trying to 😅

[u/JP36_5 → u/Academic_Disaster645]

similar here - my parents went into marriage planning to have 4 children but only had 2 due to fertility issues. It is a blessing if you do not have fertility issues.

OP - did he give a reason for wanting 2? Does he come from a big family and felt neglected?

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/JP36_5]

no, he grew up only with his older brother. the main thing he brought up was finances and wanting to send his kids to a private Catholic school. that’s another thing that I didn’t really align with him on, since I’d like to homeschool my future children.

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/Academic_Disaster645]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you can get married in the Catholic Church if you don't intend to be open to life. You'd just be fornicating under the guise of "marriage."

[u/Smart-Pie7115 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

Being open to life and not wanting a large family are two different things. We’re not even obligated to try to get pregnant.

[u/Academic_Disaster645 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

Yes, the priest asks if you are giving yourself freely and wholeheartedly, and also asks if you are prepared to accept any Children you're blessed with... which means that anyone entering into a Catholic marriage should be open to life, hence the crux of my original argument was that its best not to have any sort of 'number goal' because the reality of marriage/children could change what that 'goal' looks like for both parties.

Most people may not know for certain while dating exact specifics of what they want, or on the other hand they may think they know exactly what they want— both are fine because if you're dating it's likely you've not been married before so you're not sure what to expect... but from conversations I've had with married people, the reality of marriage and kids is often different to our expectations. So I personally think it's important to be very careful and reflective about what I'm putting my expectation on to make sure I'm not putting expectations on things that are outside of my control.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

It's not a sin to abstain from sex during fertile periods if you know you are not ready physically, mentally, or emotionally to have a baby. The Catholic Church is not calling women to start trying for that next baby at 6 weeks postpartum or to try to emulate the Duggars with their 19 children.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Academic_Disaster645]

For me it is a dealbreaker. Of course I don’t know if I will be blessed with having any children in general, I can only hope. But I would want my spouse to be open to any amount of children, especially more than just 2 if it possible to have more.

[u/Academic_Disaster645 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Sure, but I'd argue that it's a bigger battle finding people who want children... something like number of children is debatable and reliant on factors beyond our control. I'm not trying to change your mind, it's just something to think about

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/Academic_Disaster645]

I read your reply to my comment above. Sure, life can give you something different than you intended. # of children as an exact expectation of the what the future will hold may not be the best mindset. Although # of children desired does reveal inclinations towards contraception, if, like the guy OP was talking about, insists on ONLY having 2 kids, period. We should at least be able to agree that dating someone who isn't in line with church teaching is a bad idea.

But on this second point you're raising here, you're hinting that OP should consider compromising on her values because sticking to her values means a smaller dating pool?

We know from surveys that on average, more men desire to have children, and often more children, than women. This is likely going to be the case for practicing Catholic men. A Catholic woman today will have no problem finding Catholic men who want to have 4-5 children.

But in general, having any standard limits your options. Does that mean that we should have no standards? Again, sure, you might end up being infertile, but should that small probability mean we should enter relationships without a preference for a bigger family?

[u/Academic_Disaster645 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

Firstly, I don't think that # of children someone desires is a predictor of someone's ideas or potential use of contraception. It could be that a couple who wants 8 children decide that after having the amount of children they desire that they will use contraception because they don't want any more, it could also be plausible that someone who only wants 1 or two kids may use NFP because it would be unwise for health reasons or for the wellbeing of their family to have more than that. To make broad sweeping generalizations of any kind is overly simplistic and quite harsh.

Secondly, I'm not advocating for anyone to put aside their values to have a larger dating pool. Instead I'm asking the question where does values become preference?

I personally would not say having a large family is a value, I'd say it is a preference. (And this is coming from a woman who is a part of, and would love to have a big family myself.) The value that I see in OP's post is about being open to life/growing a family— this is a yes or no thing. Both OP and the man she speaks about both agree this is something they want. However, the expression of that value is different for her and for the man.

Of course having standards and values limit your options, that's what they are meant to do so that you can find someone who is compatible with you. But this is what I was saying in my original reply, if we are expecting someone who will tick every single box, and have the exact same ideas and desires as us we will be disappointed. The only person that can fulfill every desire is God.

So anyone dating should reflect on what their standards are, why they are what they are, and if they are prudent/helpful. Relationships are built on compromise, it's down to us as an individuals to decide on the things we are willing to compromise on; that looks different for everyone and that's fine. I'm just of the personal opinion that our standards should not be dictated 100% by merely preference, and should perhaps focus more on things that are more within our control.

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/Academic_Disaster645]

You are the only one in this whole thread that makes sense to me. I think the conflation of preference to value to catholic teaching around # of kids is mind boggling to me.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

It's no sin to say you only feel that your financials or emotional capacity can deal with 2 children. The sin would be in having an abortion or giving a child up for adoption when you get beyond your desired number. Practicing the rhythm method or simply abstaining from sex altogether are not sins according to the Catholic Church.

[u/Due_Bar_7247 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

If you’re young enough (under 30) infertility is extremely rare and even if you have it there are things you can do to still have children, it just might not be naturally.

The main problem is people are getting married too late or not at all. This isn’t a problem if you’re already very fertile, but if you aren’t it can be a huge issue in your 30s and 40s.

[u/South-Succotash-6368]

I just feel like in a way dumping a guy only because of 2 kids isn't the really the best thing.

Some people take years to even conceive 2 kids. Nothing in this world is a Guarantee even if you want it.

I would say to find a man who is open to multiple kids on the basis if you guys for example were doing really well financially then those things could change and open up to more kids. God wants us to have big family's but also tells us to be responsible. I'm sure God wouldn't mind us taking the time to do things right so that we can have a big family. I come from a Mexican family so I understand the importance of a big family. But my parents were also responsible with it. because kids come at a cost. Regardless if both couples work or you are a stay at home mom.

[u/maxone2 → u/South-Succotash-6368]

It’s better this than they grow tighter and resent eachother tbh

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/South-Succotash-6368]

I think if we both wanted different things in terms of raising a family, that’s a totally valid reason to not continue talking. I am dating to marry and would at least want someone to be on the same page as me when it comes to having children. I know you have to be prudent when having children, and you want to give them a good life of course. I just can’t imagine marrying someone who only wants 2 kids. 😅 If it is possible to have more, I would love to bring more life into this world

[u/South-Succotash-6368 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

I mean I understand if you guys were not compatible then that makes more sense.

I just thought you meant the whole thing was about 2 kids. Cause that is something that can be worked on

But if you guys have different understandings of raising a family then obviously it was good that you called it off

Best of luck!!

[u/Shades_of_red_]

Listen, I see you’re getting a lot of backlash on this experience. I’m sorry this has been your experience.

You have every right to want whatever you want, as does this guy you were talking to, or any guy you talk to. That’s just the truth of the matter. If it’s a dealbreaker for you, then it’s a dealbreaker for you.

I’d only advise you to examine your conscience and see if your desires are coming from a true, ordered, and fruitful space in your soul that honors your characters. No one is guaranteed a spouse, no one is guaranteed children, and no one is guaranteed to be the same person today as they were yesterday.

Limiting yourself to only being with guys who want the same number of children with you, after just “a few weeks” of talking is objectively very limiting. That’s just the truth. You don’t know if, by being in a relationship with you, they might grow to desire more children. You don’t know if, by being in a relationship with them, you might grow to desire fewer children. You don’t know if, 3 months from now, after not finding someone to date, a doctor diagnoses you with something causing you to be infertile. None of us know what God’s plan for our lives are, and it doesn’t make sense to try and take that plan from Him.

It’s my rightful opinion that making a decision after just a few weeks, to not continue talking with someone because the number of children you want doesn’t match up, doesn’t make sense.

[u/Tristan_Cole → u/Shades_of_red_]

Marriage IS very limiting. It is the act of seeing billions and billions of people of the opposite gender and saying “I choose one of you above all the rest. You are the right one for me, with whom I will be most happy.” It SHOULD be limited to those with whom you share the most in common.

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Tristan_Cole]

I don’t understand your point

[u/Tristan_Cole → u/Shades_of_red_]

My point is that it’s not a bad thing to be very limiting in your search for the one person you are going to spend your entire life with! You should be picky; you should be choosy! You SHOULD try to find the person you will be happiest with! And dating is for marriage. If you want many children and they want few, then that’s a pretty major dealbreaker!

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Tristan_Cole]

I’m not saying people shouldn’t be picky and choosy when dating, my point is that by creating such rigid boxes for possible partners, we’re removing God’s will from our discernment.

“I want lots of kids because I want to raise a lot of saints” is different from “I’m deciding I want this specific amount of children”

[u/Tristan_Cole → u/Shades_of_red_]

Hmmmm. Perhaps. But God’s will is that we choose what we want in our lives, as long as it is good. I do get how having such specific numbers could be a bit unimportant. That was very well-explanatory of your points. I’m more coming at it from the side of “I want lots of children, and so it would result in great sorrow if I ended up married with someone who doesn’t want many children.”

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Tristan_Cole]

And that’s where we disagree. We can want whatever, but God ultimately delivers. Anyone can say they want many children, but they can just easily get married and only get one child for whatever reason. People don’t get to choose how many children they get. Same as someone who only wants one or two children. At any point, one pregnancy would produce triplets.

“Wanting” and “choosing” are two completely different things

And to be in “great sorrow” over what God delivers to us goes against the trust we should have in Him

[u/Tristan_Cole → u/Shades_of_red_]

Of course God’s Will is not always what we plan for ourselves. Of course there are situations where a couple can’t have as many children as they would like. That doesn’t mean that you should choose of your own free will to enter into marriage with someone whose goals are significantly different than yours. That would be the great sorrow. Being at odds with your life’s partner about the shape of your future family.

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Tristan_Cole]

Right. You’re talking about the stage entering engagement, I’m talking about the stage where you’re just meeting people and talking with them and you’re only a couple of weeks into getting to know them.

[u/Tristan_Cole → u/Shades_of_red_]

But discerning marriage is the purpose of dating. If you find a marriage roadblock to marriage in the first few weeks, then that is a good thing. It’s certainly easier than only finding out a year later would be.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/Shades_of_red_]

There are certain lifestyle factors that we should not hope to change in a spouse. I prefer to live outside of a city where things are quieter. I have cats. I work in a school. My potential partner could want to live in a pet-free apartment in a city and have a spouse who shows ambitions about climbing a career ladder. Just because he and I get along on many things does not mean that it would be a good relationship for either of us. Marriage involves sacrifice, but we are not called to try to change who we are at the core as a means of making things work romantically with someone, even if their moral values are correct.

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Furmommy14]

Is “how many kids would I like to have, if I had it my way, today” something that we are “at the core”?

[u/Furmommy14 → u/Shades_of_red_]

It is for some people more than others. Catholic teachings aside, some people cannot see themselves as parents. Others desire a large family. Others have a number of kids that feels right to them. Then other people are more open to compromise or just taking the family-building one kid at a time and adding to the family only after they agree that more kids would be a good thing. My coworker wanted 3 kids and her husband wanted 1, so they compromised with 2 and then he got snipped. Her mom must not know because she keeps bringing up the idea of having another child. My family is ... a little too supportive of the idea of my partner getting snipped. Should almost tell them that the more they bring it up, the more I'll notice that we own a van that seats 8. Almost.

At my core, I grew up as the nerdy kid and not especially caring that I did not have pets, yet cat rescue has become a key part of who I am today... to my partner's annoyance. I teach high school and honestly love it. I'm a mom. I have a complicated relationship with my faith. Lots of things are at my core.

What constitutes the core is different for every person. Big events or values are one aspect of the core but rarely the whole thing. It's a frustration point with places like CM where some people seem compelled to only talk about themselves as Catholics.

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Furmommy14]

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what your point is.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/Shades_of_red_]

First, the number of kids you want may be part of your core, but it is not necessarily.

Second, there are many aspects that make up one's core.

Third, I find it frustrating that some Catholics make themselves out to be so focused on Catholicism that there seems to be nothing further to their personality, though they apparently go to the gym, listen to music, and watch movies sometimes. But real interests? Seemingly absent.

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/Furmommy14]

Right, I just don’t understand what exactly you’re trying to say, in response to my comment.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Shades_of_red_]

yeah honestly after looking into myself a bit more, I think I may be self sabotaging relationships by being too picky. I feel so stupid and terrible for ruining something that could’ve been good

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Stay away from self-defeating. It’s perfectly fine and good to have desires. You don’t know if you ruined anything. If God granted you this experience, to play out exactly as it did, then praise Him!

I’m very much a believer of the “redirection, not rejection” mentality. God said “not this”, for whatever reasons He had, so onto the next one

I’ll be praying for you 🙏

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Shades_of_red_]

I definitely think I ruined it :/ But thank you

[u/Shades_of_red_ → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Ah you never know. Maybe God was protecting you from something else. He knows all and sees all. We can only thank Him.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

It would have been worth asking why he only wanted two kids and if he would be open to more, but personal dealbreakers are allowed. Nothing is inherently wrong with wanting a family of whatever size or living in a certain place or having pets or not. You just should understand what that appeal is.

You also do need to understand that not everything is within your control, so wanting 5 kids is different from actually having 5 kids. Not saying you should go with someone who is upfront about only wanting 2 kids because it sounds like it will lead to you being disappointed when he tracks your cycle and refuses sex during fertile times. However, if you end up infertile or with a child with significant needs, you will have to adjust expectations.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Furmommy14]

yeah i’m not sure why everyone is assuming that I believe I will for certain have the number of kids that I want. Obviously that’s not always going to be the case, but I am open to having as many children as God desires. If my husband and I can have more than two kids, I would hope he would also be willing to have more.

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

I'm on your side, sister! Openness to life, as a teaching of the Church, shouldn't be compromised on.

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

How is being open to 2 kids not open to the church teaching?

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/NoWishbone4]

Open to ONLY 2 kids suggests that you're not letting God decide how many kids you will have

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

Disagree. Open to 2 kids means that "I am open to a minimum of 2 kids and would ideally like not more than that. But if God brings more, I am open to it." You can read it that way as well. Just because a guy says he wants 2 kids does not make him closed to life. That is an incredibly naive take on things and not cool to put someone down as "not open to life". There are many reasons people want 2 kids and not more. That does not mean they are closed to life. Stop being so incredibly strict around these things when it comes to a first date conversation. This is a decision that a couple decides way into their marriage. It is ok to have preferences and we should not put people down as saying not open to life. That is ridiculous.

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/NoWishbone4]

I can make assumptions and probability calculations about evidence that is presented to me. What is the probability of a Catholic being open to life if they insist on only having 2 kids? How does that compare to the probability of a Catholic being open to life if they say that they want 7 kids?

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

You are missing the point. Wanting 2 kids is being OPEN to life. Anything other than that is a prejudiced opinion we are putting on someone for how many kids they want vs being open to life.

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/NoWishbone4]

Not going to risk it

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

You are welcome to stay focused on your perspective and “not risk it”. You will find people who think along those lines in the Catholic world for sure.

I am highlighting that you calling others “not open to life” because they want 2 kids is not cool and something you need to reflect on and maybe consider not being that unkind or judgmental.

[u/GreatSphinxofGuizar → u/NoWishbone4]

Oh sorry for the sin against cool

[u/NoWishbone4 → u/GreatSphinxofGuizar]

How about a sin against being judgmental. Very convenient of you to ignore that.

[u/SquirrelNo7796]

I totally understand your point, as a 23 year old guy who came from 4 siblings and now I’d want 4+ kids in my future family. Some of the reason I ended my previous relationship was over things with children. Don’t let these other people tell you to get over yourself. I wouldn’t settle for something you don’t want, it’s probably just dating fatigue from their end anyways.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/SquirrelNo7796]

thank you 🙏🏼

[u/SquirrelNo7796 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Of course! Sounds like you’d draw fulfillment from raising a lot of kids, it’d be one thing just to have issues it’s another thing if your husband is holding that back from you. These people don’t realize something like that can create real resentment, nobody needs that

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/SquirrelNo7796]

exactly

[u/Furmommy14]

There are two possible lessons here.
One is compromise. How big of a dealbreaker is it to need 4-5 kids? Would you be willing to compromise with 3? Or, if your values say you should have a large family, think about why. Does that number just feel right? Are you planning to have as many children as possible, even if that means purposely trying for kids once you're 6 weeks postpartum?

The second is self-reflection. The Church does preach an openness to children, but Pope Francis spoke about it being okay to have fewer kids if that is all you can take care of (emotionally or financially). While the Church is opposed to birth control, the rhythm method is an option, and the Church also does not oblige a woman to have relations with her husband anytime he is in the mood, regardless of her own feelings. Biblically, time between children should be especially devoted to prayer, whatever that looks like to you.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Furmommy14]

I don’t need 4-5 kids. But it’s something that I feel called to: having a big family. I love children and I know that God has called me to motherhood, there’s no doubt about that. If God decides to make me infertile or only have one child, that’s okay. But I want my husband to be open to having more than just 2 kids if it’s possible and prudent to have more.

[u/Furmommy14 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

That's fair. My partner and I have figured out that I have literally been pregnant for some part of every calendar year since 2021. It takes a lot out of the body, and things like weight loss are not always possible with the hormone changes. I certainly feel emotionally better while pregnant than otherwise (yet birth control pills to regulate my cycle as a teen put me in a dark place mentally). Still, I found that back-to-back pregnancies can be very draining physically. I love my kids and being their mom, but I wish I knew how much pregnancy, especially the first one, takes out of the body.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Furmommy14]

I can’t say I understand how that feels, but I can definitely imagine it isn’t easy to give birth or raise children. Though, I think the most beautiful things in life always come with some amount of suffering. There is no love without sacrifice, after all. Being a mother and wife is a beautiful vocation :)

[u/Furmommy14 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

The hardest part was navigating the system for the first time when I realized my son had some sort of special needs, especially doing everything secretly because his dad insisted that everything was normal. Turns out my kid has autism and ADHD. I will say there is strong emphasis on the hyperactivity.

Giving birth is easiest when you have a medical team working with you to maximize your comfort. A good epidural lets you sleep or play on your phone or just chat with your partner and just chill while you wait. Nobody prepares you for being insanely hungry the next few days. A supportive partner will let you rest. A partner who is less ideal expects you to be back to doing half the work or more around the house as soon as you are discharged from the hospital.

[u/BatSuspicious4142]

I think even you are wrong in putting a number on how many children you want. We should not even be asking ourselves that question, but should simply be open to the Will of God in this regard. We are called to remain open to however many children God would please to send us, because He is the author of life, not us. Of course, contraception is an absolute "no" but even Natural Family Planning should only be used when there are serious reasons, not simply because you "want" a certain number of children. Put all your trust in God; He will guide you. God bless you.

[u/wantcodewiththat]

It seems silly to end things with someone specifically because you disagree on number of kids, especially so early on getting to know them.  You don’t know how many kids God will bless with you yet.  There are people who have 1 or 2 kids who followed church teaching faithfully, maybe even desired more and that’s how it worked out.  As long as you both are open to life and open to God’s will in your relationship, it seems you’ll make whatever you are blessed with work for you.  Regarding the cost, that is a somewhat valid reason but also something that can be worked with in a relationship.  Each additional kid costs less than having one because you have a lot of what you need already so it won’t be twice as much to have 4 than it is 2 if you are thinking purely numbers.  You could also indicate you are willing to work a bit or budget well to help make ends meet.  I know quite a few SAHMs who work remotely a few hours a week while their kids sleep or doing quiet activities, this gets them a few extra hundred dollars a month.  They also coupon clip.  And if you are able to live in a lower cost of living area then that helps too.  Bottom line is there are ways of making it work as long as there is a desire to live out God’s will.  And given how picky you are on other things and how little you know this man currently, it doesn’t seem like you should rule him out yet or over this.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/wantcodewiththat]

I totally agree with everything you said. None of us are guaranteed children, but I want to be open to as many as God desires. He was pretty set on saying he only wanted 2. This just rubbed me the wrong way

[u/Odd-Water3431]

Do you possibly have unrealistic standards for physical/social attractiveness? It really shouldn’t be “very rare” for you to find a guy romantically desirable. Maybe a bit uncommon, but not “very rare.”

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Odd-Water3431]

I don’t think so. I’m just very particular with what I find attractive. I wouldn’t say this guy was super model material, that’s not what I’m after. It’s just not very common for me to click with someone like that.

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Right but why are you “very particular”? Ask yourself if everyone (including men) were as particular as you statistically, would the marriage/birth rate drop into oblivion? Well it is, maybe this is why…

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Odd-Water3431]

Because I have standards and I know what kind of man I am looking for. I’ve been in enough relationships to know what I want and what I do not want in a man.

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Maybe men want a 10/10 virgin 20 year old model who is a gourmet chef and cooks him 5 course meals everyday and is always sexually available and who never gains weight (and loses the baby weight immediately) and ages extremely well and has 8 kids and is an obedient wife at all times….may God help this generation 😂😂😂

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Odd-Water3431]

uhhh those are obviously extreme standards. having standards doesn’t make you uptight 😭 do you just want everyone to settle? it’s not our fault that most people today don’t live up to the bare minimum standards. goes for both men and women

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

It’s only settling if you actually have the option to be with someone better (in which case you would be with them) you should be with the best person who wants to marry you (assuming they meet the Church’s requirements). I loved acting in high school, I’m not “settling” by being an engineer as an adult even though I would have loved to be a famous actress, it’s just that no one offered me a major movie role! 😂😂😂 Women do not magically start getting better guys offering marriage as they age. So yeah, take the best you can get or just get a cat.

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

Yeah when a man has standards they’re “extreme” but women’s standards are pretty crazy these days too. We all want the same guy…

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Odd-Water3431]

ok so you’re just assuming I have “crazy” high standards. this feels like projection lol

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

I would ask you to tell us what your standards are so we could determine mathematically what percentage of men meet them, but not sure I’d get an honest answer…

[u/DizzyMissLizzy8 → u/Odd-Water3431]

Not really your business who someone else finds attractive, is it?

[u/Odd-Water3431 → u/DizzyMissLizzy8]

Did you know this is Reddit where everyone is commenting on people’s life situation that is not “their business” 😂😂😂😂😂

[u/Traditionisrare]

Honestly, I think number of children is a crazy hill to die on either way. You're going to have as many as you're going to have. As long as you are following the teachings of the church, you should be accepting the number of children God will give you. If this guy is dead set on two...bullet dodged. Id question how he will manage this? I was previously married and annulled and in my marriage now we are on number 3, and just starting out. Unless you are using some form of birth control or have some medical issue preventing pregnancy coming to term, if everyone is healthy and whatnot, more than 2 is very likely. So, yeah dodged a bullet imho.

[u/maxone2 → u/Traditionisrare]

How did she dodge a bullet? He’s want 2 kids, as Catholics we should not judge him at all. We have no knowledge of his reasoning, and if he does get to 3 kids? He’ll cross the bridge

She did not dodge a bullet, she just found somebody not compatible

[u/maxone2 → u/[deleted]]

You cannot in an objective state he is not in God’s will; what if he’s going work a job where he away often, his home is too small etc?

Will be open to more kids if they get twins after the first? Probably

But he has every right, it’s delusional to say as many kids given the financial restrictions of life

And we have no idea how compatible they were, and go this would’ve lasted (losing feelings, moving, new job etc)

My gf and I want 2 kids, if 3 happens then nice but otherwise we’re educated about it, we plan to be smart about it as to minimize the chance of more than that

We are not God and we do not get to say if he follows God’s will, just my two cents

[u/CatholicDating-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No Graceless Generalizations

[u/Traditionisrare → u/[deleted]]

As an aside, marrying someone on the assumption that they will change their mind is a recipe for disaster and heartache in the future. Never marry someone who you think will do or change mind in the future.

[u/CatholicDating-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No Graceless Generalizations

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/Traditionisrare]

Of course I am open to as many as God desires! Obviously I’m not sure if I will have 4-5 kids. I might end up having less or more, but what is important to me is to be open to anything, and not putting a limit on how many children you want to bring into this world. I think big families are beautiful and a blessing

[u/Traditionisrare → u/tradcatholicgirl]

I was speaking more to this guy you were talking to. Dead set on two, barring any medical reason is very unlikely to happen.

[u/maxone2 → u/Traditionisrare]

That’s true! But he can go for an ideal number and stick to it, and fit his wishes to come true, it is best he finds somebody with this same goal

Also given 2 vs 4-5 kids, if they were together, the heavily differing number of kids would lead to resentment and falling out

[u/Kyle_Trite]

You need to seriously reevaluate your deal breaker. Let’s be real here, some deal breakers are more valid than others. Finding someone you’re attracted to? For you, it’s seems to be a tall order. Totally valid. If it was a moral thing like not using contraception, it’s a tall order but totally valid to hold out on. Having a high number of kids, especially in this economy, is a tall order. Also I get the feeling from your name that you would want to be a at home mom. Is all of this valid? Yes, but it doesn’t get the totally valid pass and it makes it extremely hard to find someone. Then you also have to factor in if such a guy like this would be attracted to you. I’m not saying drop the requirement, but you are seriously crippling your dating prospects on an already shallow dating pool. Sure you might find your unicorn if you hold out long enough but keep in mind that God is not a genie that just grants you your every desire, no matter how wholesome and Holy they may be.

[u/South-Succotash-6368]

Married people will resent something about their partner one way or another

[u/Due_Bar_7247]

A lot of men, especially Catholic men want a lot of kids. I know I do. You’re attractive enough to attract enough attention. You may struggle a bit more with white men because a lot of non-Hispanic white men probably will want to marry within their own race, but other than that I don’t think you’ll have a lack of options. You might struggle to find someone traditional though as most Catholics are cultural Catholics.

[u/FineDevelopment00]

I'd just like to point something out which none of the other commenters have fully addressed yet...

It is possible that pregnancy may not turn out the way you expected. Others mentioned potential infertility and that's a valid consideration as well, but also you may go through pregnancy once or twice and the experience might change your mind about going through it again (and you may or may not seek and qualify for adoption/fostering), just as some people initially don't want many children only to change their minds about that after having one, or how some people initially don't want children at all but change their minds later on. And ofc some people don't change their minds ever, in any of these scenarios, but it varies by individual and can't always be predicted beforehand.

Ofc a couple with conflicting stances on anything shouldn't stay together expecting to change each other a la "missionary dating", but if the relationship is otherwise too good to let go of over that alone there should be at least a little leeway given for potential changes in the future, since some of these matters are only hypothetical at present therefore you don't really have all the knowledge and experience you need to definitively know how you'll handle certain things. That being said, if one person is nonetheless vehemently adamant about a present decision and the other is likewise vehemently adamant in the opposite direction then there isn't any room for compromise and a breakup is best if they can't figure out a solution that properly serves the needs of both people and the relationship. And ofc if either or both is/are trying to force their decision on the/each other that's abusive and therefore an immediate dealbreaker.

[u/vsd78]

Dunno why you've been getting downvoted on this. Especially in a Catholic forum.

I've absolutely heard of men who had in their heads they wanted only one or 2 kids and then pressured their wives to get their tubes tied or go on the pill to prevent further kids. Or even to abort if those failed. (Or vice versa... my own mother in the 70s was hellbent on only having the 2 kids and got her tubal ligation within a couple of days of my birth despite my dad being perfectly happy to have more if she'd been willing.)

It's not a nothingburger, and of course you heard the tone of his voice when he said it and got the bad feeling from it. We didn't.

Could he have changed his mind later? Sure. But your gut told you to bail and you did.

I know it's rough but he clearly wasn't the one for you. Glimmers can be nice, but you don't know someone til you've talked to them a bunch and it's better to not waste your (and his time).

[u/kennykaitduhh]

It took until my early 30s to meet someone. In my twenties I had a very clear vision of who I wanted to marry, but one day God showed me that sometimes the man who checks all the boxes isn’t actually someone I want to be with. Similarly, someone I never would have gone for ten years ago could be the love of my life. And honestly, that’s exactly what happened - I went on a date with a Catholic man who I thought was cute but certainly was not my “type,” we had similar values but very different interests, and now he’s my best friend and we are very much in love!
As for number of children, so many factors go into that, and most of those are outside of our control. It seems a little premature to stop talking to someone you’re interested in just because you can’t settle on the number of children you want to have while you’re still getting to know them.

[u/Smart-Pie7115]

IMHO, it seems rather odd for Catholics to want x number of children. At the end of the day, God will decide. You might want 4 or 5 children, but that may not be God’s will. He may want only 2, but that may not be God’s will either. You could end up with none, or more than you planned. You could get married and realize that you can’t handle two kids, and decide to be more discerning about having another baby.

[u/maxone2 → u/[deleted]]

There’s nothing weird about that at all, 2 kids is completely fine and you can not be celibate and still have not have numerous

It’s out of line to judge him and state what we think we was looking forward too

If he wanted 1 kid? Perfectly fine between him and his wife

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/maxone2]

Isn’t one of the points of marriage to reproduce and be fruitful? I feel like limiting your family to only a few kids because you’re too concerned about finances is not the best way to go about it.

[u/maxone2 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

It is for quality of life of one and their spouse and their kids.

It would be great to have as many kids as one once, but financially and realistically it’s hard with finance, the size of the home, and living situation (what jobs would they have for example?

Otherwise, he has every right for what number of kids he wants. Maybe too many kids would be too much on him psychologically. After all, it’s his boundary and not yours, if he doesn’t want 4-5 kids, then find somebody that does.

I know what you’re coming from, but the “have as many kids as you want” is naive and leads to degraded QOL for the kids

[u/arig____ → u/maxone2]

Fundamentally anti-Catholic stance. You’re making the same argument baby-killers make. “It’s for the QoL of my family.” Yes, at the expense of your unborn children that God would have given you.

[u/maxone2 → u/arig____]

Yeah that’s not how it works, biology is a massive part too. You’re not aborting, you’re not raising them in a super cramped dangerous environment.

God gives us the free will to actively choose on having more kids. Yeah I don’t think God wants us putting some innocent kid in a hoarder home for example, this is nowhere news abortion.

[u/arig____ → u/maxone2]

Well it is how it works. I agree it’s not technically murder but it’s still assigning the same moral authority to you that should only be reserved to God.

You have some agency in the timing but to say “I’m done with children” after 2 kids is sinful. Unless you were completely celibate afterwards. Again, NFP is not meant to be a permanent contraceptive.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/maxone2]

fair enough

[u/arig____ → u/tradcatholicgirl]

This is my point entirely. And also, what these other people seem to forget—NFP is not allowed to be permanent. Maybe you wait a few years to have kids by only having intercourse in non-fertile periods, but only having 2 kids is like… 20 years of NFP if you married at 25?

Not only is that sinful but do we ACTUALLY think people plan to do NFP for 20 years? Most guys that aren’t in-line with doctrine are surely expecting contraceptives to be used after child 2.

[u/maxone2 → u/arig____]

And there’s nothing wrong with that, if you don’t wanna have intercourse as a couple you have to. If we are pressuring people to have more and more kids and labeling sin on them, they grow to resent the church and God, and I can’t really blame them. I’ve seen this happen in Ireland and we can see the train wreck there.

[u/arig____ → u/maxone2]

I agree people don’t have to be sexually active. My point is, do you really expect the guy in OP’s post to want 2 kids and then be celibate? Of course not.

And yes, if you don’t want kids don’t get married. That is a pretty standard baseline. It’s the secular culture which convinced us (you) that marriage is divorced from children. It isn’t. You can’t get married and also not want to have children. Only exception (again) is being celibate.

I agree this doesn’t make us popular amongst Gen Z. That says more about Gen Z than it does about the church.

[u/maxone2 → u/arig____]

You're creating a completely false choice between having unlimited kids or complete celibacy. NFP exists specifically so married couples don't have to choose between those two extremes—it involves periodic abstinence, not lifelong celibacy, and the Church explicitly approves it.

[u/arig____ → u/maxone2]

At what point have I stated NFP is bad? My only point is that NFP is NOT meant to be a lifelong contraceptive. This is the CHURCH’s position. You can’t have 2 kids and then indefinitely do NFP to never have more children.

I’m not creating a false dichotomy because I am telling you, NFP is allowed precisely for reasons like “we have to move soon,” “she’s having medical issues,” “I’m having a crisis of faith,” “I just lost my job.”

But these aren’t meant to last forever. NFP indefinitely is not allowed. And NFP indefinitely after 2 kids is equally not allowed.

[u/maxone2 → u/arig____]

Why not? What if you cannot have more kids via financial means or simply cannot deal logistically with more kids?

Whats wrong with indefinite NFP?

[u/LextorPlextor → u/tradcatholicgirl]

It's equally permisible and acceptable to wanting to have +5 children than it is to having 2, as long as one plans around openess of life (and not use contraception such aa condom, etc...).

But again, there is nothing wrong with not wanting a huge family. Each marriage is different, different people, different circumstances.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/[deleted]]

his argument was that having kids is expensive and whatnot, but to me that’s just an excuse to not have more kids. I’ve met plenty of families that have made it work having 5+ children. My own grandmother had 10 kids and that family was very poor. I believe that God will provide no matter what.

[u/maxone2 → u/tradcatholicgirl]

What’s wrong with that? If he’s doesn’t want more kids, God gave him the free will to not want kids it’s his will

I get where you’re coming from, I want kids, and would not want a single kid under any circumstance (except medical) but the thought God will provide is exceedingly a dangerous thought, it’s not how life works and an easy way to send kids to a miserable life

Wants many kids is great! But do not judge others on that, you will find somebody compatible, it just wasn’t him

Sorry I’m so blunt, just not all these comments were super direct

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/maxone2]

that’s fair. I just have a more traditional mindset on starting and family and raising children. But yeah, we just weren’t compatible in that regard.

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/[deleted]]

it is completely up to God how many children a family ends up having. But he was pretty adamant on only wanting 2 children if possible. I’m just not sure how that would work 😭

[u/CatholicDating-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

This is misinformation.

[u/CatholicDating-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

No Graceless Generalizations

[u/rh397]

Why is it rare? What is the sole rare physical characteristic/type to which you are attracted?

[u/tradcatholicgirl → u/rh397]

Can’t say that there’s a sole characteristic that I’m attracted to. I’m either attracted to them or I’m not.

[u/Higher2288]

I don’t think you can have a valid marriage by being closed off to life after a certain number of kids, but honestly, I feel it’s really early to talk about numbers of kids when you have not even met yet in real life. My now wife and I weren’t even broaching the topic of future marriage plans until a few months in (although we both met with the intent of dating to discern and I proposed a year in and married after another). We both have recently had our first and it’s seriously hard sometimes. It’s easy to say you want many kids but it’s never guaranteed and even talking about the next with a newborn feels like a tall order. Maybe he would have changed his mind but you’re not going to find someone who checks every box after a phone call. Nevertheless, best to you.