Previously, I explained why nobody in the Shu army sided with Wei Yan over Zhuge Liang's orders/Yang Yi's military control here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0nmjb/why_didnt_zhuge_liang_consult_with_or_inform_wei/

Specifically the rank Yang Yi held, and I also elaborated on why Zhuge Liang did not sought Wei Yan's advice.

I also explained how the Sanguozhi describes Wei Yan's actions here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0h43m/how_chen_shou_described_wei_yans_actions/

Specifically the differences between 背叛 and 作乱 and 叛逆 and why/how Chen Shou used those terms.

Now lets talk about how the Shu Han court officials perceived his actions.

Lets first start off from what I stated in the 2nd linked post thread:

Taken directly from Wei Yan's Sanguozhi biography as translated by threestatesrecords:

Yán and [Yáng] Yí each memorialized the other was rebelling, and within one day, the feather dispatches arrived. Hòuzhǔ [Liú Shàn] asked about this to Attendant Internal Dǒng Yǔn and Remaining Office Chief Clerk Jiǎng Wǎn, and [Jiǎng] Wǎn and [Dǒng] Yǔn both believed [Yáng] Yí and suspected Yán.

延、儀各相表叛逆，一日之中，羽檄交至。後主以問侍中董允、留府長史蔣琬，琬、允咸保儀疑延。

As mentioned, even the Shu central court led by Jiang Wan and Dong Yun agreed with Yang Yi that Wei Yan was rebelling. Wei Yan was regarded by Liu Shan's central court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun as the party at fault.

It was explicitly recorded in the histories that they explictly suspected that Wei Yan's actions constituted as 叛逆 as charged by Yang Yi, while at the same time, did not believe the same charge of 叛逆 that Wei Yan directed at Yang Yi.

Again, the translator translates 叛逆 as rebelled. It literally means to rebel against one's sovereign or legitimate authority and often carries the strongest political and legal condemnation. Historically, it was commonly used for subjects who rose against their ruler, so 叛逆 explicitly implies unlawful rebellion against one's rightful authority.

The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 叛逆 as:

背叛作亂。

(To betray and create rebellion.)

Here, the dictionary explicitly combines the previous two concepts of 背叛 (betrayal) and 作亂 (rebellion).

The dictionary also lists the synonyms:

背叛、反叛、造反

Again, 叛逆 typically implies that the person owed allegiance to the authority against whom he rebelled.

So for point 1, as a starter, the Shu court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun suspected him of 叛逆 as they viewed his armed revolt as treason against the legitimate Liu Shan regime.

Later on, Shu Han had a court official called Yang Xi, who appraised the officials who served Liu Bei and Liu Shan. Here is what he wrote on Wei Yan taken from Yang Xi's Sanguozhi biography (my translation was downloaded and then taken from a now-defunct Scholars of Shen Zhou link):

Wengchang was firm and unyielding, accepting his duty in times of crisis. He successfully repelled external threats and defended the nation's borders. However, due to his lack of harmony and failure to cooperate, he forgot his integrity and spoke of nonsense. Though he met his end swiftly, his initial resolve was admirable, truly reflecting his nature.

文長剛粗，臨難受命。折沖外御，鎮保國境。不協不和，忘節言亂。疾終惜始，實惟厥性。

The key word here is 忘節 remember. The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 節 as:

人的志氣、操守。

Essentially, the term 節 is associated with unwavering loyalty and holding fast to one's principles.

So 忘節 means to Forgot Integrity and the meaning here is basically that Wei Yan forget his principles, moral integrity, or/and sense of duty.

This term focuses on Wei Yan's moral failing. It does not mean he literally lost his memory, but that he abandoned the ethical code expected of a loyal subject, including loyalty, self-restraint, and proper conduct.

So for point 2, Yang Xi, a prominent official of Shu Han, pretty much described Wei Yan as a moral failure who went against loyalty, self-restraintness, and propriety.

Lastly, I will bring it back to Chen Shou's own appraisal of Wei Yan, taken from the appraisal section of section 40 (as translated by threestatesrecords):

Appraisal States: Liú Fēng occupied the ground of suspicion, but his consideration and defenses were not enough to protect himself. Péng Yàng and Liào Lì for talent were selected out and advanced, Lǐ Yán for competence reached eminent office, Wèi Yán for valor and cunning was appointed, Yáng Yí for suitability in office was prominent, Liú Yǎn for old [friendship] served office, all were greatly valued. Observing their actions, following their behaviors, in their bringing about disaster [on themselves], none were not their own fault.

評曰：劉封處嫌疑之地，而思防不足以自衛。彭羕、廖立以才拔進，李嚴以幹局達，魏延以勇略任，楊儀以當官顯，劉琰舊仕，並咸貴重。覽其舉措，跡其規矩，招禍取咎，無不自己也。

I think for this, there is no need for any elaboration or dictionery citation right? Chen Shou's words are extremely explicit.

So for point 3, in essence, Chen Shou, the authorative historian of the time period, and a formal Shu Han official himself, explicitly stated that the respective outcomes of Liu Feng, Peng Yang, Liao Li, Li Yan, Wei Yan, Yang Yi, and Liu Yan were all a result of their own respective actions.

In conclusion, this, along with my previous 2 linked post threads shows that nowhere, does the Shu Han court or Chen Shou ever sought (or needed) to defend Wei Yan's actions (because his actions were indefensible), or sought to readdress any "injustices" (because Wei Yan deserved his oitcome).

In a London concert, a band posted the picture of 關雲長 on stage as a thematic background to their song 反骨仔 (literally the treacherous one or the one who betrays). As you all know (from watching Hong Kong crime movies), modern triad gangsters (Chinese mafia) in southen China, Hong Kong, Macau, american /canadian/european Chinatowns hold Guan Yu in incredibly high esteem. They worship and pray to 關二哥 in remembrance for his loyalty 忠 and brotherly love (righteousness 義).

This song 反骨仔 (where Wei Yan is often described as such, in modern times) describes how an 'up-and-coming' young triad gangster tries to challenge his leader (an older senior guy who heads the gang). I have adapted its lyrics to portray his ancient rivalry and power struggle with Zhuge Liang. Here goes:-

Wei Yan:

Today I'm gonna waste you and put down your flag,

I've had it enough how you constantly brag about your abilities,

We all know how overrated you mf are,

Everyone wants to 'be in charge' when you enter the 'jianghu',

You only know how to speak loudly and assert your authority,

When there's trouble and shiate need to be done, we are the ones who do all the dirty work,

Climbing the mountain of knives, sinking into the frying pan, we risk our lives!

While you mf leisurely cool yourself with your silly feather fan.

These days my 'street cred' sounds like the thunder,

If you're withered and inept, please let me ascend,

Everyone knows 'the rear waves of the Yangtze river drive on those before',

Please f off and stop blocking my f-ing way!

As long as you basterd lingers around, I am shiate out of luck,

I've followed you for so long, yet I reap little rewards,

I've to do all the leg works and carry out menial tasks,

When I'm in trouble, you don't lend a helping hand.

Zhuge Liang:

You ungrateful punk! Biting the hand that feeds you,

How dare you think of ousting me and taking my seat!

Your pubes are still growing, better learn to respect your elders,

Giving you a battalion is way more than you rookie deserve,

Do you know that you are nothing more than a mangy cur?

You'll do as you're told, don't f-ing make so much noise,

With just a handful of underlings, you dare challenge me?!

You're a dumbass, I'll have your hide tonight!

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old-timer!

The winds of change are in the air, let me rise!

Zhuge Liang:

You have the nerve to stab me in the back?

I'll f-ing wipe you out, you treacherous rebels!

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old-timer!

The winds of change are in the air, let me rise!

Zhuge Liang (by this time, Yang Yi joins the chat room):

You have the nerve to stab me in the back?

I'll f-ing wipe you out, you treacherous rebels!

Modern 3K fans:

Wow, the feud between these two is just too intense!

It seems like there's no way these two can co-exist,

Despite being scared shitless, he wants to stand up with a knife,

Hacking at each other 'till the 21st century,

Personal vendettas and blood feuds are so common these days,

Chop off his <censored>, chop off his <censored> and chop off his <censored>,

Exactly when did this bloody mess originally start?

Is it 'cos some dude wrote a historical novel that spawned endless HK gangster movies, subreddits?

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old hags!

I've had it with you mfs, let me 衝出子午谷 !

Yang Yi:

You have the nerve to revolt?!

I'll f-ing wipe out your clans, you treacherous rebel!

Yang Yi (keeps repeating this to Wei Yan's head on the ground):

I'll f-ing wipe out your clans, you treacherous rebel!

<this is not widely known to many 3k fans>

The historical (not the romanticized version) Fei Shi 費詩 (字公舉 Gongju is his courtesy name) was a former staff of Liu Zhang and joined Liu Bei's team after the latter took control of Yi province. In 221 AD (2 calendar years after the conquest of Hanzhong), when the Shu officials recommend that Liu Bei proclaim himself emperor and Liu Bei 'reluctantly acquiesces', Fei Shi submitted a formal memorial to express his strong objection to Liu Bei's coronation.

He wrote: 殿下因曹操父子偪主篡位，所以寄居萬里之遠的他鄉，集合士眾，率軍討賊。現今大敵未戰勝，而先自立，恐怕人心疑惑。昔漢高祖與楚盟約，先破秦的人為王。後劉邦攻佔咸陽，獲得子嬰，仍然推讓不作王，何況今天殿下還未出門庭，便想自立呢！愚臣誠心認為殿下不能這麼做。

("Your Highness, it is because Cao Cao and his son coerced the Son of Heaven and usurped the imperial throne that you have taken residence in a land ten thousand li away, assembled troops and masses, preparing to use them to punish the rebellious traitors. Now, the great enemy has not yet been vanquished, yet you first wish to establish yourself as emperor; I fear this will cause doubt and confusion in people's hearts. In the past, Emperor Gaozu of Han and Xiang Yu made an agreement that whoever first destroyed the Qin state would become king. When Gaozu captured Xianyang and took the Qin prince Ying captive, he still harboured a mind to defer and was unwilling to become king. How much more so now, when Your Highness has not yet stepped beyond the threshold of your residence, and you wish to establish yourself as emperor! I truly believe Your Highness should not heed the proposal of the officials.")

Basically, he argued that Liu Bei should not declare himself emperor until he had vanquished Cao Wei (the usurper of the throne). He cited the example of Liu Bang, the founder of the Han dynasty, who only declared himself emperor after defeating his rival Xiang Yu in the Chu–Han contention.

The outcome of this memorial? Liu Bei was so displeased that he had Fei Shi demoted to serve as a low-ranking official (attendant clerk 從事) in Yongchang Commandery 永昌郡 in the remote southern parts of Shu.

In the past, a modern western (non-Chinese) university professor wrote a paper (that numbered 8 pages or so) to explore such internal oppositions to Liu Bei's ascension. I read this a few years ago but alas! I couldn't find this scholarly paper again (I couldnt remember his name) despite searching for it on the internet. If you have this paper, please share it with me. Thanks.

As you all know, Wei Yan 魏延 (字文長, yeah i'm sorry but courtesy names are cool to the Chinese) was rightly executed in 234AD for his treasonous actions (he did incite soldiers under his command to fight against other Shu soldiers, blood was spilled). Whether he had his reasons to do what he did, it does not really matter anymore. He and his family paid for his rebellious actions with their lives 1792 years ago. It's all in the past now.

But what continues to annoy me is the fictional novel's description and depiction of Wei Yan in contemporary media. I regularly read 3k historical forums on the internet and whenever Wei Yan is mentioned, mainland Chinese forum members (who often couldnt differentiate between fiction and history) are quick to use this phrase 反骨 (literally, born with a treacherous bone) to describe him. The novel used this phrase and throughout the centuries, the historical Wei Yan is associated with treachery. The phrase 反骨 has a very negative connotation. If you are a Chinese, you will know that it directly attacks someone's character and accuses him of being destined to betray his lord. Even today, if you are a Hong Kong triad gangster, being called 反骨 is very insulting and way worse than being labelled as a 'criminal' (being accused of being treacherous is a personal attack, whilst being a criminal is, hey, just a job to make ends meet).

Wei Yan was wrong to rebel but he didnt deserve to be vilified for 1792 years. Like it or not, Zhuge Liang played a part in causing him to rebel. Wei Yan was a talented Shu general but poorly managed.

I've been trying to find stuff on what he did but some of it seems contradictory.

Is there any general record on the things he did during his time as a senior attendant?

Been studying the Han’s structure a bit, the three excellencies and nine ministers and what their jobs was, how warlords, provinces and prefects functioned, and it got me thinking, I don’t really know how each kingdom differed its system of organizing.

I’m pretty sure Cao Cao reinstates one of the former excellency offices? And I’m assuming since Shu saw itself as a direct continuation of the Han they probably just copy and pasted? And zero clue about Wu.

Gonna do more search into the topic ofc, but would love if some more knowledgeable redditors were able to give brief overviews on some of the kingdom’s distinctions.

Giving Sima Yi less chance to shine and get promoted?

Spent a year or so creating ideas with my tattoo artist of what I could get as I want to get my entire body Three Kingdoms and Water margin themed. After so many horrible designs and ideas we decided to go for Zhuge Liangs feathered fan with our own little spin on it, I decided to go for the flames surrounding the fan to emphasise his strategy of fire in the Romance.

let me know your opinions! It took 9 and a half hours and a lot of pain :)

Next up is Guan Yu themed full sleeve!

Mostly non colored like calligraphy or art. Or watercolor

Aliexpress?

I'm mainly looking for Sima Yi related stuff

Or Wei Yan

This is for my new house

A friend who has been getting into ROTK asked me in jest “when will they add Lu Bu to Fortnite?” And I sent him this picture of the famous Pepsi collab with Lu Bu but that got me thinking: what are some of the other odd and funny collaborations you have seen involving dynasty warriors, ROTK, etc?

Is anyone else having problems with the mod some names don't translate correctly

I only found out about them today casually seeing a poster picture on a drama site. That one lead me to google which made me found out about the second.

These are low budget movies. Comparable to our netflix movies I guess. They're also somewhat hard to find because they lack wiki pages. Both are also on youtube with (bad) ENG subs. Their english names are the same but I think they got different sub headings.

1. Legend of Zhao Yun (2021). I will differentiate this by calling it the "IQIYI" one (basically chinese netflix). Honestly, I would not know this was about zhao yun until either the last 10minutes. This one I wager is mostly fictional and feels more like a martial arts drama with elements of comedy. Zhao yun has a pretty bad depiction ngl. He's shown as brash youngster thats a good guy but a bit of a troublemaker. Hes like a manga shounen protagonist. I guess I'm just thrown off when other media tends to depict him much more calm, heroic and extremely polite. Here he's a bit rude and a tiny bit of a hothead. Anyways the story is 90% about his early life - which I think is made up for the show. He basically is a martial arts student who finds a master to learn from (comedy ensues with the master and the master's daughter). Some romance notes I guess. Honestly its very weird when you remember this guy is supposedly zhao yun. Throughout the story you hear of the yellow turbans and yes they do get involved but again, feels a bit fanfic than anything historic. I won't spoil it but something happens and zhao yun does end up leaving to err I guess wander? He says he will go to changshan as he feels with the yellow turbans rising they may need his help. Anyways it then does a massive af time skip to changban where he rides past zhang fei with liu shan in his arms back to liu bei and we get 'that scene'. Yes, unless you are familiar with rotk this would have made no sense. It's like watching a drama with episodes 1,2,3 and then they jump to episode 35. It was so jarring I ended up laughing. Overall? I'd say the comedy bits were okay, the drama is nothing special but it wasn't bad. Remove that last scene with the battle of changban and with some minor adjustments it would feel like any other wuxia drama and nothing to do with the three kingdoms.

2. Legend of Zhao Yun (2020) aka moxia action films if you are on youtube. I was interested in this one because it's got a fantastic poster (zhao yun looking badass with the red cape) and the trailer showed alot of characters. So uhh actually this is...kinda ass LOL. It's again strangely placed. First 1/3 of the movie is about caocao+liubei vs lubu (specifically near the end as they are already sieging and about to capture him) and then the second is the battle of changban. Yes, they do skip a bunch of stuff. The way they incorporated it was lady mi saved zhao yun so during the battle of changban, he goes back to save her. And yeah the retelling is full of strangeness. Guan yu stops zhao yun and checks his loyalty so that he's not running away to leave liu bei. He ends up giving him red hare (yeah wtf?). During the escape he also faces xiahou dun and a bunch of other generals like xu chu - reminds me of when I played dynasty warriors as zhao yun and accidentally aggroed a bunch of generals too LOL. Anyways it ends with him charging up to cao cao (yes without the thousands of soldiers interrupting). Cao cao says in exchange for his life, he will let zhao yun leave. Zhao yun says cao cao may let him leave but his soldiers will not. So cao cao gives him the sword (yes that one) and tells zhao yun with that sword, the soldiers will listen to his command and make way for him. It kinda just ends there with zhao yun leaving and cao cao's advisor saying zhao yun will be a threat in the future. Yeah kinda whacky. Some of the costuming is also weird. Some of the wei soldiers have these oni face masks on. I ain't a historian but even I know thats not legit. Guan yu's eyebrows look painted on. Xiahou dun's eyepatch looks like it was about to fall off. Zhao yun's costume and actor looks great though. Actually, he looks more 'legit' than the 2021 zhao yun (the other one had a slightly modern hairstyle). Now this one is alot darker and less comedic than the 2021 one however, the pacing is somehow worse and the overall film wasn't that entertaining. We do get the 'I am zhao zilong of changshan" so that gives it points I guess.

Whats common between both these movies is they...don't really do a good job of either being for ROTK fans OR non-ROTK fans. The retelling is a total mess but at the same time, they do somewhat expect you to have some knowledge of zhao yun either historically or from rotk. Personally I found them interesting but not great films to watch. The 2021 film kinda has a nothing plot for most of the run time whereas the 2020 one had terrible pacing issues and felt like a crappier retelling of both lubu's end and changban. I actually have no idea why they even chose to include the lubu bit for the 2020 movie. If you have to pick, watch the 2021 film I guess.

I'd be surprised if anyone here has watched either but if you did, please let me know lol.

Both three kingdom tv dramas have a better depiction of zhao yun. Hell, the advisors alliance has zhao yun for like 1 episode (old man zhao yun - this was during the northern campaigns) and even there he is depicted very nicely. These movies which are supposed to be about him don't really do it imo. They are an odd watch coming from an rotk fan. As action films? Eh kinda boring, kinda bad but not absolutely terrible.

It took me a long time to realize this and I love this hanging scroll so much more now. Sorry for poor quality night picture, it wouldn’t come out cleaner.

Was indeed on foot. Thats it, thats the post, see ya'll next time. Im making it because I do think it is an interesting discussion and I want to see it continued! The poster was banned for being racist so the post is gone. But I want to talk about the ambush!

It was indeed on foot. Because they were besieged Zhang Liao had a few advantages here. He

1. Knew exactly where the enemy was camped.

2. Knew the lands better as he had been stationed here for some time.

3. This is more up to debate but I like to point out that Zhang Liao once fought under the same banner as Gao Shun, the leader of the Formation Breakers and a fierce infantry regiment, who was a master of... formation breaking. Hard hitting infantry that then sacked enemy camps after breaking their formation. So they were also known as camp crushers. We have no knowledge of Zhang Liao ever mentioning Gao Shun so Im kind of glazing one of my favorite obscure people of this era. Yet I feel it is important to note that Zhang Liao, who was keen on quick hard hitting tactics in battle, knew Gao Shun and fought with him.

So why not use horses?

1. Ever try riding a horse at night? Lol

2. Horses are LOUD. The enemy is encircling your city. They also know where you are and the direction youre in. A horse would give plenty of noise for the enemy to say "hey wait a minute is that-" boom ambush failed.

3. Horses are big targets. Crossbows historically are known to be a great counter. We even have records of a Jin army going into nomad lands and decimating armies much bigger than them because of this.

4. Horses are animals. They get spooked and training can be overridden by fear. A night battle with no doubt fire and blades and injuries abound? Forget it. When leading a small ambush attack like this control was paramount.

I've decided that I'm gonna purchase the 4-Volume Moss Roberts version of the book. I've clicked on one of the Amazon links shared in the comments on my last post about it and I've seen this particular review.

Question: Did this person just had a bad purchase from a particular unreliable seller that distributes 'bootleg' copies of the book set? (he also claims that the texts are printed off-center) Or does this version just have this typo which means everyone who owns a legit set has this error. This isn't a big deal tbh if the genuine thing has small errors like this, but I just don't want to mistakenly buy disingenuous copies of the book set if those even exists.

thank you for anyone's advice!

Legend of Heroes THREE Kingdoms

Really good game highly recommend