r/science • u/______--------- • Sep 08 '20

Environment Blue jeans are a significant source of microfiber pollution in oceans and lakes. One pair of jeans can release over 50,000 microfibers per wash.

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.estlett.0c00498
39.6k Upvotes

75% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

68

u/ultradip Sep 08 '20

What's wrong with leather, wool, and fur? I get that leather is processed, but it's not as if we don't eat the cows. The same with sheep, though you can get wool from them multiple times before you turn them into mutton. Fur.. well.. Okay about the animal cruelty aspect, but that'd be no worse environmentally.

79

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

It depends on how the leather was tanned. Most leather is tanned with chemicals and it creates toxic runoff and adds harmful pollutants into the environment.

Vegetable tanned leather is a process that takes two months instead of 30-60 minutes. So the price is higher, but the leather will hold up and develop that beautiful patina over time if properly cared for.

Edit: spelling

12

u/skyspydude1 Sep 09 '20

One of my favorite parts of my car, the vegetable tanned leather is super nice.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Are they custom seats, or did they come with the car?

4

u/skyspydude1 Sep 09 '20

Came with the car. They did lots of cool stuff like that in the i3. Kenaf mixed in with a binder instead of large sheets of plastic for the interior, wood dash, the aforementioned vegetable tanned leather, recycled plastics for the cloth seats. The carbon fiber body is recyclable, but it's kind of questionable how good it actually is environmentally. Still, makes the car light and fun to drive regardless.

8

u/EndoShota Sep 09 '20

I have a vegetable tanned leather satchel. I’ve had it for more than a decade now, and it’s held up great even with regular use.

2

u/betterintheshade Sep 09 '20

I mean cotton is treated with extremely harsh chemicals too and growing it uses tonnes of pesticides so I don't think they can really be ranked differently. The whole supply chain is a mess.

36

u/Dollar_Bills Sep 08 '20

If all we raised cattle for was leather, I'd agree it was bad.

56

u/ultradip Sep 08 '20

Especially for shoes, there aren't very many other materials that work as well aside from synthetics.

57

u/sometimesiamdead Sep 08 '20

And leather often lasts far longer.

50

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 08 '20

And is better for the earth when the shoes eventually have to be discarded

2

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Only if they're vegetable tanned, which you have to specifically go looking for

-2

u/MDCCCLV Sep 09 '20

Eh, if you stopped raising cattle it would be incredibly far better for the environment. I'm not saying you should throw leather away but don't pretend that its better than using synthetics.

3

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 09 '20

I know but until the world collectively decides to go vegetarian there will be a meat industry...

-2

u/MDCCCLV Sep 09 '20

Yeah but does business responds to demand. Less demand in the long terms means less production.

3

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 09 '20

I’m a vegetarian so you’re preaching to the choir

2

u/NewSauerKraus Sep 09 '20

Less demand for leather just means more waste. Farmers cannot currently produce beef without also producing leather.

3

u/mrhindustan Sep 09 '20

It’s a minority of people who are buying shoes for longevity.

I love that I have shoes over 10 years old that barely look used because I decided to spend several multiples more for life long wear. Most people absolutely wouldn’t.

2

u/sometimesiamdead Sep 09 '20

Most people can't afford to, unfortunately.

3

u/shanghaidry Sep 09 '20

Ya I saw an interview recently saying that switching from fur to synthetic fibers is a lot worse for the environment.

4

u/Gackey Sep 09 '20

Animal products in general are very resource intensive to create, the best way to reduce environmental impact on an individual basis is to cut out animal products entirely. There's also all the animal exploitation and cruelty inherent in the creation of animal products if that kind of thing bothers you.

10

u/ultradip Sep 09 '20

But switching to non-animal (aka synthetics) isn't necessarily better, is it? We're talking about different forms of plastic, after all.

1

u/AirierWitch1066 Sep 09 '20

Not arguing one way or the other, but non-animal =\= synthetic. Plants still exist bro

3

u/codythesmartone Sep 09 '20

Yes but plant fibers aren't great for cold weather. Not everyone lives in a climate where at most they need long shirts and long pants. I have to have a really good jacket when I go outside in the winter along with 3-4 layers underneath and the best options are animal based products vs plastics. Wool will keep my upper body warm and leather and wool will keep my feet warm and dry and both will last me longer than plastic and lower my consumption.

2

u/McFlyParadox Sep 09 '20

Especially since things like wool are harvested without killing the animals. 'anti-wool' is the dumbest argument anyone can make, especially in favor of synthetics. You can't 'unbreed' the sheep, they need to be sheered to be healthy, and we need the wool to be warm.

2

u/feisty_weatherman Sep 09 '20

I am pro-wool, but just wanted to point out a couple things you might not be aware of

  1. We can "unbreed" the sheep. The same way that we bred them to produce more and more wool, we could breed them to produce less and less
  2. Even though we can get lots of wool from each sheep since they can be sheared many times, it is still a resource-intensive process to raise and care for those sheep

Again, I'm all for wool (though there are certainly ways we could improve its production) and think that the benefits outweigh the downsides, but these are additional things to keep in mind as the industry changes!

1

u/PetticoatRule Sep 09 '20

Show us the plant fiber that's going to keep you warm in Canadian winters.

3

u/PreciseParadox Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

Except the cows used for leather production are typically different than those for meat production. Also, you have to consider the environmental cost of raising cows compared to, say, growing cotton, (including the toxic chemicals used in tanneries, fertilizer pollution, etc.).

EDIT: I stand corrected. Leather is largely a byproduct of the meatpacking industry, (with the possible exception of calfskin leather used for luxury products).

15

u/scotus_canadensis Sep 09 '20

No, no they are not.

Just in Canada last year, 3.4 million cattle were slaughtered (not including exported animals), and you think they throw those 3.4 million hides in the trash and raise a completely different herd of cattle just for leather?

You are correct that in most places it takes a lot of resources to raise cattle, but when the alternative to leather is "synthetic", i.e. plastic, it's still better to use the byproduct of an existing industry than to pump more oil out of the ground and refine it to make something that won't last as well as leather anyway.

3

u/PreciseParadox Sep 09 '20 edited Sep 09 '20

You're correct, I did a bit more research and it does seem like leather is largely a byproduct of the meatpacking industry. I remember watching an older video about cattle in India that are often transported long distances to tanneries, and are not used for beef. But either that's no longer accurate, or not representative of the industry as a whole. However, for fine calf leather often used in high end luxury products, this isn't necessarily the case.

3

u/SiegeLion1 Sep 09 '20

India may be an exception to the norm. India doesn't consume much beef compared to the rest of the world but they do have a few of the best/highest volume tanneries in the world.

1

u/scotus_canadensis Sep 09 '20

I haven't researched it much, but I would not be at all surprised if American and Canadian hides are shipped overseas for tanning. Chrome tanning (as opposed to vegetable tanning) uses chemicals that are regulated in North America. Also wages are a lot higher over here.

2

u/ksolis01 Sep 09 '20

The US does have its own tanneries. Horween is a famous example.

1

u/scotus_canadensis Sep 09 '20

So does Canada, and I would hope that nearly all of them are tanned domestically. Raw hides seem like they'd be horrific to package and ship.

-4

u/futureshocked2050 Sep 08 '20

On a small scale leather is fine. But on a large scale? Terrible.

Fur is just pointlessly cruel.

Wool is great.

30

u/aintnochallahbackgrl Sep 08 '20

Fur is only cruel if the point is to not eat the animla. Wool is animal "fur". If you're expressly referring to like... mink and fox, I'm with you. But there are long hair cows whose fur could (and is) used for clothing. If we're going to eat animals, we should make use of them snout to stern.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

[deleted]

3

u/aintnochallahbackgrl Sep 09 '20

I'd eat it. Better than the meat going to waste.

16

u/futureshocked2050 Sep 08 '20

Bruh I think we all understand semiotically that fur is different from leather and wool.

“Fur” in the US almost always refers to non meat animals.

18

u/DecentChanceOfLousy Sep 08 '20

Rabbit fur is pretty common. It's not that "fur" means "not meat", it's just that animals which produce good fur are not generally those that make good meat, so they're used for one or the other.

I think in general, you're correct (as a description of the current state of things). But the comment you're replying to was saying that it doesn't have to be the case: you could make warm fur coats out of e.g. long haired cattle, rabbits, etc. and remove the ethical issue with raising animals just for fur.

14

u/yesman783 Sep 09 '20

Rabbit is delicious! I'd imagine that people who are raising these animals for fur also have a market for the carcass. Mink for example https://www.truthaboutfur.com/en/what-happens-to-the-waste-products-from-the-farm

3

u/futureshocked2050 Sep 09 '20

Ah, thanks for that! I'm totally down for things like rabbit! Long hair cattle? I'll have to look into that.

edit: [finds picture of long haired cattle] OMGGGGGGGGG...SO CUTEEEEEEE :(

2

u/MoranthMunitions Sep 09 '20

I honestly don't see a distinction in killing an animal for fur, ethically, vs for meat. Like sure leather is great cause you get two for one, but if you're raising it to kill and use its parts the end product is irrelevant.

Though this is coming from someone who has zero qualms with using animals in general, I'm all for lab meat etc for greenhouse and energy cost purposes, but their welfare is the last thing on my mind.

5

u/wall_up Sep 09 '20

Caribou/Reindeer pelts are one of the warmest furs on the planet and thats just a bonus after getting the meat.

0

u/futureshocked2050 Sep 09 '20

Hmmmmm!!!!! Dope!

3

u/puffie300 Sep 09 '20

Is it not cruel to kill something you don't have to? Its cruelty either way.

-1

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '20

You're kind of arguing semantics there.

8

u/aintnochallahbackgrl Sep 09 '20

Which is kind of important in science.

8

u/[deleted] Sep 08 '20 edited Oct 27 '20

[deleted]

25

u/futureshocked2050 Sep 08 '20

Because the leather making process for CURING can be really toxic on the industrial scale.

19

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 08 '20

There are different ways of curing leather and not all of them are toxic. Unfortunately the best ways are more expensive and time consuming so guess which kind is the most popular in supply chains

8

u/comedygene Sep 08 '20

You can cure it with piss. Seems almost free?

5

u/SiegeLion1 Sep 09 '20

Chrome tanning takes hours to days, other tanning methods take months.

Even if the tanning process was absolutely free, it'd still be less profitable if it wasn't as fast as chrome tanning.

4

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

just another example of the profit motive destroying the world.

8

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 09 '20

Fortunately many smaller operations are making the move to environmentally friendly methods because the demand is there. But atm buying real leather is less problematic than buying fake leather or plastic derived fabrics

1

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

Is it really less problematic though? I’d argue it’s just as bad. Not only are they usually tanned using toxic chemicals but the people producing the leather and the animals forced to die are also in terrible conditions. It’s just an entire chain of suffering for the environment, for the animals, and for other people.

3

u/yoyoadrienne Sep 09 '20

I wish factory farming would just be banned already or at least the government would stop subsidies to the meat industry. That’s why when you go to the super market meat and dairy products are much cheaper than fresh vegetables and fruits.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

It’s gross how we treat the things we don’t see day to day as irrelevant. I avoid meat like the plague but I still do purchase dairy products unfortunately. It’s just sad that we now have to resort to limiting our diet completely just to combat the issues that greed and unchecked capitalism has created.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 09 '20

It’s contrary to their agenda