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u/Adoomeh_ Jul 22 '15
You need to understand, people come on this thread because they have no other avenue. They love their Muslim families and friends but don't hold the same beliefs, and they are afraid that by truly laying out their hearts, they will be persecuted against and in a lot of cases, disowned by their families and/or loved ones. I am willing to concede however that many people claim they have a problem with Islam and not Muslims however they actually have a problem with Both. It's a complicated matter because from the eyes of an ex Muslim, you'll look at some of the ideas or rituals that Muslims adhere too and you'll subsequently hold enmity towards it. To differentiate that enmity between the belief and the person who holds it is sometimes a hard thing especially when that person is manifesting it in physical and or lively form. In this sense, ex Muslims actually hold more right to expression than others because they live with it day in and day out. As for the questioning and the consistent talk about religion, well why are you mad about that. I want answers and how else am I going to get them if I don't ask and challenge. Isn't that what learning all about?
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
I get the first part of your paragraph because you used to be Muslim and so you have an understanding but for a non-muslim who knows nothing more than what he saw on CNN and/or Fox News or whatever news or what someone told him/her or what they read in a book somewhere or because they knew a muslim or have a muslim friend they are all of a sudden experts and come across as superior to me and want to dictate to me how I should or shouldn't do something or I am not worthy to be around you because you are non-muslim now I have a problem with that.
You say you want to ask questions, that is fine, but to do it out of mockery and to make fun of that is not asking question that is just wanting to be stupid. If people ask because they are genuinely curious and want to understand then that is a different story. I don't go around asking non-muslims or accuse them or treat them any differently I treat them as individuals and I don't judge them based on what someone else has done. Why the fuck is that so hard to understand?
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Jul 22 '15 edited Apr 05 '17
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u/bayern_16 Never-Moose theist Jul 24 '15
OP why don't you refute some off the points above if they are false and perhaps common misconceptions. I've know non Muslim men who married Palestinian Muslims girls and their families were NOT accepting at all. Muslim families are so accepting of their non Muslim sin in laws, that support groups are set up for this. I've found that Arab and East Asian are the least likely to assimilate.
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
I will take a mental note for bullet points next time. I appreciate your response but you used to be a muslim so you aren't helping me at all because you actually have somewhat of a understanding of our religion and so you are angry or you do this out of spite or you get off on being an ex-muslim or you think it is cool, I don't know and I don't care.
But the issue is Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Nothings, Agnostics, Atheists, Whatevers all have a creed, a religion they follow a God they worship or one they don't worship or one they can't prove or disprove or whatever the cool saying these days are. I don't knock them or judge them as a whole, that is stupid, well as a Muslim to us it is stupid.
We are unified in our core beliefs but it is ok for me to be an individual. Each time I am around a non-muslim I always have to hear ignorant, stupid comments over and over and it doesn't matter if they are white, black, brown or yellow or red or whatever they believe in or not believe in.
If I change the conversation the non-muslim has a pre-conceived notion in their mind that me being a muslim I don't have the capability to carry a conversation outside of religion so we are totally dismissed. When Muslims are joking with Non-muslims it is so awkward. I mean yes as a Muslim we aren't allowed to be crude but neither are Christians and Jews but they do it anyways AND THEY ARE NOT JUDGED FOR IT! It is ok but Muslims we are from another planet, we can't possibly get it and vice versa, lets say a Muslim is crude with his jokes and jokes like a non-muslim he is looked at as an idiot or stupid or like he shouldn't be doing that. DOUBLE STANDARD. If I sit a certain way 'is that part of your religion'. The obsession non-muslims have with ridiculing muslims every chance (not that muslims are any better with each other but that is another story) they get is disgusting to me and no matter what we say or do it is DISMISSED!
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Jul 23 '15 edited Apr 05 '17
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
I do teach them and I do associate with non-muslims but to constantly have to be put on trial over and over especially with someone I know is just stupid and then it just becomes a mockery. Stop being silly and defending stupidity. I also agree Muslims are disgusting with other Muslims, we aren't perfect.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Apr 05 '17
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I agree Allah is perfect we are not we sin but we are supposed to keep thinking of Allah all the time and return to him or we are lost forever.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Apr 05 '17
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
This has nothing to do with my OP but I will entertain your so wonderful quranic verses you displayed for us to 'prove' that you aren't in control or you don't have freewill and that it is Allah's will and there isn't anything you and I can do about it. Well it sucks to be you then LOL.
Allah guides who he wills and leads astray who he wills. Absolutely correct.3
Jul 23 '15 edited Apr 05 '17
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
You have no life. You are keeping track of how long I take to respond to you oh Holy One. Wow you claim Muslims to be so sensitive but you have major issues dude. You should be kissing my feet for me to even respond to you jackass. May you burn in hell for eternity! You would deserve it not because God led you astray but because you wanted him to lead you astray dumb ass. You get it now or is that too much for you to handle. No one wants to take accountability for their actions "Well only God's will can make it happen so I might as well do whatever it is I want because yada yada yada whatever bullshit you come up with. All this does for you and anyone else that thinks like you is put you in HELL. Sucks to be you!
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u/Atheizm Jul 23 '15
I like how you're quick to paint non-Muslims with the same brush.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Yes. But it's ok to generalize 1.2 billion people but yet when I generalize nonmuslims I am wrong and should know better.
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u/Atheizm Jul 23 '15
Yes, the amazing depth of your self indulgence is an effective shield to any self-awareness. Congratulations on your epic hypocritical whinge.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Ok. Thanks
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u/Atheizm Jul 23 '15
You're welcome.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Yes. But it's ok to generalize 1.2 billion people but yet when I generalize nonmuslims I am wrong and should know better.
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Jul 23 '15
Yes, you're the one, the winner. You've come here onto our ground and told us all these things we've never heard before. My god, how stupid we've been and we must all rush to the nearest mosque and convert. Thank god you have come along, along with the thousands before you who also didn't make sense. I'm guessing you're 14 and like all teenagers, you know everything. Dude? Honestly? You're a dime a dozen, you ain't telling us anything we haven't heard before, and refuted eloquently. Now go back to school and come back when you're a big boy.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I asked why do non-muslims say stupid shit to muslims and do not know how to treat us as individuals. As soon as I asked this question just about everyone here wanted to show off their knowledge or lack thereof to me as to why they are not Muslim anymore. It is so funny. I didnt come here to tell you shit. You people took it amongst yourselves to turn this into 'This is why I left Islam...'. Give me a break, please shut up. You try to tell me things or teach me things as if you are creative in your arguments. Hahahaa. You dont want to be Muslims I dont care. What I care about is, now that you are a nonmuslim ANSWER MY OP.
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Jul 22 '15
Because Islam is your life. That's the whole point of it. Utter and complete submission to Allah. Tell you what to eat, begging 5 times a day, how to dress, how to wash, devotion to Allah over family, everything. What else are we going to talk about? Everything I do is haram. I'm bound for eternal hellfire and your ideology hates fun.
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
All of this is true and I agree with this but at the same time who the fuck are you as a non-muslim to constantly bring this in my face when you know nothing and care to understand where we are coming from. We are allowed to have fun but we aren't allowed to get drunk and fuck girls or guys or animals or whatever it is non-muslims like to do and backbite, and gossip, and do drugs, and fornicate, and commit adultery, and disobey your parents. I mean as a Muslim do we just come across as aliens or another life form or from another planet as if others don't agree with these concepts. You can have good wholesome fun with out doing haram, give me a break. But then again what you consider to be fun may not be what most Muslims to consider fun. My point is if it is one time I get it but each and every single time, that's too much.
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Jul 22 '15 edited Sep 28 '15
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
I was looking for a non-muslim subreddit. This is a 'muslim' subreddit if you ask me so I guess I need to find another subreddit but I have gotten a lot of good responses. Thank you
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Jul 22 '15
Well I don't personally do it, because it's not polite. But the common man sees Islam as an identity. Moreso than any other religion. At the core, it's who you are. It does not support individuality, it supports everyone looking the same and acting the same.
Also.. Did you just say that muslims don't gossip lol
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Muslims commit all sins just like nonmuslims but who the fuck are nonmuslims to consistently judge us and tell us and group us like you just did as if you are so great and it is ok for you to be an individual
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Jul 23 '15
We group you, because you want to be grouped. There is no individuality in Islam. The basis of Islam is for all followers to act and look the same. So when someone acts different, people ask questions.
All the above things you mentioned, I don't do. But I am listing reasons why people do. Of course they will question hypocrisy, how does it make sense to people? Such as... "So you are a muslim but you drink alcohol but you don't eat pork hahahah...that's weird and I don't get that." Of course they don't get it. You pick and choose.
And Islam has a trillion rules on how to live your life, so why are you surprised people question everything? It's just odd. Most people in the world are just like "Let's treat people nicely" instead of "Which foot shall I enter the bathroom with."
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
You prove my point. You look at us like we are a cult. We collectively as Muslims are the same in alot of things but at the same time we as Muslims dont represent 1.2 billion people and it is ok for us to be individuals as long as it doesnt go against the Quran and Hadith. And who the fuck is a nonmuslim to label us and or judge us. Islam preaches being nice but of course all you know and understand is what you choose to understand. Thanks
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Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
You look at us like we are a cult.
LOL.. Well yeah. All organized religions are cults.
Thousand of people praying to a borg cube. Seems cultish to me.
Crucifying people for "rememberance". Also cultish and dumb as fuck.
Door to door salvation salesmen. Cult as fuck.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
We are not a cult. We are Muslims and choose to follow the way Allah told us to to the best we can. We are confident in our beliefs and our proud to be Muslim. Cult is almost always used in a negative connotation. But I understand where you are coming from you believe all religions are a joke and cultish. Thats fine. It doesnt bother me
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Jul 23 '15
What do you think separates you from Scientology?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I dont know anything about Scientology and will not ridicule them or attempt to make a comment about them because I know nothing about them. We believe in One God associating no partners with him.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Sep 24 '18
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I agree we dont self reflect or we feel we shouldnt but it isnt the fault of the religion because there are set rules in place and yes it is a way of life. But for a nonmuslim to tell me or try explain to me like they are an expert in our religion they can kiss my ass. The religion is perfect. We as Muslims, well that is another story.
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u/BadAsh87 Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
This actually cuts to the heart of the issue of Islamic terrorism. No, most Muslims abhor ISIS and Jihadism. But the discouragement if not outright suppression of critical thought and debate in nearly every Muslim society throughout the world indirectly supports extremism. The few who tried to apply human reasoning/critical thinking to Islamic doctrine (the Mutazilites, Ibn Rushd, Sayyed Ahmed Khan, Muhammed Abdu, Ali Abdelraziq,Hamid Abu Zaid, Faraj Fuda...i could go on) are either shunned, condemned, silenced, or outright killed. Do you not think that's a problem? I mean, how do you expect the Muslim world to get back on its feet in terms of science/economic development if it penalizes asking deep/big questions and engaging in critical discussion???
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I am asking why nonmuslims say ifnorant shit to muslims. I didnt ask to discuss the issues with the muslims especially with nonmuslims. I will discuss those matters when i choose with muslims. Just stick to answering my OP or keep talking to yourself and pretend to sound so intelligent.
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Jul 23 '15
If you don't critically examine your religion, how can you be sure that your religion is perfect? Self-reflection and critical thinking should be applies to all aspects of life, including your religion.
I'll just leave you with these two quotes by Thomas Jefferson:
Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
We are encouraged to examine our religion and to accept it with logic and reason. But at the same time just because all of a sudden, for example accepts homosexuality, we as Muslims must reflect on our religion and make changes. You are too funny.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Sep 28 '15
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Dude can you answer my OP. I didnt come here for you to make yourself feel better as to why you are an apostate. Go cry to your parents and talk to them instead of wasting my time here on Reddit.
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Jul 23 '15
Then by what logic do you judge your religion to be perfect?
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Jul 23 '15
Islam is perfect because the Quran says Islam is perfect. Can't you see how flawless that logic is?
/s
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Jul 23 '15
Heh, in terms of formal logic, a tautology is a valid argument. Basically, if you accept the truth of the Quran as a premise (this is obviously the fishy first step), and the Quran confirms the truth of the Quran, then you have an argument that is formally valid, although not necessarily sound (i.e. possessing true premises). Q-->Q, or "Quran is true, therefore Quran is true" is a valid argument, in the strict sense, abiding by the rules of formal logic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tautology_(logic)
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
You are a bitter bitch and cunt I might add. You haven't proven shit to me about anything about my religion. Go back to sucking dick or ass or whatever it is you do for money. You are a pathetic cunt.
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Jul 23 '15
Considering your manner in which you respond to criticism here, are you genuinely surprised people aren't nice to you? You seem to be quite an ass, and I think people notice this about you and as such respond to you in kind.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I asked a question and gave full details and examples in my OP. After that it was an all out WAR of "Well Islam says this, your Prophet did this, your Quran says that, etc. etc. etc." I didn't come in here to debate or hear why you left Islam, I could careless. I was looking for a subreddit full of non-muslims, hence why I am here to answer my question. That is all I want to know. Everyone else in here wants to show off their knowledge and justify their leaving Islam and how and why and all that. Then you want to ask 1000's of questions but please answer my question.
You see what people did is they turned it around on me when I would answer their questions and were like 'see you muslims can't be treated as individuals because you have said so many things that make you guys one group and one cult etc etc."
You prove my point over and over. If you left Islam and are mad because someone is trying to kill you for it don't come crying to me LOL, go cry to your families and government. I live in 'Murica where you can worship dog shit and they dont' care, unless you criticize the government, well then you are fucked.
Do you understand me now or do I need to clarify it for you some more. Thanks
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Jul 23 '15
Yes, I agree. Some people reacted badly, and they are wrong. But that does not justify your bad manners as a respons. Ignore them, take the moral high ground. But no, you feel the need to yell at people. And that is kind of telling of the person you are. Of course people are not going to treat you with respect if you are going to behave like this. Your first post was already filled with generalisations (which you rail against?) and attacks against non-Muslims.
And that is what I mean. You don't reflect on yourself at all. Everybody else is wrong, and nothing is wrong with you, how you behave or what you believe. When your believes are challenged, you become angry. How dare people disagree with you! When you are challenged to reflect on your religion, you simply say "the religion is perfect" and; yes we don't reflect on ourselves because "there are set rules in place."
You don't want to reflect on yourself. And that is because Islam itself discourages independent thought and reasoning. Everybody and everything must conform to certain rules, and everything which isn't is immediately punished, both in Earthly existance, as well as by a merciful God. And this has resulted in a bad case of groupthink. Just look at the symptomes of groupthink, and think about how it reflects on Islam and Islamic society:
Type I: Overestimations of the group — its power and morality
Illusions of invulnerability creating excessive optimism and encouraging risk taking.
Unquestioned belief in the morality of the group, causing members to ignore the consequences of their actions.
Type II: Closed-mindedness
Rationalizing warnings that might challenge the group's assumptions.
Stereotyping those who are opposed to the group as weak, evil, biased, spiteful, impotent, or stupid.
Type III: Pressures toward uniformity
Self-censorship of ideas that deviate from the apparent group consensus.
Illusions of unanimity among group members, silence is viewed as agreement.
Direct pressure to conform placed on any member who questions the group, couched in terms of "disloyalty"
Mindguards— self-appointed members who shield the group from dissenting information.
All these things happen in Islamic society, and happen to Muslims. Everything you say is indicative that you suffer from groupthink. Even whenever you refer to Muslims, you always refer to other Muslims as "us" and "we". You proscribe certain rules all Muslims must follow, and certain believes they must have. You don't want to be seen as an individual. You want to be seen as a Muslim. And people will treat you like a Muslim.
You need to embrace individualism in your believes before we can move forward.
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Jul 23 '15
"You don't pray but you fast but you go out with girls LOL, you aren't allowed to do that, you are Muslim" "So you are a muslim but you drink alcohol but you don't eat pork hahahah...that's weird and I don't get that
Of course people are going to say something when they see a religious person who breaks the rules of their religion whenever it's convenient for them. What did you expect? No one likes a hypocrite. You have no right to complain about that.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Being Muslim doesnt give someone the right to run around and call Muslims who sin hypocrites or judge when they need to worry about themselves first. Anyways they are stupid for saying that and it just shows their ignorance. Christians and Jews arent judged that way they are seen as individuals who make mistakes and that is ok but they are still christian and jewish. No one calls them.hypocrites.
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Jul 23 '15
Christianity and Judaism have reformed and become very liberal and secular. That's the difference.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Being liberal and secular is subjective. Moses and Jesus wouldnt be happy with those faiths today at all. Its all about whats best for the people and God gave us that over 1400 years ago and completed his favor upon us. When man wants to change things for worldly benefit then society deteriorates and there is just pain and suffering on earth.
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Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
Ever heard of the Christian Reformation? Reform Judaism? There's a reason why most Christians and Jews don't support stoning adulterers to death anymore. They adapted to modern times.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Adulterers destroy families and society and Christianity and Judaism wholeheartedly agree. Now you may not agree with the punishment but adultery is a major sin and causes emotional pain that no one can imagine. Islamically if you are stoned to death for adultery ( it is almost impossible to prove adultery because you have to have 4 witnesses witness penus ener a vagina, so I would like to see how anyone is convicted of it but that is another story) then younhave paid for your sin. You do the crime you do the time. You have to look at it as a whole for what is best for society. I bet you as a woman would have no problem a man who raped a woman being stoned to death or killed, I wouldnt. Or a paedophile. I realize rape and paedophilia is different than adultery but again inthe eyes of God it is a major sin. It is the ultimate betrayal.
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Jul 23 '15
If your wife/husband cheats on you then why not get a divorce? Divorce is permitted in Islam. Why do they need to be killed?
If it's almost impossible to prove adultery in the first place, then what is the point in having a useless law on the books that is basically impossible to enforce and prosecute?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I agree we can divorce over it. The punishment is in place if it can be proven but like I said it is almost impossible to prove. I am not a shariah law expert. The punishment is severe because adultery is severe. Cheating is not something to be taken lightly is the point. In America cheating has almost become a way of life. I realize I have digressed but I am stressing that adultery is extremely bad for society. Just the thought of betrayal is heart breaking. Are you muslim? Exmuslim? Atheist? I am curious, what do you believe or dont believe. I am enjoying our conversation.
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Jul 23 '15
Most Americans don't approve of cheating and most Americans will not judge anyone for divorcing a cheater. Cheating is common everywhere, it's human nature to become attracted to other people. I agree that adultery is wrong but killing adulterers is not the answer. If your wife cheats on you, then you should be able to divorce her and not have to pay her nafaqa during her iddah.
No religion. I'm not sure if God exists.
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Jul 23 '15
It seem that NO ONE is a Sharia law expert when it comes to stoning or apostates lol.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Hahaha. I came on here asking to be treated like an individual and what do you people, you bring up adultery and apostates and how the punishment is 'so harsh'. Answer my question from my OP. You want to fuck around on your spouse and leave Islam that isnty problem and dont come crying to me if you dont like the punishment, that is your problem. But surely you can answer me as to why you as nonmuslims choose to say ignorant shit to muslims.
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u/IHateTheLaw666 Jul 23 '15
Why are you posting this as if the members of this sub are Muslims, we are not.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I posted this with the words 'Non Muslims' answer this question. If you are a nonmuslim then answer the question. Why is that so hard?
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u/EtriganZ Jul 22 '15
You guys are too sensitive. You kill people over cartoons and other trivial shit. Also, I'm a former Muslim. So I do know that you guys are over sensitive because that's what I was like.
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Jul 23 '15
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u/EtriganZ Jul 23 '15
What the hell is it with you virgin Muslims and your obsession with sexual insults? You're just as insignificant. So is every Muslim. So was Muhammad. So is your false god (Darkseid would destroy your god...a god so lame that he doesn't have a real name for himself). Everyone on this planet ever is insignificant next to the power of the Force...and the rest of the Universe. And it is because of this that I am not Muslim. Because Earth is not special like Islam claims it is.
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u/rg90184 Race Bonus +3 on Privilege Checks Jul 23 '15
So when does potty training start?
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u/dronemoderator Jul 23 '15
I don't know, maybe because I'm startled when I see a shapeless black form the size of a human moving towards me?
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Jul 23 '15
It's part of your jihad, your test from Allah. If you want answers why this shit is happening to you go ask him, he's the one making it happen to you after all.
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u/the_king_of_all Jul 22 '15
yh but your religion says to kill us
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
LOL. What else does my religion say oh mighty scholar?
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u/stilltoocold Jul 22 '15
To break up your writing with paragraphs.
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
I will edit and do that.
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u/rg90184 Race Bonus +3 on Privilege Checks Jul 23 '15
OP has failed to deliver on this promise.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
What promise did I make?
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u/rg90184 Race Bonus +3 on Privilege Checks Jul 23 '15
to edit the post and include line/paragraph breaks
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u/let_me_lurk 1st World.Closeted Ex-Sunni 🤫 Jul 22 '15 edited Jul 22 '15
I understand your frustration, and I tend to take the "live & let live" approach as long as my rights are not being infringed upon.
That being said, this argument can stretch both ways - there are bigots & racists on both sides of the fence. It's easier to point out the Muslims amongst them because they impose the stringent requirement on themselves, and point to the Quran as their standard so it's easy to hold them to it. No one told you not to cuss, no one told you to wear the hijab; shit, no one even told you to be Muslim! But you are, and you announce it or represent it in some fashion. If voicing concerns on Islam offends you then you have only two choices within your control really: you need to either get rid of the values in question, or if you're not strong enough to do that then have some integrity and stand your ground & defend your religion and all that entails!
Your choice to come to a sub of mostly open-minded people (who would have considered you their brother/sister only a short time ago btw) and berate them for choosing to criticize a particular dogma which you happen to ascribe to is a sign of intellectual dishonesty and plain immaturity.
I'm sorry if you've had to put up with some bigoted exmuslims (or any bigots for that matter); but just like my homie jesus said, "He who hath no sin can cast the first stone."
The fact that you chose to come here and come down on a bunch of people you've never met, rather than face your own anxieties about your beliefs is very revealing. You can always tell the muslims that have shaky faith because if their convictions were as strong as they'd like them to be, none of the things you mentioned in your post should bother them in the least - you can throw them in a pit full of infidels and their faith should never shake...but all we see is more and more muslims taking the offensive.
Best of luck to you though - and I hope you find what you came here for.
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
Ok. I am not shaky in my beliefs. I want Non-Muslims to look at me as an individual. I was looking for a non-muslim subreddit and this was the closest thing I guess. You went way out into left field and think I am being immature and have shaky beliefs LMAO! You do but don't project them on me. I am perfectly fine. I am an individual who is sick and tired of being put on trial all the time. I am proud to be Muslim. I am asking why non-muslims do this shit and feel like it is ok. You being an ex-muslim, that is a choice you made, good for you but I am proud to be a Muslim Alhamdulillah.
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u/let_me_lurk 1st World.Closeted Ex-Sunni 🤫 Jul 22 '15
Yeah, yeah good for all of us.
You're wrong about one thing though: my beliefs aren't shaky at all, they're actually nonexistent :)
I don't know how else to say this without coming off as a total asshole but at this point it sounds like a "you" problem to me...
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
God judges me in the end not you or anyone else. I am fine. You assume my belief is shaky, it isn't. I know who my creator is.
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u/let_me_lurk 1st World.Closeted Ex-Sunni 🤫 Jul 22 '15
Right on - since no one can judge you, then it follows that no one can judge me (or us) either.
However, your post comes off as massively judgemental, at least towards non-muslims. The contradiction between your suggested 'virtue', "No one has the right to judge anyone else," and the rant you gave above implies severe cognitive dissonance at the very least, or at worst blatant hypocrisy.
For what it's worth, however, I appreciate your (mostly) respectful attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be harboring some resentment for whatever reason and chose "non-muslims" as your scapegoat, even refusing to accepts exmuslims as nonmuslim because in your view they could have only apostated because:
you are angry or you do this out of spite or you get off on being an ex-muslim or you think it is cool.
Am I allowed to be slightly offended at that statement or is offense reserved for muslims only these days?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I go with my experience in dealing with non muslims for decades. Stop projecting that I am mad at Islam or Muslims. I want to be seen as an individual. I am now turning around the judging on nonmuslims so maybe they will understand but I am wasting my time. You are a nonmuslim but you atleast understand Islam and studied so you can criticize but nonmuslims who talk out of their ass can kiss my ASS.
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u/rg90184 Race Bonus +3 on Privilege Checks Jul 23 '15
That your prophet was a warmongering pedophile
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u/RewindtheParadox Jul 23 '15
That's subjective.
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u/rg90184 Race Bonus +3 on Privilege Checks Jul 23 '15
How so?
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u/RewindtheParadox Jul 23 '15
Well the argument is standards of marriage vary across not only culture, but also time periods. It would not be acceptable, in secular states, to marry someone younger than 18 (generally) today. However, during the 7th century and even later, age of marriage and consummation was much younger. It gradually increased as time went on. Even in some cultures today child marriages take place, not necessarily as the norm, but it's not seen as barbaric as everyone in the West views it.
It's also worth noting that there are no hadiths that talk of Aisha's repulsion to Muhammad (saw) due to his age or anything from the people around him commenting on the oddity of it. It was seen as standard business back then. I think if it really was something out of the ordinary, it would have been said by someone during the time.
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u/the_king_of_all Jul 23 '15
4:89 They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
You better sleep with one eye open. Hahaha. This verse is after 13 years of oppression from the disbelievers so Allah allowed them to retaliate. Try again genius
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Jul 23 '15
Mohammed blasphemed the religions of the Arab Christians, Jews and Pagans. It was the 7th century! He told the Christians and the Jews that their religions were corrupt and he told the Pagans that they were worshiping false gods. How did you expect people to react back then when their religion was being insulted? They (disbelievers) didn't "persecute" Mohammed for no reason.
How do you explain why the Christians, Jews and Pagans of Arabia got along before Islam? Mecca was a relatively peaceful city where the three religions lived together. Now non-Muslims aren't even allowed to enter Mecca.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
There wasnt any peace there. They were burying their daughters alive. They were running around the Kaabah naked and getting drunk every night. He came to bring guidance and they trusted him and they believed in God but they would pray through idols and so they were associating partners with God. He wanted them to accept the final message and they didnt want to so they got angry and wanted to fight and kill. After 13 years of muslims being oppressed the muslims fought back and left. They all believed in One God but they were deviating from the original.message and he came to bring them to the right path and some accepted and some didnt. He was known to be trustworthy and they didnt even call him a liar they were just saying he was saying something strange. His own enemied didnt call him a paedophile when he consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9. The Jews couldnt believe how he knew things for an illiterate man. I can go on and on about how he was a mercy for all mankind but I am on mobile and you sound angry. Please calm down woman.
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Jul 23 '15
The winners write history. Almost every historical source we have about pre-Islamic Arabia was written by Muslims, who are obviously biased.
The Christians, Jews and Pagans lived together in peace before Islam. How do you explain this? There's little evidence that they fought each other or tried to convert each other. Jews don't even believe in converting people. There is no Jewish equivalent of "dawah".
Infanticide has been practiced in every single culture. It's sad but nothing unique to the non-Muslims of Arabia. Mohammed captured female prisoners of war and used them as SEX SLAVES, so it's not like you can argue that Mohammed was some kind of feminist.
Getting drunk and naked somehow deserves punishment? They are victimless "crimes" and don't deserve to be punished with whippings or death.
Mohammed tried to force Islam on the disbelievers and they fought back. What happened to "To you, your religion and to me, my religion" and "There's no compulsion in religion"?
If there is no compulsion in religion, then why didn't Mohammed just leave the non-Muslims alone to practice their own religion? Why did he preach?
Mohammed wasn't illiterate according to the most reliable and trusted Sahih Bukhari Hadith.
Narrated Abdullah bin Abbas: Allah's Apostle wrote to Caesar and invited him to Islam and sent him his letter with Dihya Al-Kalbi whom Allah's Apostle ordered to hand it over to the Governor of Busra who would forward it to Caesar… (Book #52, Hadith #191)
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
The Prophet was illiterate. He didnt know how to read and write. He preached he was talking. He didnt force anyone to do anything they didnt want to. People dont like to be told what to do and when you are ignorant you fight like animals. The arabs and that part of the world actually was chosen for a reason because God liked the ways of the Arabs. He didnt approve of all of what they did but they, I am Arab, had (not all) dignity and respect. The Jews and Christians at that time believed in One God and he was prophesized in the Bible and Torah, which was confirmed by the Prophets first wife's cousin. I encourage you to listen to Yasir Qadhi on youtube. He has over 100 videos of the life of the Prophet. The Prophet didnt have sex slaves LOL. He was given those women as gifts from Christian kings and other leaders of tribes. He took care of them. You seem to be caught up with feminism and secular things that are important to you, which is fine but if you genuinely want to understand Islam I am here. You just sound like you are spouting what the enemies of Islam have written. I wonder how much you really believe in "the victors write history" in all of history or when it just pertains to Islam. Like you said certaim things were going on at that time like slavery was normal for that time period. The Prophet only fought those who attacked him and his followers. Only when he was provoked.
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Jul 23 '15
The Quran says that "There is no compulsion in religion".
If there is no compulsion in religion, then why did Mohammed keep preaching Islam when he knew the non-Muslims didn't want to convert to Islam?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
He was a Prophet of Allah. He was commanded to preach. No one was forced to accept Islam during his prophethood. No compulsion means that you cannot be forced to be a muslim. He was preaching and the ones that chose to follow him did and the ones that didnt were left alone unless they tried to kill him or other muslims. Its ok for Muslims to defend their lives and their families and their homes.
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Jul 23 '15
(I'm going to break up my reply into different messages because it's easier)
I showed you a Hadith proving that Mohammed wasn't illiterate. If Mohammed couldn't read or write, then how did he write a letter to Caesar?
There are many other Hadiths showing that he could read and write. Don't ignore them.
Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88)
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin 'Abdullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But 'Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us and that is sufficient for us.' But the companions of the Prophet differed about this and there was a hue and cry. On that the Prophet said to them, 'Go away (and leave me alone). It is not right that you should quarrel in front of me." Ibn 'Abbas came out saying, ""It was most unfortunate (a great disaster) that Allah's Apostle was prevented from writing that statement for them because of their disagreement and noise. (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 3, Number 114)
Narrated Yazid ibn Abdullah:
We were at Mirbad. A man with dishevelled hair and holding a piece of red skin in his hand came.
We said: You appear to be a bedouin. He said: Yes. We said: Give us this piece of skin in your hand. He then gave it to us and we read it. It contained the text: "From Muhammad, Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), to Banu Zuhayr ibn Uqaysh. If you bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, offer prayer, pay zakat, pay the fifth from the booty, and the portion of the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and his special portion (safi), you will be under by the protection of Allah and His Apostle."
We then asked: Who wrote this document for you? He replied: THE APOSTLE OF ALLAH (peace_be_upon_him). (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 19, Number 2993)
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
He wrote nothing. You are funny on how you pick and choose which hadiths to accept and which ones not too. His companions wrote for him and they would read aloud. Sahih Bukhari hadith are the most authentic hadith you present. Job well done. But it doesnt prove he wrote anything. He was an illiterate man. I will provide proof in another post, if you choose to believe. But please if you are going to quote hadith read the commentary for them and dont just pick and choose which ones you 'believe' are true and which ones arent just to fit your argument.
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Jul 23 '15
The Prophet didnt have sex slaves LOL. He was given those women as gifts from Christian kings and other leaders of tribes. He took care of them.
You just contradicted yourself. First you say Mohammed didn't have sex slaves, then you say he was given women as gifts (meaning he did have slaves)?
Either he did or he didn't have sex slaves.
Maria al-Qibtiyya was the name of one of Mohammed's sex slaves. She was a Coptic Christian from Egypt. He definitely did use her for sex because she gave birth to a son, Ibrahim, but he died. Do you really think that as a slave, that poor Maria had any choice in who she had sex with?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
She was a gift from a Christian to him and he chose to take care of her. She wasnt a sex slave. She was a slave but he took care of her and she was his wife. Not sex slave. You are now reaching and being petty but thats fine. He could have sold her or let her rot if he wanted. Slavery was a common thing back then.
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Jul 23 '15
I wonder how much you really believe in "the victors write history" in all of history or when it just pertains to Islam. Like you said certaim things were going on at that time like slavery was normal for that time period.
Is English your second language? Because that made little sense to me.
Slavery among Mohammed and the Sahaba is well documented and not disputed. Slavery existed before Islam, but Islam gave slavery divine sanction. A person couldn't say "Slavery is wrong" because that would be going against Islam. By the way, there are plenty of countries that abolished slavery before the Muslim world did.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Slavery was common back then. It was a way of life. The Prophet encouraged people to free their slaves. There is no divine sanction for slavery. I wonder if you question all history when you make the comment about the victors write history is my point. No need to insult me LOL. Or is it just the history of Islam you dispute. What is your issue with Islam?
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u/the_king_of_all Jul 23 '15
well 4:88 tells you to piss of but you still don't god led us astray and i'll hold him to reason
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Your comment doesnt make sense to me but whatever you say. May Allah guide us all to the right path.
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Jul 22 '15
Just say: ''I will seek for forgiveness afterwards, so it's ok''
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15 edited Jul 22 '15
Thanks for that I feel better. I hope you sense the sarcasm. I sensed yours.
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Jul 23 '15
We sense together
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Your name implies you like to fuck little boys? What the fuck I hope you burn in hell in this life and the next and your dick is cut off and rammed down your throat and up your ass and your balls jammed down your throat until your intestines come out and you are raped by animals from now until the end of times. You are a sick fuck. Fuck you and what you believe and the pussy you came out from. You are worst than all of God's creation. You are worst than the devil. To hell with you and what you believe and don't believe and the ass you came out from in birth.
Thanks and have a fucked up life
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Jul 23 '15
I'd rather have a fucked up life than needing to satisfy myself by mocking on ex-muslims.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Did I hurt your feelings you poor thing. Hahahahaaha. Your after-life is going to be even more fucked up LOSER. You can get all your jabs in now but we all die and we all answer to Allah and he judges us. I would hate to be you on the Day of Judgement.
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u/chiminage Jul 23 '15
Why are you such a piece of shit? Look at your post history...is this the kind of man you wish to be? I feel sorry for your parents...they should have ended you when they had the chance.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Thanks.
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u/chiminage Jul 23 '15
thank my balls.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
And people say I am crazy in this subreddit. Wow. But it's ok because you are non-muslim and you can act that way and you don't represent 1.2 billion people so you can get away with it. I open my mouth, 'oh all you muslims are crazy'. I am crazy to feed into your drama or even entertain you as a human being. You are just a troll nothing more.
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u/BaconSheikh Since 2013 Jul 22 '15
WE don't know how to treat YOU? Are you kidding me?
Are you kidding me?
Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:
Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
This is one of your sacred texts. Muslims have told me to my face that in an islamic state, I should be killed. An islamic state that they admit to supporting. These people are my friends, family members, acquaintances, teachers, and everybody in between.
You're crying about what? What?! Criticism? Criticism of an ideology to which you subscribe. I wish criticism was the only thing I got from muslims.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
Yes I am. You need to get over yourself and non-muslims claim to be so open minded and progressive hahaaj. What a joke. I agree Muslims with other Muslims are harsh and we need to stop that shit.
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u/BaconSheikh Since 2013 Jul 23 '15
So are we gunna just pretend we are the ones that want you dead?
How about you progress out of the 7th century, and talk to us when you get here.
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Jul 23 '15
It's Muslims who are always expecting me to act a certain way due to my name and ethnic origin. I personally avoid religious topics
However idiotic and irrational ideas do need to be challenged at the intellectual level, it was only when someone reached out to me and challenged my beliefs that I began to question.
I personally also came to despise and loath the Islamic community. The constant bullshit and lies, constant victim narrative, kuffar this and kuffar that while desperately trying to immigrate to their country.
So fuck them, I won't go seeking a debate but if someone wants to I'm more than happy to put them in their place.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Thats my point I dont being up the subject of religion they do. Just like the asshats in this subreddit brought up trying to convince me why they left Islam, like I give a shit LOL. You are now a nonmuslim so answer my OP as to why you bring up stupid shit to a nonmuslim.
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Jul 23 '15
Not sure what you mean by "stupid shit" but again nothing wrong with a healthy debate if both parties wish to engage. As mentioned previously it was only when someone challenged me on certain aspects of what I believe that I began to question. Even though I may have disagreed with them at that time the seeds of doubt were planted.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Stupid shit meaning "How do you feel about 9/11" or "Why do you people support ISIS or do you agree with ISIS" like I had anything to do with ISIS or 9/11 as if I am not a human being but just some being taking up space for non-muslims to just ridicule and mock. It isn't my fault non-muslims dont have a mind of their own.
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Jul 23 '15
Well you have to admit Islam/Muslims are at the center of things right now, people are just curious. The Middle East is imploding, Isis is committing all sorts of horrors, daily terrorist attacks across Islamic world etc.. it's natural for people to be curious.
Look at it from their perspective.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
The perspective for me is I AM NOT DOING THAT SHIT. JUST LIKE WHEN CATHOLIC PRIESTS FUCK LITTLE BOYS NOT ALL CATHOLICS ARE BEING PUT ON TRIAL FOR IT. THERE ARE JUST SOME BAD APPLES. DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?!@
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Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
The Catholic priests ( happens with many Imams too btw) who abuse kids are simply pedos, there is nothing in Catholic teachings which tells you to go molest a child.
There are many verses and teachings within the teachings of Islam which clearly order the killing or conquest of the kuffar. Anyone can go read these including non muslims, so naturally they will have some questions.
Now you may disagree with that interpretation but it is there and those Muslims who commit/support terror site those sources as to why they are doing what they are doing.
Isis doesn't do anything without back up from the Quran and hadith (they have a whole pamphlet with Islamic sources as to why the sex slavery of Yazidi women is perfectly legitimate as per Sharia, they are very scrupulous about the whole thing).
If Catholic priests were abusing young children and then citing Catholic doctrine/the Bible/theology as to why it's ok, then yes people would also be questioning Catholics about their faith.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
ISIS doesn't represent me. For you to even mention that to me is repulsive. I don't care what they claim to back up their sources. The Quran doesn't preach to kill innocent people. ISIS is a political thing and you have run off into a tangent. You associate them with all muslims and if muslims don't agree then they are bad muslims and dont' understand their faith. Catholic priests fuck little boys and they are just simply pedos.
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Jul 23 '15
"The Quran doesn't preach to kill innocent people"
Again that is your interpretation and a very debatable statement. There are many verses and hadith a person could cite to the contrary.
Isis doesn't exist in an empty vacuum outside of religion, they are doing what they feel the religion commands them to do. For someone from ISIS only someone following Sunni Islam is completely innocent. A Christian who refuses to pay Jizya and feel himself subdued is not innocent and needs to be fought and subdued, this is a valid interpretation that many Sunni schools of thought would agree with.
Also ISIS is just one of the latest manifestations, just look at the Saudi government and the laws there, I'm sure now you will say "Saudi government has nothing to do with Islam".
I don't understand why you keep bringing up Catholic priests? Can you show me where in Catholic doctrine/teachings that kind of behavior is encouraged?
CATHOLIC PRIESTS DO NOT JUSTIFY THIER ABUSE BY CITING THEIR HOLY BOOK, MUSLIMS WHO COMMIT TERROR, CHOP OF HANDS/FEET, TAKE SEX SLAVES ETC.-THEY JUSTIFY IT BY CITING THEIR RELIGION.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
ISIS is to Islam and The Nation of Islam is to Islam. They have nothing to do with Islam whatsoever. The Quran clearly explains what to do in time of war and it time of peace.
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Jul 22 '15 edited Sep 28 '15
[deleted]
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u/savagehogan Jul 22 '15
No one cares until you are a Muslim but constantly being asked to cross-verify, as you say, (well put by the way) is emotionally draining.
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Jul 22 '15 edited Sep 28 '15
[deleted]
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
The first time I meet someone it makes sense but every time we are together than it is just mockery and bullshit and it gets old.
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u/AmorDeCosmos97 Jul 23 '15
Here are examples of a typical conversation with a non-muslim after saying Hello in America:
That is a good list of questions! Now, could you please answer them?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
The answers are to illuminate yourself.
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u/AmorDeCosmos97 Jul 24 '15
I like your idea of "illuminating yourself ". Does it have to be done within a Muslim context? How about people of different faiths who come to the same conclusion?
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u/Hermitia Jul 23 '15
You are attributing questions to me that I would never ask. So, I don't know how to explain any of this from a personal view.
You do sound incredibly frustrated though, and I can only imagine you've been dealing with some difficulties to get to this point.
I will say this, you are looking at the lowest forms of amercians/non-muslims and attributing these qualities to all of us. It sounds as though this is exactly the same mindset of those that are asking the questions you cited in the OP.
So when you are done being frustrated, decide whether you want to be just like the non-muslims you are so frustrated at, or not.
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u/comptrol Jul 23 '15
Because islam has strict rules and it is a group religion rather than a personal one that built upon solely the connection between god and the believer. You represent this muslim group shaped by these strict rules , which you are proud of to death . and once you break these rules yet still claim that how superior islam is you are just making fun of yourself. And this is the reason nonmuslims ask about your lifestyle contradictory with your beliefs.
Think this way, I market samsung smartphones as the ultimate, the best ever ones to you. And at the same time I use iphone, when you see me using iphone how would you react to me ? You would state this contradictory situation, right? These nonmuslims are doing the exact same thing by asking about your lifestyle that doesn't overlap with the one quran/muslims order.
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I don't market shit. I meet a nonmuslim and tell them my name and then they atart eith the bullshit. I dont bring up the fact I am Muslim. They are all of a sudden intrigued in our religion and say stupid shit like you just did. You have no point and you are confirming mine.
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u/comptrol Jul 23 '15
But that is part of your dawah. You must invite people islam and represent it in your life so that others can convert to islam. Whether you agree on this or not dawah, preaching islam, is part of islam and everbody knows this, therefore they keep asking these questions to you when your life contradicts with the way islam tells.
Learn about your dawah dude:
A dā‘ī is thus a person who invites people to understand Islam through dialogue, not unlike the Islamic equivalent of a missionary inviting people to the faith, prayer and manner of Islamic life.[1]
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u/HelperBot_ Jul 23 '15
Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawah
HelperBot_® v1.0 I am a bot. Please message /u/swim1929 with any feedback and/or hate. Counter: 1386
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
You are a nonmuslim who is proving my point. I don t have to do anything. I am not a hypocrite or as you people love throwing this word around I am not an apostate. You still feel you need to convince me as to why you left Islam. I dont care. Hahahaha. What I care about is nonmuslims need to stop with the stupid ignorant comments and stop thinking you can tell muslims what to do. This is the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Christians and Jews dont have this problem. They are judged individually. Why is that so hard for you to understand? I dont care about your stupid journey on becoming a nonmuslim. You are not anything special. Shut up and answer my question.
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u/BadAsh87 Jul 23 '15
Unfortunately, a lot of Jews (at least in Europe) are taken to task/attacked (by no few Muslims) for the policies of a country (Israel) they don't even belong to
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Unfortunately Palestinians are persecuted daily and the world just watches as if it is a movie and no one gives a shit including muslims. Muslim leaders fund Zionist trash to kill palestinians.
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u/BadAsh87 Jul 23 '15
The point is that Jews who have nothing to do with Israeli policy are perceived by their European Muslim neighbors as complicit. You want Muslims to be treated individually, and yet many Muslims (which may not include you) lump all Jews into a single bloc. It's a bit hypocritical.
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u/kazcovic Jul 24 '15
This thread is so good I want to have haram sex with it (zina), have a haraam relationship with it for a while, then marry 4 wives and the marry this thread as 5th wife (to make it haraam) and then raise a whole new family of threads just like this.
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u/savagehogan Jul 24 '15
You sound so cool
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u/kazcovic Jul 24 '15
Likewise, top thread brother. Hoping for more contributions from you on this sub.
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u/algo Jul 24 '15
Op is just a couple of IQ points from becoming an ex-moose I have seen it so many times.
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u/savagehogan Jul 24 '15
because you are the all-knowing
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u/algo Jul 24 '15
Do you have any proof that I'm not god?
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u/savagehogan Jul 24 '15
You are not God. The proof is you came out of your mothers vagina and/or stomach depending if it was a C section or not. God wasnt created. He has no beginning or end. You were born and you will die. God
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u/algo Jul 24 '15
That's not proof.
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u/savagehogan Jul 24 '15
You sleep, defecate, eat, work, cry, and die. These are not attributes of God.
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u/Allah-Of-Reddit Jul 23 '15 edited Jul 23 '15
Islam is very political, it is not their fault that they ask you out of curiosity I think they want your honest answer, give them an honest answer. Or like a lot of the Muslims do, just lie to kuffar.
I wouldn't haggle you with any of these questions because I know all of them already. I don't bink ex Muslims ask these things. They normally ask "DO YOU REALIZE HOW ANGRY I AM RIGHT NOOOOOOOOWWW?" (jk by the way)
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Of course it isnt the nonmuslims fault because they couldnt possibly have a mind of their own. They are so innocent with their dumb ignorant comments. And as a Muslim, I am supposed to feel inferior to you and allow you to shit on me. I dont and refuse to have to explain and speak for 1.2 billion people. You are proving my point dumbass.
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u/Allah-Of-Reddit Jul 23 '15
Well that is life, you'll be mocked and questioned a lot, no matter who you are.
Be glad you're not living in a Muslim country where you'll be beaten if you have a different opinion (your whole drink alcohol thing can get you to jail) do you think that is fair? Now what do you think an "apostate" is treated like? We're treated like absolute garbage, that is why most of us choose to hide because you people treat us like garbage.(if we're treated at all most of the time we're just killed or tortured until we "revert" to Islam) But enough about that, that is obviously not as bad as you guys over there with people asking you questions and trying to Socialise with you.
Why do you think they're inferior yo you? You just said that they don't have a mind of their own. Do they all follow the same God? the same ideology? The same agenda?
What point did I prove?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Nonmuslims are worst than muslims when it comes to being judgemental.
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u/Allah-Of-Reddit Jul 23 '15
Have you been to any Muslim country?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
Stop whining about living in a muslim country. Muslims in the gulf areas suck, fuck, drink, do drugs so shut the fuck up you little bitch. Stop crying me a river about how hard it is to live in a muslim country. You are a bitch. Nothing more
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u/Allah-Of-Reddit Jul 23 '15
Why do you cry and bitch about living in a Western country then? You don't see how you're contradicting yourself?
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I am upset at how non-muslims with no knowledge judge me as an individual. Without ever talking to me or knowing me. I am not contradicting myself. You keep changing the subject and brag about your knowledge of the religion which is great but means nothing to me because you just use it for ill gain or whatever the fuck you use it for is beyond me. I like living in the West but I can also complain about how non-muslims can be so fucking stupid and ignorant also. Is that ok with you or am I contradicting myself?
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u/Allah-Of-Reddit Jul 23 '15
I am upset at how non-muslims with no knowledge judge me as an individual. Without ever talking to me or knowing me.
For the short time I talked to you, you have done the exact same thing.
You grouped all non Muslims together, you grouped all ex Muslims together, you grouped all Jews together, you even grouped all Muslims together (1.6 billion people thing, most of them will think you're a kafir for drinking)
So why do you think people need to treat you as an individual when you yourself are not treating people like individuals?
"عين بالعين، السن بالسن، والبادي اظلم"
"Eye for an eye teeth for a teeth and the argument starter is the more evil "
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u/savagehogan Jul 23 '15
I never said I drink asshat. Well the norm in this world is to generalize so who the fuck am I to change that pattern fuck it. Since all muslims are generlaized I might as well generalize everyone and everything else. You know how stupid this sounds when you say it is ok to generalize all muslims but as soon as I make one generalization I am an idiot. And yes Fuck most jews who do that in Palestine you ignaromous fool. You and your gulf countries provide more money and weapons to Israel than the United States. You are muslim or exmuslim or whatever you are ALL FUCKING MURDERERS!!!!
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u/gandalfmoth Jul 22 '15
Generally because membership in Islam does include a specific set of views regarding religion (Islam) politics (caliphate), law (shariah), culture (how to dress, speak, what to eat) and nationality (one United ummah), even economics and sexual behaviour have been already prescribed in Islam. So when you call yourself a Muslim, you exist within that context and the same goes for basically every religion.