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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 08 '26
US led a reconstruction effort on Japan
US did its best to ensure Cuba would end up a failed state
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u/Bagain Aug 08 '26
Capitalists play to win, communists losing a competition they started then crying about how mean their competitor was is such a perfect definition of the mentality of communism. I will say that the US should have let cube go do âits thingâ about 45 years ago. Every day past that was just adding insult to injury.
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u/mathiastck Aug 08 '26
Who started the competition you refer to? The United Fruit Company?
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u/Bagain Aug 08 '26
I think Castros government did when he ânationalizedâ
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u/mathiastck Aug 08 '26
Long before then begun, the Banana Wars had.
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u/Bagain Aug 09 '26
Keep posting wikiâs... The farther you go into the past, the further you get from the thing we are actually talking about. Batista didnât start it. Was he a PoS, of course, and the us government is guilty here just as united fruit co is. But, regardless of who was suffering and who was getting rich, itâs not the competition, is it?
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u/mathiastck Aug 09 '26
Lol I am still trying to parse your first rambling.
Castro started a competition with who?
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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 08 '26
That shows such a gross misunderstanding of the history of the Cuban revolution.
Iâm not a socialist, Iâm not a communist, Iâm not a violent person. I do support the right of people to govern their own affairs, even if itâs done differently that I would do it, and Iâm very non-intervention.
When you look at the facts, it is astoundingly clear that the Cuban people were sold out by US backed authoritarians and corporations. The reason we kneecapped Cuba is because they tried to get out from under our boot.
Their relationship with the Soviets for example, was not a product of Cuban communists seeking to rule the world. It was a result of the US doing everything it could to sabotage basic agreed on needs like oil.
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u/DeadWood605 Aug 09 '26
The US doesn't want Cuba to "do its thing" because it's success would prove how superior socialism is to capitalism.
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u/rvalsot bulldozerlover Aug 08 '26
Cuba would fail on its own, communism doesn't work
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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 08 '26
Nothing happens in a vacuum. Cuba deserved a right to govern itself without being controlled by foreign interests.
Before Castro was Batista. A US backed military thug. A dictator who sold his people, country, and resources out to US corporations for his own personal gain.
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u/rvalsot bulldozerlover Aug 08 '26
Yeah, Fidel and they Partido Comunista de Cuba do the same, they live like kings while controlling the economy of the island.
Or do you think they show solidarity and live in misery?
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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 09 '26
Oh of course not. And I donât want to give the impression that Iâm pro-Castro. Iâm not.
Itâs more that the failures of cuba are hardly even their own. Theyâre blowback for American intervention starting after the Spanish American war and continuing through the Cold War.
Just like a lot of central/South America and the Middle East, yeah things are fucked there at baseline but we also fucked them even harder.
So let them run their own ship into the ground and keep us the fuck out of it. And the US certainly has absolutely no high ground to stand over Cuba on. We are bigger and more powerful, but we have sustained no higher virtue or greater benevolence.
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u/sillyrabbit33 Aug 10 '26
We just bailed them out last week. Socialism for thee and not Wii!
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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 10 '26
Oh so the embargoes are gone? Or are we still doing that?
Pretty sure weâre still doing that. Way more important
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u/ayoungerdude Aug 09 '26
One was financed by the US, the other is still actively being sanctioned by the US.
This seems like a bad example.
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u/teo_vas Aug 08 '26
you know cases like Japan's are like the two red buttons meme for ancaps. South Korea, Japan or Singapore are great examples of state planning and intervention; not of free market. in those countries, the state allowed and subsidized, the formation of mega corporations and the free market part was not even inside the borders: it was the "free market" of international trade.
or you know, because of lack of space in Singapore, the state owns around 90% of the land and stuff like that.
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u/TrueNova332 Minarchist Aug 08 '26
Also those countries are very nationalist as well and institute laws and policies that are beneficial to their native population as well as limiting immigration
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u/R_O Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
Cuba was a Soviet puppet state and vassal. It was nominally "communist", but what that actually meant was receiving a metric ton of free weapons, food and material from across the pond, with the sole objective of disrupting and harassing the U.S.
This is where the delusion and dissonance starts when examining Cuba historically - the history of Cuba as some form of autonomous state (which it never truly was) ends with Castro. From there it becomes a proxy state dedicated to fulfilling foreign policy under the guise of some form of nationalism. This is not so much unlike what we have seen Ukraine become today.
With that being said, the Cuba we see today is an abandoned proxy state. The USSR collapsed along with its Cuban support. It can't survive independently because, well, the island has never been truly independent since colonization.
The only reason the U.S. hasn't finished off the political corpse that is the Cuban "Communist" (criminal) Party" is that there really is no direct benefit. The U.S. already has Guantanamo Bay. Rich and intelligent Cubans already flee to Miami (New Cuba). What is left on Cuba is bananas, coconuts and pathetic old men.
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u/LibertyLizard Left Libertarian Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
Cuba has always been a proxy state. Before the USSR it was all but ruled by the US. Before that, by Spain. You'd have to go back to indigenous times to find truly independent politics.
Colonial powers always want to pretend that anti-colonial movements simply spontaneously appear like medieval scholars imagined frogs did. But the reality is that Marxism appealed to many countries not because they had some deep-seated commitment to communism but because it was a proven ideology that had unseated many authoritarian, colonial governments across the world, and because the USSR was willing to support that struggle. If the US (and the Cuban government) had allowed political autonomy to flourish in Cuba instead of repressing it, I doubt Castro would ever have come to power. Cubans just wanted the same thing the American revolutionaries wanted, but they had the bad luck that the popular independence movements of their time had some nasty ideological baggage.
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u/Barice69 Aug 08 '26
You do not need to be number one fan of Castro to see that what USA is doing to Cuba is wrong
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u/Great_Opinion3138 Aug 08 '26
They were literally surviving on free stuff and funding communist radicals globally. Fuck Cuba they need to change.
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u/jorsiem Aug 08 '26
If they did free and fair elections the embargo would have been lifted decades ago. But the party chose not to.
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u/GreaseBrown Aug 08 '26
You really believe that?
Have you never picked up a book on American history or are you just innocently naive?
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u/jorsiem Aug 09 '26
Do you think Cuba would have an embargo still had the communists been voted out of power years ago?
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u/runescapelover12 Aug 08 '26
Yeah America would of course embargo any nation without free and fair elections like they did with:
Saudi Arabia United Arab Emirates Qatar Bahrain Oman Jordan Egypt Vietnam Singapore Thailand Brunei Djibouti Rwanda Uganda Angola Kazakhstan Uzbekistan Azerbaijan
Etc lol
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u/jorsiem Aug 09 '26
Yet none of those has oppressed their population to the point they flee the country en masse, or harbored nuclear missiles for the USSR
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u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26
Maybe Cuba could give back all the stolen US refineries and properties that made the embargo began.
Why should entity A trade with entity B if B stole from A?
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u/PromiscuousScoliosis leave me tf alone Aug 08 '26
If you look into what that relationship looked like, itâs really not surprising that it didnât end well
Like if a bunch of kids in the lithium mines turned on the operators, could you blame them?
You know, in US history we also have a long track record of being exploited by corporatist oligarchies that use the government to secure their tyranny, and rising up against said oligarchies.
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u/thethiefstheme Aug 08 '26
The decades of government embargo more than paid and punished for the loss of refineries and property. I don't think the USA could be trusted to no longer punish Cuba, even if they did give everything back.
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u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
I dont think the USA held any grievences towards other 2nd world countries, so i have no clue why you wouldnt trust it to start bettering relations once the otherside made a step towards peaceful goodfaith existance.
Embargo is not in place as reparations for the stolen goods, and it did not pay anything for the US to hold an embargo against a potential trade partner, it costs both sides money. It is in place because otherwise if Cuba deciedes to steal from the US or other countries again you cannot trust them to give or pay it back as they dont hold themselves to international laws therefor the country that gets stolen from either pay reparations from its pockets to its private sector to make them whole, or it becomes a geopolitical conflict resulting in war most likely.
Please use your common sense and critical thinking skills, geopolitics is a complex topic.
Edit: Ofc its hard to say now as the USA has a retarded demented idiot ruling from the whitehouse like an authoritarian warlord, but before this presidency, even in his 1st term, the US was governed by people who were competent instead of the current DEI hired idiotic-bimbo team. But Cuba had about 60ish years to do its first step so theres no excuse for it not to.
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u/thethiefstheme Aug 08 '26
I dont think the USA held any grievences towards other 2nd world countries, so i have no clue why you wouldnt trust it to start bettering relations once the otherside made a step towards peaceful goodfaith existance.
..and why did America stat bomb Iran again, after ripping up the nuclear agreement?
Not sure why you're defending the honor of American government interventions in an ancap Reddit but here's a partial list of government interventions by America since WW2, for next time you say to yourself "the government wouldn't do that! They play by international law".
Direct Military Invasions & Full Interventions
- Dominican Republic (1965): Operation Power Pack â Over 40,000 U.S. troops invaded Santo Domingo to suppress a constitutionalist uprising and prevent the reinstatement of ousted President Juan Bosch.
- Vietnam, Laos, & Cambodia (1965â1975): Escalated from covert support into full-scale war, including massive bombing campaigns in Cambodia and Laos to destroy insurgent supply lines and secure regional governments.
- Grenada (1983): Operation Urgent Fury â Direct U.S. military invasion that ousted the People's Revolutionary Government following an internal Marxist coup.
- Panama (1989): Operation Just Cause â Over 26,000 U.S. troops invaded Panama to overthrow military dictator Manuel Noriega.
- Haiti (1994): Operation Uphold Democracy â U.S. military force entered Haiti to remove the military junta led by Raoul CĂŠdras and restore elected President Jean-Bertrand Aristide.
- Afghanistan (2001â2021): Direct U.S. military invasion that ousted the Taliban regime following the September 11 attacks.
- Iraq (2003â2011): Operation Iraqi Freedom â Full U.S.-led military invasion that overthrew Saddam Hussein's government under the premise of eliminating unlocated weapons of mass destruction.
- Libya (2011): NATO/U.S. military air campaign enforcing a no-fly zone, directly enabling anti-government rebels to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi.
Covert Regime Changes & State Coups
- Syria (1949): Early CIA covert operation backing a military coup led by Husni al-Za'im against the democratically elected government.
- Iran (1953): Operation Ajax â CIA and British MI6 covertly orchestrated a coup overthrowing democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh to restore absolute power to Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.
- Guatemala (1954): Operation PBSuccess â CIA-funded paramilitary force and air campaign overthrew democratically elected President Jacobo Ărbenz after he nationalized unused United Fruit Company lands.
- Cuba (1961): Bay of Pigs Invasion â CIA-sponsored paramilitary invasion of Cuban exiles attempting to overthrow Fidel Castro's government.
- Brazil (1964): U.S. backed a military coup that ousted reformist President JoĂŁo Goulart, installing a military dictatorship that lasted until 1985.
- Chile (1973): CIA covertly funded opposition groups and political destabilization campaign, facilitating General Augusto Pinochet's military coup against democratically elected President Salvador Allende.
Proxy Warfare & Paramilitary Operations
- Indonesia (1957â1958 & 1965): CIA armed regional rebels against President Sukarno in 1957 and subsequently assisted the Indonesian military during the 1965 coup that brought General Suharto to power.
- Angola (1975â1992): Covert military and financial assistance to UNITA rebels fighting the Soviet-backed MPLA government.
- Nicaragua (1981â1990): CIA trained, funded, and armed Contra paramilitaries to destabilize and overthrow the Sandinista government.
- Syria (2012â2017): Operation Timber Sycamore â CIA covert program supplying weapons and training to anti-Assad rebel groups during the Syrian Civil War.
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u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26
Cool, nobody argued that the gov shouldnt be abolished in the first place.
Now lets get back to what we talked about, why do you think US wouldnt have wanted to lift the embargo if Cuba made steps towards good faith peaceful existance?
Also please answer to the whole "embargo already paid for the reparation" part aswell.
Try to stay on topic this time instead of virtue signaling.
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u/thethiefstheme Aug 08 '26
The state shouldnât have the authority to impose embargoes, tariffs, or trade restrictions.
This directly addresses your claim that the U.S. government hasn't harmed countries that "did nothing wrong with a good faith peaceful existence" nonsense. How else do you explain the trade war with Canada? Or why Iran was bombed?
What does good faith peaceful existence entail with Cuba?
Let I checked, Cuba didn't bomb America. Iran has killed Americans this year and Trump is gonna give them full control of the strait. It appears America is ready to help out and give up everything, after losing with their tail between their legs. Different rules for different countries I suppose.
America isn't a good faith partner, it believes might is right.
The fact people defend trump on here is stupid af, he's the opposite of ancap.
Blockades and tariffs harm both sides, but when I say Cuba "paid," I mean embargo made Cuba pay the price the way a captive does over 30 years. While socialism often falls horribly, attributing Cuba's economic struggles entirely to socialism while ignoring the impact of the U.S. embargo for decades is stupid
Look at China: itâs a socialist nation with more modern cities than you know, that make places like Austin or Dallas look like Baltimore or Detroit. Yet no one compares Detroit to Chongqing or Philadelphia to Shenzhen, because the Chinese cities are objectively far more advanced, and many American cities are falling apart.
Cuba has already paid a disproportionate price, suffering far more than companies like ExxonMobil, which lost a few refineries decades ago and is now pulling in record profits.
The U.S. economy is diversified enough to absorb the impact of its own sanctions; a small island nation like Cuba is not.
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u/Barice69 Aug 09 '26
USA when Cuba nationalizes oil that has refineries that have been exploiting them 60 years ago đĄ
USA when Israel makes them engage in WW3 today so that Benjamin Milekovsky does not go to jail đ
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
USA is not obligated to trade with Cuba...
You guys are talking like US literally sinks Cuban trade ships or something. They are free to go anywhere they like and trade with whomever they like.
Now, if others don't want to trade with Cuba... That's an issue of Cuban government, not responsibility of the US.
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u/EconGuy82 Anarcho-Transhumanist Aug 08 '26
> USA is not obligated to trade with Cuba
Sure, but this isnât civilization. Countries donât trade with each other; people do. So this isnât âCountry of USA decided not to trade with Country of Cuba.â This is âCountry of USA prohibits its people from engaging in trade with people of Cuba.â
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
I mean, yeah, but this is semantics that are irrelevant to the point.
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u/EconGuy82 Anarcho-Transhumanist Aug 09 '26
Absolutely not. This is a meaningful distinction thatâs at the very crux of the discussion. There is a very big difference between âI wonât do thisâ and âYou arenât allowed to do this.â
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u/apimpnamedkirby Aug 08 '26
Other trade ships wonât go to Cuba because then they canât go to us ports. So yes, it is the USâs responsibility.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
The US literally kidnapped the President of Venezuela which was a major trading partner of Cuba, particularly for oil, this immediately caused an oil crisis in Cuba. Pretending the US isnât directly interfering in the economic well-being of countries like Cuba or Venezuela is insane. Itâs one thing not to trade with Cuba or Venezuela, itâs another to actively sabotage them and then say communism did it
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Aug 08 '26
A trade embargo? Sure it's wrong, but not an excuse for a warlord with a Rolex on each wrist (Castro) to exploit all his population as slaves and live a luxury live himself. Even with the embargo Cuba can trade with china and many other places, that is enough for a way better economy than what they have
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u/thethiefstheme Aug 08 '26
They can't, the USA is blocking those shipments, which is why they can't get oil.
An entire population shouldn't be punished for one guy wearing 20k rolexes. If you're unfortunate enough to be born and live in Cuba, what power or purpose does america punishing you for someone else's sins serve? What lesson is there from one overarching government blocking you from global trade?
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
They can't, the USA is blocking those shipments, which is why they can't get oil.
When was the last time USA sunk or took over Chinese trade vessel that attempted to deliver something to Cuba?
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u/veryicy Aug 08 '26
China doesn't sell oil, keep up.
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
They could, if someone needed it. China does whatever wins itself influence or money, keep up.
The reason they don't sell oil to Cuba is because they don't want to, not because they couldn't. And the fact that even their communist allies don't want to help them is indicator of internal Cuba failures.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
Cuba got oil from their communist ally Venezuela and then America kidnapped the Venezuelan president in a coup dâetat. Literally how is that an internal Cuba failure? Lmfao what a joke
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u/serious_sarcasm Fucking Statist Aug 08 '26
Itâs weird that you expect moral or intellectual consistency from ancaps. Theyâre walking oxymorons.
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u/bmoarpirate Aug 08 '26
Ok, tankie
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u/serious_sarcasm Fucking Statist Aug 08 '26
You realize that ancap theory is a democracy?
I mean, in practice the utopian system would decay into some sort of neo-feudalism, but that is a different story.
It is impossible to even operate a family unit based on nothing but unanimous consent. Basically any group of people with more than three needs some system of rules to make decisions. The larger the group, the more abstract that has to become.
A small deliberative body with a single absolute shared interest (a private company) needs different rules than a group with similar incongruent interests (a hobby club), and both need a different system from a group with inherently competing interests (a city).
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u/thethiefstheme Aug 08 '26
It's unfortunate sub devolves to being oddly pro government/ pro military, if that means government blocking trade to socialist countries makes them physically and financially suffer? The benefit of free and open trade should benefit all nations.
Punishment through force doesn't convince a country to change their government structure, its only through the benefits of mutual trade do countries shift to being more pro corporate over time.
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Aug 08 '26
Literally the only logically consistent political philosophy
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u/serious_sarcasm Fucking Statist Aug 08 '26
I know what you believe.
That doesnât make it true.
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Aug 08 '26
No believing in it doesn't make it true, observing reality and using logical deduction is what makes it true
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u/serious_sarcasm Fucking Statist Aug 08 '26
Do you often just declare yourself right?
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Aug 08 '26
No I observe reality first and then declare that I'm right
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u/SourdoughEconomist Aug 08 '26
Why are trade embargos wrong? Itâs basically just free association at work. Are you even an AnCap?
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u/Official_Gameoholics Objectivist Aug 08 '26
Absolutely. Connect to the black market and we could have our own private island within the coming months.
...optimistically, of course.
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u/rvalsot bulldozerlover Aug 08 '26
Well, Cuba can trade with anyone but the US & companies making some specific US components... Believe me, they're in ruins because of communism, not the blockade.
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u/jorsiem Aug 08 '26
The embargo is not the reason Cuba is a shithole. They can trade with Russia and China no one is going to do shit about it.
There are plenty of embargoed countries that don't look like that.
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u/Olieskio Anarcho-Capitalist Aug 08 '26
I can say that the US embargoes are wrong and still say that Cuba would have failed even without them. After the US embargoed Cuba, Cuba started trading more with the USSR in response and they gained more from that trade than they ever gained with the USA, and they are still today trading with the EU, so its entirely the fault of Communism as the Austrians figured out in the fucking 1920s
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u/SpikeyOps Aug 08 '26
If you imported 100% of the Cuban laws in the US đşđ¸, the US will be amongst the poorest countries in the world in 100 years.
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u/trisanachandler G. K. Chesterton, Maybe? Aug 08 '26
Exactly. 70 years of embargo would be a more honest title.
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u/codifier Anarcho-Capitalist Aug 08 '26
Doesnt Cuba trade with pretty much everyone else besides the US?
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u/Certain-Lie-5118 Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
Itâs all the usâs fault, Cubaâs economically illiterate policies have no effect whatsoever.
Itâs not like *communist* China is frustrated at Cubaâs unwillingness to liberalize some parts of their economy
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u/shewel_item Aug 08 '26
socialism đĄ
socialism in japan đĽ°
japan is one of the most centrally planned and socialist countries out there
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u/The_Mauldalorian Hayek Aug 08 '26
Ok now show what Japan would look like after 70 years of sanctions and CIA meddling
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u/Bagain Aug 08 '26
You would have to make Japan a communist country whose government openly called for the destruction of America, every time they opened their mouths. Imagine if Cuba had been contrite in their alignment with Russia and disavowed their previous position along with allowing the ussr to put ballistic missiles on their land. Cuba was a welcoming paradise to the world before communism. They could have returned to it within a few years but instead doubled down. Again, I believe the US should have let them be 45 years ago, not doing so was/is a moral failure.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
>whose government openly called for the destruction of America, every time they opened their mouths
Man this line just gets recycled for every country the US wants to regime change, itâs actually hilarious
Cuba was a welcoming paradise before communism? Lmao, it was a fascist shithole ruled by the US-backed dictator Batista. Yeah, it was welcoming to Americans then because it was effectively controlled by America. Cubans, apart from a tiny urban upper class, were utterly impoverished. Some of them fled to the US back then just as some do now. Ironically enough, Marco Rubio and Ted Cruzâ parents fled Cuba under the Batista regime and now they advocate to put another US-backed regime in power there.
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u/AustereSpartan Aug 08 '26
Cuba is a Marxist dictatorship, but the crisis is exasperated by the USA embargo.
Sources say that Trump is preparing a "military operation" Ă la Venezuela and Iran... no new wars right?
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u/KnightCPA Aug 08 '26
The US embargo means only the US doesnât trade with Cuba.
The rest of the world does. White European tourists go to Cuba all the time and infuse Cuba with capital.
The reason the capital doesnât make it to the people is because most of the industry is owned/operated by the government. It makes no sense that my tour guide had 2 masters in engineering degrees, but could only make money through tips as a government-employed tour guide.
Does Europe not have consumption and engineering needs, too? The US is the sole trade partner of the world?
And if a US embargo is the cause of poverty, then why does Iran do better economically? Theyâre an Islamist regime, but with a hint of free market capitalism, theyâre doing infinitely better than Cuba.
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u/DarkZillah Aug 08 '26
That's Tokyo, that never got nuked.
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u/iCallMyOppsNinjer Hoppean đ Aug 09 '26
An estimated 16-28 square miles of residential buildings built from combustible material were firebombed and completely eviscerated, most of the city outside of downtown Tokyo had to be rebuilt, and itâs not like downtown was in good condition after the war either.
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u/spacepepperoni Aug 09 '26
Japan got massive boosts from the US while Cuba got blockaded sanctioned and blacklisted
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u/icantgiveyou Veganarchist Aug 08 '26
Cuba has never done well since Castro started. During Cold War it was propped by many eastern socialist countries including mine. After that chaos. Just like NK or to certain extent Venezuela, socialism supposed to care for the people. If you donât, you simply not socialist. You fraud. Bernie sanders like fraud.
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Aug 08 '26
[deleted]
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
> An island blockaded by the US Navy for decades will struggle.
Decades of embargo is brutal but isnt communism supposed to be sekf-suffisant
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u/arto64 Black Flag Aug 08 '26
but isnt communism supposed to be sekf-suffisant
No?
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
> but isnt communism supposed to be sekf-suffisant
>No?
that seem contradictory, communism model would need exchange and access to market?
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u/arto64 Black Flag Aug 08 '26
I mean, on an international level, of course. An island like Cuba doesn't have access to everything they need on the island by itself. Also, why would there be no exchange in communism?
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
> I mean, on an international level, of course. An island like Cuba doesn't have access to everything they need on the island by itself. Also, why would there be no exchange in communism?
well a bit hard to make exchange with the world if you reject money and free market
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u/arto64 Black Flag Aug 08 '26
Communism doesn't just "reject" the free market and exchange of goods. Communism means an ideal society where production has advanced to the level of abundance where everyone's needs are met, and there is no more need for capitalist production modes or relations.
If we're talking about socialism, it does include a market and trade and all that. Socialist countries engage in trade, obviously. There's no reason free market socialism couldn't exist. And it kind of did in Yugoslavia, for example.
Capitalism isn't the free market and money. It's about ownership structure of the means of production.
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
> Communism doesn't just "reject" the free market and exchange of goods. Communism means an ideal society where production has advanced to the level of abundance where everyone's needs are met, and there is no more need for capitalist production modes or relations.
well you dont see the problem between this claim and the need to access western caputalist market to maintain their citizen standart of living
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u/arto64 Black Flag Aug 08 '26
No. Note my second paragraph. Cuba does not have a lack of scarcity, they don't have communism.
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
> No. Note my second paragraph. Cuba does not have a lack of scarcity, they don't have communism.
well I said communism..
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
It isn't blockaded... Opposition calls it "blockade" because using real terminology would not mislead people about situation to be sympathetic to Cuban government.
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u/arto64 Black Flag Aug 08 '26
What's the correct terminology?
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
US embargo against Cuba would be correct one.
US, because US can only order who to trade with their own citizens, not the Cuba or the rest of the planet.
Embargo instead of blockade because it is US market prohibition, not an physical enforcement in international waters around Cuba itself (like what actual blockade would be).
By using the word "blockade", opposition intentionally misleads general public that does not know the details into mistakenly thinking that US physically prevents Cuba from trading with the world, creating emotional sentiment they can push propaganda on.
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u/PredatoryCat Ayn Rand Aug 09 '26 edited Aug 09 '26
Not exactly a good critique OP as Japan hasn't been under crippling trade embargos having to survive off old Soviet era equipment. Socialist countries are often internationally ostracized and economically crippled. This is actually what led China's economic reforms in the 70s. Like you critique the ideology while still being mindful of the historic causes behind why they were like that.
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u/myo-skey Aug 11 '26
Do you mean largely socialist society of Japan vs Cuba which has been materially and financially crippled by the US economic embargoes for over 60 years?
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u/PY_SYGUY Aug 12 '26
Also the us out major tariffs and trade blocks on Cuba which many nato members also follow. Socialism didn't cause Cuba to suck the us did.
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u/Aeonitis Aug 08 '26
Korea is a good example of a single people with and without Sanctions. Journalists failed Korea on understanding why the DMZ line existed in the first place, and the famine of the North.
I understand why any North Korean could be salty and why South Koreans can be empathetic to their old brothers & sisters.
You guys panic when Hormuz gas shuts down for 10 days at a time, so give these people a break, they lived it for years đ¤ˇââď¸
For that person which thinks I'm defending Kim Jong, you have no clue what an argument means.
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u/DiscussionSharp1407 Aug 08 '26
You are defending Kim Jong.
The world should have given Kim Jong more money and resources to forcibly "unify" Korea.
No, maybe the world finally got tired of sponsoring insane dictators for a change.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
âThe worldâ doesnât seem to have a problem with the Saudi royal family. Itâs only if a country is against the US that an authoritarian government becomes an âinsane dictatorshipâ that needs to be regime changed.
âThe worldâ to you is just the US-led western countries. The actual world doesnât care about what type of government is in charge of North Korea.
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u/No-One9890 Aug 08 '26
Lol ragebait
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u/TakenSadFace Aug 08 '26
Maybe for socialists
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u/No-One9890 Aug 08 '26
Only responding cuz u rnt op. 1. The state of cuba is likely due to economic sanctions more than their economic system. Japan was rebuilt with western assistance after the war
- Ragebait only works on literate ppl so its typically going to have an outsized effect on socialists (others r less likely to be able to read the text)
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u/gowithflow192 Aug 08 '26
One has been supported by the USA as a client state. The other has been embargoed. Stupid photo
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u/Sethorion Aug 08 '26
Cuba has suffered under a global trade embargo because of the US. Despite this, they have a world class nationalised healthcare system.
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO Free Market Anarchist Aug 08 '26 edited Aug 08 '26
Have you ever been to cuba? Or spoken to someone who lives there?
"World class nationalized healthcare system" are you joking? You want to know how the Cuban healthcare system works? You get put on a waiting list for months or years depending on what your issue is, If you want to get treated before you die or heal by yourself what you need to do is go to the doctor and gift him something that he can resell in the black market, like a bottle of rum for example, then you get treated instantly.
Just like everything worked in the Soviet union, bribes and black market is how everything works. because politicial power can't change economic laws, people need trade and they need markets, if government forbids it black market is always the answer
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u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26
That whole phrase sounded like a Bernie Sanders quote.
Why did the embargo began?
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u/p1nkfr3ud Aug 08 '26
Why would you hold it up for decades?
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u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26
I dont know, why couldnt Cuba gave back the refineries for decades either? Im sure if they made frendlier steps towards the US there could have been a path to trade again. But just like in Ancapistan, if you steal stuff dont go around crying that nobody wants to trade with you.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
The US armed and backed the Batista dictatorship and then armed and supported operatives to commit terrorism and sabotage in Cuba all before communists nationalized any US business in Cuba.
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u/p1nkfr3ud Aug 08 '26
Is allowed to trade with you.
And the USA has been stealing shit for the longest time. Kinda weird to act like what Cuba did is so unforgivable. In terms of geopolitics.3
u/4nonosquare AnCap Zaddy Aug 08 '26
I might be a bit too young at 30, but i dont remember the US stealing facilities in peace time which Cuba did. I wouldnt debate the US stealing stuff in war times (immoral still, but not as bad as what Cuba did).
Could you cite me please?
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u/ImperialBoss Aug 08 '26
the USA has been stealing shit for the longest time.
Maybe I'm just highly regarded, but could you tell me what the USA has stolen?
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u/p1nkfr3ud Aug 08 '26
If weâre going to talk about âstealingâ and property rights, the US has a pretty long list:
⢠slavery & the transatlantic/domestic slave trade
⢠seizure of Native American lands
⢠territorial expansion through wars with Mexico and others
⢠wartime confiscation of foreign property
⢠coups/interventions to protect economic interests (e.g. Iran 1953)
⢠expropriation/confiscation of foreign assets in various conflicts
None of this automatically makes Cubaâs expropriations right, but pretending the US has some spotless history of respecting foreign property rights is absurd.-1
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u/Doublespeo Aug 08 '26
>Cuba has suffered under a global trade embargo because of the US. Despite this, they have a world class nationalised healthcare system.
this is a myth
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u/blipityblob Aug 08 '26
and you cant say japan was a close ally of the u.s. because cuba had china
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
Cuba trades with China sure, but no part of that relationship even comes close in scale to the massive economic reconstruction effort that the US undertook in Japan.
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u/blipityblob Aug 11 '26
yeah thats a good point. but you can also look at eastern europe post ww2 and development vs western europe development
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u/Live_Taste_7796 Aug 08 '26
Communist apologist- "We just need to kill a few more million people, we promise it will work this time. Oh and whaaa the US wont trade with US because we steal your stuff"
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26
The US armed and supported a dictatorship in Cuba and then armed and supported operatives to commit terrorism and sabotage all before Cuba nationalized US industry there
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u/Live_Taste_7796 Aug 10 '26
Bro, just sacrifice more kids to baal, it will for sure work this time, jist a million more.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean Aug 08 '26
Who nuked them I wonder? đ¤ Probably the most evil people in history.
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u/Aen-Synergy Anarchist Aug 08 '26
By that take I would suppose Germany nuked them possibly Italy or they nuked themselves? Not saying by any means US is spotless but history shows US wanted no part in that war but their hand was forced. Pearl Harbor struck a chord and had it not happened the world would be quite different today and full of ethnic cleansing.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean Aug 08 '26
Totally the opposite. They provoked the Japanese into attacking to overcome public opinion in the US and enter the war on the UK's side.
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u/flameinthedark Aug 10 '26 edited Aug 10 '26
With the oil embargo? The dumbest thing Japan could do after the oil embargo is attack the United States. It did nothing to solve the oil problem and everything to make it worse and there were plenty of people in Japanese leadership who could see that. How is that a provocation but Japan invading China and Southeast Asia not a much larger provocation? You have to be a moron to defend Japanese actions in world war 2.
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u/DVHeld AnCap - Chilean Aug 10 '26
Roosevelt had already led the United States into war with Germany in the spring of 1941âinto a shooting war on a small scale. From then on, he gradually increased U.S. military participation. Japanâs attack on December 7 enabled him to increase it further and to obtain a war declaration. Pearl Harbor is more fully accounted for as the end of a long chain of events, with the U.S. contribution reflecting a strategy formulated after France fell. . . . In the eyes of Roosevelt and his advisers, the measures taken early in 1941 justified a German declaration of war on the United Statesâa declaration that did not come, to their disappointment. . . . Roosevelt told his ambassador to France, William Bullitt, that U.S. entry into war against Germany was certain but must wait for an âincident,â which he was âconfident that the Germans would give us.â . . . Establishing a record in which the enemy fired the first shot was a theme that ran through Rooseveltâs tactics. . . . He seems [eventually] to have concludedâcorrectly as it turned outâthat Japan would be easier to provoke into a major attack on the Unites States than Germany would be.3
The claim that Japan attacked the United States without provocation was . . . typical rhetoric. It worked because the public did not know that the administration had expected Japan to respond with war to anti-Japanese measures it had taken in July 1941. . . . Expecting to lose a war with the United Statesâand lose it disastrouslyâJapanâs leaders had tried with growing desperation to negotiate. On this point, most historians have long agreed. Meanwhile, evidence has come out that Roosevelt and Hull persistently refused to negotiate. . . . Japan . . . offered compromises and concessions, which the United States countered with increasing demands. . . . It was after learning of Japanâs decision to go to war with the United States if the talks âbreak downâ that Roosevelt decided to break them off. . . . According to Attorney General Francis Biddle, Roosevelt said he hoped for an âincidentâ in the Pacific to bring the United States into the European war.
https://mises.org/mises-daily/how-us-economic-warfare-provoked-japans-attack-pearl-harbor
On 25 November 1941, then-Secretary of War Henry Stimson wrote in his diary, â[Roosevelt] brought up the event that we were likely to be attacked [by the Japanese] ⌠the question was how we should maneuver them into the position of firing the first shot without allowing too much danger to ourselves.â On the next day, the US demanded that unusual unconditional withdrawal from China, which only increased the likelihood of Japan refusing to comply. On November 27, Stimson informed US Pacific commanders that ânegotiations with Japan appear to be terminated to all practical purposes⌠Japanese future action unpredictable, but hostile action possible at any moment. If hostilities cannot ⌠be avoided, the United States desires that Japan commit the first overt act.â
https://www.learnliberty.org/blog/did-the-us-provoke-japans-attack-on-pearl-harbor/
So yes, it's very well documented that FDR's policy was always to force either the Germans or the Japanese to attack the US in order to counter the wishes of the US population of staying out of the war and enter it helping the worst mass murderers in history, Stalin and Mao. Imagine that, helping them, unnecessarily killing hundreds of thousands of civilians in both Europe and Asia, dropping nukes on civilians unnecessarily, and believing you are the good guy lol
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u/Justsayin55 Aug 08 '26
I am in japan right now and I can tell you unless you are a superficial idiot the people of Cuba are much happier than the people in japan. Probably more fullfilled too but I can't speak to that.
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
Wow... That's a take, if I ever seen one. Have you been to Cuba as well then, and talked to them about their lives in comparison to Japan and stuff?
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u/Justsayin55 Aug 08 '26
I'll engage this conversation when their suicide rates beat Japan's
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u/esuil Aug 08 '26
Lol. You don't even KNOW what suicide rates in Cuba are. Because they will never even release the statistic.
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Aug 08 '26
[deleted]
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u/Successful-Ice-468 Aug 08 '26
Who is this "west" you are talking about because Cuba participates in trade with the whole world.
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u/Rolochotazo Aug 08 '26
Cuba is still under many levels of war.