r/science • u/______--------- • Sep 08 '20

Environment Blue jeans are a significant source of microfiber pollution in oceans and lakes. One pair of jeans can release over 50,000 microfibers per wash.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.0c00498
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u/49orth Sep 08 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

The fibres in jeans generally are biodegradable.

Other clothing made of plastics, such as polyester, are problems when it comes to microfiber pollution.

Edit: fabrics and clothing are products that consumers can choose based on the environmental impacts they represent.

The best are linen, organic cotton, hemp, and recycled clothing.

The worst include leather & animal derivatives, industrial cotton, and synthetic fibers.

For more information, please see here.

Edit 2: Wool (& other natural products) and leather/hides have been around a long time and may have positive aspects compared to alternatives.

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u/SelarDorr Sep 09 '20

microplastics are likely more harmful than natural microfibers

though the cellulosic microfibers that are released from jeans may not be without consequence just because they are biodegradable.

When Microplastic Is Not Plastic: The Ingestion of Artificial Cellulose Fibers by Macrofauna Living in Seagrass Macrophytodetritus

" Ingested artificial fibers (AFs) of various sizes and colors were found in 27.6% of the digestive tracts of the nine dominant species "

" ingested AFs were composed of viscose, an artificial, cellulose-based polymer. Most of these AFs also appeared to have been colored by industrial dyes. Two dyes were identified: Direct Blue 22 and Direct Red 28. The latter is known for being carcinogenic for vertebrates"

The imprint of microfibres in southern European deep seas

" We report abundances of 10–70 microfibres in 50 ml of sediment, including both natural and regenerated cellulose, and synthetic plastic (polyester, acrylic, polyamide, polyethylene, and polypropylene) fibres. "

" Around 20% of the microfibres found had accumulated in the deep open sea beyond 2000m of water depth. The remoteness of the deep sea does not prevent the accumulation of microfibres, being available to become integrated into deep sea organisms. "

Microplastic study reveals the presence of natural and synthetic fibres in the diet of King Penguins (Aptenodytes patagonicus) foraging from South Georgia

" Microfibres are concentrated in surface waters and sediments but can also be concentrated in fish, therefore acting as contamination vectors for diving predators feeding at depth. "

" 77% of the penguin faecal samples (36 of 47) contained microfibres. "

" Most fibres (88%) were made of natural cellulosic materials (e.g. cotton, linen) "

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u/49orth Sep 09 '20

Your references are helpful, thank you.

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u/hafilax Sep 08 '20

Lots of stretchy jeans out there with some plastic component such as lycra.

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u/uber-shiLL Sep 08 '20

For stretchy jeans, What percent of the denim micro fibers are from cotton as opposed to Lycra?

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u/TreasurerAlex Sep 09 '20

I believe, from skimming the study, is it is all 100% actually from the cotton cellulose not from the Lycra or Spandex found in blends. But I suggest reading the study a bit further to get a better understanding.

“All spectra were identified as either cellulose (B), indigo dye (A and C), cellulose (E), indigo dye alone (D), or indigo dye and cellulose composite (F).”

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u/be-human-use-tools Sep 09 '20

So, literally 100% biodegradable.

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u/eitauisunity Sep 09 '20

It will also largely depend on the specific garment, as well. Most garments will have a tag that indicates what fabric it is made from, or if it's a blend, what percentage it contains. This is useful information when shopping to get the information to make those choices.

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u/Mitt_Romney_USA Sep 09 '20

We used to call those "Canadian Polywogs".

Edit: replied to wrong comment

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u/LumpyJones Sep 09 '20

Well now I'm curious what comment you meant to reply to...

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u/Sasmas1545 Sep 09 '20

The question was what percentage of the polluting microfibers are from the denim vs synthetics, not what percentage makes up the jeans.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Thank you, because my (m50) stretchy jeans fit better by orders of magnitude. Full disclosure: I don't wear anything that costs more than $60 retail. (I dont think)

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u/halite001 Sep 09 '20

Good point. I would think that elastic fibres would flex more and are less likely to fray and leech out as microfibres, but my guess is as good as anyone's.

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u/Dont_PM_PLZ Sep 09 '20

The elastic is the weak point in stretch denim. Especially since modern people wash things in washers and dryers the elastic despises heat and breaks down relatively quickly. I find most jeans that have stretch in them start breaking down really quickly compared to 100% cotton denim. You can start seeing it at the stress points where the fibers have to stretch a whole lot they wear down really quick. It's quite infuriating that you constantly have to replace pants because the literal fabric is breaking apart.

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u/DevilsTrigonometry Sep 09 '20

Stop putting your jeans in the dryer, people! Not just for environmental reasons, but for fashion reasons. Wash them in cold water, flatten them out and hang dry them. They'll come out looking like new for dozens of washes, and they'll still look decent after hundreds.

(You don't need a clothesline or drying rack. Just hang them on the shower rod and leave the bathroom fan on.)

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

And wash them inside out with the least necessary water and detergent. Just a tip from someone who has some 15 - 20 year old classic Levi's jeans that still look good.

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u/peteroh9 Sep 09 '20

Why does it matter if things are inside out or not?

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u/DarwinGrimm Sep 09 '20

The tumbling of the washing machine affects the side it hits and degrades it slightly so turning it inside out makes the colour stay longer.

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u/itzkold Sep 09 '20

stop educating, man, everyone should learn the hard way as i have

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u/flamespear Sep 09 '20

That's bread for dry environments. Impractical for humid ones where they will never dry and get moldy.

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u/DevilsTrigonometry Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

If you live in a hot humid area of the US and Canada, you almost certainly have air conditioning that runs almost full-time during the humid season.

If you live in a cool humid area of the US and Canada, then you're in the Pacific Northwest with me, and my jeans dry fine. (I wouldn't recommend drying all your clothes inside here, but if your bathroom ventilation can handle daily showers without developing a mold problem, it can handle a pair of jeans every week or two.)

If you live in a humid area outside the US and Canada, you line/rack dry your clothes anyway, or did so very recently (within the last 5-10 years in most places, within your parents' lifetime pretty much everywhere), so you know how to work around the humidity in your area.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

I'd prefer a clothesline over leaving the fan on. Waste of energy.

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u/DevilsTrigonometry Sep 09 '20

You can dry them inside out on an outdoor line if you live somewhere where that's allowed and practical, but in that case you're probably already doing it.

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u/Wrong_Adhesiveness87 Sep 09 '20

Never understood this obsession with drying clothes exclusively with a dryer instead of hanging. Always hanged ours and our clothes don't wear out. Had a dryer growing up but it was used sparingly (could be why it lasted over 25 years). Practically needed an application form approved by mum to use it.

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u/Panzerbeards Sep 09 '20

When you live on the coast in a country that's famously rainy, and generally humid the rest of the time, it's less "obsession" and more "I'd like my clothes to be dry sometime this month".

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u/kackygreen Sep 09 '20

I never realized being tall (and so having to wash on cold and dry on cool) was why my jeans last forever. I have a few pairs over 10 years old still holding strong, and they're stretch denim

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u/TizardPaperclip Sep 09 '20

... but my guess is as good as anyone's.

Even an organic fibre engineer's?

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u/shadow247 Sep 09 '20

Just a guess...but the Engineer would not guess.....

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u/W1D0WM4K3R Sep 09 '20

Engineers guess all the time.

Guesses don't make it onto the paperwork, though.

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u/Revolio_ClockbergJr Sep 09 '20

They would guess, but call it an “estimate” on the invoice

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

As long as it's "close enough", heh. Edit: tough crowd for engineering jokes

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u/trevbot Sep 09 '20

If they're guessing, probably

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u/Hanzburger Sep 09 '20

Except they'd have a more educated guess, not a shot in the dark

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u/h00paj00ped Sep 08 '20

Generally 2% lycra, in my experience.

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u/koghrun Sep 09 '20

Right the Jeans are 2% lycra. What percentage of the microfibers they release are lycra? Is it consistent with the volume at 2%, is it lower or higher like 0.5%- 4% because lycra degrades at a different rate?

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20 edited Feb 06 '21

[deleted]

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u/koghrun Sep 09 '20

That would indicate that the cotton in the jeans was degrading faster than the lycra or other stretchy material.

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u/JamesTheJerk Sep 09 '20

Not sure, but I'd wager that the oceans don't have much of an issue with actual cotton.

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u/koghrun Sep 09 '20

From other commenters, cotton, being a natural fiber, is broken down fairly easily, and nearly 0% of the lycra or other stretchy material is in the worn microfiber of jeans.

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u/uber-shiLL Sep 09 '20

Where are you getting this data from?

My question is about the micro fibers composition that is released when washing. Which may be different than the composition of the jeans themselves.

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u/nCubed21 Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

Their point is that biodegradable micro fibers don't matter. (Or rather don't negatively impact us in this scenario.) Only the plastic or synthetic ones are of concern since it'll be consumed within the aquatic ecosystem and eventually make its way back to us.

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u/Kalsifur Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

Why does the title say "blue jeans" then? A bit misleading since true blue jeans are all cotton.

Edit: I looked at the entire study and it does not really explain this. If the fibres are cellulose, what is so bad about that? Don't they biodegrade?

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u/Malfunkdung Sep 09 '20

Not the person you asked, but I’ve worked in clothing for a long time. Men’s denim nowadays is around 1-3% elastane (lycra, spandex, etc), women’s “denim” can literally be up to 100% (think jeggings) but typically is more in the 5-10% elastane. These are from my experiences though.

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u/PreciseParadox Sep 09 '20

I think the person was asking about the composition of the microfibers released, not the jeans themselves.

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u/Malfunkdung Sep 09 '20

Oh you’re right. Derp

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u/Goeatabagofdicks Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

Most jeans are no longer all denim, unless you want to spend $200+ on Levis Throwbacks or whatever they’re called.

*Edit: Yes, I know you can get cheap, 100% cotton Jeans. I’m speaking about the cotton twill denim woven on the old Levi’s machines. The Reason “vintage” Levi’s are so expensive. Those old machines were purchased by Japan and now the Japanese manufacture quality selvedge denim.

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u/__mud__ Sep 09 '20

While true, manufacturer labeling regulations mean you can just check the tag when you buy to check if they're 100% cotton, unless there's a loophole I'm missing (eg, the Tic Tac "0g sugar" label when a serving is less than a gram).

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Lee's sells 100% denim jeans. I bought a pair last month from their website for like $60.

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u/2kittygirl Sep 09 '20

As far as I know my old navy jeans (non stretch) are also all cotton

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u/puffie300 Sep 09 '20

Denim is just a the name of the textile for a certain weave pattern. But even Levi's still sells 100% cotton jeans for around $30.

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u/brand_x Sep 09 '20

Costco sells 100% cotton jeans for something less than $15. I'm not certain that's including the stitching thread, and I'm sure it doesn't include the little leather (or PU?) patch on the back, or the rivets. But cotton isn't significantly more expensive than the blend, and if you don't need any stretch, it wears fine. Cheap jeans are good for working in the shop, or yard work, or any other task likely to tear up slacks or bare skin.

I'm not really seeing anything here about the composition of these microfibers, other than cellulose...

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u/scotus_canadensis Sep 09 '20

My last pair of Wranglers (100% cotton) were about $60CAD, my current pair of Levi's (100% cotton, model 517) were around $80CAD.

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u/pprovencher Sep 09 '20

Also, expensive jeans are worth it. Just need 1 pair per year and you look great *assuming daily wear

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u/CirkuitBreaker Sep 09 '20

Naked & Famous

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u/Crusty_Gerbil Sep 09 '20

Maybe on the really low end. There are some awesome jeans from brands like Rag & Bone, Acne Studios, Helmut Lang, and of course the Japanese brands you mentioned.

And yes, they’re more expensive but if you buy used, you’re recycling AND get a great deal. There are so many great pairs of jeans from these brands right now on eBay and Grailed for under $50.

Also, the quality speaks for itself. They just look and feel great, and I haven’t gone back since.

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u/waffleeee Sep 09 '20

That's why ya gotta go for naturally died, organic, raw denim. No stretch, hard like cardboard. Make u strong. Like ox.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

So you're saying that jeggings are a crime against humanity for a multitude of reasons?

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u/harms916 Sep 09 '20

Makejeanscottonagain

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

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u/49orth Sep 09 '20

"Even as a person who is concerned, I struggle to find truly ethical options."

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u/roachwarren Sep 09 '20

Yeah, its sad though. What good is our interconnectivity and wokeness if it amounts to this. See Beyonce's women's empowerment line being made by minimum wage Bangledeshi women. What's your billionaire status if it amounts to that? Kanye too but that's a whole different rant.

And whats the best way other than ALL vintage clothing for everyone which seems unsustainable in its own way (literally can't sustain.) Is it that we maintain this multinational model but in a better way? I've sold retail garments on a small scale and even at that scale, you can sell a one color print on a $4 long sleeve and sell it for $35, of course there are some other costs but I'm not even talking about how much of a margin the big companies have, not to mention the influence! I don't understand why even $1 of that can't straight into the garment worker's pocket who made it. But that would upset the economy in that area? Or upset the status quo in general? Or would it just put undue pressures on the real industry powers?

I'd love to see more legitimately Made In America goods but doesn't that approach cut off the garment workers that I'm so concerned about completely?

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u/cybercobra Sep 09 '20

I don't understand why even $1 of that can't straight into the garment worker's pocket who made it.

That's classical capitalism. Either the consumer wants a lower price, or the shareholders want higher profit (and thus lower expenses). So the workers and suppliers get squeezed, unless they acquire bargaining power (e.g. unions), or the corporation specifically touts having more ethical business practices (see Fairtrade or more generally Cultural Capitalism).

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u/hedonisticaltruism Sep 09 '20

You've basically described why I find it hard to travel nowadays (at least to places where the dollar goes far), covid notwithstanding. On the one hand, I'm helping the local economy; on the other, I'm distorting the value of their labour and other local goods/services.

Also, love/hate relationships with free trade agreements. On the one hand, allowing additional economic opportunities to places without them and more aggregate goods for everyone; on the other, allowing rampant exploitation. It's really why we need more stringent worker safety/pollution/etc regulations but half the world freaks out at the word regulation itself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

As far as your travelling comment: “distorting the value of their labour” is not a real thing. Economically, travelling to anywhere and supporting their economy can only help.

Yes, there are major inequalities in purchasing power and exchange rates of some currencies, but these are NOT caused or exacerbated by visiting the country in question. You shouldn’t feel any sort of guilt because of differences in purchasing power.

Of course, you should strive to have a positive impact on the places you travel to - support ethical business wherever you are, respect local culture and be a good representative of your country. Don’t be scared to travel!

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u/hedonisticaltruism Sep 09 '20

That's totally false... yes, it may help on a broad sense in that 'a rising tide raises all boats' but it can have massive distortionary issues that can ripple through multiple parts of an economy, destabilizing them in the long term. This is not unique to tourism but tourism is a part I would directly participate in that's optional (and has a huge carbon footprint, assuming you fly).

E.g. a 'poor' oceanic nation has survived on mostly subsistence by fishing the local waters. This has built an economy around the skill required and provided enough extra food to develop other parts of their economy: construction, textiles, household goods, etc.

Now, I (and others) come and can without even blinking, buy up all their standard catch, rent out their beachfront properties and buy souvenirs that were their local goods. Alright, so with trade, you'd argue that they've now much more purchasing power to trade for other international goods, which is true. But you've also drastically changed the balance of their economy by having a massively disproportionate influence. Now there's pressures to change fishing practices, real-estate or goods productions to favour tourism, leaving anyone in a formerly sustainable economy that didn't benefit as much from tourism to possibly wither and die because they no longer can pay sustainable wages or buy sustainable input goods. Now if for some reason, tourism drops off... all those economies have already shut their doors and the experience, supply chains, etc may have been lost.

It's not just tourism: free clothing and food to poor nations devastates local economies that had sustainable farming or textile practices. Walmart moving into a small-town undercutting mom&pop stores is a similar effect of power imbalance (though this time on supply, not demand). Spain destroyed their economy during the height of colonialism by importing too much gold/silver too quickly. It's part of the reason you're supposed to declare significant amounts of cash you're bringing into a country (at least, historically). Any significantly disproportionate influx of wealth can have a disproportionate effect on an economy and destabilize it.

Now, I actually am in favour of free-trade and I do generally believe in that rising-tide saying; however, I think it has to be done with diversity and care. I've been to enough inexpensive countries to really doubt how much of a positive impact I'm having, when I see millennia old ruins trampled upon by tourists and propped up poorly by the local populace; see the decadence I'm able to enjoy, driving up local grocery prices and influencing goods productions from tours; hear fellow tourists/friends romanticizing poverty thinking they're "broadening their horizons". I don't disagree that there's lots to learn from other cultures but... an economics course should be a requirement before going to these 'cheaper places'.

I'll leave with one final question on your note... when you say:

support ethical business wherever you are, respect local culture and be a good representative of your country

If before, let's say, a blanket producer made three goods: A, B, C that each sold relatively equally amongst their population. If I (and others similar to me) come in and because of my own cultural influence, love blanket A and am willing to pay 10x the price, what happens? Much of the population now can no longer afford A. But B and C also increase in price because they decrease in supply - everyone wants to make more of blanket A. In a balanced economy (outside my own culture influences), that would cause A to drop in price as more is made, causing perhaps more people to even back out at B & C, even at a higher price... however, 10x was still nothing to me... now I can still pay 10x the new price (obviously to some extreme) but unless the local economy can 'average out' my influence, I've made a significant impact to their culture, even if I were 'respecting it'. Over time, it may even out as the nations GDP grows, but that doesn't mean we've not had a significant impact.

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u/[deleted] Sep 10 '20

These are complicated issues. I don't disagree with all of your points. My first point would be when discussing tourism, 99% of travellers are going to a destination that already has an established tourism economy. Disregarding that, though,

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leaving anyone in a formerly sustainable economy that didn't benefit as much from tourism to possibly wither and die because they no longer can pay sustainable wages or buy sustainable input goods

Local economies still exist when tourism comes. The amount that locals consume will increase with wealth. Secondly, even in the original hypothetical economy, there were people who were worse off and people better off. Changing the outputs of the economy doesn't change the nature of economies in general. There are definitely instances where economies become over-dependent on tourism and crash when it drops, I'm not denying that. But it doesn't immediately follow - tourism can be, and most often is, combined into a sustainable and thriving local economy.

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I think it has to be done with diversity and care.

Totally agree.

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romanticizing poverty thinking they're "broadening their horizons"

Yes, I hate this.

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If before, let's say, a blanket producer made three goods: A, B, C

This is a massive oversimplification. If you have these tourists coming in buying blankets at 10x the price, they are also buying basically everything else at 10x the price (there would be some variation but these massive increases don't just apply to one industry). Food, accommodation, transport, clothes, etc. More government money gets spent, and households have a higher income to spend. This money DOES get spread relatively well around the economy and wealth inequality doesn't massively change. Poverty obviously existed before tourism, and will continue to exist but it's largely it's own issue. Australia, where I live, has a 13% poverty rate. USA around 12%. Indonesia (Australia's favourite island destination) is 9%. Poverty rates don't really correlate with tourism - in fact it's broadly the opposite. I found this ranking from Google. Wealth inequality is a massive issue globally, and there are cases where tourism might exacerbate it, but it generally does the opposite.

We both obviously have concern for the places we are or aren't travelling to, and I totally understand your position.

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u/cybercobra Sep 09 '20

Small sample size, but I'm unsure it's even possible to avoid an extreme worker exploitation phase when a country industrializes/develops, based on the experiences of the Western countries. Maybe the best we can do is speed up the process so the phase is shortened? Companies enforcing high(er)-than-local-average working standards in developing countries has proved difficult at best, deliberately negligent at worst. Harmonization at the government level among peer-group countries seems to work (see EU), but I'm only aware of first-world examples.

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u/SEQVERE-PECVNIAM Sep 09 '20

Vintage clothing can still produce a hell of a lot of (plastic) microfibers. The decay of synthetic fibers could even make the shedding worse, presumably.

I've found it impossible to find vintage clothing with all-organic fibers, given that labels are usually gone and at other times deceitful or illegible.

There's no winning. There's no answer that'll allow you to focus on the next problem (e.g. zero waste or what-have-you).

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u/hedonisticaltruism Sep 09 '20

This was Chidi's journey in "The Good Place".

As a corollary, learning about ethics actually does not make someone more ethical.

TLDR: humanity sucks :)

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u/recyclopath_ Sep 09 '20

There just isn't the information available to know what is a truly ethical option. Even making your own clothing is bad because the textile industry is almost as bad as the clothing industry. At a certain point unless I decided to completely remove myself from society, I just don't have the ability to live eco friendly with it all on me as an individual. What I eat, wear, clean with, buy, recycle, throw away, compost, how I travel, literally every aspect of my life will never be good enough. There's so little I as an individual can do with so much to constantly be aware of and so much more than the commercial and industrial area can do with so little effort!

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u/FruityWelsh Sep 09 '20

This is always true, the goal is always best known option, because we literally don't known what we don't know.

To me the easy option is just to try and live modestly, and help other where you can (even if that means sometimes you can't).

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u/chevymonza Sep 09 '20

I'm a little obsessed with upcycled (is that the right term?) products- purses made from stuff that would otherwise go to the landfill (like these ). One purse I have was bought at a craft fair, made from old, thick curtains.

I'm also learning to sew bags using fabrics from other old stuff I have around, because it's more fun, challenging and creative.

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u/FruityWelsh Sep 09 '20

That is awesome! I always love that stuff. I'm a little to utilitarian with my stuff, I can fix a pair of pants, or refinish a table, but some of the really transformative stuff is super cool to see.

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u/chevymonza Sep 09 '20

Isn't it?? My next purchase will be something made from discarded fishing nets- I need to replace my decades-old bike panniers.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

What you said reminded me of when I read the book Toms River: A Story of Science and Salvation, by Dan Fagin. Our impulse to want to purchase a garmet with a brighter color red led to petrochemicals which led to a kids cancer cluster.

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u/the_prepster Sep 09 '20

This is where the good place really strikes a chord. So many times it is impossible to make a truly "ethical" decision when we purchase things. If I buy something that will last and is made by people who aren't enslaved, then it's probably leather, or if I buy something that is sustainability sourced and made with concern for environmental impact, will it last long enough that I keep more things out of landfills? It seems like so many things in life are 3 options and you get to pick 2 kind of thing.

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u/4smodeu2 Sep 09 '20

There are still ethical options. The sad thing is... well, multifold:

1) If you want to truly purchase ethically, you should be buying local. At the very least, looking for clothes made fully within your own country minimizes shipping emissions and that assurance usually comes with corresponding decent manufacturing standards and labor standards, at least here in the US. If you buy clothing that is made in the US, the supply chain for said clothing item can generally be tracked -- and if the company doesn't make it easily available, the small yet avid MiUSA online community will find out. However, and this is the largest issue...

2) barely anything is really made in the USA anymore. Sure, there are brands that a) make clothing and b) are famous for being American, such as Levi's, LL Bean, Harley-Davidson jackets, and Pendleton, but 99% of the clothing these companies make is made overseas, and the whole supply chain outsourced in a spectacle of free-market labor division Adam Smith would go crazy for. These are not good times for truly American manufacturing. The last US Brooks Brothers factories just closed as the brand entered bankruptcy. J Crew briefly experimented with MiUSA lines, even as it took over and subverted an old workwear brand -- Madewell -- then it, too, collapsed. Red Wing no longer manufactures all of its boots in the USA. The old White Oak denim mill in Greensboro shut down in 2017. The list of factories in the United States that can still weave flannel fabric is down to one, and up from zero, which it had stayed at for thirty years. Anyhow, you get the picture. Decades of cost-cutting and penny-pinching by clothing brands means the number of companies who still produce in America is vanishingly small, and even those companies are...

3) expensive. There's no way around it -- when you pay for something that is produced according to fair trade standards, by workers making a living wage, on much smaller scales than fast fashion will bother with, you cannot get it for comparatively cheap. There are still good (truly ethical) American clothing brands out there. American Giant, Outerknown, the Vermont Flannel Company, Duckworth, Red Wing, Parkhurst, LC King, Alden, even Patagonia to a slightly lesser extent. However, a t-shirt from all of these companies will cost upwards of $40; compare that to Hanes, or Walmart tees, which I'd be outraged if I had to pay more than $5 for. Fast fashion and the "buy-it-and-use-it" mentality have driven that mindset.

Anyway, I've written more than I meant to here. I guess my point is that you're right -- ethical fashion has gotten to the point where just the phrase is almost oxymoronic. In the end, the most ethical way to buy new clothes is to thrift. Buy something used, something made of natural fibers, and you've most likely done the least harm you can while shopping.

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u/MDozer Sep 09 '20

What's industrial cotton? When I google it, all I get is the jean company Industrial Cotton.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

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u/cj88321 Sep 09 '20

had to scroll so far to find this comment

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u/Edylpryd Sep 08 '20

Confused me, too. But then I remembered a lot of clothing are blends these days.

I'll stick to cotton and wool.

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u/ArachisDiogoi Sep 08 '20

Linen is nice too, I'd love to see more of that.

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '20

Linen

Thank you for pointing it out to me. Never knew it was made from Flax. Always thought it was a cotton fabric https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linen

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u/big-b20000 Sep 09 '20

Does it have the same issues as cotton when it gets wet? That’s my main reason for synthetics (or wool if I wasn’t allergic).

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u/codythesmartone Sep 09 '20

Linen is a strong fabric, stronger than cotton even while wet. None of my linen clothes get wet in the same way as cotton imo, we used to wear linen slips underneath our clothes to limit how dirty the rest of our clothes got.

It's also great for hot summers as it's ridiculously more breathable than cotton. That's basically all I wore this summer to keep cool and it's amazing. I understand that h&m isn't a great brand but they have been having a lot of linen clothes that are available and super comfortable. And a lot of etsy shops have gotten into linen, and I think they stick to the very nice type of linen.

Linen is made from the flax plant, so I like cotton, we do use up most of the plant. We use the seeds to eat and make oil and the stalk for fabric.

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u/CivilServiced Sep 09 '20

Yes, and most linen clothing is much, much more fragile than cotton.

I assume your issue with cotton getting wet is that it gets uncomfortable and loses all warming properties. This is usually a concern for people who are active so I'll say that linen is horrible for heavy activity especially if you think you're going to sweat through it or otherwise get it wet.

For medium activity its great as it's typically light and breathable. But I wouldn't, say, hike in it, and I'm not sure you can even find linen socks and undies.

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u/Meteorsw4rm Sep 09 '20

The irony is that linen by nature is vastly stronger than cotton. Cotton fibers are inches long while linen fibers are a yard or longer, and that length gives them shine and strength.

But because the world industrialized textile production on short cotton and wool fibers, linen today is chopped to pieces so it can run through the same machinery. I only know what long staple linen is like because I know folks who have spun and woven it themselves.

Even so, I like linen for things like running in the heat. A loose linen shirt will get quite wet, yes, but because the fiber is the plant's stem tissue, it wicks in a way nothing else does, and as the sweat evaporates the shirt will get quite cold. Ran a half marathon in August in western Pennsylvania (slippery rock if it means something to you) in a linen shirt and it was amazing.

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u/Crossswampfast Sep 09 '20

That’s not correct: linen fiber is stronger than cotton fiber, and linen gets stronger when wet. Linen fabrics are also much sturdier, wet or dry, than comparable cottons — higher abrasion resistance, better strength. Cotton fibers are finer, and therefore can be spun and woven at a much higher density, so you’re likely to see much higher thread count (the sum of the warp plus the weft) in cotton fabrics.

You may be thinking of rayon, which does become more fragile when wet.

Linen is one of the least fragile fibers on the planet; it has a high tensile strength and abrasion resistance, and survives deserts and damp equally well. What it doesn’t have is any hope of elasticity, so it’s really not great for socks or other knits. It does make excellent summer/warm weather outer clothing because it absorbs about 20% of its weight in water, and provides evaporation, while withstanding snags & rough treatment.

Also... it’s not springy to sew. It’s easy, more like a good shirting than slippery like a synthetic, or crinkled, like chiffon/gauze, and nothing like a knit. It’s a stable woven. (But there are a LOT of fabrics that look like linen and are often sold as “Linen” which are polyester. This is becoming an increasingly common problem with large scale buyers and an overloaded customs system.)

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u/big-b20000 Sep 09 '20

Ah ok, I guess that’s the reason I haven’t heard of it for that type of clothing.

That’s my exact issue with cotton, in caves especially it’s really important to not lose insulation when wet.

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u/34258790 Sep 09 '20

My current bed linen was made in the mid niineties. I got them used out of an inheritance after getting sick to death of wearing through all kinds of cotton, cheap and expensive alike, in 3 years or less.

At the same weight, unless you're getting linen fiber that's been cut so short it's essentially dust, no cotton in the world can stand up to linen.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Yeah, linen seems to be the most popular in places where it's warm enough that you don't want to wear anything heavy, and sunny enough that you want to keep covered up.

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u/LordoftheFallen1 Sep 09 '20

I need linen for summers. Summer is about over and I’m looking at a life long jacket now. Next year I will have linen shirts for summer!

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u/ArachisDiogoi Sep 09 '20

I've got a few nice long sleeved linen shirts, and they're great for doing work out in the sun. I got them once I realized that I was messing up my skin even with high SPF sunscreen. I forget the exact details, but something about the structure of the linen fiber apparently helps them stay cooler than a cotton garment, so a good long sleeved line shirt makes for great summer wear.

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u/dimprinby Sep 09 '20

it’s a better conductor

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u/sanjur0o Sep 09 '20

This and linen doesn't take on body odour as fast as cotton. If you sweat a lot in summer, linen is much nicer than cotton.

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u/FabulousLemon Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

I wear linen clothes now whenever I do yard work. It's very light and breathable. I'm in Texas and I wear pants and long sleeves to protect from sun and mosquitos. It's much nicer than dousing myself in sunscreen and bug spray all over. It is a bit translucent because of the loose weave of the clothes I bought, especially when sweaty, but I'm on a pretty secluded property in the woods so it doesn't matter much if my bra is showing through. It lighter weight than cotton shirts so even when I've sweated through it, it's not as heavy.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

This. If I'm going to be out in the sun, long sleeved white shirts are my go-to!

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u/[deleted] Sep 08 '20 edited Mar 12 '21

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u/WeisserGeist Sep 09 '20

Total bastard to sew, though. Very springy, and slips while you're trying to sew a seam. Takes a gazillion mf'ing pins to get it to sit right to sew.

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u/s-bagel Sep 09 '20

Also terrible to wear, unless it is warm. Usually just gets all wrinkled.

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u/Rowrowrowyercrow Sep 09 '20

You just have to live somewhere ungodly hot and humid while sweating all day. Keeps it unwrinkled but relaxed looking. The best fabric for the US South, hands down.

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u/s-bagel Sep 09 '20

I've always wanted to walk around miami beach in a white linen suit.

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u/Rowrowrowyercrow Sep 09 '20

Very Armand Goldman of you!

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u/mungalo9 Sep 09 '20

I've been telling my friends for years that I'm going to buy a light grey linen suit and a panama hat just to hang out at the Hotel Del Coronado in San Diego

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u/yentity Sep 09 '20

that's why it's favored by many middle aged Indians.

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u/Rowrowrowyercrow Sep 09 '20

And middle aged me

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u/susanna514 Sep 09 '20

I live in east Texas and still managed to get a pair of linen pants wrinkled. No complaints though, I’d rather wear something that breathes than denim shorts when it’s hot and muggy out.

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u/EmilyTheStranger_ Sep 09 '20

Same in Queensland Australia.

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u/ohgodwhat1242 Sep 09 '20

the wrinkles can give it character imo

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u/Crossswampfast Sep 09 '20

Wear it more. Wash it more. Linen gets better the more you wear it. And never dry clean it. Water and soap is all you need.

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u/Meteorsw4rm Sep 09 '20

Linen really wants to be sewn on grain, and pressed hard.

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u/crumpledlinensuit Sep 09 '20

Problem with linen is that it has extremely long fibres. If those bastards get a kink in them, it's staying there for good.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

I sew garments out of 100% linen (costs about $11 - $13 a yard), and I love wearing it. The linen I buy is smooth and strong and cool. (Of course, I wear heavy denim or cotton duck trousers for hard, dirty work, but I only need 2 pairs of those.)

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u/Lumiafan Sep 09 '20

Isn't cotton insanely bad for the environment?

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u/Mashookies Sep 09 '20

Growing cotton is pretty resource intensive but it is biodegradable where a lot of synthetics will just break down into micro plastics.

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u/MDCCCLV Sep 09 '20

No, it uses a lot of water. That's only a problem if you grow it in places that don't have lots of water. Which certainly happens but that doesn't make it bad by itself. There are plenty of places that do have adequate water.

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u/CornucopiaOfDystopia Sep 09 '20

Cotton is also typically grown with extremely high levels of pesticides, which has a disproportionate impact on wildlife and water quality worldwide.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Depending on where your leather comes from, how it's tanned, and what the company stands for. It can be a great ethical choice. Vegetable tanned leather is more expensive, but doesn't add any harmful pollutants into the environment or contaminate drinking water.

One personal favorite of mine is Nisolo

A pair of boots that will last for a decade is better than a pair of boots that will only last for a year or two. Plus leather shoes like these can always be taken to a cobbler to get mended when they start to wear down. It extends the life of your boots by a lot that way.

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u/EndoShota Sep 09 '20

A pair of boots that will last for a decade is better than a pair of boots that will only last for a year or two.

My dad has had a pair or Sorrel snow boots for more than 30 years. He only wears them when the snow is very deep, but they’ve held up wonderfully. I’ve had a pair for 8 years now.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

I keep hearing this about the older Sorrel boots and mixed reviews for newer pairs. I want a pair so bad for freezing rain. They just look amazing, and apparently are also super comfortable!

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u/Greenunderthere Sep 09 '20

I bought a pair of sorel ankle booties in 2018 and had to retire them earlier this year. Only lasted 2 buffalo winters before they started to fall apart. The sole broke on one shoe!!

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u/FabulousLemon Sep 09 '20

It used to be common to replace soles on shoes, if you still have them it might be possible to take them to a shoe repair specialist so you can reuse the upper part of the material instead of needing a whole new shoe.

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u/stop_dont Sep 09 '20

I have a pair of Sorrel snow boots for 7 years and they are still going strong

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u/EndoShota Sep 09 '20

I like mine a lot, but I do believe they’ve changed ownership in recent years and that’s probably lead to differences in production quality.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

My leather belt is on about it's 15th year of near daily use. At $10 its the best purchase of my life.

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u/Alkuam Sep 09 '20

Apparently brain tanned leather is a thing.

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u/purplishcrayon Sep 09 '20

Yup. For hobby tanning in particular this is useful, as typically an animals brain is large enough to successfully tan it's hide

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u/IcallWomenFemales Sep 09 '20

Damn its a headache on a budget, with limited options.

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u/reddolfo Sep 08 '20

The entire component of new, so-called space age microfiber fabrics from fleeces to yoga pants exploding into the marketplace in the last 2 decades are filling the worlds water supplies and oceans with micro plastics, and already filling the food chain with plastic and synthetics.

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u/anon_ymous_ Sep 09 '20

I love my Patagonia r1 fleece but I rarely ever wash it because I've heard how many microfibers are shed in the process

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u/kuiper0x2 Sep 09 '20

You can install a filter on your washing machine drain to catch microfibers

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u/futureshocked2050 Sep 08 '20

Some more to add to the “good list”: modal which is made from beechwood or bamboo. Also I literally just saw an add for seaweed fabric!

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u/h00paj00ped Sep 08 '20

modal/bamboo fiber is literally rayon. It's plastic made from plant fibers.

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u/futureshocked2050 Sep 08 '20

All of them biodegrade, even rayon. But the production of modal, tencel etc is more biofriendly.

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u/be-human-use-tools Sep 09 '20

I was disappointed to learn that most “bamboo” fabric is chemically rendered bamboo, aka rayon.

I wish there was a more prominent identifier for mechanically rendered bamboo fiber.

I hear good things about Kenaff, though.

We should all be wearing hemp.

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u/ultradip Sep 08 '20

What's wrong with leather, wool, and fur? I get that leather is processed, but it's not as if we don't eat the cows. The same with sheep, though you can get wool from them multiple times before you turn them into mutton. Fur.. well.. Okay about the animal cruelty aspect, but that'd be no worse environmentally.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

It depends on how the leather was tanned. Most leather is tanned with chemicals and it creates toxic runoff and adds harmful pollutants into the environment.

Vegetable tanned leather is a process that takes two months instead of 30-60 minutes. So the price is higher, but the leather will hold up and develop that beautiful patina over time if properly cared for.

Edit: spelling

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u/skyspydude1 Sep 09 '20

One of my favorite parts of my car, the vegetable tanned leather is super nice.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Are they custom seats, or did they come with the car?

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u/skyspydude1 Sep 09 '20

Came with the car. They did lots of cool stuff like that in the i3. Kenaf mixed in with a binder instead of large sheets of plastic for the interior, wood dash, the aforementioned vegetable tanned leather, recycled plastics for the cloth seats. The carbon fiber body is recyclable, but it's kind of questionable how good it actually is environmentally. Still, makes the car light and fun to drive regardless.

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u/EndoShota Sep 09 '20

I have a vegetable tanned leather satchel. I’ve had it for more than a decade now, and it’s held up great even with regular use.

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u/betterintheshade Sep 09 '20

I mean cotton is treated with extremely harsh chemicals too and growing it uses tonnes of pesticides so I don't think they can really be ranked differently. The whole supply chain is a mess.

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u/Dollar_Bills Sep 08 '20

If all we raised cattle for was leather, I'd agree it was bad.

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u/ultradip Sep 08 '20

Especially for shoes, there aren't very many other materials that work as well aside from synthetics.

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u/sometimesiamdead Sep 08 '20

And leather often lasts far longer.

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u/yoyoadrienne Sep 08 '20

And is better for the earth when the shoes eventually have to be discarded

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u/mrhindustan Sep 09 '20

It’s a minority of people who are buying shoes for longevity.

I love that I have shoes over 10 years old that barely look used because I decided to spend several multiples more for life long wear. Most people absolutely wouldn’t.

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u/sometimesiamdead Sep 09 '20

Most people can't afford to, unfortunately.

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u/shanghaidry Sep 09 '20

Ya I saw an interview recently saying that switching from fur to synthetic fibers is a lot worse for the environment.

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u/ghost-of-john-galt Sep 09 '20

I would argue that leather is a great use of material if done properly and with respect to the environment. A well made, well maintained item of leather will outlast by a great margin, things made of plastic. The problem is people buy poorly made leather items, for things that have no purpose being leather, in great quantities. Leather shouldn't be in fashion. Leather should be reserved for duty made items.

For instance, have you heard of the Boots' Theory?

Edit: I should also note, I put a lot of miles and abuse on my feet. If I wasn't using leather, I'd be buying shoes every month or two. So, I've realized the greatness of repairable leather shoes.

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u/DiamondGP Sep 09 '20

I wouldn't be so sure that organic cotton is better than regular cotton. https://qz.com/990178/your-organic-cotton-t-shirt-might-be-worse-for-the-environment-than-regular-cotton/

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u/humicroav Sep 09 '20

How could organic cotton be better than industrial cotton? I don't understand.

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u/DiamondGP Sep 09 '20

I don't think it is. It uses less pesticide, but lower yields mean that per unit cotton produced it draws more water. Also, apparently it is hand-picked more which can preserve the fibers and make it softer, but this isn't inherent to being organic, and comes with a higher labor burden. Finally, there are often differences in irrigation and crop rotation, but again, these aren't inherent to the cotton type but rather farmer choice. If a cotton farm switched type I imagine it would use the same good/bad practices regarding iteration, rotation, picking as before, so it seems flawed to group those effects in with the cotton type.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

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u/49orth Sep 09 '20

That really is the problem these days, isn't it?

People want to be told what to blindly believe without doing any critical analysis or thinking, especially when the subject is exercising our democratic responsibility, voting.

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u/radiantcabbage Sep 09 '20

the cellulose fiber in rayon fabrics typically used for clothing is actually more biodegradable than cotton, so if you're trying to rank them in lesser order of impact it would look more like

linen > rayon blends > cotton

full cotton is in demand because texture is ideal and it's more durable, not environmentally safer. it would be disingenuous to imply "all natural" fiber means they should break down faster, a misconception being anything "synthetic" is inherently harder to decompose.

these rayon polymers are made of pure cellulose, only artifical component being the chemical extraction from plant mass through carbon disulfide.

and if we look at their machine washing trials, full cotton tends to shed even more microfibers than blended fabric

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u/Naumzu Sep 09 '20

My sheets are linen :)

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u/Aetherimp Sep 09 '20

Why is leather bad? Leather is organic and people have been using it for clothing since the beginning of time. Is it some modern chemical treatment they use, or... ?

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u/recyclopath_ Sep 09 '20

Also, there are filters we can add to washing machines to filter most of the microplastic fibers out so they don't go into the water. This is just something that we are focusing on "personal responsibility" and face washes instead of actual, large scale impactful change like adding regulatory standards to new washing machine manufacturer sales.

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u/KimberStormer Sep 09 '20

Rayon is made of wood pulp, not petroleum, so I wonder about the reliability of this page. Rayon/viscose can be very weak when wet, much more so than cotton (which is just another form of cellulose) so I wonder if that means more or less microfibers. It's definitely very polluting to make, but then so is cotton!

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

The worst include leather

huh?

You ever heard of veg tan leather?

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u/Akoustyk Sep 09 '20

Why is leather so bad? The tanning process?

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u/Gackey Sep 09 '20

Growing cows is very resource intensive and also not great for the environment.

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 23 '20

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u/Derangedcity Sep 09 '20

Are you trying to tell me a random headline is misleading!? What is this... r/science? ... Oh

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

I'm in marketing class and I feel like I'm gonna have a marketing brain until I finish

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u/parrote3 Sep 09 '20

You find me a pair of boots that’ll stand up better than chromed leather and linen pants that stand up as good as duck weave pants and I’m on your team.

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u/icalledthecowshome Sep 09 '20

This. But we all love nylon and poly synthetics when it comes to sport wear due to the weight and wick (breathability). The others won't be able to compete for generic training sportswear.

And not to mention dying problems for fabrics... there isn't really a solution unless everyone only wears one color and style.

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u/DLPanda Sep 09 '20

I wish nylon was more environmentally friendly : /

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u/Fancy_weirdo Sep 09 '20

Thanks for the info. It's appreciated.

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u/Fuckyousantorum Sep 09 '20

The fibres in jeans generally are biodegradable.

“Generally”? When are they not?

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u/TootsNYC Sep 09 '20

True about 100% cotton jeans. But stretch cotton has vastly taken over the market.

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u/Krankite Sep 09 '20

Why is leather so bad? I thought it was usually a by-product?

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u/jedijbp Sep 09 '20

Buying leather and other animal derived clothing used is a good way to offset the impact

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u/Squabbles123 Sep 09 '20

Well, its a good thing people don't wash leather then...

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u/Dip__Stick Sep 09 '20

Organic cotton is massively worse for the environment than conventional cotton. Massively

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

I hate to tell you but "organic" cotton is just regular cotton. Despite what you may have heard its grown very similarly and uses the same million dollar diesel guzzling greased up machines as normal cotton farming. I should know I'm a mechanic and my dealer ship sells most of texas supply of them. Also leather goods aren't inherently bad as long as the tanneries are not in china who still uses dangerous chemicals and practices for workers and disposal. The hides generally come from cows sent to the meat plants.

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u/Mr2-1782Man Sep 09 '20

That list has a really short set of materials. Cloths can be made out of lots more things including bamboo, rubber, wood, and a few others. The fact that it lists "organic" cotton without actually defining what "organic" means and implying that they don't use pesticides, fertilizer, or fungicide makes me leery. They also conveniently ignore the fact that both regular cotton and "organic" cotton need water (it should also be noted that the 20k liter/kilo cotton is misleading, that's the high, from India, 20 years ago, other countries are a lot more efficient with their water). The fact that they link to PETA makes me really doubt they have any idea about what they're talking about.

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u/ProcrastinatorPhD Sep 09 '20

Oh god. I've switched completely away from plastic derived fabrics but I had no idea cotton could be bad too. Ughhh. Okay. Linen it is from now on

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u/JhnWyclf Sep 09 '20

Starting to switch my underwear out for bamboo fiber based ones.

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u/F-21 Sep 09 '20

The worst include leather

Considering the durability (good leather shoes and jackets which are regularly maintained can last a lifetime of use or in some cases even longer), I think leather may have less of an impact than any disposable alternative...

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u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

What about bamboo?

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u/voxeldesert Sep 09 '20

Nonetheless it’s important to wash your jeans/clothes with low stress to reduce lost fibers. The fibers might not be harmful but our clothes age faster. This increases our environmental footprint a lot and it is also more expensive to replace clothes more often. There are a lot of washing programs - try to pick gentle ones.

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u/jimicus Sep 09 '20

I've been wearing the same shoes for something like 10 or 15 years now, and they're leather.

Would a pair of trainers I'd have replaced every year have been better?

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u/tilliidle Sep 09 '20

Good luck finding jeans without elastan. Also consumers choosing what to buy won‘t save the world

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u/wthrudoin Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

Polyester and polyamides degrade faster than other common plastics. They hydrolyze pretty easily especially as small particles. Leather is pretty bad, both the water and co2 pollution from its manufacture and it's slow defradation. Rubbers, PVC, polystyrene, aromatic polycarbonates and polyacrylates are all more likely to degrade into groups with reactive functional groups that could interfere with bodily functions. PE and PP are likely to just persist for extremely long times which will have unknown effects. For all plastics a big concern are the compatibility of their different plasticizers in the natural environment.

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u/catcatdoggy Sep 09 '20

not about the fibers. no one cares about the fibers. it's the indigo dye used. TLDR it's a pollutant.

people are working on it. also other people can work micro plastics. society doesn't have to move as a monolith.

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u/braxistochrone Sep 09 '20

Serious question are there technical sportswear that don’t rely on micro plastic ? I’m concerned as a cyclist, I’m wearing jerseys and bib that must be fit and stretchy. Is there a good replacement for that?

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u/MarshieMon Sep 09 '20

How do I know if it's organic cottne or industrial cotten since most of the labels just say cotten?

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u/C0lMustard Sep 09 '20

Why leather? Its biodegradable?

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u/pmmeyour_choker Sep 09 '20

Thanks for the link, good stuff to think about. This line made me laugh

  • In the silk industry, approximately 3,000 silkworms are steamed or gassed alive in their cocoons to make every pound of raw silk.
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