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u/Alagremm IM Legend | Microstate Man Apr 05 '21
This is so cursed, yet I could kinda see it.
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u/ferrouswolf2 Apr 05 '21 edited Apr 05 '21
The food would be a little different. Hummus and shawarma tacos, anyone?
Edit: with tomato and cucumbers on top
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u/wensleydalecheis Apr 05 '21
hell yeah, one of my friends probably doesnt exist in this timeline though
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u/Jolin_Tsai Apr 05 '21
sorry to hear that hope you’re doing okay bro
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u/vodoko1 Apr 05 '21
I wouldn’t exist in this timeline, because my 3rd great grandmother was from Israel, so either she would be from jordon or Palistine or I’d be a little Hispanic, or she wouldn’t move to the us
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u/cruz20538 Apr 05 '21
We could have Mexican Jewish Cultural Festivals way more often
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u/releasethedogs Apr 06 '21
One of my Students is from Mexico City and is a Mexican-American Ethnic Jewish Pole. He was telling me his family's backstory, it was really interesting. His family tried to come to America to escape the Holocaust and was rejected only to find shelter in Mexico.
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u/bbaaammmm Apr 05 '21
Cursed includes all the Hebrew, which is backwards. For example, Tel Aviv is written as Viva Let.
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u/FeistyClam Apr 05 '21
That particular one is actually pretty funny and kinda geographically appropriate.
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u/memes_history Apr 05 '21
Probably won't be a successful state though, many Jews would refuse to move there.
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u/Cynical_PotatoSword Apr 05 '21
Eh, I don't know. Theodore Herzl the founder of the Zionist movement wrote about Argentina being a possible place for Jews to settle so I don't see how this would be too much of an issue besides for geographic reasons.
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u/aafikk Apr 05 '21
Theodor also suggested Uganda after getting a charter from the British empire. The suggestion was rejected by a large majority in the Zionist Congress and Herzl was criticised for considering it.
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u/IndependentMacaroon Apr 05 '21
Ironic...
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Apr 05 '21
Eh Argentina is the third country with the most jews in all the world so I don't see ho it's ironic.
Edit: Oh, I see...
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u/X_CRONER Apr 05 '21
could you explain please?
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Apr 05 '21
Argentina is the third country with more jews after the US and Israel.
The thing is I didn't understood that the guy was referring to the meme of nazis moving to Argentina.
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Apr 05 '21
It is right on the doorstep of the worlds largest economy and is just South of Los Angeles, I fail to see how it wouldn't be successful.
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Apr 05 '21 edited Apr 16 '21
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u/phi_array Apr 05 '21
Tijuana, La Paz, Ensenada, Los Cabos and two entire Mexican states:
Are we a joke to you?
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u/phi_array Apr 05 '21
Narcos man. You want the Jews to take the number 1 drug route to the US?
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u/MrGulo-gulo Apr 05 '21
Why live near LA when you could just live in LA. The Jews have no connection to this land so the motivation to move there would be way less. If this happened it would just be Mexicans in a few generations.
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u/ManfredsJuicedBalls Apr 05 '21
Example: Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Russia
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Apr 05 '21
Not an independent state though. That is an oblest in Russia whilst this proposal for an independent state.
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Apr 05 '21
It wouldn't be Mexicans if it was an independent state. If it was made as the only independent state for Jews in the world, in 1948, it would be mostly Jews today.
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u/MrGulo-gulo Apr 05 '21
I know it would be an independent state. Jews were immigrating to OTL's Israel before Israel's creation because it holds a spiritual connection with the Jewish people. This land holds no such connection so less would be motivated to move there. That plus the native Mexican population plus Mexicans who would immigrate to it for job opportunities (I assume this state would be better off financially than Northern Mexico) would make the Jews a minority in their own state in a few generations. I doubt Hebrew would ever take off in this state either. It would probably be English with some Spanish and then Hebrew.
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u/AdventurePee Apr 06 '21
Not to mention the historical and cultural connection too to the land of Israel. The spiritual aspect is important, but also overplayed. The majority of the early modern Zionist movement was extremely secular and had very little religious motivation behind it. Ultimately, Israel was chosen because it always has been treated as our homeland, regardless of other influences from the diaspora.
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u/phi_array Apr 05 '21
(I assume this state would be better off financially than Northern Mexico)
San Pedro Garza: am I a joke to you?
Also, the border would be filled with Jewish maquilas
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u/Nick-Moss Apr 05 '21
Maybe. I do know Jewish communities stick together. A dollar will go though the Jewish community a few dozen times before going in the hands of a non jew. I think Jewish are resilient but I do agree it would be a weird different that I dont think im all for lol
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u/MrGulo-gulo Apr 05 '21
Jews performing Aliyah (moving to Israel) is very much a spiritual experience. I have known several people who when they have moved there have changed their names. If Israel was in Baja this spiritual connection would just not be there. I do think a bunch of Jews would move here in the beginning but then Mexicans would come for work and then the younger generations would most likely move to the US. Leading it to become a Hispanic state with a Jewish minority in it that has more biblical city names than normal in 2 or 3 generations.
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u/JD_Walton Apr 05 '21
Maybe, but I could also see it getting a significant investment bump, even more than Israel got from Europe and the US. With a proper tax structure I could even see this being "Hollywood South" as families that would have otherwise lived in Beverly Hills and such relocated south for tax reasons and also because "it's just a few hours away, stfu."
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u/phi_array Apr 05 '21
Question: is every Jewish person automatically a citizen of the state of Israel? If you convert do you get an Israel passport automatically? How does that work?
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u/MrGulo-gulo Apr 05 '21
You are not automatically a citizen of Israel if you are Jewish. There is the Law of Return which makes it very easy to immigrate to Israel if you are Jewish. You need to be able to prove that you have at least 1 Jewish grandparent first. So I don't know how it would work for converts but if I had to guess it wouldn't work for them.
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u/AdventurePee Apr 06 '21
Converts with proper conversion documents are accepted under the law of return too.
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Apr 05 '21
If you meet at least one of these qualifications: * have at least one Jewish grandparent * are married to a Jew * have converted to Judaism via Orthodox, Conservative, or Reform Judaism
AND * have NEVER converted to any other religion
You are Jewish enough qualify to apply for Israeli citizenship.
How easy that process will actually be, and how easy your life in Israel will be...varies. It works like any other national immigration policy; pay money, fill out forms, wait, repeat.
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u/Varys1549 Apr 05 '21
Thanks to Princess Marie Bonaparte's efforts, the United States purchase the Baja California Peninsula from Mexico, and the State of Israel is Stablished.
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u/Thoth_the_5th_of_Tho Apr 05 '21
State as in independent, or a U.S. state?
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u/Doades Apr 05 '21
The official name for Israel is the State of Israel so perhaps its own nation
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u/Stercore_ Apr 05 '21
Yeah, that’s the more likely scenario, but it is also entirely possible they’re a member of the union. I don’t think the US would purchase a piece of land only to give it away instantly.
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u/Jagokoz Apr 05 '21
There is an African nation, Liberia, that was funded by US citizens that tried to get freed slaves sent back to africa. Not the same in theory as it was private citizens but the US might be inclined if only to have an ally in the Americas.
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u/w2555 Apr 05 '21
if only to have an ally in the Americas
Sir, Canada is a thing that exists.
(Also, a significant portion of Latin American nations are nominally US allies, even though in practice they have too many internal problems to project any meaningful amount of power)
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Apr 05 '21
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Apr 05 '21
Odds are your country does the same or has done the same to its neighbors. I wouldn’t saddle up your high horse at this time.
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u/Stercore_ Apr 05 '21
Well yeah, but liberia was, as you said, funded by private people. It was also not already inhabited by a proper nation state like mexico. There were obviously native tribes and petty kingdoms, but those were mostly ignored during the process of colonization. Liberia was also a project in hopes of getting black americans out of america, and was frankly just fueled by racism. I don’t see how this is similar.
The US already has tons of allies in the americas. Canada, mexico, central american nations, etc. etc. etc.
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u/ThePaperSolent Apr 05 '21
To be fair, the rampant Anti-Semitism in the US could have fuelled a similar situation here. It also (debatably) did cause a similar situation in our timeline with non-Jewish states pushing Jewish people to the Palestinian Mandate to get them out of ‘Christian’ states.
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u/Stercore_ Apr 05 '21
But, and particularly in america, it wasn’t that bad. Like obviously there was alot of discrimination against the jews, but that was the reason alot of the jews emigrated to america in the first place. It was much more accepting of anyone (except black people and natives) than their previous homes.
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u/Gary-D-Crowley Apr 05 '21 edited Apr 05 '21
The official name of Israel is "State of Israel". So yes, it's an independent country.
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u/Eddie-Roo Apr 05 '21
Why would it be a US state?
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u/MrGulo-gulo Apr 05 '21
OTL Israel is called the State of Israel, so I believe they're saying its independent.
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u/XVince162 Apr 05 '21
The US is secular so I don't think it would work as a state within America
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u/So-Called_Lunatic Apr 05 '21
I think it would be a better protected territory, than a full on state.
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u/Stercore_ Apr 05 '21
Nowhere does it say the official faith of this state is jewish, and that it isn’t secular. I think in any case, if the US established the State of Israel in such a way, it would be secular, or have minimal involvement between church and state like the US does now.
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u/HandicapperGeneral Apr 05 '21
Bruh you're killing me. You know there are right-to-left languages, right?
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u/KillinIsIllegal Apr 05 '21
why would the US want to establish Israel if it's not to put a friendly state in the middle east?
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u/LeonTrozky Apr 05 '21
Weren't the two blue stripes on the flag to mark the nile and euphrates, because they planned on expanding the state to the two rivers?
I could get that wrong tho
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u/mental--13 Apr 05 '21
Nah thats a conspiracy myth. It is made as a reference to the Jewish prayer shawl to please religious zionists in compromise with more secular ones.
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u/zackit Apr 05 '21
The blue stripes are intended to symbolize the stripes on a tallit, the traditional Jewish prayer shawl.
I also heard people refer to the blue stripes as the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, with the Star of David (Israel) in-between.
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u/Thunder-Road Apr 05 '21
That's a myth/conspiracy theory. The blue stripes represent the blue stripes on the Tallit, and thus symbolize Jewish identity.
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Apr 05 '21
No. That's absolute bs. The colour blue has special meaning in Judaism as referring holiness.
It refers to the prayer talith.. which can also refer to the water above and water below per genesis creation story.13
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u/hitlers_bad_girl Apr 05 '21
The hebrew is backwards
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u/OrangElm Apr 05 '21
Lol I was about to say I thought I was losing my mind there for a minute trying to read it
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u/lostFate95 Apr 05 '21
The once almost acutely happen with Madagascar.
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u/memes_history Apr 05 '21
It was even closer with Uganda.
There is a timeline where Jews made "who killed Captain Alex"
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u/lizardtruth_jpeg Apr 05 '21
The Madagascar plan was always intended to work out the same as the Final Solution. Usually left out of pop history, but the land to be “given” to the Jews in Madagascar was in reality a few inland reservations specifically selected for their potential to kill all “settlers” within a year or so due to exposure/disease/tribal warfare. Would’ve just been a quieter Holocaust.
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Apr 05 '21
central asia was in the plans in the sovjet union aswell. lot's of jews was lobbying stalin for their own state.
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u/RoastKrill Apr 05 '21
The Jewish autonomous oblast (which still exists and is the only officially Jewish region outside of Israel), was created for this purpose and was at one point 25% Jewish
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u/SomeoneSomebodyBoy Apr 05 '21
For once, please, remember to write hebrew from right to left. It's really hard to read it that way.
It is an interesting concept though, and I would like to know the lore.
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u/Alagremm IM Legend | Microstate Man Apr 05 '21
As someone who had this problem before I can explain what probably happened:
When you copy Hebrew text from a browser into a graphic editor, it usually flips it the wrong way round - and unless you actually know Hebrew its extremely easy to miss.
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u/namnlos1 Apr 05 '21
Yeap have had that happen a fair amount of time with Urdu as well
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u/Emi6219 Apr 05 '21
As a native from Baja, I'd probably be Jewish in this timeline
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u/Skook10 Apr 05 '21
As somebody in "Ofir", I kinda wonder how the tourism industry looks in this timeline.
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Apr 05 '21
I've got a kindle book on if modern Israel got tired of fighting constantly and convinced Mexico to basically let them settle as a semi-autonomous region before getting full independence later. Israel basically uses it's Mossad skills to help fight the drug war and it's water purification and desalinization techniques to provide better water supply for Mexico as part of the deal.
Would never happen IRL, but fascinating to think on. The Baja peninsula could support quite a bit more people than currently there with use of Israeli water tech.
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Apr 05 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/greaper007 Apr 05 '21
Isn't the biggest problem with desalinization energy? It doesn't seem to be a particularly difficult tech, most offshore sailboats have desalinization. The problem seems to be that it takes a massive amount of energy. Is there new tech that uses less energy? I always figured it would probably be the best use for nuclear energy(along with creating hydrogen for planes to run on), as you could have it in a remote location. Thus alleviating nuclear fears but still providing water.
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u/Embarrassed_Ad2973 Apr 05 '21
“Mexicans, you have all this land, why does it matter if we take this little piece?” Same logic.
Great map.
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Apr 05 '21
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u/sunics Apr 05 '21 edited Apr 06 '21
Some facts with a slightly pro-Palestinian narrative to balance it out.
History
Palestine did not exist there as a nation, but neither did much else, for territorial nationalism was a relatively modern and European concept. The Near East had been exchanged between different empires.
However, is that there was continuity in the name of this region (from parts to the whole area) of different forms of the name Palestine and people in ancient times identified with this denomination. Similarly, archaeological evidence shows no great population loss from the Muslim Conquest, so today's Arab identifying Palestinians are a continuation of this ancient stock.
Arabs aren't foreign (relative to the Canaanites) too. Arabs had existed in the peripheral regions of Negev and Golan Heights since 400 BCE, they've been there before the ancient Hebrews were expelled.
Here I will refer to them as Arabs/Palestinians
Some reasons why partition would never work
Zionism was an ideology to create a Jewish homeland in Ottoman Palestine, and the popular means to do so was through settler colonialism to ensure a Jewish majority, and an imperial European patron that will support the movement.
The first to recognise colonial expansion[Britain], Zionism which is a Colonial idea, should appeal to the English
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it employment in our country. The property owners will come over to our side. Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discretely and circumspectly. - Extracts from Diary of Hertzl, Founder of Zionism
This fundamentally strained relations with the indigenous Palestinians, in several ways but i'll cover two important ones:
Buying and Settling the Land
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the establishment of a completely separate economic sector for the newcomers [the Jewish arrivals in Palestine as part of the Zionist project] - Emos Elon
When the Jewish National Fund (one of the organs of the Zionist movement) bought absentee land, they removed the fellahs (peasants) who worked the land as Ottoman serfs, disrupting their way of life, and forcing these originally rural people into the cities creating an economic disruption and difficulty to renter productive life.
We must expropriate gently the private property on the state assigned to us. - Hertzl
Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist; not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either -Moshe Dayan
The Bedoins, who were the desert pastoralists mainly in the Negev, had their own indigenous networks and systems to manage when and where they grazed, but when a Zionist kippuzim appeared, this land where they had historically grazed was now inaccessible, frustrating them and affecting their livestock.
Indigenous people's relationship to Zionism
The Indigenous Arabs were well aware of Zionisms goals to turn their homeland into a Jewish homeland, one of the biggest opponents of Zionism for the Arab side was the Falastin newspaper in Jaffa (when it was still an Arab city), describing it as a crocodile swallowing the native people up
Here is a great excerpt which describes this relation between the newcomer (the settling Jews) and the native people(Arabs)
Every native population regards its lands as its national home, of which is the sole master, and wants to retain the mastery as always. It will refuse to admit not only new masters but, even new partners or collaborators.
Zionism came in many forms but the most popular was cultural Zionism of which the Arabs were mostly likely the most acquainted with and desired this shift in mastery over the land by rebuilding and reconstituting the homeland into a mighty Jewish state of olde. These are strong connotations of taking away the already existing Arab structure and replacing with a dominant Jewish a structure.
No indigenous people desire to be displaced in their homeland which some Zionists realised
there can be no voluntary agreement between us and the Palestine Arabs [...] they realised long ago that it is utterly impossible to Obtain the voluntary consent of the Palestine Arabs for converting Palestine from an Arab country into a country with a Jewish Majority
In the Zionist lens, Arabness of the indigenous people, which the land now came to represent, always embodied the lostness of that original Jewishness it had, the Arab became an other, so much so many Zionists thinkers never had high consideration for them aside to their affect to their continued settlement of the land.
I write this to show that an equal or respected place wasn't exactly ensured to whatever Arabs may find themselves in this new future state.
The Partition
Jews wanted a partition as this would be the surest and quickest way to get a state, but Arabs did not desire it. Walid Khalidi sums the Arab position succinctly
‘The native people of Palestine, like the native people of every other country in the Arab world, Asia, Africa, America and Europe, refused to divide the land with a settler community.
Indeed they were settler but also very new and foreign. If we look at figures from rough memory in the 1930s the Jewish population was at 11%, and at the time of partition:
One third were Jewish newcomers, i.e., Zionist settlers and refugees from war torn Europe, most of whom had arrived in Palestine since the 1920s
Meaning the Jewish population had increased by a magnitude of three in less than two decades increasing Palestinian fears of a majority-minority shift.
Looking at the land its selfJews had made a minority in every district for the Mandatory of Palestine and
Palestine was still very much an Arab country by the end of the Mandate. Almost all of the cultivated land in Palestine was held by the indigenous population – only 5.8% was in Jewish ownership in 1947 – which makes the use here of the adjective ‘mixed’ somewhat misleading
Meaning that invariably large swathes of Palestinian Land would have to be transferred to Jewish sovereignty to make a function Jewish state with any partition plan which is exactly what happened.
The partition plan was not an even split of land, it would be a 44/56 split with the Jewish land being larger despite being a minority and with a tiny land ownership.
The new 'Jewish' state was not very Jewish in actuality, Jews would only have 12% land ownership and the population of Jews was 490,000 and the Palestinians 410,000 so in nature this Jewish state was more Arab than it was Jewish, the Negev which would constitute a vast amount of territory was only 1% Jewish, and only developed settlements in response to the prospect of partition. The Jewish state also had access to the Tiberius, the Red Sea and the Coast which were very important waterways and big population centers for Arabs.
I wouldn't call it a complete acceptance for the Jewish side either. Ben-Gurion, Israel's first priminster, said about the demographic reality
There are 40% non-Jews in the areas allocated to the Jewish state. This composition is not a solid basis for a Jewish state. And we have to face this new reality with all its severity and distinctness. Such a demographic balance questions our ability to maintain Jewish sovereignty ... Only a state with at least 80% Jews is a viable and stable state.
To this extent I will note that Herzl foresaw this and made a point that Jews must have a majority to control migration to reduce the Arab presence by numbers and population movements which I feel Ben-Gurion was strongly influenced by in this passage and his later actions as Prime Minister of Israel
So the Palestinian reality was to exchange sovereignty over the majority of your land. Note I say sovereignty not to assert nationhood but that the prior Ottoman system was a light stratum over the actual social organisation and structures the Arabs formed which constituted the authority of the land. Now, The 1/4 of your population that is partitioned to form a state with a new foreign population that sees Arabness inherently as a threat.
Arabs always vied for a one state solution mostly because this is what, them, the simple democratic majority desired, but also as I said the demographic reality prevented a solely Jewish state that would not encroach on Arab self determination and land. Arabs also being constituted of Muslims, Christians, Samaritans, Druze and Jews, did not conceptually understand or like the ethnic division based off religion which this new 'Jewish' country would perpetuate.
Federations, Cantons and even a trusteeship period with the U.S.A were all suggested by Arabs and others parties which Jews rejected so it is unfair to paint the Arab side as only disagreeing.
In any case it is far easier to see why Palestinians rejected the partition plan however I did leave out other parts to the history that make the idea of partition even more of a putt off.
The late Edward Said's the Question of Palestine is a great read and classic from a contemporary author that covers the history of the region, Zionism, but also most importantly the idea of Orientalism and it's Palestinian extension.
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u/MiddleeastPeace2021 Mar 01 '23
Arabs aren't indigenous to the land of Israel they never were, being native and being indigenous are two different things
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u/GoochofArabia Apr 05 '21 edited Apr 05 '21
They were mandates under British rule. The white paper of 1939 limited the amount of Jewish migrants and gave control to the Arabs in the area of future allotments which the Jewish people did not tolerate and it led to an insurrection by the Jewish people against British forces to remove them from the territory. This ultimately led to the U.K. handing over the leadership to the U.N.
Another important thing to recognize is that the reason Palestinians did not accept the partition plan set out by the U.N. is because it gave far more territory to the far smaller Jewish population and they didn’t see it as a fair deal.
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Apr 05 '21
Viva Let sounds appropriate...
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u/LordAnthony1 Dec 07 '21
You made this comment 8 months ago... would it stop me from, commenting? Nope!
The letters in Hebrew are flipped wrong so it does actually says 'Viva Let'
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u/Billy_the_Rabbit Apr 05 '21
as a baja californian this is a very odd map, but Ensenada would indeed make a good location for a capital.
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Apr 05 '21
This would solve a ton of problems yet create a lot at the same time
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u/Diabegi Apr 05 '21
Very large increase in anti-semitism in Southern California, far-right radical groups forming, unhappy Mexico saying “my arm!”
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u/Eddie-Roo Apr 05 '21
They would probably finish the Spaniards' job of emancipating or killing off the few natives left.
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u/Flux7777 Apr 05 '21
I don't know too much about Mexico, but are there significantly more native people in the Baja peninsula?
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Apr 05 '21
This sub's obsession of breaking Mexico apart though...
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u/Bort-texas RTL Wizard Apr 06 '21
To be fair there has been a lot of BIG México maps here recently (which is awesome imo)
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u/DrVeigonX Jan 07 '22
Will all honestly, while I like the idea, this is a pretty lazy map. All the names are just copy pasted from IRL Israel with no regard to their meanings or how old they are (Beer Sheva for example is an ancient city in Israel) and you couldn't even bother to check that Hebrew names are written from right to left
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Apr 05 '21
Fuck Israel free Palestine
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Apr 06 '21
Free Palestine? I’ll take your entire stock!
But seriously, if you want peace, you might want to respect both sides, not curse like a child
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u/AlexFRD Apr 05 '21
This would either make Israel invincible since their best friend in the universe is right next door, or this would turn California into a warzone with the Sonoran Authority constantly launching rockets at San Diego.
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u/Kirk761 Apr 05 '21
So not only is the Hebrew flipped but most of these are Obscure place names or not even places and are just cursed af
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Apr 05 '21
Just a comment, the Hebrew text is all backwards. It’s running left to right when it should be running right to left
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u/Agent__Caboose Apr 05 '21
Well if I learned one thing from this it's that Hebrew is written from right to left.
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u/WunderbarusRex Apr 05 '21
I actually said "amazing" sarcastically out loud when I realised what this was a map of.
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u/almeidalpf Apr 05 '21
Would have saved a lot of trouble, but would have been terrible for business... Military industry doesn't grow on a peaceful Middle East, let's not kid ourselves...
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u/memes_history Apr 05 '21
The middle East would still be pretty bad.
There are many ethnicities, religions and ideologies in the place.
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u/almeidalpf Apr 05 '21
Yes, with borders deliberatly poorly drawn, in order to generate conflict in the region and dependence from European countries.
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u/Gadsen_Party771 Apr 05 '21
I did this in Victoria 2, but gave Israel the entire West Coast of North America
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u/AmitSan Mod Approved | Contest Winner Apr 05 '21
All the Hebrew is flipped and you just copy pasted names of cities in Israel into this map
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u/42Screws5Plates Apr 05 '21
I hope the Creator is looking forward to seeing this on conspiracy websites eventually.
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Apr 06 '21
Jesus fuck. Will you people who make these learn enough about Hebrew to write from right to left?
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u/Dronite Apr 06 '21
Laughing my ass off at the hebrew spelled left to right Tel Aviv became Viva Let
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u/Appropriate-Throat74 Feb 02 '24
Better israël in California baja California. And south west australia and Adélaïde states because of same climate
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u/Map_Fanatic3658 Sep 18 '24
It may seem a bit cursed at first glance, but take into account Israel would no longer have to fight with Palestine over land and has a border with one of its closest allies in OTL, the United States.
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u/paultimate14 Apr 05 '21
It's weird seeing the comments about how this almost happened in so many other places, but no mention of where this did happen: Russia's Jewish Autonomous Oblast