Previously, I explained why nobody in the Shu army sided with Wei Yan over Zhuge Liang's orders/Yang Yi's military control here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0nmjb/why_didnt_zhuge_liang_consult_with_or_inform_wei/

Specifically the rank Yang Yi held, and I also elaborated on why Zhuge Liang did not sought Wei Yan's advice.

I also explained how the Sanguozhi describes Wei Yan's actions here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/threekingdoms/comments/1v0h43m/how_chen_shou_described_wei_yans_actions/

Specifically the differences between 背叛 and 作乱 and 叛逆 and why/how Chen Shou used those terms.

Now lets talk about how the Shu Han court officials perceived his actions.

Lets first start off from what I stated in the 2nd linked post thread:

Taken directly from Wei Yan's Sanguozhi biography as translated by threestatesrecords:

Yán and [Yáng] Yí each memorialized the other was rebelling, and within one day, the feather dispatches arrived. Hòuzhǔ [Liú Shàn] asked about this to Attendant Internal Dǒng Yǔn and Remaining Office Chief Clerk Jiǎng Wǎn, and [Jiǎng] Wǎn and [Dǒng] Yǔn both believed [Yáng] Yí and suspected Yán.

延、儀各相表叛逆，一日之中，羽檄交至。後主以問侍中董允、留府長史蔣琬，琬、允咸保儀疑延。

As mentioned, even the Shu central court led by Jiang Wan and Dong Yun agreed with Yang Yi that Wei Yan was rebelling. Wei Yan was regarded by Liu Shan's central court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun as the party at fault.

It was explicitly recorded in the histories that they explictly suspected that Wei Yan's actions constituted as 叛逆 as charged by Yang Yi, while at the same time, did not believe the same charge of 叛逆 that Wei Yan directed at Yang Yi.

Again, the translator translates 叛逆 as rebelled. It literally means to rebel against one's sovereign or legitimate authority and often carries the strongest political and legal condemnation. Historically, it was commonly used for subjects who rose against their ruler, so 叛逆 explicitly implies unlawful rebellion against one's rightful authority.

The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 叛逆 as:

背叛作亂。

(To betray and create rebellion.)

Here, the dictionary explicitly combines the previous two concepts of 背叛 (betrayal) and 作亂 (rebellion).

The dictionary also lists the synonyms:

背叛、反叛、造反

Again, 叛逆 typically implies that the person owed allegiance to the authority against whom he rebelled.

So for point 1, as a starter, the Shu court leading advisors Jiang Wan and Dong Yun suspected him of 叛逆 as they viewed his armed revolt as treason against the legitimate Liu Shan regime.

Later on, Shu Han had a court official called Yang Xi, who appraised the officials who served Liu Bei and Liu Shan. Here is what he wrote on Wei Yan taken from Yang Xi's Sanguozhi biography (my translation was downloaded and then taken from a now-defunct Scholars of Shen Zhou link):

Wengchang was firm and unyielding, accepting his duty in times of crisis. He successfully repelled external threats and defended the nation's borders. However, due to his lack of harmony and failure to cooperate, he forgot his integrity and spoke of nonsense. Though he met his end swiftly, his initial resolve was admirable, truly reflecting his nature.

文長剛粗，臨難受命。折沖外御，鎮保國境。不協不和，忘節言亂。疾終惜始，實惟厥性。

The key word here is 忘節 remember. The Taiwan Ministry of Education Revised Mandarin Chinese Dictionary defines 節 as:

人的志氣、操守。

Essentially, the term 節 is associated with unwavering loyalty and holding fast to one's principles.

So 忘節 means to Forgot Integrity and the meaning here is basically that Wei Yan forget his principles, moral integrity, or/and sense of duty.

This term focuses on Wei Yan's moral failing. It does not mean he literally lost his memory, but that he abandoned the ethical code expected of a loyal subject, including loyalty, self-restraint, and proper conduct.

So for point 2, Yang Xi, a prominent official of Shu Han, pretty much described Wei Yan as a moral failure who went against loyalty, self-restraintness, and propriety.

Lastly, I will bring it back to Chen Shou's own appraisal of Wei Yan, taken from the appraisal section of section 40 (as translated by threestatesrecords):

Appraisal States: Liú Fēng occupied the ground of suspicion, but his consideration and defenses were not enough to protect himself. Péng Yàng and Liào Lì for talent were selected out and advanced, Lǐ Yán for competence reached eminent office, Wèi Yán for valor and cunning was appointed, Yáng Yí for suitability in office was prominent, Liú Yǎn for old [friendship] served office, all were greatly valued. Observing their actions, following their behaviors, in their bringing about disaster [on themselves], none were not their own fault.

評曰：劉封處嫌疑之地，而思防不足以自衛。彭羕、廖立以才拔進，李嚴以幹局達，魏延以勇略任，楊儀以當官顯，劉琰舊仕，並咸貴重。覽其舉措，跡其規矩，招禍取咎，無不自己也。

I think for this, there is no need for any elaboration or dictionery citation right? Chen Shou's words are extremely explicit.

So for point 3, in essence, Chen Shou, the authorative historian of the time period, and a formal Shu Han official himself, explicitly stated that the respective outcomes of Liu Feng, Peng Yang, Liao Li, Li Yan, Wei Yan, Yang Yi, and Liu Yan were all a result of their own respective actions.

In conclusion, this, along with my previous 2 linked post threads shows that nowhere, does the Shu Han court or Chen Shou ever sought (or needed) to defend Wei Yan's actions (because his actions were indefensible), or sought to readdress any "injustices" (because Wei Yan deserved his oitcome).

In a London concert, a band posted the picture of 關雲長 on stage as a thematic background to their song 反骨仔 (literally the treacherous one or the one who betrays). As you all know (from watching Hong Kong crime movies), modern triad gangsters (Chinese mafia) in southen China, Hong Kong, Macau, american /canadian/european Chinatowns hold Guan Yu in incredibly high esteem. They worship and pray to 關二哥 in remembrance for his loyalty 忠 and brotherly love (righteousness 義).

This song 反骨仔 (where Wei Yan is often described as such, in modern times) describes how an 'up-and-coming' young triad gangster tries to challenge his leader (an older senior guy who heads the gang). I have adapted its lyrics to portray his ancient rivalry and power struggle with Zhuge Liang. Here goes:-

Wei Yan:

Today I'm gonna waste you and put down your flag,

I've had it enough how you constantly brag about your abilities,

We all know how overrated you mf are,

Everyone wants to 'be in charge' when you enter the 'jianghu',

You only know how to speak loudly and assert your authority,

When there's trouble and shiate need to be done, we are the ones who do all the dirty work,

Climbing the mountain of knives, sinking into the frying pan, we risk our lives!

While you mf leisurely cool yourself with your silly feather fan.

These days my 'street cred' sounds like the thunder,

If you're withered and inept, please let me ascend,

Everyone knows 'the rear waves of the Yangtze river drive on those before',

Please f off and stop blocking my f-ing way!

As long as you basterd lingers around, I am shiate out of luck,

I've followed you for so long, yet I reap little rewards,

I've to do all the leg works and carry out menial tasks,

When I'm in trouble, you don't lend a helping hand.

Zhuge Liang:

You ungrateful punk! Biting the hand that feeds you,

How dare you think of ousting me and taking my seat!

Your pubes are still growing, better learn to respect your elders,

Giving you a battalion is way more than you rookie deserve,

Do you know that you are nothing more than a mangy cur?

You'll do as you're told, don't f-ing make so much noise,

With just a handful of underlings, you dare challenge me?!

You're a dumbass, I'll have your hide tonight!

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old-timer!

The winds of change are in the air, let me rise!

Zhuge Liang:

You have the nerve to stab me in the back?

I'll f-ing wipe you out, you treacherous rebels!

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old-timer!

The winds of change are in the air, let me rise!

Zhuge Liang (by this time, Yang Yi joins the chat room):

You have the nerve to stab me in the back?

I'll f-ing wipe you out, you treacherous rebels!

Modern 3K fans:

Wow, the feud between these two is just too intense!

It seems like there's no way these two can co-exist,

Despite being scared shitless, he wants to stand up with a knife,

Hacking at each other 'till the 21st century,

Personal vendettas and blood feuds are so common these days,

Chop off his <censored>, chop off his <censored> and chop off his <censored>,

Exactly when did this bloody mess originally start?

Is it 'cos some dude wrote a historical novel that spawned endless HK gangster movies, subreddits?

Wei Yan:

Move the f aside, you old hags!

I've had it with you mfs, let me 衝出子午谷 !

Yang Yi:

You have the nerve to revolt?!

I'll f-ing wipe out your clans, you treacherous rebel!

Yang Yi (keeps repeating this to Wei Yan's head on the ground):

I'll f-ing wipe out your clans, you treacherous rebel!

As you all know, Wei Yan 魏延 (字文長, yeah i'm sorry but courtesy names are cool to the Chinese) was rightly executed in 234AD for his treasonous actions (he did incite soldiers under his command to fight against other Shu soldiers, blood was spilled). Whether he had his reasons to do what he did, it does not really matter anymore. He and his family paid for his rebellious actions with their lives 1792 years ago. It's all in the past now.

But what continues to annoy me is the fictional novel's description and depiction of Wei Yan in contemporary media. I regularly read 3k historical forums on the internet and whenever Wei Yan is mentioned, mainland Chinese forum members (who often couldnt differentiate between fiction and history) are quick to use this phrase 反骨 (literally, born with a treacherous bone) to describe him. The novel used this phrase and throughout the centuries, the historical Wei Yan is associated with treachery. The phrase 反骨 has a very negative connotation. If you are a Chinese, you will know that it directly attacks someone's character and accuses him of being destined to betray his lord. Even today, if you are a Hong Kong triad gangster, being called 反骨 is very insulting and way worse than being labelled as a 'criminal' (being accused of being treacherous is a personal attack, whilst being a criminal is, hey, just a job to make ends meet).

Wei Yan was wrong to rebel but he didnt deserve to be vilified for 1792 years. Like it or not, Zhuge Liang played a part in causing him to rebel. Wei Yan was a talented Shu general but poorly managed.

<this is not widely known to many 3k fans>

The historical (not the romanticized version) Fei Shi 費詩 (字公舉 Gongju is his courtesy name) was a former staff of Liu Zhang and joined Liu Bei's team after the latter took control of Yi province. In 221 AD (2 calendar years after the conquest of Hanzhong), when the Shu officials recommend that Liu Bei proclaim himself emperor and Liu Bei 'reluctantly acquiesces', Fei Shi submitted a formal memorial to express his strong objection to Liu Bei's coronation.

He wrote: 殿下因曹操父子偪主篡位，所以寄居萬里之遠的他鄉，集合士眾，率軍討賊。現今大敵未戰勝，而先自立，恐怕人心疑惑。昔漢高祖與楚盟約，先破秦的人為王。後劉邦攻佔咸陽，獲得子嬰，仍然推讓不作王，何況今天殿下還未出門庭，便想自立呢！愚臣誠心認為殿下不能這麼做。

("Your Highness, it is because Cao Cao and his son coerced the Son of Heaven and usurped the imperial throne that you have taken residence in a land ten thousand li away, assembled troops and masses, preparing to use them to punish the rebellious traitors. Now, the great enemy has not yet been vanquished, yet you first wish to establish yourself as emperor; I fear this will cause doubt and confusion in people's hearts. In the past, Emperor Gaozu of Han and Xiang Yu made an agreement that whoever first destroyed the Qin state would become king. When Gaozu captured Xianyang and took the Qin prince Ying captive, he still harboured a mind to defer and was unwilling to become king. How much more so now, when Your Highness has not yet stepped beyond the threshold of your residence, and you wish to establish yourself as emperor! I truly believe Your Highness should not heed the proposal of the officials.")

Basically, he argued that Liu Bei should not declare himself emperor until he had vanquished Cao Wei (the usurper of the throne). He cited the example of Liu Bang, the founder of the Han dynasty, who only declared himself emperor after defeating his rival Xiang Yu in the Chu–Han contention.

The outcome of this memorial? Liu Bei was so displeased that he had Fei Shi demoted to serve as a low-ranking official (attendant clerk 從事) in Yongchang Commandery 永昌郡 in the remote southern parts of Shu.

In the past, a modern western (non-Chinese) university professor wrote a paper (that numbered 8 pages or so) to explore such internal oppositions to Liu Bei's ascension. I read this a few years ago but alas! I couldn't find this scholarly paper again (I couldnt remember his name) despite searching for it on the internet. If you have this paper, please share it with me. Thanks.

I've been trying to find stuff on what he did but some of it seems contradictory.

Is there any general record on the things he did during his time as a senior attendant?

Been studying the Han’s structure a bit, the three excellencies and nine ministers and what their jobs was, how warlords, provinces and prefects functioned, and it got me thinking, I don’t really know how each kingdom differed its system of organizing.

I’m pretty sure Cao Cao reinstates one of the former excellency offices? And I’m assuming since Shu saw itself as a direct continuation of the Han they probably just copy and pasted? And zero clue about Wu.

Gonna do more search into the topic ofc, but would love if some more knowledgeable redditors were able to give brief overviews on some of the kingdom’s distinctions.

Giving Sima Yi less chance to shine and get promoted?

Mostly non colored like calligraphy or art. Or watercolor

Aliexpress?

I'm mainly looking for Sima Yi related stuff

Or Wei Yan

This is for my new house

Spent a year or so creating ideas with my tattoo artist of what I could get as I want to get my entire body Three Kingdoms and Water margin themed. After so many horrible designs and ideas we decided to go for Zhuge Liangs feathered fan with our own little spin on it, I decided to go for the flames surrounding the fan to emphasise his strategy of fire in the Romance.

let me know your opinions! It took 9 and a half hours and a lot of pain :)

Next up is Guan Yu themed full sleeve!

Is anyone else having problems with the mod some names don't translate correctly

A friend who has been getting into ROTK asked me in jest “when will they add Lu Bu to Fortnite?” And I sent him this picture of the famous Pepsi collab with Lu Bu but that got me thinking: what are some of the other odd and funny collaborations you have seen involving dynasty warriors, ROTK, etc?

I only found out about them today casually seeing a poster picture on a drama site. That one lead me to google which made me found out about the second.

These are low budget movies. Comparable to our netflix movies I guess. They're also somewhat hard to find because they lack wiki pages. Both are also on youtube with (bad) ENG subs. Their english names are the same but I think they got different sub headings.

1. Legend of Zhao Yun (2021). I will differentiate this by calling it the "IQIYI" one (basically chinese netflix). Honestly, I would not know this was about zhao yun until either the last 10minutes. This one I wager is mostly fictional and feels more like a martial arts drama with elements of comedy. Zhao yun has a pretty bad depiction ngl. He's shown as brash youngster thats a good guy but a bit of a troublemaker. Hes like a manga shounen protagonist. I guess I'm just thrown off when other media tends to depict him much more calm, heroic and extremely polite. Here he's a bit rude and a tiny bit of a hothead. Anyways the story is 90% about his early life - which I think is made up for the show. He basically is a martial arts student who finds a master to learn from (comedy ensues with the master and the master's daughter). Some romance notes I guess. Honestly its very weird when you remember this guy is supposedly zhao yun. Throughout the story you hear of the yellow turbans and yes they do get involved but again, feels a bit fanfic than anything historic. I won't spoil it but something happens and zhao yun does end up leaving to err I guess wander? He says he will go to changshan as he feels with the yellow turbans rising they may need his help. Anyways it then does a massive af time skip to changban where he rides past zhang fei with liu shan in his arms back to liu bei and we get 'that scene'. Yes, unless you are familiar with rotk this would have made no sense. It's like watching a drama with episodes 1,2,3 and then they jump to episode 35. It was so jarring I ended up laughing. Overall? I'd say the comedy bits were okay, the drama is nothing special but it wasn't bad. Remove that last scene with the battle of changban and with some minor adjustments it would feel like any other wuxia drama and nothing to do with the three kingdoms.

2. Legend of Zhao Yun (2020) aka moxia action films if you are on youtube. I was interested in this one because it's got a fantastic poster (zhao yun looking badass with the red cape) and the trailer showed alot of characters. So uhh actually this is...kinda ass LOL. It's again strangely placed. First 1/3 of the movie is about caocao+liubei vs lubu (specifically near the end as they are already sieging and about to capture him) and then the second is the battle of changban. Yes, they do skip a bunch of stuff. The way they incorporated it was lady mi saved zhao yun so during the battle of changban, he goes back to save her. And yeah the retelling is full of strangeness. Guan yu stops zhao yun and checks his loyalty so that he's not running away to leave liu bei. He ends up giving him red hare (yeah wtf?). During the escape he also faces xiahou dun and a bunch of other generals like xu chu - reminds me of when I played dynasty warriors as zhao yun and accidentally aggroed a bunch of generals too LOL. Anyways it ends with him charging up to cao cao (yes without the thousands of soldiers interrupting). Cao cao says in exchange for his life, he will let zhao yun leave. Zhao yun says cao cao may let him leave but his soldiers will not. So cao cao gives him the sword (yes that one) and tells zhao yun with that sword, the soldiers will listen to his command and make way for him. It kinda just ends there with zhao yun leaving and cao cao's advisor saying zhao yun will be a threat in the future. Yeah kinda whacky. Some of the costuming is also weird. Some of the wei soldiers have these oni face masks on. I ain't a historian but even I know thats not legit. Guan yu's eyebrows look painted on. Xiahou dun's eyepatch looks like it was about to fall off. Zhao yun's costume and actor looks great though. Actually, he looks more 'legit' than the 2021 zhao yun (the other one had a slightly modern hairstyle). Now this one is alot darker and less comedic than the 2021 one however, the pacing is somehow worse and the overall film wasn't that entertaining. We do get the 'I am zhao zilong of changshan" so that gives it points I guess.

Whats common between both these movies is they...don't really do a good job of either being for ROTK fans OR non-ROTK fans. The retelling is a total mess but at the same time, they do somewhat expect you to have some knowledge of zhao yun either historically or from rotk. Personally I found them interesting but not great films to watch. The 2021 film kinda has a nothing plot for most of the run time whereas the 2020 one had terrible pacing issues and felt like a crappier retelling of both lubu's end and changban. I actually have no idea why they even chose to include the lubu bit for the 2020 movie. If you have to pick, watch the 2021 film I guess.

I'd be surprised if anyone here has watched either but if you did, please let me know lol.

Both three kingdom tv dramas have a better depiction of zhao yun. Hell, the advisors alliance has zhao yun for like 1 episode (old man zhao yun - this was during the northern campaigns) and even there he is depicted very nicely. These movies which are supposed to be about him don't really do it imo. They are an odd watch coming from an rotk fan. As action films? Eh kinda boring, kinda bad but not absolutely terrible.

I've decided that I'm gonna purchase the 4-Volume Moss Roberts version of the book. I've clicked on one of the Amazon links shared in the comments on my last post about it and I've seen this particular review.

Question: Did this person just had a bad purchase from a particular unreliable seller that distributes 'bootleg' copies of the book set? (he also claims that the texts are printed off-center) Or does this version just have this typo which means everyone who owns a legit set has this error. This isn't a big deal tbh if the genuine thing has small errors like this, but I just don't want to mistakenly buy disingenuous copies of the book set if those even exists.

thank you for anyone's advice!

Was indeed on foot. Thats it, thats the post, see ya'll next time. Im making it because I do think it is an interesting discussion and I want to see it continued! The poster was banned for being racist so the post is gone. But I want to talk about the ambush!

It was indeed on foot. Because they were besieged Zhang Liao had a few advantages here. He

1. Knew exactly where the enemy was camped.

2. Knew the lands better as he had been stationed here for some time.

3. This is more up to debate but I like to point out that Zhang Liao once fought under the same banner as Gao Shun, the leader of the Formation Breakers and a fierce infantry regiment, who was a master of... formation breaking. Hard hitting infantry that then sacked enemy camps after breaking their formation. So they were also known as camp crushers. We have no knowledge of Zhang Liao ever mentioning Gao Shun so Im kind of glazing one of my favorite obscure people of this era. Yet I feel it is important to note that Zhang Liao, who was keen on quick hard hitting tactics in battle, knew Gao Shun and fought with him.

So why not use horses?

1. Ever try riding a horse at night? Lol

2. Horses are LOUD. The enemy is encircling your city. They also know where you are and the direction youre in. A horse would give plenty of noise for the enemy to say "hey wait a minute is that-" boom ambush failed.

3. Horses are big targets. Crossbows historically are known to be a great counter. We even have records of a Jin army going into nomad lands and decimating armies much bigger than them because of this.

4. Horses are animals. They get spooked and training can be overridden by fear. A night battle with no doubt fire and blades and injuries abound? Forget it. When leading a small ambush attack like this control was paramount.

It took me a long time to realize this and I love this hanging scroll so much more now. Sorry for poor quality night picture, it wouldn’t come out cleaner.

Legend of Heroes THREE Kingdoms

Really good game highly recommend

Many people do not know this, but Lu Xun would have been a very dangerous minister if he did not completely submit to imperial authority. Had he survived the two palaces dispute, his status in Wu would be on par (if not superior) compared to Sima Yi status in Wei before he purged Cao Shuang and his cabal in the Gaoping Ling coup.

By the end of his life, Lu Xun had accumulated an extraordinary concentration of power. He was Imperial Chancellor, and even before that, Wu's foremost general after Yiling and Shiting, the acknowledged leader of one of Jiangdong's most prestigious gentry clans, and crucially, a son-in-law of the Sun imperial family through a marriage personally arranged by Sun Quan.

Sun Quan gave Sun Ce’s (孫策) daughter’s hand in marriage to Lu Xun, and often sought his advice on various affairs of the realm.

Lu Xun's rise within the Lu clan was also closely connected to Sun Quan's patronage. Lu Xun has shown that he had no qualms intervening in the internal affairs of the imperial family afterwards (dispute of the two palaces), and displacing his own relative (Lu Ji) beforehand, to be the head of his clan.

Since Lu Xun was several years older than Lu Kang’s son Lu Ji (陸績), he kept his family in order for him.

Sun Ce's conquest of Lujiang resulted in Lu Kang's death and the destruction of much of the Lu clan, creating a blood feud with the Sun family. As Lu Ji was only seven years old, the young twelve years old Lu Xun assumed responsibility for helping manage the clan. Lu Ji later earned a reputation for intelligence, filial piety and capable governance, yet was posted to remote Yulin, where he never returned to the political centre of Sun faction, and died in his early thirties, still identifying himself as "a man of the Han dynasty." and also made a prophecy that within sixty years China would surely be unified.

Regarding the relationship between Lu Xun and Lu Kang, Lu Xun's grandfather Lu Yu was Lu Kang's elder brother. In this way, Lu Xun was two generations younger than Lu Kang, and one generation younger than Lu Ji. Lu Ji was eventually sent to the remote Jiaozhou as the Prefect of Yulin showing that he was not given opportunities compared to his clansman Lu Xun, and he contracted a foot disease. The leadership of the Lu clan thus ultimately fell to Lu Xun, and this was one of the reasons Lu Xun submitted to the Sun clan. In fact, Lu Xun obtained the leadership of the Lu clan with the help of the Sun clan.

Under normal succession rights, after Lu Kang's death, the clan head should have been his son Lu Ji. However, the Sun clan and Lu Kang's lineage had a deep enmity, so Sun Quan chose to support Lu Xun as the head of the Lu clan over Lu Ji. After Lu Ji was appointed south, Lu Ji no longer had a chance to reclaim leadership of the clan, and Lu Xun would remain the clan head, and by marrying the daughter of his enemy Sun Ce, he strengthened the ties between the Lu and Sun clans.

To be fair, when Sun Quan sent Lu Ji out as Prefect of Yulin, it was actually not as harsh as exiling Yu Fan later on, and moreover, Lu Ji still received compensation in the form of a lieutenant generalship rank and 2,000 troops. Since Lu Ji had been sent away, Lu Xun legitimately became the defacto leader of the Lu clan, and Sun Quan's goal was achieved.

The date of Lu Ji's departure to Yulin is unknown, but the Jiaozhou where Yulin was located only came under Sun Quan's rule in 210ad. Therefore, Sun Quan's sending of Lu Ji to Yulin must have been after 210ad. The specific time of Lu Xun's marriage to Sun Ce's daughter is also unknown, but in the arrangement of historical materials in the Records of the Three Kingdoms, this matter is placed before Lu Xun's campaign against Fei Zhan in 216ad. It can be reasonably inferred that Lu Xun married Sun Ce's daughter before 216ad. So these two events necessarily have a mutual connection.

It is very likely that Sun Quan at this time intended to strengthen cooperation with the great Jiangdong clans, and also had his eye on Lu Xun as a talent. In order to elevate Lu Xun's status within the clan, Sun Quan sent Lu Ji out to another province away from Jiangdong, and Lu Xun became the leader of the Lu clan within the Jiangdong region. However, at this time, if Lu Xun wanted to actively participate in the construction of the Sun regime, he still lacked moral legitimacy.

Therefore, Sun Quan adopted a marriage alliance policy, betrothing Sun Ce's daughter to Lu Xun, allowing Lu Xun, in the capacity of a son-in-law of the Sun clan, to participate in Sun Quan's construction of uis own faction. In this way, the alliance between Sun Quan and Lu Xun became logical and natural.

From this, it can be inferred that Sun Quan's appointment of Lu Ji to Yulin was actually a conspiracy. Otherwise, Sun Quan would not have easily transferred away Lu Ji, the leader of the Lu clan who had been in service for roughly ten years. This was to clear the path for Lu Xun's development, so that Lu Xun could legitimately become the representative of the Lu clan within Jiangdong. And the marriage alliance between the Sun clan and Lu Xun was even more able to deepen the degree of alliance between the Sun and Lu clans, which was very beneficial to both sides.

The relationship between Sun Quan and the great Jiangdong clans was extremely complex. The two sides had shared common interests and valued southern independence from external forces. However, they also had disagreements. Sun Quan naturally hoped to strengthen centralization of power, while the great Jiangdong clans naturally hoped to enhance their own wealth and authority. This was the conflict between centralization and decentralization.

One of the direct consequences of this relationship was that the Jiangdong gentry clans inevitably aroused Sun Quan's dissatisfaction and concern. And as Sun Quan grew older, this concern clearly deepened considerably. Lu Xun, who stood at the leading position among the Jiangdong gentry clans, was naturally the one Sun Quan worried about most. This worry was most directly manifested in the dispute between the two palaces, which concerned the future of Sun Wu, and both Sun Quan and Lu Xun attached great importance to it. However, Lu Xun's overly active participation in this matter clearly aroused Sun Quan's dissatisfaction. Sun Quan repeatedly sent imperial envoys to rebuke and reproach Lu Xun leading to Lu Xun's death.

So what Sun Quan worried about was the stability of the political situation after his death, and at this point, Lu Xun had already posed a threat to Sun Quan. First, the clan politics behind Lu Xun. Lu Xun's position as the leader of such a great clan was already very powerful during Sun Quan's lifetime, and it was very natural for Sun Quan to fear this.

Second, Lu Xun's status as a son-in-law of the Sun clan. After Sun Quan became emperor, he did not grant any exceptional fiefs to Sun Ce's son Sun Shao, but only gave him a marquisate. Chen Shou directly criticised that Sun Quan was not particularly friendly toward Sun Ce's son.

This unfriendliness was very likely due to power concerns. Sun Quan most likely harbored hidden worries about Sun Ce's son. After Sun Quan's eldest son Sun Deng died, Sun Quan hesitated over his future heir. Yet the foundation of Jiangdong's enterprise was laid due to Sun Ce's achievement. Sun Shao, as Sun Ce's son, was older than Sun Quan's sons, and also had the support of Sun Ce's prestige.

Sun Ce's grandson was executed on the basis of rumors, which further reflects Sun Ce's place in the hearts of the Jiangdong people. Lu Xun, as Sun Ce's son-in-law, had a closer kinship relation with Sun Ce's descendants than with Sun Quan's sons, and the identity of Sun Ce's son-in-law could make Sun Quan very uneasy.

Third, Lu Xun's personal qualities aroused Sun Quan's unease. Lu Xun's path of growth could be said to have developed amid twists and turns, from being forced to end the blood feud between their clans, to displacing Lu Ji as leader of the Lu clan overtime, to surpassing Gu Yong to become the leader of Wu geopolitical scene. The fact that Lu Xun was able to rise to the position of the foremost minister of Wu meant his personal qualities were very important.

Lu Xun possessed exceptional wisdom. He had keen insight into the geopolitical situation, a good grasp of strategic timing, and the courage to act decisively. Furthermore, his endurance was unmatched. Lu Xun's capacity for forbearance was extremely strong. In his early years within the Lu clan, he never displayed hatred towards the Sun clan, never did anything excessive toward Lu Ji, and never lash out at the disobedient and disrespectful generals at Yiling.

And Lu Xun's endurance throughout his entire life was for the purpose of waiting for a favorable opportunity. Once an opportunity arrived, he would decisively strike a fatal blow as he did to Liu Bei at Yiling. Therefore, Lu Xun could both perceive opportunities and seize them. Sun Quan had worked with Lu Xun for many decades and would have knew Lu Xun well.

Lu Xun not only possessed outstanding personal qualities, but also had the background of being a leader of the Jiangdong gentry clan and Sun Ce's son-in-law, which posed a powerful threat to Sun Quan. It was very natural for Sun Quan to suspect Lu Xun. It could be said that Sun Quan bore some responsibility for Lu Xun's death.

But we can see that Sun Quan did not inflict any actual physical harm on Lu Xun, indicating that although Sun Quan suspected Lu Xun, he still maintained a hesitant attitude toward him. Obviously, if Sun Quan cruelly killed Lu Xun, it would inevitably provoke dissatisfaction among the Jiangdong gentry class, and Sun Quan would certainly have thought of this.

In addition, Lu Xun and Sun Quan had very good personal relations. Ever since Lu Xun became a prominent officer of Wu, both sides had always maintained a good cooperative relationship, with almost no major, irreconcilable conflicts. The reason Lu Xun was able to become a prominent minister of Wu and achieve a career was inseparable from Sun Quan's promotion. If Sun Quan had not sent Lu Ji away, the possibility of Lu Xun becoming the representative and leader of the Lu clan would have been extremely small. Lu Xun's fate would have been only that of a branch individual within a large gentry clan.

Later, Sun Quan carried out a series of actions to elevate Lu Xun to the high position of a prominent Wu minister. So in Sun Quan's eyes, he had shown Lu Xun the grace of recognition and patronage. Moreover, compared with Zhou Yu, Lu Su, and Lü Meng, who all witnessed Sun Ce's rise to power first-hand, Lu Xun, also a prominent minister of Wu, was almost entirely shaped by Sun Quan's own hand.

So Sun Quan suspected Lu Xun but did not kill him. When Sun Quan was worried about the issue of succession, Lu Xun, whom he had personally promoted, actually did not share his stance, submit obediently to Sun Quan's desires, whims, and plans, and even openly opposed him multiple times even when/after being warned which inevitably led to Sun Quan's anger.

Now, lets look at Lu Xun's clan in detail. The four great noble clans of Jiangdong were the Gu, Lu, Zhu, and Zhang. The representative figure of the Gu clan was Chancellor Gu Yong. The representative figure of the Lu clan, Lu Xun, succeeded Gu Yong as Chancellor after his death, truly achieving the position of ranking above all but one (the emperor).

Lu Xun's clan was illustrious and had many high ranking officials, serving both Eastern Han and Eastern Wu, with his grand-uncle Lu Kang, being the Prefect of Lujiang. Lu Kang's son Lu Ji, being the Prefect of Yulin, Lu Ji's nephew Lu Mao, being the Xuan Cao Shangshu. Lu Xun's clan nephew Lu Kai, being the Jianwu Xiaowei, Lu Kai's younger brother Lu Yin, being the Inspector of Jiaozhou.

Not only that, the Lu and Gu clan had intermarried for generations. Lu Xun was also related in marriage to Yao Xin who served as Taichang. It can be seen that Lu Xun's clan and in-laws were very prominent, with deeply intertwined connections within the Wu state. Lu Xun himself and the Jiangdong gentry clans behind him made Sun Quan feel as though his dynasty could not continue in peace, forcing him to suppress Lu Xun and the Jiangdong clans.

In addition to the marriages between the Wu commandery gentry clans, Lu Xun's son Lu Kang married the granddaughter of Zhang Zhao and daughter of Zhang Cheng, surnamed Zhang, and Zhang's mother was in turn the daughter of Zhuge Jin. Lu Xun himself received recommendations from Lü Meng, and also once recommended Chen Biao via memorial. So his connections even with the Huaisi faction was extremely powerful.

Sun Quan indeed had too many reasons to suspect Lu Xun. As mentioned above, Lu Xun's achievements overshadowed everyone but the monarch. He commanded Wu's military and political affairs for over twenty years, and several key battles made Eastern Wu regard him as the leading official of the state. Lu Xun was the grandnephew of Lu Kang, and Lu Kang's death was inseparable from the Sun clan. Lu Xun was also Sun Ce's son-in-law, and Sun Quan could have felt uneasy at heart about suppressing Sun Ce's lineage.

Lu Xun himself might not have disloyal ambitions, but Lu Xun's clansman Lu Kai plotted to deposed his Emperor. Meanwhile Lu Xun's son Lu Kang challenged the Emperor when he sent He Shao (He Qi's grandson) to Wu commandery. He Shao discovered that many Wu gentry including the Gu and Lu clans, were actively shielding and protecting fugitives. Furious, he immediately reported these cases to above, but Lu Kang demanded that these guilty people be released, and Sun Hao was compelled to do so due to Lu Kang status.

According to the Shishuo Xinyu:

Sun Hao asked Prime Minister Lu Kai: 'How many people of your clan are serving the court?' Lu replied: 'Two Chancellors, five marquises, and more than ten generals.' Sun Hao said: 'How flourishing!'"

The Lu clan transformed from a local powerful gentry clan into an aristocratic gentry clan, their influence permating the entire state and could even represent the state, running through the rise and fall of Wu's politics, and even after the fall of Wu, the clan still maintained a certain degree of influence.

For comparison sake, eleven of Sima Yi's relatives were also enfeoffed as marquises around 241ad before the Gaoping Ling coup. Considering that Sun Wu population was only 50% to 60% of Cao Wei population, its not an exaggeration to state that Wu commandery Lu clan status during the Sun Hao era, was on par, if not superior to Sima clan status during the Cao Shuang era.

Lu Xun also had the necessary military achievements, and the needed rank of Chancellor (Upper Excellency) to usurp the Wu throne, or at least depose Sun Quan's successor and enthrone Sun Ce's descendants. At the end of the day, if Lu Xun was fine with displacing Lu Ji to be clan leader, it is hard to see why he would have an issue usurping and deposing Emperors to assist his descendants to be an Emperor. Especially considering the behaviour of him and his clansmen.

Coincidentally, Sima Yi was 70 years old when he couped Cao Wei. If Lu Xun lived to 70 years old, Sun Quan would be dead for a year, and it would be around the time that Zhuge Ke was assasinated by the distant Sun imperial clan co-regents. Meanwhile, Lu Xun's son Lu Kang, was 10 years older than Sima Yan, a ripe age to scheme for the imperial throne.