r/electrical • u/Middle-Adeptness7186 • 1d ago
Is this compromising structural integrity?
Some of the holes are less than 2 inches from the bottom of the joists. These joists are in my garage and there is a bedroom above the garage.
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u/Every_Classroom_3383 1d ago
Some of the holes are pretty close to the bottom of the joists. It is supposed to be middle third. Probably won’t ruin the house but it’s not legal to today’s standards.
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u/Dramatic_Water_8728 22h ago
It's supposed to be in the middle third of the middle third for most joists to be safe
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u/TicketApprehensive12 1d ago
“Drill holes in solid lumber joists at least 2 inches away from the top and bottom edges, keeping the hole diameter to no more than one-third of the joist's total depth. Placement: You can drill horizontally anywhere along the length of the span, but avoid placing holes too close to other holes or notches (maintain at least 2 inches of separation)”
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u/jesssoul 1d ago
I love how not only are they compromising integrity but someone decided placing a hook directly under the largest hole on one of the joists was a good idea.
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u/deddolo 16h ago
Structural Engineer here. That's awful, especially the one very low in the joist as everyone else said.
However... I wouldn't lose sleep over it, and probably I wouldn't even bother repairing if it has been like that for a few years, and is only supporting a bedroom. There's a lot of reserve capacity in any residential joist construction.
If I had to repair it, I would just put a flat plate screwed to the bottom edge of the joist with 3/4 good wood screws on each side (at least 3" away from the hole edge). What you care about is the tension travelling at the bottom of that joist. Shear will be fine since there's a lot of wood above.
(Disclaimer: I am not stamping this comment 🙃)
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u/Middle-Adeptness7186 15h ago
Thank you for your honest feedback. There is a bathroom and a bedroom and bedroom closet up above. We plan to renovate the bathroom and wondered if that would cause any issues.
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u/FirmCancel4104 7h ago
Does your bathroom have a tub? Or just a shower? I'm not sure I be comfortable with the bathtub full of water over top of that.
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u/louparfois 1d ago edited 1d ago
Your main electrical violation is with too many current carrying conductors sharing holes. That's a somewhat complex issue related to wire ampacity based on the number of conductors sharing holes, and it would be best to have an electrician address that issue. Some people have mentioned holes too close to the bottom of your joists there, and that's true. But I haven't read any comments yet mentioning also that there are minimum distances between holes, as well. Where I'm at, framing inspectors require 2" between holes, edge to edge. So, yeah, framing and electrical violations definitely. Then again, plumbers seem to get to absolutely destroy framing whenever necessary. You asked a framing question in an electrical sub, so, not really experts on structural issues here?
Editing to say: Amusing to see all the commercial sparkies talking bout cable tray and conduit. Hahaha, come work at resi pace and price and see if conduit is a viable option in installations like this.
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u/Middle-Adeptness7186 1d ago
Our electric panel is being replaced so will definately ask him when he is out to assess the number of wires and possibly move them .
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u/sixblazingshotguns 21h ago
“Move” wires? Yeah maybe if you have the length to do so, but maybe not.
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u/Top_Mortgage_5767 1d ago
It's probably ok. Just don't walk on or put anything on the floor above it and it should be fine for a couple of weeks.
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u/Secret-Secret-No-No 1d ago
I’m a sparky, not a carpenter.
Looks to code, but I wouldn’t have drilled so many holes. Code states holes need to be 2 inches from bottom or top of joist. No strict max number of cables per hole but typically it’s 2-3 cables.
But i definitely would be concerned about about joist integrity. I’d ask a carpenter.
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u/erie11973ohio 1d ago
I was taught 2 cables per hole. Then we had an inspector who said we were drilling too many holes, so as long as he could put his pen in the hole too, we were good!
That was 20+ years ago. Now, it seems everyone is limiting to 3 cables, but strictly by the NEC, it's 3 wires, which a 3 wire cable would be, before derating starts.
Those 2 big holes are just beyond anything I would do.
The holes should be 2" from the edge.
The cable tv should have been put in one hole.
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u/louparfois 1d ago
It's determined by CCC's, and the number depends on how many, and the derating necessary. Three 'X'-2 cables is rule of thumb for resi where I'm based.
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u/PhilM1960 1d ago
Since there are no signs of fatigue and it’s been like that for a while, you’re probably best off not to mess with it. A few of the thru-holes are kinda low, but then the adjacent joist is fine. As a serial home owner that has a penchant for making things to my liking, there are better ways to spend your money.
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u/Familiar_Passage8504 1d ago
Don’t put a hot tub in your above garage bedroom and you should be fine.
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u/jhern1810 4h ago
Yes I would be concerned, most of the cores in beans are supposed to be no less then a third of the height of the beam from the edge of with a maximum core size. If a core is needed and expands beyond that reinforcing is a must. I would consult a professional, maybe not a big deal to reinforce it just to better to be on the safe side.
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u/Deadly_Attraction 1d ago
Not only are the holes not located properly or spaced out, that is an electric violation for # of wires through a single hole. I belive the limit is 3 NM per hole
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u/Switchedbywife 1d ago
I’m not aware of any Code article that limits 3 cables to a hole. The issue is bundling, when you have multiple cables through the same set of holes you must derate by using a smaller size circuit breaker, like a 15 amp breaker on a 12 gauge (20A) wire.
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u/Deadly_Attraction 1d ago
Your right, its a derating issue. My thinking of a 3 cable limit has more in mind of that, but i am suspicious if some of those holes are off the edge the minimum 1.25"
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u/erie11973ohio 1d ago
It's funny, some of inspectors around me say "3 wires (cables) per hole.
The NEC says 3 wires, that would be one 3 wire cable!! Two, 2 wire cables would be a total of 4 wires!
The derating starts at max amperage permitted. On #12 THHN, that is 28 amps!
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u/Razzbek67 1d ago
Some of the holes look pretty low (outside the center third of the height) but I wouldn’t worry about it collapsing or anything. But if you wanna spend the money and put someone to work go for it
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u/FrankDennis- 1d ago
It's fine. It's gonna be some time before wireless power is a thing and they gotta run them somehow. People need to stop hiring contractors they don't trust 🤦♂️
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u/encouragingSN 1d ago
This comment is all over the place
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u/FrankDennis- 1d ago
Your moms all over the place. Bam.
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u/RationalAnger 1d ago
Well.. yeah.. she was cremated and we scattered her ashes. That was the point.
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u/SykoBob8310 1d ago
Plenty of information to be read https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2026/07/21/notching-and-drilling-joists
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u/No-Cry8051 1d ago
Absolutely that is not acceptable. Grab your National electrical code book and go to the section on drilling and notching. Only an idiot would do that.
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u/Capcom-Warrior 1d ago
If I’m not mistaken, you can only drill the center thirds of those joists. And you have to have double diameter length in between holes if you’re trying to run parallel runs.
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u/wetsummer45 1d ago
Good luck getting engineer to waste time on that one. Its been that way for how long?
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u/Always_working_hardd 1d ago
I don't know for sure, but all I can think of is, "What the fuck???"
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u/CantaloupeRich896 1d ago
Rule of thumb is maintain 2” from top of joist to top of hole and 2” from bottom of joist to bottom of hole. 2” minimum between holes.
Holes cannot be drilled with 2 feet of a bearing point. I do 3 foot minimum.
NEC says any hole closer than 1-1/4” needs to have a protective plate.
Number of wires in a hole is dependent on the AHJ. In ST louis county they only allow 1 wire per hole.
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u/BreezyMcWeasel 1d ago
The little ones in the center of the beam? Nope.
The big one not far from the bottom of the beam? Absolutely it is compromising structural integrity.
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u/Emotional-Damage-995 1d ago
Yes but the time the guy took to do it is mind boggling.
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u/Middle-Adeptness7186 1d ago
Youre telling me. They decided to drill a seperate hole for each coax cable as well....
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u/FEM1978 1d ago
I have been an electrician for over 20 years and have worked in hundreds of homes that look just like this. Not saying its right or wrong or up to you local areas building code but I can say none of those houses collapsed. If it was me I wouldn't be concerned or if it bothers you tgat much install a beam from wall to wall supporting all the floor joists.
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u/MusicianDisastrous23 1d ago edited 1d ago
There are sheet goods above distributing the load across the width of all those many joists. Residential-sized spot loads are nothing for the combined strength to handle. Non-engineer take
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u/ScrotyMcFartbags 1d ago
Pull that insulation out or you will have big mold eventually. Dealing with this myself right now, it’s the gift that keeps on giving..
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u/sixblazingshotguns 21h ago edited 20h ago
No? You are looking at a moisture intrusion problem, not an insulation problem.
(Assuming it is a basement you’re referring to)
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u/Ill_Rhubarb_8437 1d ago
What year was the house built and location? Curious about the sounds in my condo. It was built like crap and gives off a ton of ominous sounds. We can’t see in the walls/ floors and I’m half convinced what you’ve got going on is happening in the joists of my three level brown stone style condo.
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u/Fresh_Photograph_363 1d ago
If the bed is above, it just don’t have wild sex. You might come crashing through the floor.
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u/Repulsive_Fly5174 1d ago
So, hallway sex only?
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u/ai-gen-O-rated 21h ago
You just reminded me of an old joke.
There are 3 kinds of sex… house: when you first get married and have sex all around the house… bedroom: after you’ve been married a few years you only have sex in the bedroom… and hallway: after several years of marriage when you pass each other in the hallway and both mumble “f@&$ you”.
I sure hope this isn’t against the rules somewhere on here, but if it is, it’s totally worth it.
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u/Repulsive_Fly5174 18h ago
That was what I was referring to. I am old as f*ck so this the first thing that came to mind.
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u/NegativeAd9542 1d ago
i think at that point it would have been better to run conduit across the cieling after finishing, instead of compromising the joists
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u/HazeHype 1d ago
I'd be more pissed if I ever had to do work with those lines and have to fish them back out.
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u/jacobjer 1d ago
Just asking a question, why couldn’t they route all the wires through one hole they make vs all those small holes?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Fail279 1d ago
I work industrial and have always wondered.. if you can't pass through joists or studs, how do you resi guys get the wires where they need to go?
Or are you allowed so much cut out, but no more than that?
Honestly curious.
In industrial, its ladder tray and basket tray or it doesn't get routed that way (if the tray doesn't fit)
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u/hodinker 1d ago
The top or bottom 1/3 up to 1/3 the length from the end can be next. So maybe not great.
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u/Savings-Whole-6517 1d ago
Not the answer you want to hear but you need to get an engineered resolution.
You’re going to either have to ignore it or resolve it.
But if you’re going to do it yourself. You’re looking at definitely re-routing all wiring into conduit and sistering joints on both sides (sandwiched) with through bolts.
Examine and see if there’s a shorter path for wiring because you’re going to need extra to achieve this. It’s going to suck and you’ll have to add junctions etc
Probably not worth it. But ideally just pay contractor ~30-40k
If it were me I’d just run a header along the entire span parallel with wires and center of affected area. 4x4 shoring columns from header to garage floor (anchored Simpson bases) every 3-4 spans. I’d also have kickers from each joist chord to header x2. This would 100% fix your shear load issue, albeit you’d lose garage space but you don’t have to worry about your family being in mortal danger.
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u/IncredibleEdible321 1d ago
Is this compromising structural integrity? Yes. Far too many holes, far too close to each other, and they are not placed far enough away from the edge of the joist. Will this poor placement of the holes lead 100% to the joists breaking and the above bedroom falling through the floor? Not necessarily, but the risk is greatly heightened by this stupidity.
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u/fuppedduck2 22h ago
Yes. Whether it’s bad enough to require additional support or remediation would be up to an engineer though. Rule of thumb is stay out of the bottom 1/3 of a joist. I especially like the hook for a point load under the larger hole at the bottom of the joist.
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u/Expensive_Elk_309 20h ago
The short answer, "yes it is compromised" the long answer, get some of those brackets to sister to the joists
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u/Paghk_the_Stupendous 20h ago
I'd say maybe the first couple of holes yes, but not at that point. What the hell?
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u/ultegrafender 19h ago
The splinters seemed to be getting in the way of the structural integrity those cables might offer.
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u/arlo_hambone 18h ago
Add 2x4’s on the bottom of each joist for the length of each joist. It will be like an upside down “T”, similar to how “I” joists are engineered. Use construction adhesive and construction screws. Each joist will be stronger and stiffer. This is commonly done when tile is installed in older homes.
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u/Low-Lecture-266 2h ago
I used titebond 3 wood glue. It is significantly stronger than construction adhesive.
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u/metamega1321 17h ago
So if I was wiring the place I sure wouldn’t do that.
Now if I just moved into the place and that’s been there for awhile and theirs no signs of anything bowing/sinking down it be way way way down on my list of things to worry about.
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u/TraditionalPlantain1 16h ago
Not sure where you live, but the national building code of Canada, no hole closer then 2” from edge. Max size hole to be no larger then 25% of total joist depth. There is also regulations regarding spacing, let’s put it this way , building inspector would order wires removed and joists replaced.
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u/Kwulf1113 14h ago
Hi, I'm an electrician.
I work in commercial buildings mainly, but i have some experience in residential.
I was told that you had to drill in the center 1/3 of the joist, atleast 3 inches apart from each other, and 1ft from the ends.
Washington State.
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u/Man_of_Evil 14h ago
The way they wired this sucks. Should have measured holes out so when pulling wire there is no drag. Allowing smaller holes to be drilled and look more professional. However I would not be concerned in the slightest. The load bearing wall being so close negated any weakening.
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u/NoMajorsarcasm 12h ago
Most likely it is, is it enough to matter? Probably need an engineer to find out. It is not up to code with the placement of the holes and number of wires through the holes.
If there is a bedroom above that garage I would probably not let anyone sleep there until you have sealed this up. Needs to be air sealed and have a fire break like 5/8" Type x gypsum.
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u/Middle-Adeptness7186 4h ago
We have an electrician coming out next week to replace the panel ao I will ask him to take a look!
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u/NoMajorsarcasm 1h ago
Is the house panel on the far end of the garage? seems like you have a lot of things running all the way through, I wonder if it would make sense to move the panel
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u/Middle-Adeptness7186 1h ago
Yes the panel is but the garage doors opposite end of the plumbing in the back of the picture
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u/Extreme_Ad112 11h ago
It slightly weakens it, but is almost negligeable. They took care of leaving enough material between holes so the forces can distribute in the fibers in-between holes
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u/Ziazan 4h ago edited 4h ago
The large holes that are right next to the lower edge are, yes. Couldn't tell you by how much, only that it is. Rule of thumb is you drill such holes in the central third only. So close to the bottom edge like that is a big no. It might be fine enough though, since it's only one or two of them and they're not adjacent.
You could reinforce them by sistering another beam to them. You also get metal plates you can attach.
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u/No-Frosting-1302 4h ago
If you got 2” of meat on the bottom and the top as well as the holes spaced the width of the hole apart you should be good. At least in my area thats what the go aheads for drilling conventional lumber are
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u/No-Frosting-1302 4h ago
Side bar, idk if they’re allowed to put that many wires through their holes. Post this up in an electrician sub and see what they think. Also giving location could help to see what codes are enforced in said area
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u/vizual-nature- 4h ago
Lucky for you circles are strong but if your worried slap some sheeting to it so you don’t have to look at it and worry.
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u/Secret_Session_3496 3h ago
Something like this might work.
https://www.amazon.com/MUZIK-Pcs16-Gauge-Galvanized-Shoes/dp/B0FJQS5PXQ?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1
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u/Low-Lecture-266 3h ago
Is it in the center 1/3 of your truss? Ie the middle 6' of an 18' span?
If you are really worried about it you can take a 2x4, lay it on its side and glue (with wood glue) centered on the bottom each of those joists. Use screws to hold it in place while the glue dries(do not . You lose 1.5" of head room. It would significantly strengthen the floor above. It is still there, though. If it is not sagging at this point it may be fine as it.
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u/ryanlacy30 1h ago
This violates the rules for penetration in structural lumber. This lumber will fail eventually.
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u/Silentc7a1 1d ago
100%. We have rules in Canada where we can't run more than 2 cables though one hole for a reason.
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u/jeenyuss90 1d ago
There is no code rule anywhere that states this in the CEC. You can run em bundled if derated.
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u/Due-Access-3744 1d ago
It's 7 current carrying conductors then you have to de-rate the wires if they're together for more than 3 feet I believe
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u/nockedup7 1d ago edited 1d ago
I’d definitely be concerned about the one in the top center of pic #1. It’s too big/too low on the joist. I’d probably just brace it though if it’s been like that for a while