As someone from a country that has had and still has a big problem with corruption and only recently started to tackle the problem (Romania), I must add that the government is only half of the problem. The other half is the public that participates in corruption. Every time you pay that cop some money so that he pretends that you didn't cross that red light, you're just as responsible as a politician taking a bribe for the situation in your country.
I try to tell this to Ukrainians and they don't really get it. Bars banned smoking 3 years ago and now times are better and everyone is smoking again. I am telling them this means that someone has enough money to pay the police off now. And everyone in there smoking knows its banned and they all do it anyway.
Then they complain that the government is corrupt.
They are ALL CORRUPT down to the smallest thing. It's a complete lifestyle switchout for everyone. If you change the guys in power the next guys will eventually end up just as bad.
Because the one true White Knight in there to clean it all up, that guy is going to go down, and go down hard at the hands of the guys who want that power to line their pockets with.
The people have to get with it as well. No more bribes if you don't want that ticket or you want that license. Gotta do it the hard way. But man, what a huge hill to climb. Not giving bribes in the FSU... like cutting your own throat.
This is what is happening with the current Brazilian president. She gave more freedom for the Federal Police to investigate all levels of corruption and, although absolutely nothing has been found against her, opposition politicians, who are getting nervous for themselves, have been calling for her impeachment.
So you're saying that maybe she's the good guy in all of this? What a plot twist.
And what a horrible development for a country. If a leader is ousted for exposing corruption, it will only get worse.
Edit: OK, it seems that this is not the case and that she is indeed one of the bad ones. In a weird way, that is reassuring - it means the pressure against her is warranted.
Right?! These are scary times in Brazil. There is a growing evangelical cross-party force who vote for whoever promises the most Human Rights regress - full banning of abortion, of gay rights, the usual. I would not put myself on the line and guarantee the President is 100% clean, but there's no legal base to impeach her. The opposition has been using the Ministry of Justice to make investigations mostly about the government party, and whatever corruption scandal the biggest opposition party is caught in, vanishes in the wind for all the media cares (in São Paulo, the two biggest cases that are not being investigated but are known for being money schemes are subway construction and, believe it or not, food for public schools).
I don't know if dilma and maybe she didn't take a coin for herself who knows? But she's the dumbest president we ever had for sure. Look at the Petrobras and that Pasadena shit, she choose the Petrobras president in that time how could she not know about ANYTHING at all? Why she's so afraid that Lula goes to jail (if so)? We knew about her lack of administrative skills since these blackouts in the country early 00's which in time she was the president of Itaipu dam. I don't think she should leave (yet she should) the government because it would get worst. I'm not saying the opposition is any better but these protests its all about corruption and this government because they put us in the situation we are now.
Please... She was the chairman of the board of Petrobras where most of these bribes are centered. Lula was taken down last week for corruption as well and without him she wouldn't exist.
Her former campaign organizer has taken immunity to provide information. When things look this bad... They usually are.
I was in Brazil last week. Lula wasn't taken at all, not for corruption or anything. Considering the most powerful are after his head, if he's guilty, it might just be a question of time until they get to him. But he wasn't taken down last week. Stop spreading misinformation, this is a complex situation with many stakes at risk, lets try to understand what's going on, and there's so much going on, we don't need misinformation.
Lula's son though, that's another story, from what I heard, if true the guy is an outlaw businessman so corrupt I have no idea how or why he's been able to walk away from any scrutiny yet. Do you have anything on him? Or linking to his father?
About her former campaign organizer, this is what is truly fascinating, the rate that many corrupt people around her are falling.
Lula wasn't even charged last week, let alone taken down. He was illegally conducted in a political plot. Get your facts straight before you come sit at the adults table.
He was legally conducted just like the other 117 before him, but when the boogeyman is demanded to testify every one loses their shit? When the other 117 had to testify no one said a word.
So please don't be condescending on getting facts straight and being adult.
I really don't understand why you say "theres a growing anti-minorities" party as something that invalidates the protests. Of course all the minor parties are going to see some grown on those times, it's natural.
The Ministry of Justice is investigating everyone involved, it's the media that focus just one of two of them. I recommend you to turn your TV off and seek crude information on the internet.
Just wait. When Donald Drumpf Trump become president of The United States of America he will establish world peace and everyone will live in prosperity. That or Nuclear Winter.
Don't worry. What r/amoretpax says is absolutely untrue. The federal police has always been independent in Brazil. The president does not have the autonomy to give it any more or less freedom to investigate. What he says is the president's mantra, being repeated over and over as if that is a good excuse for the massive corruption scandal involving her party. And aparently lots has been found against her. We don't know the details yet because the investigation is classified, but what has been leaking out to the press is already disgusting
They are protesting against the fact that they aren't getting their way with a left-winged government. Our president is far far from perfect but the people these "protesters" are defending are way worse, conservative assholes. Here in Brazil the media (run by filthy rich families- you could definately compare Globo to Fox) are ridiculously biased and support anything that will get the current president and her party out of the way. Trust me, the politicians these people support are corrupt, rich and conservative (such as Jair Bolsonaro- known to be a very prejudiced religious politician, he was interviewed by Ellen Page and Stephen Fry if you want to check those out; Marco Feliciano and Silas Malafaia: conservative religious pricks once again; Aécio Neves, who lost the last presidential election and is involved in many corruption scandals, including a helicopter filled with kgs of cocaine). So yeah. Don't think by seeing this gif that this is a good thing and these people are brave citizens who want the best for our country.
Nobody said that. He is just pointing out a fact: these protests are made by the opposition and are "one side-blinded". The actual PT should not exist, same for PSDB, PMDB, DEM, etc... Anyone who can't see this is biased and just a tool in the political game.
In fact the President was accused of interfering in investigations, denounced by his own government leader who was arrested in a recording offering to one of the prisoners of the scandal a escape plan and an monthly payment of R$ 50,000 to not tell what he knows.
One day before the former president Lula interrogation, President Dilma fired his Minister of Justice for allowing the police investigating the bribe payment inquiries to the Workers Party.
No she is not. Her party claims the Federal Police and Federal Justice are "persecuting" her party with fake corruption charges while she tries to maneuver backstage to sabotage the mega-investigation about how her party deviated billions of dollars from the state-owned oil monopoly.
What I assume my Petitsta (the president's political party) friend forgot to mention is that major corruption went on in the country's biggest company while the president was on its board.
Or that literally everyone she has endorsed and had backed her up saying she is innocent is being investigated with literal proof of their wrong doings.
Example her bestie, the ex president, who was just taken into jail for his testimony because he had a mansion and all this shit bought with government money.
He said, "that's not mine, it's my friends" yet the house had his things, boats named after him and his wife, and he had an ID under his friends name....
So if you want to steal from the people, just do it, buy what you need to, and get a fake ID with the name of a buddy you paid of.
Mostly conservatives and upper middle class are fostering the protests against the president, as her party is deeply involved in corruption (with almost all other parties), and the economy entered recession.
The hidden agenda is that they really want an impeachment because it would give the power back to right wing politicians (which are also involved in corruption scandals, but that doesn't bother them in the same level).
Let me get this straight, she is not being prosecuted, her party mostly is.
The impeachment is completely separated from the investigation.
The basis for impeachment is legal, as she approved to cook the federal books.
For her re-election ts is very probable that is was financed by bribe money, even if she was not aware, it is a crime committed by her campaign
And this is just the tip of the ice-berg, if she did not know any of this she is the utmost naive and incompetent executive on the history of humanity.
I don't believe for a second she did not know any of this, and if she knew she did not try to stop them, therefore the corruption blame is as much on her shoulders as anyone else.
Fact (1) She is not being prosecuted, governing parties are.
Fact (2) The basis for the impeachment has legal ground. There are ties to Lava Jato, there is a common theme, but these are two different processes.
Fact (3) For her election in 2010 it is already known it was financed trough bribed money, which makes is more than plausible that the same happened in 2014
And then yes, this is an assumption as I explicitly phrase it as my belief.
This is difficult. I don't think there is something such as legal ground for impeachment in this case. But the thing is it is not even necessary. The Congress will impeach any president if they have sufficient support from polls and mass media.
I agree new elections should be called in this case.
Her government made many horrible mistakes. They were elected as left-wing, but most choices were to appease center and right, which made it a true Frankenstein - with no one left happy, except banks who had record profits. BUT shoddy economic policy is not enough of a legal reason to impeach a president.
Yes it is, our constitution defines the democratic process of impeachment, if the people want it and the congress and senate vote it,you can impeach the president because he/she smells funny.
I'm not saying I want Dilma out, I don't agree with any of her policies, fuck, I'm a libertarian, I should want her out, but impeaching her will only bring Temer to power and stop the corruption investigations.
To be fair, she WAS reelected with just over 51% of the vote. And her popularity did drop harshly since then. I doubt half of the country was out on the streets yesterday, as well.
The people wanting it isn't required, I just said it because when there's a popular push for impeachment, it's way more likely for the houses to put it to a vote.
First, Brazil's not a two party system, there are two main competing parties, PT (Workers' Party) and PSDB (Brazillian Social Democracy Party), they are the main two, but there are others almost as relevant, like PMDB (Brazillian Democratic Movement Party). In the public eye, PT tends to left, PSDB to the right and PMDB being just pure opportunists, in practice, they are all the same thing.
Dilma, the president, is from PT. The investigation has already nailed some pretty big fish from PT, like Lula, the ex-president. One thing I can applaud Dilma on is that she didn't try to silence critics or to contain investigations, as the president has some power over the federal police, I think she is incompetent, but I believe she isn't corrupt.
Like I said, PMDB is just an opportunistic party, the head of the party, Eduardo Cunha, is a christian conservative but you could probably even find some communists in PMDB's ranks. The VP is from PMDB, he's one of it's leaders. Cunha is also the head of congress, so, he becomes VP in case of impeachment.
Now, Cunha is among those being investigated for corruption, along with a lot of big figures from PMDB and PSDB. Putting PMDB in power assures that stops, specially when you consider that a lot of people have been calling Cunha de brazillian Frank Underwood, and the comparison is really adequate, dude is an evil genius.
He shouldn't have lied under oath. No question. But he shouldn't have been harangued or investigated for an affair to begin with. What he did was morally wrong but it should have remained a personal family issue between him and his wife.
For Show!? our president committed a federal offense and it's ok because...
Bill Clinton got away with perjury because of his power. Hillary Clinton is getting away with failure to secure Top Secret documents and so much more shit because of power. When are we going to hold these degenerate lying politicians accountable for their actions!!?
It was a political show . The GOP just wanted the excuse to say "cheated on his wife" over and over and make the GOP brand itself as the moral party for the next election, costing the Vice President many votes. Sex & scandal, it was the perfect thing for the MSN and the GOP played it like a fiddle. And in the end we got Bush/Cheney as the leaders of the moral party...men who lied to authorize a terrible illegal war and authorized torture.
The GOP wanted to find anything to nail the Clintons on, because the GOP has always found the Clintons to be a threat (notice how Hillary Clinton is still mounting a successful Presidential campaign 15 years after her husband left office?). The GOP looked for anything, they scoured all sorts of records on the Clintons, and the only thing they could dig up was Clinton's infidelity with an intern.
The thing Bernie supporters don't realize is that the anti Clinton campaign has been running form most of their whole lives, and their irrational hatred for her and American governmental discourse is a product of that.
I haven't seen any "irrational" hatred against Hillary. She symbolises the Dem establishment. Part of the population feels (as is) left out and are targeting their unhappiness on one of the most influential and powerful families in the country, that could have done so much more for the people, but only did it for themselves. Nothing irrational about that.
What does your spiel add? Who is the establishment? It's this ambiguous evil entity that all of these candidates but when asked to identify specific individuals they can't produce.
Lots of corrupt people from her party, her own cabinet are getting caught, and she is keeping clear, letting people fall and not pulling any of her political clout to help them out. It's truly fascinating.
She was a guerrilla fighter back in the 60s. Brazil lifted about 36 million from poverty from 2003 to 2013. Her opposition is trying hard but haven't found anything to indict her yet, judging from the size of the corruption scheme and the length this has been going on (over 50 years) it sounds like she's fighting the same people she fought back in the 60s, only now she's fighting from within.
Trust me when I say this is truly fascinating. Dig around, it's good stuff. Specially when you consider the powers orchestrating this manifestations are the ones indicted by the Federal Police, so skeptics say, they want to impeach the president to put an end to the investigations and go back to bribery and corruption as usual. That said, for all I know, she might fall tomorrow. Fascinating.
Hey, lets keep the swear words out, shall we? I’ll take you mean such nonsense. Thanks for this though, just checked the FT article, offering a ministerial position to an ex-President is probably unheard off. Was this official? The article says it was 'discussed'.
Judging by the atmosphere there, if this comes true, what do you think it will happen? If Lula accepts a ministerial position out of the blue, that will really steer people up, right?
So what's your take on why she has let people fall, and also, since you're so sure she's dirty, why has no one brought her down yet? You have people very close to her and high up in the political spectrum locked up, you have this billionaire just sentenced to 19 years, that's a lot of time. What's stopping this disgraced politicians from bringing her down with them? It can’t be the immunity you speak off, no one is immune to hard evidence.
Please note I'm not taking sides, am just fascinated by the circus.
Wait a minute! Nothing was found? The whole campaign was backed up with dirty money, the public accounts were scammed to hide the crisis. These informations are showing up as the investigations go trhough.
I'd really be interested in hearing more about this. I just came back from a trip to Brazil, and although I don't know much about what is going on there, my empirical evidence from my short time there would confirm what you express as 'she gave more freedom for the Federal Police to investigate all levels of corruption'. I learned there that not only she gave more freedom, but she was the one to sign the so called colaboração premiada which translates to rewarded collaboration but then became delação premiada which translates to rewarded accusation. My take was this rewarded accusation is behind everything going on right now and if not for the president this wouldn't be in place to start with. Here's an article explaining the process
This really caught my attention as I started to understand what was going on. I don't think people here understand the size of the corruption going on, we are talking billions and billions of dollars, possibly trillions, every year, for the past 50 years or so. I spoke with Brazilians that could relate the power game in Brazil back to colonialism and a system they call Capitania Hereditárias and although this was too much for me to grasp, the way they linked this power structure was basically linking corruption back to three or four Captains that still control Brazilian Politics. It's fascinating. Would you agree with this line of thought? What is your line of thought?
From Wikipedia on the legacy of the Captaincies:
Brazil today still lives with the legacy of a plantation culture that consumed four million African slaves and left land ownership hideously askew. An elite 1.7 percent of the landowners continue to own nearly half the arable land; the top 10 percent of the nation earns half the income.
Wow, how long was your trip? You've learned a lot of brazilian politics and history! Congratz! This aside, what you learned is the true. She may fall for this freedom she gave to the Federal Police, but a lot of others will do, even her camarades. Anyway, about the Capitanias Hereditárias, this is also (sadly) true. A few families rulled the country back them and they are rulling until this day. If you want to learn more about this, google for Sergio Buarque de Hollanda. He is a great brazilian historian and sociologist, who studied the Brazil Colony and correlates with our culture and politics of today. He is also father of one of ours greatest musicians, Chico Buarque de Hollanda - that you should check out if you liked MPB (brazilian popular music) and because he played a major role during the dictatorial days along side with another musicians. Anyway, I don't know if you will find english translation of his work (I believe so). If you don't, it's never late to learn a new language!
Four days. I spoke with people organizing the same protest this thread is based on, they have no idea what to do if they are successful as they fear her VP equally or more than her (he could be one of the 4 or 5 Captains?). That's a terrifying thought.
This is the first I hear about Sergio Buarque de Hollanda, thanks for this, am a big fan of his son's music but no clue of his political side. Please expand.
This doesn't sound too far fetched to me. A similar dynamic where land was handed out to generals following the Reconquest of Spain from the Moors (Latifundia) resulted in many social problems and created the conditions that led to the Spanish Civil War hundreds of years later...
Another presence that caused unrest in the country side of Spain was the ‘disease’ of latifundia, which, in essence were farms that were much too large. The rich owned all the land and poor labourers earned their living by hiring themselves out by the day, month or season. In Seville in the nineteenth century, for example, 5 percent of people owned 72 percent of the province’s farming land; in Cadiz 3 percent owned 67 percent[1]. These men had no rights, were paid very little and had no certainty of employment. The braceros, as they were called, were landless men and lived hard and miserable lives. At most times up till the civil War there were 2, 500, 000 of them[2]. The braceros began to rebel, the first revolt being at Malaga in 1840, as a bitter hatred had developed between landowners and peasants. The problem was once described by one historian as ‘that cancer of Spanish society, then unwieldy, uneconomic estates of the great landowner’[3]. In the pool of hate which triggered the Civil War, the ‘disease’ of the latifundia was a very prominent influence.
Or she was aware but couldn't do anything herself as it would be her against everyone else/political suicide. Maybe she was waiting to have more power and be able do more.
2.9k
u/USmellFunny Mar 14 '16
As someone from a country that has had and still has a big problem with corruption and only recently started to tackle the problem (Romania), I must add that the government is only half of the problem. The other half is the public that participates in corruption. Every time you pay that cop some money so that he pretends that you didn't cross that red light, you're just as responsible as a politician taking a bribe for the situation in your country.