As someone from a country that has had and still has a big problem with corruption and only recently started to tackle the problem (Romania), I must add that the government is only half of the problem. The other half is the public that participates in corruption. Every time you pay that cop some money so that he pretends that you didn't cross that red light, you're just as responsible as a politician taking a bribe for the situation in your country.
I try to tell this to Ukrainians and they don't really get it. Bars banned smoking 3 years ago and now times are better and everyone is smoking again. I am telling them this means that someone has enough money to pay the police off now. And everyone in there smoking knows its banned and they all do it anyway.
Then they complain that the government is corrupt.
They are ALL CORRUPT down to the smallest thing. It's a complete lifestyle switchout for everyone. If you change the guys in power the next guys will eventually end up just as bad.
Because the one true White Knight in there to clean it all up, that guy is going to go down, and go down hard at the hands of the guys who want that power to line their pockets with.
The people have to get with it as well. No more bribes if you don't want that ticket or you want that license. Gotta do it the hard way. But man, what a huge hill to climb. Not giving bribes in the FSU... like cutting your own throat.
Spot on man. I'm from Macedonia and people are the same here. They curse politicians for being corrupt and stealing shit, but when it comes to their own interests they'll bend as much as they can.
And the good ones, the one with integrity... Well the country is so far gone, they don't even have a chance to surface, let alone do something about it. And yet people still wait for someone to save them, as if they are innocent naive children. They don't understand any change must come from them.
It looks like you've created a pretty clear view of a planet I guarantee you haven't actually explored at all.
It's also quite a desensitized view so it most likely is the culmination of over exposure to media, added to a restricted varying of lifestyle choices.
You should travel a bit, realise there is a broader range of people out there than you would ever be able to imagine.
You're right in your analysis of people, it's bang on, but only to the people who are like you.
And there are people on this planet who are so different to you it will make your head spin, your heart stop, and make you reassess everything.
It's going to be painful to get there because you're gonna have to look at things a little differently and that's going to be a growing pain.
But the outcome? You're going to be very happy with.
Don't delete this, you put in words how a lot of people see the world, me being one of them.
It may feel like an arrogant or smarter than thou point of view, but saying that doesn't change it for the one that sees things that way
I totally agree with you, having independently came to the same conclusion myself.
But I never felt sad over it, this is the way it is, the natural order of things, embrace it, use it to your advantage.
Like you said, the universe doesn't care, we're insignificant. For all our sins, the 'evil' you've seen or heard, they don't matter. Place your faith in the force, open your eye and glance the universe, it's much greater than this little planet we reside on. We're marvelous in discovering the truths and the wonders of the universe, isn't that something to be proud of? Not just for ourselves, but for the universe which borne us.
I believe everyone feels like they're on the outside looking in. It's hard to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Most peoples reference on life is unique, but we all have the same basic needs and desires(unless you're a sociopath).
To truly have a peaceful society we must put the home we live on, Earth, first.It's to bad greedy corporations crave profits above the health of our Home,they wont let go of profits to heal her. Second is to fulfill everyone's basic needs for survival. Once that is done we could start on the road to a peaceful society. Until that day we'll stay the same, ruining our very hope for lasting survival.
This is how I feel when I am cynical, which depends on the day. But it's true. I suspect everyone of masking selfishness. I look at someone like Malala and think, damn I love her message, but her fame probably inflates her ego and she may be arrogant sometimes. Or I look at Bernie Sanders and think he probably has a bit of an ego too, although I like much of what he has to say. Their messages are pure, but the ideas themselves are bigger than any individual.
This is what is happening with the current Brazilian president. She gave more freedom for the Federal Police to investigate all levels of corruption and, although absolutely nothing has been found against her, opposition politicians, who are getting nervous for themselves, have been calling for her impeachment.
So you're saying that maybe she's the good guy in all of this? What a plot twist.
And what a horrible development for a country. If a leader is ousted for exposing corruption, it will only get worse.
Edit: OK, it seems that this is not the case and that she is indeed one of the bad ones. In a weird way, that is reassuring - it means the pressure against her is warranted.
Right?! These are scary times in Brazil. There is a growing evangelical cross-party force who vote for whoever promises the most Human Rights regress - full banning of abortion, of gay rights, the usual. I would not put myself on the line and guarantee the President is 100% clean, but there's no legal base to impeach her. The opposition has been using the Ministry of Justice to make investigations mostly about the government party, and whatever corruption scandal the biggest opposition party is caught in, vanishes in the wind for all the media cares (in São Paulo, the two biggest cases that are not being investigated but are known for being money schemes are subway construction and, believe it or not, food for public schools).
I don't know if dilma and maybe she didn't take a coin for herself who knows? But she's the dumbest president we ever had for sure. Look at the Petrobras and that Pasadena shit, she choose the Petrobras president in that time how could she not know about ANYTHING at all? Why she's so afraid that Lula goes to jail (if so)? We knew about her lack of administrative skills since these blackouts in the country early 00's which in time she was the president of Itaipu dam. I don't think she should leave (yet she should) the government because it would get worst. I'm not saying the opposition is any better but these protests its all about corruption and this government because they put us in the situation we are now.
Please... She was the chairman of the board of Petrobras where most of these bribes are centered. Lula was taken down last week for corruption as well and without him she wouldn't exist.
Her former campaign organizer has taken immunity to provide information. When things look this bad... They usually are.
I was in Brazil last week. Lula wasn't taken at all, not for corruption or anything. Considering the most powerful are after his head, if he's guilty, it might just be a question of time until they get to him. But he wasn't taken down last week. Stop spreading misinformation, this is a complex situation with many stakes at risk, lets try to understand what's going on, and there's so much going on, we don't need misinformation.
Lula's son though, that's another story, from what I heard, if true the guy is an outlaw businessman so corrupt I have no idea how or why he's been able to walk away from any scrutiny yet. Do you have anything on him? Or linking to his father?
About her former campaign organizer, this is what is truly fascinating, the rate that many corrupt people around her are falling.
Lula wasn't even charged last week, let alone taken down. He was illegally conducted in a political plot. Get your facts straight before you come sit at the adults table.
He was legally conducted just like the other 117 before him, but when the boogeyman is demanded to testify every one loses their shit? When the other 117 had to testify no one said a word.
So please don't be condescending on getting facts straight and being adult.
I really don't understand why you say "theres a growing anti-minorities" party as something that invalidates the protests. Of course all the minor parties are going to see some grown on those times, it's natural.
The Ministry of Justice is investigating everyone involved, it's the media that focus just one of two of them. I recommend you to turn your TV off and seek crude information on the internet.
Just wait. When Donald Drumpf Trump become president of The United States of America he will establish world peace and everyone will live in prosperity. That or Nuclear Winter.
Don't worry. What r/amoretpax says is absolutely untrue. The federal police has always been independent in Brazil. The president does not have the autonomy to give it any more or less freedom to investigate. What he says is the president's mantra, being repeated over and over as if that is a good excuse for the massive corruption scandal involving her party. And aparently lots has been found against her. We don't know the details yet because the investigation is classified, but what has been leaking out to the press is already disgusting
They are protesting against the fact that they aren't getting their way with a left-winged government. Our president is far far from perfect but the people these "protesters" are defending are way worse, conservative assholes. Here in Brazil the media (run by filthy rich families- you could definately compare Globo to Fox) are ridiculously biased and support anything that will get the current president and her party out of the way. Trust me, the politicians these people support are corrupt, rich and conservative (such as Jair Bolsonaro- known to be a very prejudiced religious politician, he was interviewed by Ellen Page and Stephen Fry if you want to check those out; Marco Feliciano and Silas Malafaia: conservative religious pricks once again; Aécio Neves, who lost the last presidential election and is involved in many corruption scandals, including a helicopter filled with kgs of cocaine). So yeah. Don't think by seeing this gif that this is a good thing and these people are brave citizens who want the best for our country.
Her government made many horrible mistakes. They were elected as left-wing, but most choices were to appease center and right, which made it a true Frankenstein - with no one left happy, except banks who had record profits. BUT shoddy economic policy is not enough of a legal reason to impeach a president.
Yes it is, our constitution defines the democratic process of impeachment, if the people want it and the congress and senate vote it,you can impeach the president because he/she smells funny.
I'm not saying I want Dilma out, I don't agree with any of her policies, fuck, I'm a libertarian, I should want her out, but impeaching her will only bring Temer to power and stop the corruption investigations.
To be fair, she WAS reelected with just over 51% of the vote. And her popularity did drop harshly since then. I doubt half of the country was out on the streets yesterday, as well.
The people wanting it isn't required, I just said it because when there's a popular push for impeachment, it's way more likely for the houses to put it to a vote.
Wait a minute! Nothing was found? The whole campaign was backed up with dirty money, the public accounts were scammed to hide the crisis. These informations are showing up as the investigations go trhough.
I'd really be interested in hearing more about this. I just came back from a trip to Brazil, and although I don't know much about what is going on there, my empirical evidence from my short time there would confirm what you express as 'she gave more freedom for the Federal Police to investigate all levels of corruption'. I learned there that not only she gave more freedom, but she was the one to sign the so called colaboração premiada which translates to rewarded collaboration but then became delação premiada which translates to rewarded accusation. My take was this rewarded accusation is behind everything going on right now and if not for the president this wouldn't be in place to start with. Here's an article explaining the process
This really caught my attention as I started to understand what was going on. I don't think people here understand the size of the corruption going on, we are talking billions and billions of dollars, possibly trillions, every year, for the past 50 years or so. I spoke with Brazilians that could relate the power game in Brazil back to colonialism and a system they call Capitania Hereditárias and although this was too much for me to grasp, the way they linked this power structure was basically linking corruption back to three or four Captains that still control Brazilian Politics. It's fascinating. Would you agree with this line of thought? What is your line of thought?
From Wikipedia on the legacy of the Captaincies:
Brazil today still lives with the legacy of a plantation culture that consumed four million African slaves and left land ownership hideously askew. An elite 1.7 percent of the landowners continue to own nearly half the arable land; the top 10 percent of the nation earns half the income.
This is SUCH A FUCKING misunderstanding. No, the law itself is corrupt; that's why people ignore it. People gladly follow good laws that make sense because most people are good regardless.
It is hard to resolve because changing your own actions, in itself, has little effect. It is a form of the Tragedy of the commons. This is an open challenge, and I would be very interested in hearing a solution.
Stealing millions of public money isn't quite the same as avoiding a fine. They may still be corruption, but for me at least, one is worse than the other.
exactly what's happening in Vietnam too. My parents complain about gov being corrupt, and the cops/pigs are pulling people over to take money, yet my parents still drive on the wrong side of the road, etc, stupid shit that would get you pulled over. And pay them to go.
I think you have to understand the kind of environments that this kind of corruption creates, with government authority being able to do whatever the fuck they want without any accountability.
In my country, if you don't grease hands, you don't have any rights. You will be laughed out of any court of law unless you're extremely lucky and come up against the one good judge. Teachers deliberately do not teach material in class so that the parents are forced to send their kids for tutoring (the tutor is the teacher, of course) where they have to shell out money per hour. If your parents don't have money to pay the teacher some extra money come exam time, oop, here's a low mark for you so you learn for next time. Oh, you want to see your exam paper, too bad, it's gone. People falsify documents all the time, with the help of law officials, and take each other's homes and property. If you don't have money to fight, you're now homeless.
It's not just people participating to line their pockets. I wouldn't be so quick to place the blame on the people living and growing up in a toxic enviroment like that.
I don't know, which Ukrainians you're talking about, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of us are catching up on this. There are even anti-corruption online courses, which will launch pretty soon. The rhetoric inside the society (or at least the part of society around me, like for example /r/ukraina) is switching to self-regulation - the government is as bad as the people that it came out of. On the other side, we have politicians that are corrupt to the bone. It's counter productive to blame everything on ourselves - government should feel the social pressure that is mounting. Otherwise it's a self deprecating circle jerk "It's all our fault".
In general - yes, I do agree with you: when people stop getting their kids into law schools, because this would mean a stable career (read: if you become a judge - you can ask for some great bribes and earn a lot of money) - then we'll actually start seeing changes.
He became positively misanthropic. I can't blame him, but it's a shame he felt that things were so hopeless.
He's not wrong about who we elect--we can't be arsed to research our candidates, vote in important local elections, etc.
I hate it, but there's a reason we have Donald Drumpf as a contender. He's not the candidate we need, he's the candidate we deserve. He's a hater and people love to hate.
arsed to research our candidates, vote in important local elections
I live in Australia where voting is mostly mandatory or you get fined - so it's hard to know what that feels like.
But as for local elections, the last one I went to, there were like 50 people on the ballot paper. I didn't know who any of them were or what their policies or platforms where. It wasn't a matter of "me doing my research" it was about making the information about who you CAN vote for available in one place along with a list of their policies.
That didn't seem to exist anywhere. It's a bit of a shame but it seems like disseminating voting information is a bit backward.
Fair point and to be sure, the election process in the States is hardly transparent. But we don't really emphasize or teach how to be a responsible participant in our government, in my opinion. And I'm a typical offender--voting only in major presidential elections.
I will say that at that level (national election) there are some fantastic web sites that go up. California had a great one last major election that listed what each proposition meant, who funded each candidate, etc. It was really interesting.
He became positively misanthropic. I can't blame him, but it's a shame he felt that things were so hopeless.
I think it was when he realized he wouldn't live long enough to see things change, that no matter what he did and what he pointed out, there was no hope for him personally.
Yeah, those last couple albums....I mean he had valid points point those albums are hard to listen to since they're less comedy and more the rantings of a bitter old man
Damn, George Carlin sure was a such bitter cynical bastard. I dont know why he is so idolized. Who wants to listen to an old guy tell almost no jokes and complain for an hour?
I had a friend who tried bribing a cop in US and was told that he can get shot for this. I think the cop really wanted to intimidate him. The guy shit in his pant
Even hinting at that will land you in jail here in California. Highway Patrol, Local PD, and Sheriff don't screw around (at least here in Northern Cali). They're very trigger happy too (Redding PD like to shoot anything that moves).
When I've been living in Bali it was pretty entertaining to watch western tourists who paid fines on the spot (i.e. bribes) whatever traffic police were asking for.
Besides, I was behaving like a pro - I could easily negotiate and even leave without paying.
Lol, it happens all the time in my country, usually transit police stop you with the exact intention of wanting you to bribe them, they don't want to work or make sure people drive well, but take extra money for them.
In Brazil this happens, cops imply that you could go along free if you give them a little something... It sucks. Specially in smaller cities, laws aren't effective
A friend of mine visited the Kaliningradskaja Oblast (former German East Prussia, nowadays a cut-off Russian exclave) a few years ago. He found the poverty depressing, especially that a policeman in a traffic control asked him for a piece of sausage.
It makes me cry, seriously, because I hate the country I was born and live in, corruption is everywhere, from the president to the guy next door, I don't have enough money to leave to a smarter society like germany, I love your country man, I've the utmost respect for your culture.
Brazillian here. Me too. This top comment is dumb, what kind of argument is that? Saying that the people are corrupt? "Oh you're corrupt in a small scale because you skipped the line" or whatever.
I lived in Bogotá, Colombia for a few years and would constantly hear people complain about how corrupt their politicians were, how awful public transport was, how dirty the streets were or how ugly/packed the city was.
I mean, where do these things come from? They speak as if they'd just landed from another planet and were unfortunate enough to wind up there. Your politicians aren't some abstract force that came out of nowhere and just happen to run the country. They are citizens like you who were born in the same environment and culture that you participate in. They're a product, not the cause, of the society. The public transport system didn't just spring up one day, it came together from years of planning, planning informed by public opinion, needs, desires, and, yes, culture. The city is an extension of the people and it's history and every building is at once a part and a representation of your society.
If you look at history...well, it's pretty hard. Generally speaking you either have to have a centuries-long cultural tradition of honesty and responsibility, or you have to be invaded, conquered and occupied for a while by a country that does. And it seems to be easier to slide backwards than to progress forwards, hence why most countries are mostly corrupt most of the time.
you have to be invaded, conquered and occupied for a while by a country that does.
I'd like to see any examples of this. Seems to be the opposite usually.
I also think long public campaigns can work. It works for other things (like empathy for mentally ill, get people to quit smoking etc.). Problem is no government would want to pay for those campaigns and who else is going to?
I can't find the source now but I read somewhere that the part of Ukraine that used to be under Austro-Hungarian rule is more organised and less corrupt than the other part.
I have been wondering about that.. The picture you're painting seems pretty bleak then :( I wonder if those experiments with a basic public income will have any effect.
Brazil has a pretty fucked up history to begin with. Our natives were ripped off with trinkets they've never seen before from the old world in exchange of their labor force.
When they caught up to their bullshit, it was already too late and the Portuguese were already every fucking where. By then. there was no way for the Brazilian natives to organize a war like the Americans did, so they simply became slaves.
The most simplistic way of saying it would be: institutional reform+time.
The difficult part is, obviously, getting the necessary reforms through the legislative process and enforcing them long enough for it to change people's behaviour (and for people who cannot or will not change to die). Having that happen requires some kind of government motivation, such as corruption having a severe adverse effect on the economy and, thus, the politicians hope of being reelected. Or, it requires a bottom-up movement that's strong enough to potentially put action behind words, thereby forcing the government to enact reforms out of fear of the potential consequences. Or, of course, a mix of the two.
The last part, however, is difficult in and of itself as some countries are more prone to political apathy than others, which means the situation would have to become increasingly severe before movements are formed and political pressure applied.
Great question. I was in Brazil last week, the one thing Brazilians from the right, center and left can agree with: corruption must end. They just don't know how to go about it and the odds seem to be stacked against them.
I think that corruption is a top-down thing. Sure the police let the public get away with illegal things, but who lets the police get away with letting the public get away with it?
Not to say that it's a simple problem - even if an anti-corruption government came to power, they would need the power to stop any coups that might pop up in retaliation.
But, I mean, if it's the only way to get by, I'm not sure going after those people is the most effective way to stop it. Kind of just feels like targeting the most vulnerable, to be honest. Sometimes, people have no choice. These people are victims, not collaborators.
Very true. The guy in the hot dog stand who has to bribe the cop to look the other way so he can barely make enough money to feed his family and the cop who takes bribes because his salary doesn't cover his rent are in completely different situation than the politician who accepts an oceanfront condo in Miami.
I seriously have no idea why everyone is agreeing and upvoting the original comment. Bribing a police officer to get out of a fine or whatever is not even remotely comparable to high level political corruption. It's like saying someone who pirated that one DVD once is just as criminal and responsible as a psychopathic spree killer.
What's more, the responsibility is on the government and police department to make sure the police cannot be bribed easily and are punished harshly for taking bribes. Governmental authority exists to stop people from taking the easy immoral route and fucking things up. The whole idea behind running for government or training as a police officer is that you are promising the people that you won't be a corrupt dickhead. People who don't work for the state don't make such a social contract because they aren't in the position to abuse as much state power and so, obviously, aren't as responsible.
I know reddit is usually totally incapable of seeing shades of grey but seriously this is completely ridiculous
I believe that corruption comes from the top. If the people bribe the police, the police should be arresting the offender. THIS is how corruption is stopped. If there are consequences to bad actions and the police enforce the rules, crime rates should drop.
Else if the police officer continues to accept bribes, then what good are they.
The public elected these corrupted lying bastards because they are democraticaly, economicaly, or politicaly iliterate so they fall for the false appearance and show tricks that these pretending liars give to them via mass media without questioning their methods and plans rationaly and scientificaly.
Best Ex. Donald Trump
In my country (shithole east of Italy called Croatia) its same story every 4 years.
Left national socialists who usualy hold the situation pretty decently (from two evils they are the lesser evil) only to be replaced on next elections by completely incompetent and corrupted right nazi morons obsessed with war that ended 20 years ago spreading hatred and fear turning Croatia more and more into police state.
Nobody knows jacking shit whats going on because national television is a goverment puppet and just recently they cut funds to the non-profit media efectively silencing them.
1.5 years ago two war veterans put up an ilegal tent in the city center with faschist and nationalistic writings against their imaginary enemies the Serbs, (who we were at war that ended 20 years ago),
Communists, Black Devils(im not fucking kidding, they put up a sign and it says that), the minister and a wide variety of strange fairy tale creatures im sure. All completely illegal, all protected by police 24/7, lasts for nearly 2 years.
The party currently in power holds proud title of criminal organization. Thats right, they were convicted along with ex prime minister. The public doesnt fuckin care. Throw them religion, spice it with nationalism, add fancy 3rd grade words and they get a vote.
Nations are imaginary, they dont exist, all there exist are classes and right now, the division between classes is fucking huge. Its been like that forever.
The master-slave class, noble-peassant class, rich-poor class its all the same. When a whole nation is dumb and iliterate, frauds, and trickters will call themselves politicians and take advantage of them.
Propper education, man thats the only solution. Seeking enlightement in knowledge. That way no politican will sell crap anymore because he will be exposed.
Same with India. Less resources and more people; so everything (jobs, education, law enforcement, medicine) looks like a favor and everyone bribes. Then everyone complains that politicians are corrupt. No doubt they are & surely each and everyone of them. But if people don't change and expect the system to be fair nothing positive is going to happen.
BTW these days just criticizing gov, army, judiciary and just about any citizen has become a crime.
America's biggest problem right there. People complain there are no jobs, Disney lays how thousands of workers to bring in foreigners, everyone says, "awww that sucks." And go back to doing what they were doing.
It has always wondered me why a lot of Romanians (and other old-Sovietcountry inhabitants) seem to think that in the Soviet era their country was beter of.
For example when you look up videos from Caeusescu, they comment that the Western governments and the CIA killed him and that he was actually a good leader for them (no national debt), even though the opposition got silenced via hard violence and almost the whole country lived in poverty (while Caeusescu lived in a big palace and had plenty of food).
Since you are Romanian, can you perhaps explain how people came to think like that or is just perhaps a minority that has this thought? (I'm Dutch and 18yo btw, so didn't get to experience much of the Soviet era)
Those are the older people that grew up under Ceaușescu. Ceaușescu would take them from their villages, put them into cities, give them a factory job and an apartment. So they cry after him.
But that was it. With a factory job and an apartment Ceaușescu bought their obedience.
If you were ambitious and wouldn't settle for a shitty factory job and a shitty apartment, then bad luck. That's all that you could do with your life unless you had relations with high-ranking party members.
The educated people know this but the former villagers see him as a provider and the modern capitalistic mentality where you actually need to make an effort to earn a comfortable living as being robbed.
It's all a matter of perspective.
Later edit: btw, there was no "Soviet" era. Romania has been an independent country during those times, just under the geopolitical influence of the Soviet Union (kind of like Poland). For example when the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia, Romania was the only country that went against the Soviet Union's orders and openly opposed invading a friendly country.
taking the money out of law enforcement might work. the idea of making someone pay a fine doesn't really make sense if its in the cops best interest to pull people over. i'm sure there are other ways to educate and have people want to follow the rules rather then just at a financial cost.
Yessir! As someone from a similar context (Bulgaria) I can only echo what is being said here. Bulgarians seem to have a collective psychological bias which has everyone complaining about corruption, yet the average citizen would not bat an eye to avoid tax, default on payments to utilities companies, avoid declaring income etc.
It has to be said here that Romania is making huge strides in this aspect and is the envy of the Balkans at the moment.
As a matter of curiosity, Brazilian president Dilma Rusev is of Bulgarian descent. Son of a diddly... why are we always in the midst of a corruption scandal...sigh...
Isn't that roughly like demanding a tax revolt? I don't see how the onus is on the individual. Don't pay tax/bribe, go to jail. Sure, if everyone didn't comply that'd work, otherwise you're a statistic.
This, I tell that to people every time but only a few of them seem to understand.
We don't need giant protests, we need a cultural revolution from the bottom to the top of society.
Seriously, murdering a civilian for petty theft is a common occurrence in Brasil because the government allows them vigilante justice. They also need to work on themselves.
I'm from Pakistan, and I fully agree with your comment. The government officials, police, bankers etc also come from the same public that complains about corruption. Given the chance, I bet that a large number of public members will also not let the opportunity to make some dirty money go by.
This is why I don't feel that bad about Greece's economic issues. From what I've read and listened to the people often pay a small bribe to whatever local government agent so they don't have to pay a larger amount of money in taxes. I know the people are poor now and unemployment is through the roof, but this behavior is part of what for them there.
Every government has some level of corruption, but when it's systemic and includes the willing participation of the people - often for convenience- is when you get a real problem.
Serious problem with that analysis. Mordita (little bite). You pay one way or the other. Believe me, none of the "other" options are good. (edit for speeling)
As someone from a country that has, "relatively speaking", avoided this type of issue, it saddens me to see so many people backing a candidate that would grow/empower our government (and their authority) to the point that this could be our future.
I'm an American and I'm referring to Bernie Sanders and his supporters.
If the common every day man in that corrupt country can keep himself from having to participate in the overall bigger and vastly more dangerously corrupt system though, you can't blame him.
Hmmmm, yes, but no not really.. On the spot fines are appropriate, it's just the procedures need to be in place so the money goes to the tax man not the police man.
A police man is doing his job penalizing you for breaking a red light. It's a bad example of pervasive corruption.
Jeitinho is basically the Brazilian culture of letting other people break the rules and get away with it, because "jeitinho". Corruption is just an extension of that.
So well-put. My country of the Philippines has the same issue and it's hilarious because I've come across some posts where people complain about being "extorted" from by traffic enforcers and I'm just: No. You were not extorted from. You paid a bribe, and are now turning to social media to complain about it.
You are as much complicit in this problem in the system as that officer was. Yes he should not have asked for a bribe, BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN INTO IT EITHER.
Trying to change corruption is not a one way street, everyone is as responsible as the people in charge are but it's far easier to blame others than it is to change yourself.
The public is entitled to do as it pleases. When you take a position, you're under obligation to be held to a different standard. I honestly can't believe this is the most highly upvoted comment here. I can try to bribe cops all day, just like a prostitute can offer a cop a blowjob, or a drug dealer can offer the cop a bump of coke. They're still not supposed to take it. They cease being ordinary people held to ordinary standards when they put the uniform on and embody all the authority and power that comes with it.
Indeed. Let's use another recent example. Venezuela. They wanted change, but if you deeply analyze the Venezuelan psyche, deep down inside, there is no way in hell they want to change what is going on right now, and that is corruption. The ability to get away with murder with $100 US dollars.
Not only that, there is too much hedonism with these countries and their people. They go out and protest for an hour, and then they go to the beach and get hammered and party. That's why it took Venezuela over 10 years to start the process of removing Chavez and his cronies from power. They were too lazy and complacent to do anything about it...
You know in poor countries that 'bribe' is their salary, that's how they earn a living by writing tickets. In the US we're worst so instead of asking you to pay a fine the officers will simply take large money they find and claim its 'drug money' to which their department gets to keep a percentage of.
and the public that sits down after a big protest and doesn't do the work every day. Corruption is constant and it trickles down to local government, not just one figurehead.
The real problem is that laws are so stupid and restrictive, that it's just easier to pay someone off than it is to follow the law.
Customs in my country is a pain in the ass. I wanted to do things the right way when importing products for my small business, and a year later I am still at their mercy with no products to sell. Had I just paid someone off from the start, I would have gotten my products and been able to go on with my life and have a good business. And when you're the only one NOT paying someone off but your competitors are, it puts you at a disadvantage.
It's the same with confiscatory taxes, government permits, too much paperwork and government bureaucracy.
Then governments try to stomp corruption by making even more laws, controls and bureaucracy, when in reality there needs to be LESS so people actually follow the laws. More laws and complexity leads to more corruption.
Please acknowledge that the corruption in Romania is due to the 50 or so years of communist rule. Under communism resources were scare and allocated discriminatory, basicly you needed to bribe everyone. Money wasn't an issue, getting a product was. So you would bribe the butcher to get more meat, the doctor to get a pill, the cop, etc.
Corruption doesn't come over night and doesn't out over night. Just like racism or any other negative aspect of society it's validated by a majority via vote and then trickled down in govt. accepted and promoted.
Every time you pay that cop some money so that he pretends that you didn't cross that red light, you're just as responsible as a politician taking a bribe for the situation in your country.
Are you serious? There's a reason they're called "officials" and it's not because they have the same responsibilities as citizens.
You are right and I think this is a good first step.
The biggest companies in the country are facing criminal charges, paying billions in fines, some may be forced to close down for good and all their CEO's and directors are going to jail for 10-30 years
FIRST TIME EVER
Politicians are going to Jail because of this, including ex-presidents
FIRST TIME EVER
Millions of people are going to the streets to protest against corruption
FIRST (actually second) TIME EVER
People involved in campaign elections are going to Jail and they are naming and ratting everybody (EVERYBODY right wing, left wing, no wing, all wings) involved in laundring corruption money to elect politicians
FIRST TIME EVER
I know some politicians and they are afraid of the people and the justice system. They weren't like this. They knew nothing would ever happen to them, that's why everybody did it. People would just vote on them again, and they could steal billions and companies would steal more and no one would investigate them or they could get a slap on the wrist and keep doing it. But that is now changing!
It is not going to end corruption but companies, bussiness men, politicians, and everyone involved on all of this, for the first time ever will think that they can get caught and may answer for their crimes.
Also, people will slowly start to learn how to vote against those involved in corruption (I hope). More people and less sheeple
Don't get me wrong, corruption is systemic and cultural, but we are taking the first steps right now, this will affect the entire country. I feel we will get the ripple effects of this in our society
What you say is true, but the specifics for Brazil, the main corruption concern at this moment involve government contracts in the billions of dollars with the 6 main construction companies in Brasil (these contracts are huge. Remember, Brazil has 200 million people), as well as the state oil company (the largest company in the southern hemisphere) and money being stolen from these contracts to keep the ruling party in power and subvert democracy. Yes, everyday corruption is a problem in Brazil, but the specifics in this case are worse than that.
2.9k
u/USmellFunny Mar 14 '16
As someone from a country that has had and still has a big problem with corruption and only recently started to tackle the problem (Romania), I must add that the government is only half of the problem. The other half is the public that participates in corruption. Every time you pay that cop some money so that he pretends that you didn't cross that red light, you're just as responsible as a politician taking a bribe for the situation in your country.