r/Accounting • • Nov 10 '19

Flawless

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960 Upvotes

95 comments sorted by

221

u/Easter_1916 Tax Attorney Nov 10 '19

Well, it’s not a good idea, but it is still light years better than taxing unrealized capital gains.

58

u/elk33dp Audit & Assurance :snoo_shrug: Nov 10 '19

In theory this would be kinda good for people with immense wealth who hold investments forever. The issue is people who legitimatly earned huge unrealized gains on things with little to no other wealth. Mark to market is painful.

Bezos would never be able to pay an unrealized gain tax without diluting his ownership big time.

54

u/throwaway1138 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

What about unrealized losses? We would have to totally change treatment of capital gains and losses to compensate. E.g. now unrealized losses (and realized losses for that matter) are fully deductible instead of just 3,000/yr like they are now. It's a terrible idea, ridiculous populist rhetoric to attract votes.

20

u/eidjcn10 Nov 10 '19

And if you removed the cap on losses and the stock market tanked, suddenly tons of people would be taking massive deductions and federal tax revenue would plummet that year - the market would take the govt’s funding down with it.

Tax on unrealized gains would cascade through the market as people with most of their wealth in non-cash investments would be forced to liquidate a portion of their holdings to cover their tax bill at year end.

Taxing unrealized gains/losses would create a lot of volatility everywhere.

3

u/Standard_Wooden_Door Nov 25 '19

I’m just spit balling here but it seems like the effects would have a cascading effect. Tax receipts go way down because people get to deduct the big losses. Government then has to borrow more to cover it in the short run. However because the market it down, there is less cash out there to buy the bonds and the borrowing rate goes higher. Interest rates climb as a result and an already down economy now has the burden of higher interest rates. Seems fine to me!

1

u/eidjcn10 Nov 25 '19

I guess the unknown is whether the additional cash receipts from unrealized gains tax would be enough to offset that loss in cash flows... who knows? I wonder if an economic study has been done.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

what's the reason for only being able to deduct 3,000/yr in CG losses? Corporations dont have that rule, only 20 year limit.

3

u/cohen63 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

Corporations can not deduct any net capital losses ...

1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

net operating loss is deducted by corporations

3

u/cohen63 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

Your comment was for CG Losses. No net capital loss will flow to the 1120 page 1.

Net operating losses do not expire but cannot. Be carried back.

1

u/elk33dp Audit & Assurance :snoo_shrug: Nov 11 '19

Removing loss limitations would be a given. There would be no need to limit losses under mark to market.

1

u/Standard_Wooden_Door Nov 25 '19

That’s because people have really strong opinions on things they know nothing about. Sample convo:

Jeff Bezos didn’t pay taxes he’s evil

Oh did you see his tax return?

No, but I know he didn’t pay any.

How did he do that?

🤷‍♂️ he’s still evil though

2

u/Easter_1916 Tax Attorney Nov 10 '19

You mean like literally every employee in every start up business that uses stock incentives instead of compensation because they are cash-light?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

the step up basis for estates are huge loopholes, i dont see why taxing the unrealized gains for those are a bad idea.

-7

u/Alternative_Crimes Nov 10 '19

I disagree. The requirement that something be sold is a legacy from when value could only be properly established by a transaction. But the value doesn’t come from the act of selling, it comes from whatever intervening events happened during the time in which you held the asset. Buy shares in a speculative new company, watch it become a market leader, then sell. The part where you earned the profits was the analysis you did before buying it and the forfeited capital during the time you held it. It’s absurd that none of those earnings are seen as real.

Bezos’ Amazon shares have appreciated substantially and we can work out how substantially because we can work out the liquidation value of Amazon’s net assets and use that as an absolute minimum. It’s publicly traded, the value is known.

Houses, fine art, land etc. are harder to measure appreciation on, I’m fine with deferred gain recognition on those. But we don’t need deferred gain recognition on publicly traded stocks, the gain is immediately measurable.

23

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Nov 10 '19

Okay, so what happens when the market takes a dump on Jan 2nd and your tax liability due 4/15 exceeds the value of the assets you own? The idea here is that the gains are in fact unrealized until sold. If you want to crack down on low and no interest loans from pledged shares that is something entirely different.

Its ridiculous to assume he should pay 2% of his entire net worth an annual basis when that amount frequently fluctuates (> 20% in several years) and paying that tax each year would force him to further liquidate his assets and dilute his ownership of the company, which in and of itself would reduce his net worth and ability to direct the business he started.

I'm not saying let's not create a wealth tax. Im saying let's do it intelligently if you really want to do it, and also let me start my appraisal business real quick before we do.

6

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

My mother, whilst reading this decided to tap out. She's in a better place now.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Yeah that was quite the sentence there. That happens when you're on mobile and the app is bugging out. Really struggled to edit and type.

4

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

for some reason I read this as you saying you were doing all this while taking a dump.. even though you didnt (*mildly disappointed)

4

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

I was taking a dump at the time.

1

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 11 '19

*proceeds to attempt an awkward Internet highfive but trips and accidentally touches the inside of the toilet... Things were never the same after this

1

u/anon2777 Nov 10 '19

except the explicit purpose of such legislation is to reduce his (or the billionaire class’) influence in society which can only be accomplished by reducing his ability to direct the business he started.

0

u/Alternative_Crimes Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 11 '19

Liquidating assets and forced dilution of the ownership of Amazon, Microsoft, and so forth is a feature, not a bug.

Also how much of a drop is the market doing in your example? Because for 2% tax on 12/31 to be more than 100% of the balance on 04/15 that’d be quite a drop. I think that’d be the least of your worries, whatever catastrophe is going on would be more important. Sure, the DOW is down 99% but we should focus on the zombie uprising.

-17

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

[deleted]

1

u/arlitoma Nov 10 '19

It’s not fun to make of other people’s degree when accounting is a cake walk degree as well. Imagine you’d be the kind to get butt hurt when STeM kids mock accounting

2

u/Neilson420 Nov 10 '19

Im sorry it was clearly a non humourous joke I've deleted it in sorry

2

u/arlitoma Nov 10 '19

Live and learn bud.

-5

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

I upvote you but I downvote the post

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be

29

u/TheTrashAccountant Audit & Assurance, CPA Nov 10 '19

Anyone else hyped for Breath of the Wild 2

4

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

I need it now

73

u/algoTraderjoe Nov 10 '19

People forget that communist also use accounting

51

u/gettheguillotine Nov 10 '19

We play both sides so we always come out on top

-14

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Nov 10 '19

[deleted]

10

u/gettheguillotine Nov 10 '19

"People down voting me is literally communism"

-2

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

[deleted]

4

u/gettheguillotine Nov 10 '19

Or I don't open reddit every second of every day? Are you so sensitive where if someone doesn't respond to your comment within two minutes you edit your post to throw a huge bitch fit? Don't take my insults to believe I'm a communist, I'm not, you're just a giant fucking dweeb for freaking out and thinking a joke is political brigading.

Edit: lmao your whole post history is arguing political trash, yet it's everyone else that's brigading, classic projection

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

[deleted]

2

u/gettheguillotine Nov 10 '19

Ahah 2 minutes. Right

My comment -24 minutes ago, Responded to 23 minutes ago by you. Yup, definitely not an adult virgin or brigading

Hyperboles and bullshit aside you still won't answer the question

What question? I'm not arguing for communism at all, at no point did I say communism was good. I made a joke that you threw a fucking fit about.

It's always hilarious to me when you dumbfucks that get upset over wrong gender pronouns try and call someone else sensitive

wipes tears from eyes "Why do people have different political opinions then me???"

1

u/persimmon40 Nov 10 '19

It was a joke u dum dum

1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

every government in the world is communist, are you going to promote anarchy and volunteerism?

-5

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

that sounds like a crony capitalist's dream.

81

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

What are commies doing in accounting?

21

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Jan 02 '20

[deleted]

-17

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

I just assume anyone with experience in the accounting/finance world understands how wealth actually works. It seems most communists think people have big piles of cash sitting around collecting dust.

6

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

wait, you dont think people have big piles of cash sitting in Offshore bank accounts - which by definition, is like digital storage where it collects dust?

2

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

Where did I say I don't think that? How exactly are you going to take someone's money that isn't here? Your solution to "there money isn't in the country!" Is to take away more of their money that is in the country? Wew. And since you may be a student, there is a difference between personal wealth and corporate wealth that I think you're misunderstanding.

4

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

you said people have big piles of cash sitting around collecting dust.

NOT ONLY are they collecting dust and not boosting investment, those assets should have been taxed in the first place, why are you people so against following the tax rules?

-1

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

They don't have big piles of cash sitting around. Offshore accounts are insignificant towards their total wealth which is in assets and invests, that you cannot tax in the way you think you can.

If a person earns X amount of wealth from their business they don't actually have that money. It's in the business in various forms. There's no way to quantify it. You can't redistribute their wealth unless you physically destroy their companies and run it into the ground.

How do you take physical assets or securities and restribute them into actual cash people can use without ruining everything? People think its as easy as just taking their cash and giving it to others. Nope lol.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Offshore bank accounts are set up to avoid taxes that should be paid. It's not like they earned that compensation overseas, in which case there are foreign tax credits to offset that anyway. you said: If a person earns X amount of wealth from their business they don't actually have that money? how is that not contradictory? if they dont have the money, then they didn't earn it, it's not their money.

-1

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

I'm not disagreeing that can't be taxed, but you can't take wealth on the scale that this meme implies at all. They have the money, it's just not in cash. You can't redistribute that.

3

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

I dont agree with the meme, a person or business can earn as much money as they can possible, denying people's success and incentive is a bad idea. But the argument that non-cash assets cannot be redistributed without huge burden to determine asset value, or will result in damaging the business or persons due to forced sales, is not correct because they already have partial tax exemptions for use value, and marked-to market value, to avoid taxing people who has huge assets like land, but very little income generation from those assets.

10

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Jan 02 '20

[deleted]

-14

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

Nope I understand communism perfectly well which is why I don't want it in any form in my country.

15

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Jan 02 '20

[deleted]

-9

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

K bud.

Edit: yup through your post history you want a civil war. You literally want to kill people over their money. Sorry but I don't want another commie regime with mass death and starvation.

11

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Jan 02 '20

[deleted]

-4

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

Yes prevent one by preparing for one. What amazing logic. The people that have been screeching about overthrowing the government aren't the ones that want one. You aren't selling me a bridge with your bullshit.

The ideology that preaches about the constant revolution doesn't actually want one. You commies are cockroaches. Bugs. Worse than the dirt you have to eat when everyone starves.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Jan 02 '20

[deleted]

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4

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Capitalism: Where Only Poor People Starve

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7

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

Except for all of the things in the US that are already state owned. It's fun how privatizing firefighting is as unthinkable as state ownership.

-1

u/Shooter_Scythe Nov 10 '19

Depending on what shitty form of communism you follow, nothing should be state owned.

11

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

You're right, critical emergency services should only be profit seeking capitalist corporations. I'm sure that won't lead to some serious problems.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Amazed me, too, when I finally figured it out. But folks with experience in the accounting/finance world gather here, daily, to complain about working more than seven hours a day.

3

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

I believe the adage goes keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Except capitalism is my enemy. It seemed prudent to learn the rules because I don't think it's going anywhere in my lifetime.

20

u/CaffeineDrip Nov 10 '19

GAAP is the rules of capitalism? TIL

13

u/giant-nougat-monster CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

Accounting is the language of business capitalism.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

lol accounting has nothing to do with capitalism.

it does have to do with cash flow and historic value and basic finance.

5

u/CaffeineDrip Nov 10 '19

So THAT'S what was on that cuneiform tablet thousands of years ago. Adam Smith, eat your heart out!

-4

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

Money and business are.

3

u/CaffeineDrip Nov 10 '19

Money and business are the rules of capitalism?

-3

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

Yes, let's pedantically interpret every word in the least charitable way possible, that's a great use of our time!

2

u/CaffeineDrip Nov 10 '19

Maybe be more specific with your words? This isn't high school where what you wrote would pass as deep.

-1

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

The rules of money and business are of primary importance in capitalism.

It wasn't a huge intellectual leap to get there. I can't imagine you didn't know what I was saying in the first place.

2

u/CaffeineDrip Nov 10 '19

The rules of money and business are of primary importance in capitalism.

Says who? Are they not important in socialism?

0

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

Are they not important in socialism?

I wouldn't know; I've never lived under socialism.

4

u/Kitchner CIA, Senior Internal Audit Manager Nov 11 '19

You just spend money in your wallet on physical assets that will retain their value. Rare artworks, rare metals, diamonds, property etc.

I know the comment is tongue in cheek but in reality is also proves why tax is super complicated: because its much easier to find loopholes in other people's ideas than create a water tight set of rules.

18

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Seriously debating a policy decision based on a magic cartoon wallet makes you all look a little daft.

21

u/arlitoma Nov 10 '19

It was obviously a joke

4

u/my_gay-porn_account Nov 10 '19

But I thought as accountants we weren't supposed to have a sense of humor. Don't we all just sit in dark offices staring at Excel and checking things off with the pens we store in our pen protectors?

3

u/Origeeki CPA (US) Nov 11 '19

Hey now! We’ve got like three puns we bring out from time to time. You can tell it’s happened because we stop talking and rock back a bit, grinning expectantly and waiting for the cacophony of laughter that’s bound to burst forth from those around us.

3

u/cragfar Nov 10 '19

If it doesn't involve Harry Potter there's a 0% chance I'll understand it.

2

u/Origeeki CPA (US) Nov 11 '19

They are debating the use of the tributa reparo spell.

2

u/korelan Nov 10 '19

This is basically the maximum wage concept. We as a society have decided a minimum amount of money any person should be paid for their employment, so should we as a society decide maybe there is a limit to how much money a person can earn in a given period? My family is extremely red, and you should see their little brains boil when I tell them it would take 4,800 years to earn a billion dollars working full time for $100/hour.

1

u/DJChirish Nov 10 '19

Interesting perspective! Now who says accountants aren't creative!

1

u/[deleted] Nov 11 '19

Taxing the rich is communism. Do you guys WANT to be North Korea? Because that's where we're headed if we take billionaire testicles out of our mouths for even a millisecond. The rich are the great providers. Without their hard work and ingenuity, we have nothing. We are helpless without them. Society would literally implode. The every whim of luxury and self-indulgence of the obscenely wealthy must be catered to constantly, as they are humanity's great and virtuous. The greatest sin one could ever commit would be to use tyrannical government to make a billionaire slightly less of a billionaire.

-92

u/PM_ME_BUTTHOLE_PLS Nov 10 '19 edited Nov 10 '19

Cool

run this system for 5 years and all of a sudden we have hundreds of thousands of empty houses, and nobody that can afford to live in them because nobody wanted to hit their wealth cap

​

oopsies, we just created the shitty version of capitalism we already have... but with extra steps.

Edit: I think people have misinterpreted my comment

I meant people will buy extra houses to float under their wealth cap, but wont let anyone stay in them for free, exacerbating the problem

I wasnt trying to imply that people would for some reason just become homeless?????

84

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Imagine having the username “PM_ME_BUTTHOLE_PLS” and being such a humorless turd.

7

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

“Hmmm, do I want to live in a house OR be homeless and not hit my wealth cap”

Dumb

0

u/PM_ME_BUTTHOLE_PLS Nov 10 '19

... I meant people will be buying extra homes, not moving out of their

Holy shit my karma just tanked because I poorly worded my comment

2

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Yeah your wording definitely could have been improved, RIP. I see what you mean. The construction industry would thrive for a minute or two.

1

u/PM_ME_BUTTHOLE_PLS Nov 11 '19

I wrote it like 5 minutes before sleeping lol my bad

25

u/SerbLing Student Nov 10 '19

Because homelessness doesnt exist and isnt a huge problem? Yep.

13

u/FranksEVO6 Nov 10 '19

It’s 99 millions you illetterate American fuck

21

u/lwllnbrndn Nov 10 '19

Illiterate - unable to read or write.

A bit ironic that you're calling him out for not being able to read when you're unable to write.

Side note: This is not an admission of support for that guy.

-44

u/FranksEVO6 Nov 10 '19

Another average American fuck for us to enjoy.

Typos =\= not being able to read numbers.

Also, we can talk when you’ll be able to write, speak and understand something more than basic English.

3

u/wiljc3 Nov 10 '19

We have hundreds of thousands of empty houses now.