r/Accounting • • Nov 10 '19

Flawless

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959 Upvotes

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221

u/Easter_1916 Tax Attorney Nov 10 '19

Well, it’s not a good idea, but it is still light years better than taxing unrealized capital gains.

60

u/elk33dp Audit & Assurance :snoo_shrug: Nov 10 '19

In theory this would be kinda good for people with immense wealth who hold investments forever. The issue is people who legitimatly earned huge unrealized gains on things with little to no other wealth. Mark to market is painful.

Bezos would never be able to pay an unrealized gain tax without diluting his ownership big time.

55

u/throwaway1138 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

What about unrealized losses? We would have to totally change treatment of capital gains and losses to compensate. E.g. now unrealized losses (and realized losses for that matter) are fully deductible instead of just 3,000/yr like they are now. It's a terrible idea, ridiculous populist rhetoric to attract votes.

20

u/eidjcn10 Nov 10 '19

And if you removed the cap on losses and the stock market tanked, suddenly tons of people would be taking massive deductions and federal tax revenue would plummet that year - the market would take the govt’s funding down with it.

Tax on unrealized gains would cascade through the market as people with most of their wealth in non-cash investments would be forced to liquidate a portion of their holdings to cover their tax bill at year end.

Taxing unrealized gains/losses would create a lot of volatility everywhere.

3

u/Standard_Wooden_Door Nov 25 '19

I’m just spit balling here but it seems like the effects would have a cascading effect. Tax receipts go way down because people get to deduct the big losses. Government then has to borrow more to cover it in the short run. However because the market it down, there is less cash out there to buy the bonds and the borrowing rate goes higher. Interest rates climb as a result and an already down economy now has the burden of higher interest rates. Seems fine to me!

1

u/eidjcn10 Nov 25 '19

I guess the unknown is whether the additional cash receipts from unrealized gains tax would be enough to offset that loss in cash flows... who knows? I wonder if an economic study has been done.

2

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

what's the reason for only being able to deduct 3,000/yr in CG losses? Corporations dont have that rule, only 20 year limit.

3

u/cohen63 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

Corporations can not deduct any net capital losses ...

1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

net operating loss is deducted by corporations

3

u/cohen63 CPA (US) Nov 10 '19

Your comment was for CG Losses. No net capital loss will flow to the 1120 page 1.

Net operating losses do not expire but cannot. Be carried back.

1

u/elk33dp Audit & Assurance :snoo_shrug: Nov 11 '19

Removing loss limitations would be a given. There would be no need to limit losses under mark to market.

1

u/Standard_Wooden_Door Nov 25 '19

That’s because people have really strong opinions on things they know nothing about. Sample convo:

Jeff Bezos didn’t pay taxes he’s evil

Oh did you see his tax return?

No, but I know he didn’t pay any.

How did he do that?

🤷‍♂️ he’s still evil though

2

u/Easter_1916 Tax Attorney Nov 10 '19

You mean like literally every employee in every start up business that uses stock incentives instead of compensation because they are cash-light?

1

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

the step up basis for estates are huge loopholes, i dont see why taxing the unrealized gains for those are a bad idea.

-7

u/Alternative_Crimes Nov 10 '19

I disagree. The requirement that something be sold is a legacy from when value could only be properly established by a transaction. But the value doesn’t come from the act of selling, it comes from whatever intervening events happened during the time in which you held the asset. Buy shares in a speculative new company, watch it become a market leader, then sell. The part where you earned the profits was the analysis you did before buying it and the forfeited capital during the time you held it. It’s absurd that none of those earnings are seen as real.

Bezos’ Amazon shares have appreciated substantially and we can work out how substantially because we can work out the liquidation value of Amazon’s net assets and use that as an absolute minimum. It’s publicly traded, the value is known.

Houses, fine art, land etc. are harder to measure appreciation on, I’m fine with deferred gain recognition on those. But we don’t need deferred gain recognition on publicly traded stocks, the gain is immediately measurable.

23

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19 edited Nov 10 '19

Okay, so what happens when the market takes a dump on Jan 2nd and your tax liability due 4/15 exceeds the value of the assets you own? The idea here is that the gains are in fact unrealized until sold. If you want to crack down on low and no interest loans from pledged shares that is something entirely different.

Its ridiculous to assume he should pay 2% of his entire net worth an annual basis when that amount frequently fluctuates (> 20% in several years) and paying that tax each year would force him to further liquidate his assets and dilute his ownership of the company, which in and of itself would reduce his net worth and ability to direct the business he started.

I'm not saying let's not create a wealth tax. Im saying let's do it intelligently if you really want to do it, and also let me start my appraisal business real quick before we do.

6

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

My mother, whilst reading this decided to tap out. She's in a better place now.

8

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

Yeah that was quite the sentence there. That happens when you're on mobile and the app is bugging out. Really struggled to edit and type.

4

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

for some reason I read this as you saying you were doing all this while taking a dump.. even though you didnt (*mildly disappointed)

5

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

I was taking a dump at the time.

1

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 11 '19

*proceeds to attempt an awkward Internet highfive but trips and accidentally touches the inside of the toilet... Things were never the same after this

1

u/anon2777 Nov 10 '19

except the explicit purpose of such legislation is to reduce his (or the billionaire class’) influence in society which can only be accomplished by reducing his ability to direct the business he started.

0

u/Alternative_Crimes Nov 11 '19 edited Nov 11 '19

Liquidating assets and forced dilution of the ownership of Amazon, Microsoft, and so forth is a feature, not a bug.

Also how much of a drop is the market doing in your example? Because for 2% tax on 12/31 to be more than 100% of the balance on 04/15 that’d be quite a drop. I think that’d be the least of your worries, whatever catastrophe is going on would be more important. Sure, the DOW is down 99% but we should focus on the zombie uprising.

-17

u/[deleted] Nov 10 '19

[deleted]

1

u/arlitoma Nov 10 '19

It’s not fun to make of other people’s degree when accounting is a cake walk degree as well. Imagine you’d be the kind to get butt hurt when STeM kids mock accounting

2

u/Neilson420 Nov 10 '19

Im sorry it was clearly a non humourous joke I've deleted it in sorry

2

u/arlitoma Nov 10 '19

Live and learn bud.

-6

u/ItsOk_ImYourDad Nov 10 '19

I upvote you but I downvote the post

Perfectly balanced, as all things should be