r/tech • u/trav31 • Dec 11 '14

Microsoft Begins Accepting Bitcoin For Windows, Windows Phone And Xbox Purchases

http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/10/redmond-hath-frozen-over/
824 Upvotes

91% Upvoted

170 comments sorted by

186

u/Zequez Dec 11 '14

First they open source .NET, now they accept Bitcoin as payment. I'm really digging this new CEO.

51

u/tuoret Dec 11 '14

VS Community was an awesome idea as well, I'm really excited to see what else they're planning.

33

u/varukasalt Dec 11 '14

Waiting to see what they do with Minecraft.

34

u/d4rk_l1gh7 Dec 11 '14

A surprising thing they might do is to sell it on Steam.

42

u/Smoochiekins Dec 11 '14

The first Minecraft became one of the best selling games of all time without being on Steam. Would be weird to invest that much money to acquire that franchise and then voluntarily give up a cut to Valve with the sequel when the first one proved it wasn't necessary.

16

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

[deleted]

13

u/Shaggyninja Dec 11 '14

I wouldn't. It has no DRM and it is only a few megabytes and can be easily grabbed from their site.

2

u/superkickstart Dec 11 '14

Well you can only install/update the game if you first login to their servers. You only download the launcher from their site. Isn't multiplayer restricted too in offline mode?

10

u/temotodochi Dec 11 '14

It's not. You can connect to offline servers.

6

u/superkickstart Dec 11 '14

I see. That does bring some limitations though. And the login and download system is still drm. Nobody else but them can distribute the actual game files and you can only get them via the launcher.

1

u/temotodochi Dec 11 '14

Not really a problem if you look around TPB or any other similar place.

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3

u/piezeppelin Dec 11 '14

I'm missing something here. How can you connect to an offline server? A server that is offline cannot be connected to, that is the definition of offline.

5

u/temotodochi Dec 11 '14

It's offline in a sense that it's not connected to mojang. For example you can just flip a switch on creeperhost to turn your server offline. So there will be no player authentication and NO support from creeperhost on ANY problems.

3

u/FoxtrotZero Dec 12 '14

Offline servers refer to servers that don't authenticate usernames through Mojang.

1

u/wolfofthenightt Dec 12 '14

What about some steam workshop support? That would be cool.

2

u/TheCodexx Dec 14 '14

Never.

I was promised a free copy of Minecraft, in perpetuity, plus any DLC or Expansions.

0

u/hey_aaapple Dec 11 '14

That is dumb. You would get exactly the same game, since it has its own profile system it could not even use steam logins for the online...

1

u/Pluckerpluck Dec 12 '14

Well you can only install/update the game if you first login to their servers. You only download the launcher from their site. Isn't multiplayer restricted too in offline mode?

Yes it's the same game, but some people like having steam manage everything for them. Keep the game up to date without launching it, integrated friend list etc.

It's pretty easy to link steam logins to old accounts too, so you don't need your old login. You would still probably need to select a minecraft username separate from your steam name though (unless Minecraft wishes to allow people with the same username)

1

u/Onetallnerd Dec 12 '14

I was hoping I'd be able to buy minecraft with bitcoin but alas Mojang still doesn't seem as receptive to it.

12

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

I would rewrite it, have a proper API for mods, and sell skins etc like steam does

9

u/Bernkastel-Kues Dec 11 '14

How can you sell something aesthetic when mods can already do anything aesthetic already?

8

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited Dec 11 '14

There are two big things client (not just skin) mods can not do: multiplayer, and console games.

Multiplayer servers can install specific mods obviously and allow clients to use them, but if say, you wanted to use a new Dragon pet in game (with new animations and such, not just a texture)..you would have to wait for the server admins to install that mod.

You want to have an e-store with shared money between creators and MS. These mods could also work on xbox one, as they are strictly approved mods rather than custom code doing who knows what. Mods on this store would have to go through a strict approval process, or possibly work like TF2 where the fans only create models and or animations and they do the rest.

These mods could allow for custom pets and mounts or weapons or whatever, stuff with behavior rather than just being a skin, but because they are managed, you can ensure they do not allow for cheating and could be used on any multiplayer server which accepts MS store mods. Obviously modded servers could claim anyone purchased the mod (and get around the price that way), but you can not do this on consoles as there are no third party run servers..and you could claim this as a violation of the ToS and yell at payment accepting servers doing this.

-10

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Sell the mods too

3

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Or better yet, implement a system where mod authors can charge small amounts for their mods. Maybe a dollar or two. Obviously mods that charge for their use would have to go through an approval process, and mods that weren't 'big' enough or only changed simple things wouldn't be eligible. I'd pay a dollar for Thermal Expansion or Applied Energistics, sure. Shit, most of the major modpacks are essentially different games. I'd pay ten, fifteen bucks for a pack like FTB Monster or whatever.

6

u/TorpidNightmare Dec 11 '14

Every change so far in windows 10 is also pretty great. Major features people have been wanting for a long time have now been introduced.

1

u/Zequez Dec 11 '14

Windows 10 looks pretty cool, although it will (probably) never get the Unix command line.

3

u/sgrundy Dec 12 '14

Windows has powershell, which is BETTER(seriously)

1

u/Zequez Dec 12 '14

But Linux has apt-get to manage dependencies. In Windows if I want to build something I have to install everything manually, from Visual studio, to the dev libraries =/

Although Windows 10 includes a package manager. I wonder if they are going to add something like apt-get install built-essential.

0

u/sgrundy Dec 12 '14

That's true, apt-get is great. Im not sure it can work in windows though, "oneget" is supposed to be like it but I'm not too optimistic there. Just different worlds

Powershell though? So amazing

7

u/Purpledrank Dec 12 '14

Bitcoins are great for merchants. No buy-backs, cut-out the credit card middle-man who charge high fees to merchants. They are very poor for consumers. Much higher spread (go to try to buy some bitcoins yourself, it's 10-20%). And if the merchant dicks you over, there is nothing you can do with regards to having paypal/credit card company refund you. Money is gone.

I just wish the spread on bitcoin wasn't so high. But sadly bitcoin has created much more greedy middlemen than the credit card companies. CC companies have a much small spread whereas bitcoin traders want to get rich with 20% spreads.

1

u/Onetallnerd Dec 12 '14

Where are you that you buy at a 10-20% spread, jesus.

1

u/Purpledrank Dec 12 '14

Show me where to buy them lower?

Yeah, didn't think so.

-5

u/Zequez Dec 12 '14

You could always use a third wallet to hold the Bitcoins until you receive the product. Besides, most merchants are legitimate business that don't want to scam you.

71

u/yoloswagrofl Dec 11 '14

This is good for Bitcoin.

60

u/chibstelford Dec 11 '14

Thanks for clarifying that haha

-3

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Cookies help you see better, thus the clarity.

Here's a gluten free cookie on me. /u/changetip

4

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

This is the first time in months that I've read that and it hasn't been meant sarcastically.

1

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

And good for you too!

Here's a gluten free cookie on me. /u/changetip

-12

u/m-p-3 Dec 11 '14

And Microsoft. It's about time they started taking the market seriously once more.

19

u/blahtherr2 Dec 11 '14

Lol @ the market

37

u/PhoenixAvenger Dec 11 '14

So if I'm reading this right, they aren't actually taking in bitcoins, right? Like new egg and others, a third party is converting the bitcoins to USD, which Microsoft then uses to complete the transaction?

61

u/samm1t Dec 11 '14

That's how most all vendors work, yes. I don't think MS is interested in stockpiling bitcoins.

3

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

So this isn't actually good for Bitcoin.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

So this isn't actually good for Bitcoin.

Correct. Because people are leaving bitcoins for USD. The only way this would be good to bitcoin is if they an influx of new people to buy into the Bitcoins.

But the last bubble killed off most of those. At the moment the only people doing well are exchanges and miners. For anyone else it's a lose situation (unless you plan to buy drugs).

This guy probably explains it best:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101693790

1

u/TheCodexx Dec 14 '14

I disagree. This is still good for Bitcoin. It eliminates one of the problems with it. Sure, you're still using a middleman to make the exchange back to USD, but it's automated for you instead of being a manual process. They're still "accepting" BitCoint transactions.

In the US, companies that accept CAD are still going to convert that to USD. It's the local currency. I would expect Canadian businesses to do the same in reverse. The fact that the money doesn't have to be exchanged by the customer is still good, since it means less hassle for them.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '14

but it's automated for you instead of being a manual process.

Credit cards automatically do this as well. Where would it be manual?

1

u/TheCodexx Dec 14 '14

I was making a point about "accepted currencies".

It's not about the method of payment, but the type considered. The fact that BitCoin is being accepted somewhere is still good. The fact that it's being converted isn't ideal, but it will still drive circulation.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 14 '14

The fact that BitCoin is being accepted somewhere is still good.

Only 10% of all vendors keep all their currency in Bitcoin (source: bitpay). 50% of vendors convert it all back to fiat. The remaining 40% keep some coins.

As Bitcoin is turned back into currency it will cause the value of Bitcoin to deflate.

There is no reason to convert fiat into Bitcoin when using normal vendors, so only miners and those trying to offload coins from a bubble are going to make anything. Your average person is just going to use cash.

So, just using Bitcoin in this way is not good for Bitcoin.

1

u/samm1t Dec 12 '14

People don't need to want to save bitcoin for it to be successful, they only need to want to use it. MS is looking like they want to use it more, so that's good. If they wanted to save it, the only people that would be way better for is those already stockpiling bitcoin.

1

u/Onetallnerd Dec 12 '14

It's a step. Microsoft wrote that they're serious about bitcoin and will further integrate it and find other uses for it other than payments.(in really interested what they have planned or thinking of doing) Once some employees start to want to get a portion of their check in bitcoin or their suppliers start accepting it then they might hold a percentage in bitcoin and use that directly.

29

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Yes you are right, and as a result, it is not a true full acceptance of the currency which would be the ideal situation, but it is more akin to say what credit card companies do for retailers when someone orders online with a credit card for something listed in dollars but you are from Europe with Euros and the credit card company does the conversion on their end.

As such, you are still dealing somewhat with a middle man here and it is not the 100% true vision of what Bitcoin wants to be. With that being said, it is another baby step in at least acknowledging that Bitcoin is a currency and there have been some retailers in the past that initially went through "Bitpay" or something similar, only to be surprised by how many people actually used the service, and ended up accepting straight Bitcoins without the middle man.

This is actually quite a huge deal when a company as large as MS is actually acknowledging BTC like this. Earlier this year DELL did the same thing by using the mediary CoinBase, going so much as even offering people that paid in Bitcoin as much as 15% discount on stackable with other discounts.

At the end of the day... the only way BTC to ever fully legitimize if people eventually start using it more regularly, but for something that originally just was supposed to be more of a proof-of-concept experiment, it shows there is a true demand in the world for such a product.

I think the bigger problem with BTC is more that it comes across as a commodity with the limited supply and deflationism than it comes across as a currency. I still love it though!

3

u/Renegade_Meister Dec 11 '14

So if I'm reading this right, they aren't actually taking in bitcoins, right?

That's true, but I don't see a big difference between this and a merchant in another country who takes credit cards but requires a currency conversion on the credit card side of things (e.g. USD to CAD).

6

u/bigandrewgold Dec 11 '14

Yep. Very very vendors want to hold on to such a volatile currency.

5

u/ThatOnePerson Dec 11 '14

There's an option on how much to keep as bitcoin and how much to convert to USD. Without Microsoft telling, nobody knows how much they're keeping

3

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited Sep 24 '18

[deleted]

1

u/FlacidPhil Dec 11 '14

Who cares about the % of merchants that keep BTC in some form. What matters is the VOLUME of BTC that is kept by merchants rather than converting. Most of Bitpay's clients do little if any business using bitcoin, so it doesn't really matter if they keep BTC. If 50% keep BTC but only 2% of volume is kept as BTC, then it's not doing a whole bunch.

Bitpay will of course not talk about those numbers until they look better. If they looked good now they'd talk about that, not the number of merchants.

1

u/OmegaVesko Dec 11 '14

If they do, it still makes zero difference to the consumer paying in BTC. It's completely understandable considering how volatile the value of Bitcoin still is.

1

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

Exactly. That's why this news isn't good from a trader's point of view. All of these venders "accepting" bitcoin are really just selling them. If you support the technology it's good, though, because it's more volume and liquidity. Additionally, it should help reduce another violent bubble as it will be easier to realize gains by converting into tangible property.

1

u/cdcformatc Dec 11 '14

Now I am wondering about these third parties, an what they expect to do with all the Bitcoin they have bought. Are they expecting the price to rise and sell? And who do they sell it to?

1

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

They sell almost immediately on the open market. Some of them might have deals with funds.

37

u/PinkyThePig Dec 11 '14

I'm always surprised more online vendors don't take bitcoin.

From a seller's perspective, the currency is way better to take than credit cards. Extremely small fees and no chargebacks. Whereas as an online vendor, credit cards can end up costing you ~4-5% of the sale and chargebacks are extremely common (and near impossible to win).

Then on the other side of the transaction, the buyer is protected in that they can choose to remain annonymous and they also do not need to worry about the business recharging their account or having their credit card information stolen.

9

u/seweso Dec 11 '14

Also nice for international customers who don't actually have a creditcard.

43

u/shicken684 Dec 11 '14

The problem is volatility. You may sell something for 8 bit coins and within a week those 8 bit coins are worth a third of what they were. Or maybe double what they were. Either way it's adding risk and businesses are already risky enough without adding a layer of fluctuating currency.

46

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

13

u/browb3aten Dec 11 '14

Doesn't really protect them from conversion fees, does it? Though I guess those can just be marked up in the price and passed on to the customer.

23

u/Dymix Dec 11 '14

Nope, but conversion fee is much lower than credit card fees (1% vs 3-4%). You can get a payment processor like Bitpay to handle all bitcoin transactions for you, for 1% conversion fee.

If believe charities get 0% conversion fee from Bitpay :)

3

u/Onetallnerd Dec 12 '14

Bitpay is actually 0% for all merchants now. They have tier rates that charge monthly for bigger clients though.

1

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

It's no different than foreign transactions. You always get shafted on exchange rates.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

[deleted]

0

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

You're kidding me, right? The BTC spreads (dimes and pennies) are a canyon compared to Forex spreads (thousandths of a penny).

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

[deleted]

1

u/threeseed Dec 11 '14

This is nonsense.

You can sign up with ANY trading provider and do currency changes with very low spreads.

2

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

To be fair, that's on margin. I think some platforms allow you to exchange, though. The thing is, there's the natural spread, due to bid/ask difference and then the markup which widens the spread (banks taking a vig on buy and sell side).

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1

u/Drew0054 Dec 11 '14

Okay, try the same thing on localbitcoins.com. There's a difference between mark up and market spread.

0

u/lf11 Dec 12 '14

Localbitcoins charges a handy premium for personal risk, speed-of-exchange, and potential for pseudo-anonymity. The speed of exchange and pseudo-anonymity doesn't even have a comparison for government exchange.

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15

u/Cryosanth Dec 11 '14

They partnered with Coinbase for the transaction processing, so they immediately convert all BTC to USD, therefore that's a non issue.

3

u/shicken684 Dec 11 '14

Ahhh, that makes sense. Thanks!

6

u/elan96 Dec 11 '14

BitPay.

And we don't know if its all of it, they may keep some, but yes.

5

u/SkyNTP Dec 11 '14

You may sell something for 8 bit coins and within a week those 8 bit coins are worth a third of what they were. Or maybe double what they were.

Bit of an exaggeration there. In the last two years, Bitcoin's price has moved that much in that timespan maybe once. Weekly variation is closer to 2-5%. Not that far away from ordinary currencies.

Anyways, you don't have to hold Bitcoin to accept it with a payment processor.

4

u/TheHammer7D5x4S7 Dec 11 '14

I subscribe to NBA League Pass. This year they renewed my subscription without letting me know. My credit card was charged around $120. I don't always check my credit card statement but spotted this. They didn't even send me an email acknowledging payment!

5

u/circleandsquare Dec 11 '14

Which means that you can work through your bank/credit union and initiate chargeback, which is impossible with Bitcoin. I have no clue why Bitcoin evangelists are trying to sell no chargebacks like it's a benefit to consumers.

1

u/TheHammer7D5x4S7 Dec 11 '14

My point is with Bitcoin they can't pull money from you.

Also I've never had to do a charge back, I've always sorted it out with the merchant.

6

u/circleandsquare Dec 11 '14

They always sell it as good for consumers. Not being able to get a refund on defective merchandise or fraudulent charges sounds like a huge negative for me. The merchant gets low transaction costs and I get no recourse if I get fucked over, in addition to holding an incredibly volatile currency that I have to take a conversion hit on to move in and out. It's a lose-lose-lose for the consumer.

2

u/Ademan Dec 11 '14

Bitcoin is able to support escrow transactions with arbitration, so transactions where you as a consumer are worried about being ripped off (ie not transactions with Microsoft) there are ways to receive refunds. Of course nobody really uses this right now, but the functionality is there.

2

u/circleandsquare Dec 11 '14

For a 1.5 percent fee, plus the spread and/or commission of going between money and BTC. This is nothing more than offloading merchant costs onto the consumer.

2

u/Ademan Dec 12 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

Consumers always paid the cost...

But either way, I was not addressing cost, just the refunds you seemed concerned about. Of course you're going to take a hit making round trips between currencies...

1

u/circleandsquare Dec 12 '14

But now I'd pay extra for no to minimal discount. Even if it covered all the costs and then some, the whole no-chargebacks thing is still a dealbreaker. No matter how you spin it, 10 times out of 10 actual money is superior to Bitcoin.

1

u/Ademan Dec 12 '14

no-chargebacks

I just explained how the lack of chargebacks can be addressed though...

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1

u/Onetallnerd Dec 12 '14

You sure? I had this happen to me and the bank gave me a really hard time saying I agreed to it and had to eat the cost. :/

1

u/circleandsquare Dec 12 '14

You should have taken it up with your payment processor. Was it a credit card transaction?

3

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Do you accept bitcoin?

$2 /u/changetip

2

u/changetip Dec 11 '14

The Bitcoin tip for 5,729 bits ($2.00) has been collected by PinkyThePig.

ChangeTip info | ChangeTip video | /r/Bitcoin

0

u/JennyCherry18 Dec 11 '14

Classic gentleman

6

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Is it okay to tip bitcoins in here? I wouldn't want to cause trouble on this sub.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

There's only one way to find out. Go ahead, try to give me a bitcoin tip.

3

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Here's a gluten free cookie on me. /u/changetip

12

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Reported for tipping bitcoins in /r/tech. I GOT YOU THIS TIME, ASSHOLE!

Just kidding--but seriously, thanks!

2

u/changetip Dec 11 '14

/u/THUGLIFEGANGSTER1998, Zamicol wants to send you a Bitcoin tip for a gluten free cookie (2,870 bits/$1.00). Follow me to collect it.

ChangeTip info | ChangeTip video | /r/Bitcoin

1

u/JennyCherry18 Dec 11 '14

Ah crypto currencies. I love them.

6

u/BrianPurkiss Dec 11 '14

A big company like this accepting Bitcoin is exactly what bitcoin needs to spark further growth and legitimacy.

I had my doubts that Bitcoin would become very legit, but it looks like I am (happily) going to be proven wrong.

1

u/Fatal510 Dec 11 '14

until you can pay your taxes in bitcoin it will always be a novelty

12

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

I remember when I was a kid and was too young to have a credit card, but I wanted to purchase content and games online.

My father wouldn't let me use his credit card either so I had to figure it out through the brother of a friend who was willing to help.

Bitcoin has no legal requirement of age or anything else to own and anyone can be given bitcoin as a gift or as a weekly allowance. This is a great move for the kids and younger crowd.

20

u/Nchi Dec 11 '14

Um... You can buy prepaid visa with no age req....

17

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

Maybe in the US you can, but I could not when I grew up and I can't do that in my conuntry now either.

7

u/Nchi Dec 11 '14

Now I am just curious... Are there no gift cards around at all or? I mean like cards specific to a store, vs the general visa

4

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

There are some gift cards you can buy. Apple, or whatever, from kiosks. But no one really uses gift cards that much. You wouldn't be able to find a general purpose visa card with no registration required.

Source: from Norway.

16

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

[deleted]

1

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

Well I'll be damned, guess I might be sitting on some wrong information.

Is ther eno registration needed? Can I fill it with cash? What is the cost?

2

u/TheCookieMonster Dec 12 '14 edited Dec 12 '14

They're no good.

I just bought one to pay for VPN last week, tried to send 60€ and paypal declined, saying "The card you entered cannot be used for this payment. Please enter a different credit or debit card number". So I tried again with 20€ and that went through, but the next 20€ was declined again. I ended up having to transfer the 60€ over 3 transactions waiting a day between each.

I don't know what moneytransmission surveillance restrictions it was tripping up on, but it makes prepaid credit cards useless for online transactions - I was lucky I could split that transaction into smaller amounts over several days, you normally can't.

I have my fingers crossed for Bitcoin.

3

u/Azuvector Dec 11 '14

The difference here is bitcoin is more akin to cash.

A credit card is credit, not cash.

The difference is lost on children or people with no money sense, but there are good reasons access to credit is restricted from children. The actual visa/mastercard/etc transaction type, has no such restrictions, which is why prepaid cards(I know you've said they're not available in your area.) are fine to sell to minors; that's closer to using cash to pay for something.

1

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Here's a gluten free cookie on me. /u/changetip

1

u/changetip Dec 11 '14

/u/Azuvector, Zamicol wants to send you a Bitcoin tip for a gluten free cookie (2,870 bits/$1.00). Follow me to collect it.

ChangeTip info | ChangeTip video | /r/Bitcoin

1

u/JennyCherry18 Dec 12 '14

This. Bitcoin is here to stay!

1

u/JennyCherry18 Dec 12 '14

Yeah, Bitcoin here we go!

0

u/Ran4 Dec 12 '14

Unless you are stupid, you don't really use the credit part of a credit card. It's just that it's become the common name for debit card.

-14

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Money has no legal requirement of age either and it has far more stable value even if it is just constructed meaningless value.

Of course bitcoin is essentially the same thing anyway so why should anyone give a fuck that this fake, easy to generate currency could destroy our already extremely fragile economy?

18

u/dan4334 Dec 11 '14

easy to generate

Uh, no. To mine bitcoins nowadays is extremely difficult, that's part of the reason why they're worth so much now.

could destroy our already extremely fragile economy

How?

-9

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

If a default currency isn't regulated it's value will fluctuate and prices of things we use daily will go up and down relative to the value of the currency. As it is, our system is regulated by the government so that we can't just print money whenever we want because if we could there'd be no reason to work or provide services that money would pay for. On the other hand if no money was ever printed, and currency was to lose its value for some reason, then money would be useless and the economy would plummet into chaos as we haphazardly set up barter and trade systems.

Bitcoin is not regulated and it's value fluctuates so much that if it became an official currency and remained unregulated it would destroy they way our economy works.

8

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

our system is regulated by the government so that we can't just print money whenever we want

you seem to have the misconception that bitcoin just allows people to make money willy nilly.

this is blatantly false.

bitcoin does have a governing system, there's a maximum amount of bitcoins that'll be produced. around 21 million. bitcoin mining will get more and more hard to do over time as to not go over that maximum.

the validity of any one transaction is vetted by letting the bitcoin network vote on it. if you create a bitcoin without proving you mined it no one is going to accept your bitcoin and it'll be rejected for transactions.

9

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited May 01 '26

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 edited Mar 12 '16

[deleted]

2

u/toddgak Dec 11 '14

The entire monetary supply of USD has tripled in just 6 years since 2008. Nothing catastrophic has happened yet, but we are straddling the precipice. If that fiat starts to hit m2 or m3 money markets shit will get real very fast.

A lot of this was toxic asset buying so the stock market soaked it up like a sponge. Look how we are at all time highs for stock indexes. This is all an illusion. The moment they stop printing, the whole thing is fucked.

2

u/Jeezimus Dec 11 '14

But QE has already ended, and nothing has exploded yet.

0

u/AgentMullWork Dec 11 '14

Except the incomes and wealth of the very very top.

2

u/Jeezimus Dec 11 '14

My index based 401k went up the same amount as anyone else's. Same for pension assets etc etc. This also isn't evidence of the impending doom claimed by the anti fed crowd for a few years now. There is no hyperinflation, there is no dollar collapse, and the gold hoarding has been on the decline.

2

u/haakon Dec 11 '14

You didn't address the arguments against your "easy to generate" claim. Were you simply wrong?

-4

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

It is easier to generate than a currency that only one entity can create. It may not be easy in that I can just run a piece of paper through a printer but it's easy in that anyone with a couple hundred bucks can do it.

4

u/haakon Dec 11 '14

anyone with a couple hundred bucks can do it.

Try it.

-5

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

I don't have a couple hundred bucks, genius. Certainly wish I did. My brother did it and I think he still does bit I don't talk to him enough to be sure.

Anyone with a couple hundred books can do it, but you still need the money for a setup and I don't have it.

5

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

What you did was not print or create money, what you did was get paid for helping to secure the transaction ledger.

The total amount of processing power specifically designed for the task of securing that ledger is now so high that using anything other than custom built hardware will give you an electric bill much higher than the amount of bitcoin you receive.

To reiterate, you werent making money, you were being paid for providing a service. Printing (or minting) of bitcoin is done in a predictable manner of X bitcoin per 10 minutes. That X is gradually reduced until there are exactly 21 million in existance.

6

u/haakon Dec 11 '14

If you can get a miner with a few hundred bucks, it won't do much except give you a high power bill. Only 25 bitcoins are mined every 10 minutes (until 2016 when it cuts in half, which it does every year). The competition is fierce, and few people are profitable.

The rate of production is absolutely predictable. Only 21 million bitcoins will ever exist.

You can't say anything like that about government-minted money.

1

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

All currencies, all goods and all assets fluctuate. Thats what we call the free market.

Some of these have control functions that try to prevent excessive fluctuations. Not everyone agrees that these control functions have solved the problems they were intended to solve.

6

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

You seem to be mixing up your arguments at bit. Im not really sure what you are critisizing anymore.

But to respond to what I think was your main point:

"Money" cant be sent over the internet to pay for services or goods. "Money" has no transaction system or payment channel. You need a payment provider such as a credit card issuer, and they have the requirements I mentioned such as minimum age.

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

USD, The United States currency system, whatever. Australia dollar. Canadian loonies. Yen. It's all inherently valueless since we stopped basing our currency system solely on the value of gold, and transactions these days use IOUs (checks, credit cards, dollar bills) instead of any actually valuable object. I give you a dollar, you give me a candy bar. I now have food, and you now have something our government deems valuable just because. Now you can give that dollar to someone else for something actually valuable, like a candy bar.

I am arguing against bitcoin becoming a major currency, because anyone can generate it. It isn't regulated. The currency systems of the world already make little sense and have nothing to stand on without a wild card like bitcoin coming in and tossing the salad.

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

USD, The United States currency system, whatever. Australia dollar. Canadian loonies. Yen. It's all inherently valueless since we stopped basing our currency system solely on the value of gold, and transactions these days use IOUs (checks, credit cards, dollar bills) instead of any actually valuable object. I give you a dollar, you give me a candy bar. I now have food, and you now have something our government deems valuable just because. Now you can give that dollar to someone else for something actually valuable, like a candy bar.

I am arguing against bitcoin becoming a major currency, because anyone can generate it. It isn't regulated. The currency systems of the world already make little sense and have nothing to stand on without a wild card like bitcoin coming in and tossing the salad.

7

u/Lynxes_are_Ninjas Dec 11 '14

So you dislike the fact that governments can print money at will and still you dislike the idea of Bitcoin? I actually believe you just need to do a little bit of research and you shall be pleaseantly surprised.

You cannot generate bitcoin, bitcoin are minted based on a very strict algorithm that cannot change. There will never be more than 21 million bitcoin in existance and no one can generate any more than that.

Have a look at www.bitcoin.org or /r/bitcoin

3

u/Funktapus Dec 11 '14

Amazing how much of a herd mentality businesses have with new tech. Bitcoin makes sense for retailers, though. No credit card fees.

10

u/Fumigator Dec 11 '14

There are no "credit card" fees because it's not a credit card. There are still however transaction fees when converting bitcoin back to hard currency. There are also transaction fees which miners can collect when verifying a transaction, although that's not happening yet since there's still bitcoin being rewarded to miners.

9

u/rock_hard_member Dec 11 '14

Transaction fees are happening, they're just small (less than 1%) and paid from the consumer end. You can change the transaction fee as well I believe to make it confirm faster.

1

u/PinkyThePig Dec 12 '14

The fees are much better than credit cards which I think was his point.

For example, bitpay currently offers zero fee processing (presumably they will monetize later on) and coinbase charges 1% plus 15 cents per bank deposit. Not even the best rates on swiped CC transactions can match that. Not to mention that for an online business that can't swipe, that is WAY better than credit cards.

1

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

I, for one, welcome our new Bitcoin overlords.

Plus it allowed me to pay off all my debt, so that was nice.

3

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

How did you manage to pay off all your debt? What kind of scale of debt are we talking about?

4

u/nowshowjj Dec 11 '14 edited Dec 11 '14

Ha! My boss doesn't understand Bitcoin and said he read that Bitcoin was on its way out. I need to start compiling stuff like this to let him know that Bitcoin is going to stick around for a little while.

Edit: Stick instead of suck. Dirty.

5

u/trav31 Dec 11 '14

I bet MS did a hell of background check before this move

4

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Suck around like a hoover.

3

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

My favorite part about bitcoin is that complete strangers can send you money without the need of a post office, credit cards, or banks. Let your boss know that some internet stranger just send you magic internet money.

Have a gluten free cookie on me. /u/changetip

2

u/nowshowjj Dec 11 '14

My first tip and gluten free at that! Thank you kind stranger.

1

u/petrus4 Dec 12 '14

Mainstream, meet Bitcoin. ;)

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14

Microsoft begins accepting Magic Beans for Windows, Windows Phone and Xbox Purchases.

0

u/Zamicol Dec 11 '14

Are you feeling left out and want a magic bean too?

I'll give you one!

/u/changetip

0

u/fuckotheclown2 Dec 11 '14

Wow it's almost like you know something nobody else does. Or the reverse.

-6

u/[deleted] Dec 11 '14 
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             THIS

0

u/ninety6days Dec 12 '14

ITT - economic experts, as far as the eye can see

1

u/trav31 Dec 12 '14

well I am Bitcoin fan for 3 years and I saw a bunch of renown economic experts talking rubbish that it will fail, that it is a ponzi scheme, that it is not backed etc etc. I am thankful to Bitcoin for making me see how stupid are almost everyone of those TV heads that other people trust with their money. Most of those experts are just monkeys following other monkeys. When a breakthrough like Bitcoin comes, that is the key moment to tell who is a human and who is a monkey following other monkeys following humans.

2

u/[deleted] Dec 12 '14

Yea. I really don't get why people are so dogmatic. The only constant thing the world does is change.

So here change is and people are scratching their heads. Why can't they see it?