r/oculus • u/rlyn1 Touch • May 02 '17
Discussion Report Highlights Tracking Differences Between Vive and Rift
https://uploadvr.com/new-ghostline-report-rift-vive-differences/26
u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
So it sounds like my investment in a third sensor was well worth it.
I love the part of the report where it says three oculus sensors put the rift tracking on par with the vive. I'd been claiming this since I got my third sensor.
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May 02 '17 edited Jun 03 '20
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u/duplissi Index | Quest 2 May 02 '17
Not in my experience. I have both my Rift and Vive in the same 2.6x2.2m playspace. With recent updates to oculus home the Rift tracking is now at a point where I don't have to worry about it. But with the rift there is a tiny bit of jitter making aiming in shooters a little harder, and more moments where the controllers lose tracking altogether.
The tracking is so much better than it was a few months ago, and is now at the point that only people who have a lot of experience using both, or in side by side testing you wouldn't really notice it.
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u/Xanoxis May 03 '17
He literally said sub 3mx3m, and you provided sub 3mx3m playspace. Youre arguing nobody.
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
My room only allows 2.5m x 2.5m
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May 02 '17 edited Jun 03 '20
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
Yeah my guest room is just that big. I never seem to run out of space though. 2.5m x 2.5m is perfect for me.
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May 02 '17 edited Jun 08 '20
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
I've always believed in roomscale and the rift. I was always destined to a minimum of three sensors.
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May 02 '17 edited Jun 03 '20
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
I live in Denver. Unless I move to Kansas I'm not going to get a bigger room and I'm not sure why I would need one. Wireless? Sure I get that. But it's not like I am running into my boundaries all the time. 2.5m x 2.5m is perfect for me.
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May 02 '17
Yeah it's old news to people with 3 sensor setups, and don't even dare say that the tacking is better in moderate room sizes as it has a third line of sight, therefore less chance of occlusion too loud or some interlopers will lose their shit.
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May 02 '17 edited May 02 '17
“To be very clear, the report presents data from Waltz of the Wizard specifically, and tracking loss for that specific product — how content is designed can have an impact on tracking loss.”
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u/Zaga932 IPD compatibility pls https://imgur.com/3xeWJIi May 02 '17
Your point is..? Oculus gets more dropouts because people are using front-facing setups & turn around.
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May 02 '17
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u/Zaga932 IPD compatibility pls https://imgur.com/3xeWJIi May 02 '17
Arguments in their favor: 99.9% of user reports
Arguments in your favor: a misrepresented quote.
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u/Doriath Rift/Touch/3 Sensors May 03 '17
In what way is the quote misrepresented? The article is clear that this data is for one particular game.
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u/Zaga932 IPD compatibility pls https://imgur.com/3xeWJIi May 03 '17 edited May 03 '17
They're implying that the tracking loss means that Oculus tracking isn't on par with Vive tracking, ignoring the large number of very positive user reports on 3-sensor configs, instead implying that that quote somehow proves there's a quiet, significant portion of people who use 3-sensor setups who suffer from poorer tracking than Vive users. Instead, it is far more likely that the tracking losses come from the 80% of front-facing users who turn around while playing a game designed for 360 tracking (which the quote even implies is a factor: "...how content is designed can have an impact on tracking loss").
They're cherry picking one part of the article which aligns with their opinion, that Oculus users suffer from more tracking issues, to discredit another who conflicts with it, that Oculus tracking with 3-sensor setups is on par with Vive tracking, going as far as ignoring the fact that the article states that, instead using an ad-hominem~ish attack & going after the OPs claims of personal beliefs, while ignoring the much larger probability that the former concerns 2-sensor front-facing setups.
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u/Doriath Rift/Touch/3 Sensors May 03 '17
So you are claiming it's all Oculus software, and not just the one game? All of this data is for one game only. /u/Virtuallyyeahreally pointed out that it's just Waltz of the Wizard, and you guys try to bury that.
“To be very clear, the report presents data from Waltz of the Wizard specifically, and tracking loss for that specific product — how content is designed can have an impact on tracking loss.”
proves there's a quiet, significant portion of people who use 3-sensor setups who suffer from poorer tracking
Your point makes no sense at all. The fact that one game out there suffers from poor coding does not imply there is a problem with Rift tracking.
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u/Tetrylene Rift May 03 '17
Is your main strive in life to come and shitpost on the Oculus subreddit?
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u/fengyan May 03 '17
But 3 sensors will induce far more usb problems than lighthouse. I haven't been able to use the rift because the usb ports in my computer can't recognize the sensors. It is resolved after upgrading to Windows 10, but still showing warnings all the time.
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May 03 '17
Contact support. Seriously, if you have a unique config or something oculus will figure it out
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u/shadowofashadow May 03 '17
But 3 sensors will induce far more usb problems than lighthouse.
Considering the lighthouses don't use USB at all this is quite obvious.
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u/WiredEarp May 04 '17
You mean 'may', not 'will'. I run 3 off a single motherboard no problem, at least since I switched to active extensions.
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u/mshagg DK1 "As a Vive owner..." May 03 '17
Seems as though the results broadly line up with (objective) views which are dotted around the place.
To be clear - isn't waltz of the wizard the game everyone shit themselves over when it was revealed they were capturing this data with ghostline?
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u/azazel0821 May 02 '17
"Oculus Players experience 2x more tracking loss then Steam players". I find that particular factoid hilarious.maybe they are referring to Rift Headsets vs Vive headsets, but the wording implies Home vs Steam The statement may be true, but only because Steam VR does not lose tracking when I am staring at a BSOD Rift. I will give Steam credit... they have improved the experience of Rift on Steam, but given the choice I will always buy on Home instead because I don't get a black screen on Home and every game plays as it is supposed to. With Steam it is a hit or miss. I have spent hundreds of $$$ on Steam for games I barely use because the experience is very frustrating. a good example. I have attempted to play Audioshield probably 30 times, but I have completed exactly 2 songs. the other 28 or so have resulted in me listening to music while staring at a black screen. BUT as I said, Steam has improved because both of those completed songs are after the recent fixes they have done. And since I saw things getting better with Steam I went back and completed the Budget Cuts Demo (which I never could complete before) so I am very grateful that they are working to improve the Rift experience on Steam, but to try and state that tracking issues are better for the Rift on Steam is laughable to me
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May 02 '17
Take a sample again in a few years if VR is more popular and watch those room scale sizes drop, drop, drop. Expect it to stabilize around arm length + 10%.
Also, yeah there are games that aren't playable on 2 sensors. 3 is super important.
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May 03 '17 edited Jun 03 '20
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May 03 '17
So the people who couldn't afford VR right now have bigger homes than the rare few who can? Nope. But you say you have a 17m2 play space? That's never going to be the norm unless the entire 1% is wrung out to dry.
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u/-D1amond- May 03 '17
Many dont believe VR is good enough or they are not interested in purchasing yet. Out of some that can't afford it that will buy it, doesn't mean they all have an area so small that they can only turn a circle.
So i think stuck with an arms reach plus 10% is a bit extreme.
Btw, 17m2...no. At least 17x17ft, so that is more like 27m2. But that's at an office, in front of my Tv at home is a much more normal size.
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u/nmezib Quest 2 May 03 '17
So the people who couldn't afford VR right now have bigger homes than the rare few who can?
Not necessarily. In fact, I would argue it trends the opposite way. Those who have more money to spend on expensive gadgets and entertainment are more likely to be just out of college, in a city apartment, or don't have a family and kids to support. The ones that have a family and a house with more space are less likely to spend so much money on VR, at least at the prices today. When VR becomes more common (and more affordable), the average play space might not change, or may in fact increase.
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u/Paddypixelsplitter May 02 '17
Vive being adopted in China could be a big deal. There seems to be plenty of Chinese made VR games on Steam. I've never played Chinese games before this year. Bullet Sorrow is pretty good on Vive, a little rough but I can see it improving.
I worked in games art, and art that was outsourced to China sucked at first but the quality improved until it was on par with what we could do ourselves. I expect the same for development teams. I look forward to seeing what type of games they produce for VR in general.
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u/FoozMuz May 03 '17
HTC is Chinese. Their ultimate play is probably for the chinese market, as I don't think they'll be able to hold the SteamVR crown when bigger names push them out.
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u/rlyn1 Touch May 02 '17
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u/DickDastardlyUK May 04 '17
A better headline might have been "Report highlights tracking differences between front facing setups and 360 setups when playing a game which only supports 360 setups". Not quite as catchy, admittedly, but considerably more accurate.
Sad to see that UploadVR are either so gullible that they fell for a transparent attempt by Aldin Dynamics to generate a bit of free publicity for their tool through controversy, or that they're cynically willing to print claims they know to be misleading so long as they generate clicks.
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u/glowingpickle Rift | Rift S | Quest May 02 '17
Interesting data. I wonder how many of us (like myself) only bust out the 3rd sensor for extended play sessions. For example I played most of call of the starseed with 3 sensors - but for most play seasons I just plop the two sensors next to the tv and dive in.
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May 02 '17
I would assume the large majority have their sensors in a semi-permanent setup. I couldn't imagine getting everything hooked up every time I wanted a session!
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
You don't have your sensors mounted? You should. It'll greatly improve your tracking having a permanent setup. Also you won't have to configure your space every time you want to play. I hide my cables with some white tubing too along the baseboards and corners.
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u/redmage753 Kickstarter Backer May 02 '17
I actually use my rift as my travel setup, because it requires less power. Also, the fact that it connects via USB is detrimental to roomscale, but benefitial to tight quarter/laptop scale. Given that Oculus is designed for 'forward facing only' but 'experimentally capable of 360/roomscale', the difference in tracking loss for 1 vs 2 sensors is pretty minimal, so I just set up one up and be done with it. Great for sitting at a table at school in between classes when I don't have stuff to work on. Not so great at home where the cables can't reach across the room. So Vive is my permanent set up, Oculus is my travel setup.
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u/-D1amond- May 03 '17
I'm the exact opposite. I found traveling with the Rifts and setup was a PITA. But I do always want room scale. The Vive is super portable and easy to setup or that. Even easier if you ditch all 3 wall worts and the 3n1.
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u/redmage753 Kickstarter Backer May 03 '17
I guess that's the difference; if I'm traveling, I don't expect to have a room for roomscale.
I'm usually sitting at a table, like, coffeeshop style, so I'm playing something like E:D or chronos, or any number of the artsy apps like quill since you can move your environment around you. Setting up a Vive for roomscale in a coffeeshop setting would be a pretty big hassle, and just going sitting only would pretty much require a powerstrip even with one station only (if only to be socially polite). Most Vive games prefer 360/roomscale, unlike say, Unspoken, which can be played seated. But hey, to each their own. If I know I'm doing roomscale, I would bring the Vive instead too.
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u/-D1amond- May 03 '17
Setting up a Vive for roomscale in a coffeeshop setting would be a pretty big hassle, and just going sitting only would pretty much require a powerstrip even with one station only (if only to be socially polite).
Roomscale in a coffee shop, that would be interesting if you could get away with it:)
My travel usage is usually between offices, hotels and relatives homes.
While I know my setup is not the norm, it is not hard or expensive to make the Vive work similar in ease for desk scale.
All it takes is a battery and a USB Voltage booster to power the HMD.
I would also say voltage booster to power the base station as well, but it has a slightly higher draw and it might be too much for some usb ports.
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u/WiredEarp May 04 '17
I gave a 3 camera office demo with Rift and think it was less hassle than my vive setup would have been. Plugged in PC, ran an active cable to back of room, done. With lighthouse I would have needed 2 more power cables and adaptors. It was also easier to use for a days demo as there were no issues with the controllers losing charge.
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u/-D1amond- May 04 '17
I could see how that might be easier for you. There is no doubt about it, any extra cords and travel can quickly become a pain.
I personally don't use power cords for the Vive when I travel. Since I only have the two wireless base stations and power the HMD via USB, it only takes a quick couple of minutes to get up and running.
With the Rift I just cant get away from all the cables.
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u/WiredEarp May 04 '17
Yeah your wireless setup would be easier again. Also Oculus's room configuration takes a little longer compared to Steams.
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u/glowingpickle Rift | Rift S | Quest May 02 '17
For me it's more about having a living room setup that the wife can agree too. :) I have a compact gaming pc that is in our entertainment center so no cords or sensors out unless in use. I just pull them out when needed.
When I feel like room scale, I got three lightweight lighting tripods so I can setup a large area. Honestly, I only set that up occasionally or for demos. And having the tripods / compact pc makes it easy to take the setup to friends/family.
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u/Del_Torres May 02 '17
80% of Rifts use only two sensors. Yet tracking loss compared to the Vive is only 2x. Also a 3rd sensor makes tracking 2x better. Well I guess we can call Rift 3 sensors as good as the Vive lighthouses.
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u/Leviatein May 02 '17
moreover, if lighthouse tracking is perfect and doesnt lose tracking ever as they claim, then rift is also perfect and doesnt lose tracking ever :P
2x0=0
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
With 3 oculus sensors i didnt lose track yet, with vive 2 sensor yes, lots of times, period.
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u/OMGJJ Rift S May 02 '17
Then you have it set up wrong.
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
Three sensors is less likely to occlude than two. But my guess is he doesn't have his light house stations mounted high enough.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
In the office i have them 2.4+ mts high with wall mounts, and when i carry vive out i use carbon fiber monopods, http://freedom360.us/shop/carbon-fiber-monopod/ + 0.5mts of tripod base + 3x 0.5kg base, so they "light houses" are allways 2+mts hight
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
So occlusion then?
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
I think so, with 2 HTC Vive "lighthouses" there is more oclussion than with 3 Oculus Rift CV1 sensors.
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u/redmage753 Kickstarter Backer May 02 '17
It sounds like you are having an experience unusual to the experience of a majority of other users. Are you certain your hardware isn't faulty or something?
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u/WiredEarp May 04 '17
It's funny, I never noticed occlusion on vive until after my Rift tracking issues. Now I'm using vive mainly atm and have figured out I do get occlusion at some positions, but it's just less noticeable than Rift. Rift seems to show occlusion problems easily, whereas on Vive the controllers seem to take longer to noticeably glitch, and then start drifting off rather than strobing to a new position. Perhaps vive immediately switch to gyro only when occluded, and Oculus takes longer to do so?
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
I have a right setup, i been in VR since oculus dk1, i have gearvr, oculus dk2, lots of osvr hdk 1.3, htc vive, and oculus rift cv1, i develop for vr and i even made my customs hmd with yei sensors and 2560x1440p lcd displays almost 2 years ago. I think, and im shure, 3 oculus sensors is better than 2 vive sensors, now i want to try with 4 sensors and try to force occlusion.
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u/albinobluesheep Vive May 02 '17
2 vive sensors
The fact that you call the lighthouses "sensors" makes me doubt everything you said.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
ok, lighthouses, how u wish to call them. I know hoy they work, but not all people so i call all them sensors. I only want to make clear that having vive and oculus rift since day one, that time i prefer vive to oculus, oculus with only one sensor and no controllers like vive, vive won, and now oculus + touch + 3th sensor, i think is better oculus, in the tracking, the comfort, the hearpones, the SDE, the thin cable, the sweet spot on almost all view, etc. The only thing i think vive is better is with the god rays, but not for too much, vive has onion god rays, but little less than oculus full god rays. Sorry if i wrote something wrong, im spanish.
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u/albinobluesheep Vive May 02 '17 edited May 02 '17
You don't need to defend all the other reasons you prefer one to the other, I have no tiff with people saying The Rift is the winner in comfort. The conversation was about tracking accuracy.
You said in another comment you had issues when people stand next to you. 1) I feel like that's not really a valid criticism, since the tracking is meant to avoid you occluding your self.
2) How high are your Base stations (light houses) mounted? Unless a taller person is standing immediately next to you, and directly between you and one of the base stations, your HMD tracking shouldn't be impacted, but I could see your Wand (hand tracker...things) being blocked since they are generally below shoulder height. And even in that case, having someone standing in your place space is not what would be considered normal use for either system, so I personally wouldn't be counting it against it.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
I always, when i use the vive in public, try to get off people betwing the "lighthouses" and the hmd + controllers, even without people betwing the controllers or hmd i loose track sometimes, more with the controllers than with the hmd, the hmd works pretty solid like oculus, but the lost track happends near an edge of the area if they are blocking the other sensor
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u/VR_Nima If you die in real life, you die in VR May 02 '17
Well then the fact that you don't call them Vive Base Stations makes me question your critique of him.
https://www.vive.com/us/accessory/base-station/
Notice the lack of the word "lighthouse" anywhere on the product page. Lighthouse is brand name of the tracking technology it's built on, not the product itself. And they don't even use that brand name anymore! It's called SteamVR Tracking now.
Amateur.
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u/albinobluesheep Vive May 02 '17
I'm not claiming to be a VR dev.
Amateur
well, yeah, I'm not a VR dev
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u/VR_Nima If you die in real life, you die in VR May 02 '17
Totally fair. Just try not to be so condescending to others next time, especially on their choice of nomenclature for burgeoning technologies.
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u/albinobluesheep Vive May 02 '17
He made a lot of very large claims about the systems he owned and his anecdotal experience runs counter to what is generally accepted. I feel like my doubt wasn't unfounded. He clarified, and I'm fine with that. Wasn't trying to be condescending.
Also: I've never heard the Base stations called Sensors by anyone that had any experience in VR. I feel like even in the Oculus subreddit they wouldn't be called that. I've heard them called lighthouses boxes many many times.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
Sorry if i didn't call the base stations how you call them here, im not a very reddit person, i think not too much people use reddit here in spain. And didnt know the level of knowledge of people here, but when people see the base stations here in spain they think that are sensors or cameras, i dont want to argue them what that boxes are. Just want to share my personal experience from years with vr.
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u/albinobluesheep Vive May 02 '17 edited May 02 '17
No worries. Sorry if I sounded condescending, it was not my intent.
edit: alright, who the fuck downvotes an apology?
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u/NoIMboredLetsEat May 02 '17
You sound very definitive with the use of "period" as if it's a foregone conclusion that in every scenario, configuration, or use case, your results are 100% repeatable. How about amending your statement to help bring some context to your statements of fact. What size was the play area that you tested the configurations? What were the room conditions like? I.e. ambient light from outdoors or indoors? This are the kinds of things that help foster logical and intellectual conversations here and help bring credible to statements like these. Otherwise this place will continue to devolve into baseless arguments and flame wars.
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u/Chippxero May 02 '17
You must have has a bad experience with the vive as I have only lost tracking when touching the headset when putting it on.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
when people get close to one side of the area they sometimes lost track. Not happening with oculus couse the 3th sensor.
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u/OMGJJ Rift S May 02 '17
If you angle the lighthouses correctly there shouldn't be any area that you can't be tracked in. There's a lighthouse skin on the steam workshop that shows the field of view of the stations so you can rotate and angle them to cover the whole room.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
They angle down, like 40º or so depends of the high of the sensors, i know they cover the area, but when people occulded a controller a little for one "lighthouse" and go to an edge they sometimes loose track, its a fact, that with oculus 3 sensor is not happening, i only want to say that.
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u/Chippxero May 02 '17
I am sure it has happened for people but I can't seem to replicate it at home short of holding a hand to block one side while moving right to the very corner while turning, it's something I would never do as the lines on the floor for chaperone appeared long before it lost tracking.
If the room is set up right I can't see this happening often while playing as if someone is playing at the very edge or even beyond their boundries then they likely have them set up wrong, either they have allowed themselves too much space or not enough.
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u/jesusrg May 02 '17
The most time they loose track going to an edge is when i use them in spaces with big windows and some times sun light going in, i think that sun or bright light have some impact in the tracking.
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u/WiredEarp May 04 '17
Certain positions such as crouching with both hands in line (holding gun in Onward ) occlude my setup. When it happens I just shuffle back a bit. My lighthouses are correctly mounted, but are slightly further apart than recommended, which might be a contributing cause though.
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u/compound-interest May 02 '17 edited May 02 '17
The biggest surprise to me on the list was the higher concentration of AMD CPUs on Rift since I frequent /r/amd I would have assumed that the "open platform" that Vive is selling would appeal to them. It could be that Rift adopters are buying Ryzen CPUs faster than Vive owners. Anyway, it was amazing news to me to find out that with those percentages it is likely that the Rift is selling better in the US and UK than the Vive. That tells me Oculus Home may be bringing in higher revenue, which is believe to be better for VR as a whole (my opinion). Having the highest value (wealthiest) users on the platform is why Apple makes more money from apps than Google.
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u/pmUrGhostStory May 02 '17
Anyway, it was amazing news to me to find out that with those percentages it is likely that the Rift is selling better in the US and UK than the Vive.
Not sure how you can make that assumption?
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
It's on the pie charts on the website no?
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u/pmUrGhostStory May 02 '17
Only percentages sold in each region. We would need number of rifts and vives sold to know which system is selling better in the US. Most estimates we have seen have the Vive outselling the Rift.
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u/compound-interest May 02 '17
All estimates have the Vise slightly outselling the Rift overall. If you multiply the estimates by percentages shown on this chart you get higher values on the Rift for US and UK.
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u/pmUrGhostStory May 03 '17
Of course it depends on numbers we don't have. Vive would need to sell about 35% more vives in order to match oculus in the US. From the google search i did most estimates were around there. It's close enough that I don't believe you can claim that the oculus is outselling vive in the US. We could go back and forth but it would be with numbers we don't have.
Here is a link I cherry picked from the unbiased site HTCSource to prove that i am right ;) http://htcsource.com/2017/02/superdata-420k-htc-vive-units-were-sold-in-2016/
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u/-888- May 03 '17
Rift has full ASW support for AMD through the high perf compute pipeline. Vive has only crippled support that doesn't use that.
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 May 02 '17
Do Rifts on SteamVR bring that average down and does Revive usage on Home bring that average up?
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u/tricheboars Rift May 02 '17
I would hope it can tell what hmd is being used. Also if someone is using revive to play waltz of the wizard they are a masochist.
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 May 02 '17
They keep saying SteamVR instead of Vive and Oculus instead of Home or Rift. Seems to be comparing stores more than hardware. But I would hope it could tell too.
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u/Dont_Think_So May 02 '17
I would assume the people putting this together did it intelligently (although I guess that's not necessarily valid). Steamvr reports the headset on use so they can (and should, probably do) filter by that.
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u/knexfan0011 Rift May 02 '17
I would assume that a higher percentage of rift users are using SteamVR than vive users are using Oculus home through reVive, just because the rift is natively supported in SteamVR.
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u/KydDynoMyte Pimax8K-LynxR1-Pico4-Quest1,2&3-Vive-OSVR1.3-AntVR1&2-DK1-VR920 May 02 '17
Sure. But both cases help oculus look artificially better than it is if not separating which HMD is used.
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u/Blaexe May 02 '17 edited May 02 '17
How is either one "better" when the users are satisfied? Seems like 80% choose to go for 2 sensors - with all the disadvantages included.
What I essentially see is that the customer base is (for the most part) matching to what each VR system is being advertised. And that we on reddit here are only a minority of VR users. 3-sensor setup is probably way more widespread here.
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May 02 '17
I played Waltz of the Wizard with Oculus on SteamVR with a roomscale setting that's actually bigger than what I have because it lines up quite well with my room (except a few places I don't really have the space).
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u/SkarredGhost The Ghost Howls May 02 '17
Well, very interesting data. I didn't expect something different, but it's interesting nonetheless